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Hanz


Hanz

veteran
Location: Bendigo, Vic, Australia

Total posts: 1328
Posted:Tonight I went to Venturers, which is the thing which got me into Fire Twirling, to have one of the guys walk up to me and show me the latest Scouts Australia magazine, I only got to read one line, but that was enough for me, it read "Fire Twirlers, please note, Fire Twirling is not a Scout Association approved activity," and then some other stuff, which now means that Fire Twirling at any Venturer activity is banned... why? Insurance, they cant afford to have someone sue them if they get burnt, but if you get badly burnt enough to sue someone, you mustnt have been doing something correct.
One of the reasons, possibly the main reason they have taken it away from us is that the association doesnt have training for it to make it safe, and there arent enough people to keep an eye on it to make sure it is safe.

So now I have the problem of having a major Venturer activity coming up and we are not allowed to Fire Twirl, which takes away our night time activity... and the fact that it will take away friendships, if you see someone twirling and your a twirler, you go up and say hi, you have something in common... why not?

Then there is the fact that you are probably safer Fire Twirling, then you are going hiking with a group of 4 16 year olds... but thats allowed.

I guess the main reason why I am annoyed is that they have banned the fire now that I am confident enough to experiment with fire... and where else am I able to twirl? I dont have my own equipment, I borrow from friends at Venturer activities when they are on staff... and I cant afford my own gear yet.

Anyway, I am going to stop now... sorry guys, I just had to vent, and who else do I know who would understand how I feel about this?


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kermit


kermit

overlord and maggot king
Location: heathmont, victoria, australia

Total posts: 171
Posted:your tasmanian, you dont count, different country

welcome back to kermits mad land.


wont you join my teaparty.

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:Hey, at least your Scouting program hasn't banned gays. rolleyes

-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Kinudin (Soul Fyre)


veteran
Location: San Diego, California, USA

Total posts: 1325
Posted:Written by: It's...LIGHTNING!

Hey, at least your Scouting program hasn't banned gays. rolleyes



Yes it has censored hug


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kermit


kermit

overlord and maggot king
Location: heathmont, victoria, australia

Total posts: 171
Posted:ok, well were not that extreme, gays are accepted into scouts, we dont care about sexual preferences, were all venturers and scouts, no matter what your ideals may be

welcome back to kermits mad land.


wont you join my teaparty.

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Mand
SILVER Member since Oct 2003

Mand

Keeper of the Spitfire
Location: Calgary Canada

Total posts: 2317
Posted:Hey guys, Im sorry to hear that youve had fire spinning banned, but please just stop, calm down, and try to see it from their point of view.
Compared to other things that you do, it is a fairly risky activiy. Both PIPeR and Orange Bobo compare it to activities such as canyoning, caving, rafting and climbing, but these activities are just not comparable.

Written by:
The rumor is that it has been banned because of insurance reasons. If this is the case then I dont see much hope for any of the activities that scouting promotes, such as canyoning, caving, white water rafting, rock climbing anything of an adventurous nature. They all carry a certain risk, but that doesn't mean that they should all be banned.



They do all carry a certain risk, but all of the activities you have mentioned have a governing body, which sets out perimeters that must be followed.
For example, rock climbing- the governing body for climbing and mountaineering will state what qualifications your instructor needs, depending on where youre climbing. That instructor is then responsible for everything- checking the ropes, harnesses, correct belaying, etc.
If an accident happens, its not the scouting association who is going to get sued, because theyre using the correct qualified people.
I work as a river guide and outdoor activity instructor. Believe me, us and our governing bodies do everything possible to make sure these activities are safe for companys clients.
Whilst the outdoor activities can be dangerous, they are made safer (especially insurance wise) because of the rules laid down by the governing bodies of the sport.

Fire spinning on the other hand, as you are well aware, doesnt have a governing body.
Whilst you are with the ventures- be it at an event or camp or wherever, whether you like it or not they are in loco parentis of you if you are under 18. So they are ultimately responsible for you and what happens to you.

So you might be a very good, very safe spinner.
But what about the person next to you?
What about the person who says theyve been spinning for ages, but in reality has only smacked themselves in the legs a couple of times with practice poi or never even tried it before?
Although it would be you guys that would get burned if anything goes wrong, it would be the leaders and the scouting association that would get the blame.

So you cant spin at Ventures anymore is it really the end of the world?
Im sure there are lots of people on this board who have been banned from spinning at their local place. Local councils tend not to like us as much as Venture leaders! wink
You say you cant spin outside of Ventures because you cant afford fire toys? So save up some money. Get a part time job for a while. A fairly basic set of fire poi doesnt cost that much.
And if you spin staff then make one. (pm me if you need instructions of how).

