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Forums > Beginner Poi Moves > proper behind the back butterfly waistwrap (btb bf ww)

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coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay

Total posts: 7330
Posted:mentioned this a little while back here but am posting more about it now because of a certain princess i know getting as close to nailing it as anyone i've seen.

ubblove



its a ridiculously hard move to maintain plane control through but if mastered, it would look truly beautiful...



so, the standard bf ww that most people do is based on opposite direction, same-time reels.

one hand spins the btb waistwrap circle followed by a carry which fits it perfectly into the reels.

i adore it; it looks great, feels effortless and has tonnes of gorgeous variations.



but it isn't a real bf ww... smile



if you take a standard btb waistwrap and reverse the direction that one of the poi is spinning in, you get a butterfly waistwrap.



that move, spun same-time is the killer.



an example (there are 4 basic versions although they come in pairs that are almost identical) of it broken down would be:



1 beat of a bf on right side - left hand btb ww position on right, right hand at right side. [both poi in front wall plane]

1 beat of btb bf. [both poi in behind wall plane]

1 beat of a bf on left side - right hand in btb ww position on left, left hand at left side. [both poi in front wall plane]

simultaneous top and bottom carries back to start position. [both poi in behind wall plane]



spun correctly, hands should remain together for the whole move - there should be no splitting of beats front and back like in the reel based versions.

it seems it can be forced through one cycle okay but maintaining the pattern becomes very tricky, very fast for me.



hope this makes sense to some of youse ubbangel

if you don't know what a waistwrap is, hit that search button and if you're still not sure whats going on here, check out some threads on butterfly weaves, looking out for discussions on spinning them same-time and btb.





if anyone ever gets this move with completely solid timing and clean planes, could you please make a video with it on fire and send it to me to worship and drool over please?





[that's if me bammy doesn't beat ya to it of course... wink ]


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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spiralx


spiralx

veteran
Location: London, UK

Total posts: 1376
Posted:So you're talking about a proper BTB BF WW? (So many acronyms! ubblol)



As opposed to a BF "full WW"? i.e. the one that goes in front and behind?



I had wondered whether what we've all called a BF WW was properly one before, this has cleared that up at least... now to try and actually do it! Does sound tricky...



Edited to add... maybe the others should better be called BF reel wraps?

EDITED_BY: spiralx (1091799244)


"Moo," said the happy cow.

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coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay

Total posts: 7330
Posted:good point man - that 'full' bit confuses things a little so i'll go cahnge that now.

a full bf ww would be mental - i hadn't even considered that monstrosity!


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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spiralx


spiralx

veteran
Location: London, UK

Total posts: 1376
Posted:Yes, I've seen you do the normal full WW and it looks like a world of confusion... let alone with them going opposite direction.

*ponders it in split time*

umm help eek


"Moo," said the happy cow.

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Dragon7
GOLD Member since Oct 2003

Dragon7

addict
Location: Aotearoa (NZ)

Total posts: 625
Posted:Dont you mean btb ttn ww?

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spiralx


spiralx

veteran
Location: London, UK

Total posts: 1376
Posted:There's no TTN motion in this move...

"Moo," said the happy cow.

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coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay

Total posts: 7330
Posted:Written by: Dragon7


Dont you mean btb ttn ww?





probably wink



everything that has opposite direction poi i call 'butterfly', even though nearly every 'hands together' bf based move requires a ttn somewhere.



here it seems the ttn motion is required during the btb bf beat and again on the same beat as the carries (which confuses me a lot).



have ya tried it...?


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay

Total posts: 7330
Posted:spiral - thinking about how bth bf works, you may be able to get away with no ttn's at all by turning your hands upside down for the btb bit.



hmmm - but this would cause a problem though as one hand is naturally on top on one side and the other hand needs to be when you get to the other side.



failing to do the ttn's and swap which hand is on top (i say 'hand on top' as its easy to relate to but it really refers to which poi is marginally leading) is what casues tangles on the transitions front to back and vice-versa.



to stop the tangles and still not have to ttn you would need to have your hands or wrists crossed when spinning the bf on one of the sides (preferably the side you start on so you don't have to do the carries with crossed hands!).



imho it would look messier and wouldn't be possible at all in split-time without the ttn's.