Oh, and a final thing comments such as
Written by:
hanz, we have to get together, go to VG and im organising a mass fire twirl they cant stiop us they cant find out, we need everyone. NO-ONE will stop us. look for the goths and ask for kermit. You have to go. its gonna be massive.



really arent going to help youre cause.
If theyre telling you not to do it, and you do it anyway, its just going to make them more determined to ban you.
In the meantime, have fun spinning glowy things and tails.

climbs down from soapbox
soapbox


Lets steal a spaceship and head for the sun, and shoot the stars with a lemonade ray gun.

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SpitFire
GOLD Member since Dec 2002

Mand's Girl....and The Not So Shy One
Location: Calgary, Alberta Canada

Total posts: 2723
Posted:Written by: Hanz

ok, ok, ok... sorry Dm ... erm... I am new and naive... does that count as an excuse? Not really...
But if you are trying to stop something from being banned would you want to sue? that would get it banned even faster



It's not necessarily the performer who would sue, though, is it?

What if you have an equipment failure and your poi hits a spectator? What if that person gets badly burned? They'd be likely to sue, and I'm sure that's where the folks running the show are coming from.

Spinning fire is a thrill, to be sure, but it is not the end all be all of spinning.

Mand also made some very good points, as did Dom. I'll leave it at that.


Solitude sometimes speaks to you, and you should listen.

Delete

MSG (aah my stomach lining)


MSG (aah my stomach lining)

member
Location: tasmania

Total posts: 36
Posted:in our troop our motto is "don't get court" so if you do somthing wrong it's your fault!


-----------------------------------

pa pa pa-pa-pa patrick

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*PiPeR*


*PiPeR*

stranger
Location: Australia

Total posts: 38
Posted:Hmm perhaps I havent stressed it properly before, but the one of the things that frustrates me the most is that the youth had NO SAY in this ban what-so-ever. If you look at what I said before

The decision to ban fire twirling was made by the Branch Management Council, which consists of adults primarily over 30. No youth representation had a say in it. I believe it is immoral of the scouting principles and ideals to ban something that has become a part of scouting culture without consultation or discussion with the youth members for which the whole organisation is designed for. "

You could stick any activity in there as the subject and it wouldnt make a difference (eg uniform for all you Australian Scouts!) I think it was gone about the wrong way, and that is just as much a part of why I am so angry as is the plain fact that there is no more fire. It seems to be becoming an pattern in scouting, that decision are made without consolation of the people who matter. I liked wouacs idea about:

Sit down the council members ask them for their approval maybe give them a show or two to show that ur safe

but it doesnt seem like they are willing to listen to us anyway.

Mand, I do understand why they made the decision, but I think it was a bit of a cop-out. If fire twirling is to become accepted in other places then scouting should be a pioneering organisation. They have scout organised abseiling teams with scouting qualification, why not set up a fire twirling team with scouting qualifications? They have done this for so many other activities lol, theres even Jelly Wrestling team that I know of! But what they said in the report was:

After considerable investigation and consideration, it has been decided that having regard to its very nature, "Fire Twirling" is an Adventurous Activity. Accordingly, before being designated as an "Approved Scouting Activity" it would be necessary to appoint a Branch Activity Leader with relevant technical expertise, similar to that required of a BAL, of any other Adventurous Activity Units.

For any number of compelling reasons, I have decided to not make any such appointment.

What they decided was not to even try to set up a BAL system for twirling. If it was, then twirling wouldnt be something that you could just pick up and do when your bored at camp, thered be much more paper work involved but that is understandable and would probably be great in the end in preventing what was suggested before by Mand:

So you might be a very good, very safe spinner.
But what about the person next to you?

Steps could be taken to prevent this. And at least we could still twirl fire. It may be argued that there would still be a few rouge people who would disregard the rules, but that is inevitable. For example shooting. You are supposed to have a licence but some people do it anyway. But the majority are perfectly accepting of the rules and guidelines and adhere to them.

Also, ItsLIGHTENING said that:

Fire spinning introduces the risk of fire out of control. It's not just about fire spinners, it's about the wilderness.

The wilderness isnt really an issue because the main place that twirling happens at is VG in the middle of a huge dirt ring surrounded by a fence, no vegetation around for a massive radius. I wish I knew the measurements, but its definitely sufficient, even by the most cautious of twirlers standards. So there is little danger of out of control fire affecting the environment.

Yes, there are other alternatives to fire spinning, I have my own set of electroglo poi that I love. But part of my love fire twirling is the interesting history that accompanies it. I know poi came from NZ and that there was no fire involved, but they were not the only culture to include it. Fire is a significant part of the Samoan or Hawaiian ailao (knife dance), and is also part of the culture is Thailand, and I delight in this historical edge to fire staff and poi. Sure, glowing poi and the like are said to be an adoption of the Maori culture, but I take my personal inspiration from elsewhere.

Im still just as frustrated with scouting as before, and I always did understand why they banned it, but perhaps this give a bit of an insight into exactly WHY I am annoyed

Anyway, we can all still spin elsewhere, so not all is lost.. not by a long shot weavesmiley peace


~*PiPeR*~

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kermit


kermit

overlord and maggot king
Location: heathmont, victoria, australia

Total posts: 171
Posted:i just want to combine my loves, twirling and scouting

welcome back to kermits mad land.


wont you join my teaparty.