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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duballstar
SILVER Member since Sep 2003

duballstar

slack rating - 9.5
Location: Suburbiton, Yoo-Kay

Total posts: 2216
Posted:i had a go at working this out after spiralx first told me about butterfly waist wraps. since then i've left it well alone. might be time to have another crack now you mention it tho.... umm

It is our fantasies that make us real. Without our fantasies we're just a blank monkey' - Terry Pratchett

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arashi


arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx

Total posts: 2363
Posted:oops accidentally posted in the wrong thread sorry



(you'll get them cole)

EDITED_BY: arashi (1091823686)


-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

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Pyrolific
BRONZE Member since Jan 2001

Returning to a unique state of Equilibrium
Location: Adelaide, South Australia

Total posts: 3288
Posted:um does the hand which is not doing the BTB go on the outside of the bfly? and then after the BTB carry to the other side, That sides non btb hand is on the outside? if so - I do these with clubs. I think PK called them outsides? also - Ow can do another variation.

Josh


--
Help! My personality got stuck in this signature machine and I cant get it out!

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UCOF
SILVER Member since Apr 2002

UCOF

Carpal \'Tunnel


Total posts: 15414
Posted:I can ww TTN.

I can show you Cole if you would like...perhaps you could use it in your plans for world dom-in-a-tion.


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coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay

Total posts: 7330
Posted:jonny - i can ww tnn and btb ttn but doing it during the carries is the problem... frown

we play soon juggle weavesmiley juggle



josh - yeah, they're the ones but there are a few types - these are the ones that have proper butterflies i.e. both poi/clubs are always in the same plane as each other, either in btb ww position or both btb.

if you can go from a btb ww bf on your left to btb ww bf on right in one beat you can do these smile



dub - definitely work on it man! biggrin

you can show it me next time i see ya wink hug



arashi - i'm not so sure i'll get them frown

if i could put me balls down for two minutes i might get a bit closer but i don't see it happening... wink juggle hug


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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jaero
SILVER Member since Jun 2004

jaero

your new best enemy
Location: over the river, through the wo...

Total posts: 246
Posted:I've always been a little confused about the "btb bf" how the hell do you do it? behind your back or behind your head? i can do it behind my head no problem but I've never even heard anyone mention it... unless that is the btb.... please? cure my confusion?

I'll get there too late if I shorten my stride, I'll get there too soon if I find me a ride, I'll never move forward if I try to hide this path that I've troden one step at a time.

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spiralx


spiralx

veteran
Location: London, UK

Total posts: 1376
Posted:Right, I started having a play with this at the weekend and then got distracted by something related. The "not real" BTB BF thingy mentioned by cole at the start of his thread - try doing it in from in front rather than BTB i.e. so one poi crosses at the front and does a circle in the rear wall plane at the opposite hip.

It's surprisingly tricky in terms of getting planes and timing right and feels fairly unnatural for quite a while. But I think there's potential there for more stuff, especially when you go from doing that straight into the BTB version by going around the body.


"Moo," said the happy cow.

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NYC


NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA

Total posts: 9232
Posted:Written by: coleman

a certain princess i know getting as close to nailing



Hey... leave your exploits to the social section. And keep trying... you'll nail her sooner or later. wink


Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

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BamBam


BamBam

Pooh-Bah
Location: London

Total posts: 1810
Posted:Ok I managed to get the move last night biggrin then when I went for it again this morning I hit myself............ollocks!!!!!

Cole I might need to borow your "watching Bammy from behind skills please" biggrineek I'm sure you'll be willing to help a Princess in poi distress wink

Bammy
ubbrollsmile


A kiss blown is a kiss wasted, the only kind of kiss is a kiss tasted.

I'm a woman. We don't say what we want, but we reserve the right to be pissed off if we don't get it. That's what makes us so fascinating and not just a LITTLE bit scary.

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NYC


NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA

Total posts: 9232
Posted:So I guess some might say...

You nailed it? wink


Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

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bluecat


bluecat

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Location: everywhere

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Posted:Written by: BamBam

Ok I managed to get the move last night biggrin then when I went for it again this morning I hit myself............ollocks!!!!!

Cole I might need to borow your "watching Bammy from behind skills please" biggrineek I'm sure you'll be willing to help a Princess in poi distress wink

Bammy
ubbrollsmile



watching Bammy from behind....?

rolleyes
ubbangel


Holistic Spinner (I hope)

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NYC


NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA

Total posts: 9232
Posted:Written by: bluecat

watching Bammy from behind....?

rolleyes
ubbangel



I can't really visualize this... can someone please post a video?

Much appreciated.

ubbangel


Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

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coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay

Total posts: 7330
Posted:princess, you know you got me ubbrollsmile you can borrow any of my 'skills' whenever you like ubbangel



now nyc, who the hell told you about that video?!!???!

you can have a copy but i warn ya, i block the view for a lot of the time... spank wink


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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NYC


NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA

Total posts: 9232
Posted:Written by: coleman

now nyc, who the hell told you about that video?!!???!
you can have a copy but i warn ya, i block the view for a lot of the time... spank wink



Is that because you're so big?

I heard that movie theaters sell popcorn now in 'small' 'medium' 'large' and 'Coleman's ****' wink


Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

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BamBam


BamBam

Pooh-Bah
Location: London

Total posts: 1810
Posted:wink redface biggrin

hehehe yep


A kiss blown is a kiss wasted, the only kind of kiss is a kiss tasted.

I'm a woman. We don't say what we want, but we reserve the right to be pissed off if we don't get it. That's what makes us so fascinating and not just a LITTLE bit scary.

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NYC


NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA

Total posts: 9232
Posted:*Runs away as the first 5 things that popped into my head were far too inappropriate.*

Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

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BamBam


BamBam

Pooh-Bah
Location: London

Total posts: 1810
Posted:LOL..... biggrin
EDITED_BY: BamBam (1092072153)


A kiss blown is a kiss wasted, the only kind of kiss is a kiss tasted.

I'm a woman. We don't say what we want, but we reserve the right to be pissed off if we don't get it. That's what makes us so fascinating and not just a LITTLE bit scary.

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coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay

Total posts: 7330
Posted:ubblol

i would say something about poi but for some reason i can't think straight right now... redface wink


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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MikeIcon
GOLD Member since Mar 2003

MikeIcon

Pooh-Bah
Location: Philadelphia, PA - USA

Total posts: 2109
Posted:If ya think thats hard, try it split time!

As for a full WW's are you talking about when both arms are waste wrapped at the same time? If so, I can do them in front, but not in back yet. Its tough cuz since one arm has to always be crossed on top of the other, you need to be really flexible to get the top one to do the beat in front. I can ALMOST get these in chase mode, butterfly I havent even attempted yet. I know one of the TT boys did the full BTB WW chase in the TT1 vid. Once I get the chase down, Ill work on the BF one.


Let's turn those old bridges we crossed into ashes.
We'll blaze a new trail,
and torch the rough patches.

-Me

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Rev
BRONZE Member since Mar 2003

Rev

Bastard Newbie Messiah
Location: Apparently lost in my ego

Total posts: 1269
Posted:Written by: ICoN

I know one of the TT boys did the full BTB WW chase in the TT1 vid.




I didnt see the first one but it sounds like something ditty would do...


More useless information courtesy of Rev...
Confusing the masses, one post at a time...
"Obviously, you're not a golfer.."- The Dude
"Buy the ticket... Take the ride..." -Raoul Duke
"FEMA has never done catastrophe planning..."-Michael Brown

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arashi


arashi

Pooh-Bah
Location: austin,tx

Total posts: 2363
Posted:getting this move is NOT a matter of flexibility per se. it's in the timing, and the pivot. the posture and flexibility keep you from hurting yourself.

-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.

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Ariad


member


Total posts: 66
Posted:What is a waistwrap?

I can do bf btb both directions, and to do it in a few forms, mabe I know it but not in that name.

And please dont use "high" language in the explanation, my English is not very good :P


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Dragon7
GOLD Member since Oct 2003

Dragon7

addict
Location: Aotearoa (NZ)

Total posts: 625
Posted:A waist wrap is when, if your doing poi in front of you, the poi are btb. If the hands are btb, then the poi is in front. "btb in the front wall plane" arashi once told me.

Arashi, you must be SICK man, i call a 6bt btb waist wrap one of the hardest moves as flex goes! And im pretty sure the move being discussed here is exactly the same hand position...just in b-fly. Btb ww ttn = 6bt btb ww weave.


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