Delete

Pele
BRONZE Member since Dec 2000

Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA

Total posts: 6193
Posted:First of all. I completely understand where they are coming from.
There are set guidelines for instructors in wilderness survival, hiking, white water rafting, etc. Therefore you can be assured that you are properly trained in all techniques and safety standards, so insurance covers this easily.

There are no such things in place for fire twirling. There are no set guidelines for you all to follow stating that you are properly trained in safety.

It is a HUGE liability that the leaders undertake. With white water rafting, you get the training and if something goes wrong and a parent is sue-happy they can go back to whomever it was that taught you, and that is only if they did not already sign a release waiver.

With fire, if someone gets hurt a parent can easily come back and sue the organization stating "They shouldn't have let kids play with fire. What were they thinking? Now my baby is hurt and I didn't give my permission for this and someone is going to be held accountable." There are no waivers for this, no training and no insurance. A parent would have a tremendous case for this which in the end *all scouts* would end up paying for.
Or worse, imagine it starting a bushfire because no one checked to get a permit? All fire twirlers there would pay the price for that one.

As for it being compared to building fire in a pit. A pit is contained, poi are flying around and can slip and hit someone. Happens to pro's it can happen to amatuers, as Dom said.

Besides, if you are in it for the fire...then light a fire in a pit. If you are in it for spinning, then there are alot of options out there for you to choose from, which are equally as lovely.

Pele


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

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Rouge Dragon
BRONZE Member since Jul 2003

Rouge Dragon

Insert Champagne Here
Location: without class distinction

Total posts: 13215
Posted:Pele, i think what PiPeR was saying is that people should have to sign release forms...or maybe i got it wrong confused

and the point about the uniform is very relevant to the fact that the organisation is supposed to be for the youths, yet the adults run it without any regards for what the majority of scouts think (and for me, i think that's the biggest issue). perhaps the 'Powers That Be' should have consulted some venturers to get their opinion on the matter or to at least discuss their reasoning before putting it in a blunt statement that didnt involve youth input.

is there a representative from venturers (or rovers if they want "adults"...yeah, rovers are "adults" ubblol) at these branch management councils? i think that perhaps there should...


i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...

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Hanz


Hanz

veteran
Location: Bendigo, Vic, Australia

Total posts: 1328
Posted:Me and PiPer were talking about it tonight on the way to Venturers.
Why cant we wear Fire Retardant clothing... who cares what we look like... as long as we are safe.
Make the twirlers have to sign forms, which means that a newbie cant pick up a stick and start fire twirling.
Have say only 2 twirlers at a time, in a large space so people arent jammed together, like at previous camps.
and there were others, I just cant think of them.

And our main problem isnt that they took away our Fire Twirling... it's the fact that they did it without speaking to most of the Youth Members... it's the uniform thing all over again.


Delete

Mand
SILVER Member since Oct 2003

Mand

Keeper of the Spitfire
Location: Calgary Canada

Total posts: 2317
Posted:Written by: Hanz

Why cant we wear Fire Retardant clothing... who cares what we look like... as long as we are safe.



Fire Retardant clothing isn't necessarily going to stop you setting yourself on fire if something goes wrong. Go read the article 'Clothing and Costume- fire safety.'
You'll notice it says this...

Written by:

Can flame resistant clothing save me?

No it will not. As an electrician I have seen flame resistant barriers and flame resistant cables catch on fire and burn quite happily. This can also happen with flame retardant and flame resistant clothing. Flame resistant means it will be difficult to set on fire but it is possible, it also means it is likely to self-extinguish when the heat source is removed. Flame retardant is easier to set on fire compared to flame resistant, it should also self-extinguish without the heat source.



However, if you do catch fire, flame retardant clothing will give you more time to put the flame out, or get the clothing off you.
But, do you have any idea of the cost of this stuff?
You say you can't spin fire outside of Venture's because you can't afford fire toys. Now all of a sudden you have ideas of getting expensive fire retardant clothing? confused

Having parents sign release forms could be a possibility, but I'm not sure how effective they would be in the bigger picture.
Take white water rafting as an example. A release form is signed for you to do that activity, and everyone participates in that activity, through their own choice, and knowing the risks involved.
In fire spinning, you're not only responsible for yourself, you're responsible for the people around you, and your spectators.
What if you have equipment failure, and a burning wick flies into the crowd and hits someone? Did that person's parents sign a release form which subjected them to the risks?
What if your fuel depot accidentaly gets set on fire? When spectators are stood around it.
What if your poi wrap and lock (it's happened to me before, around my neck- luckily they weren't on fire at the time), and some well meaning spectator gets burned coming to help?

Ok, so it might all just be nitpicking. But they're all possibilities.
They are, of course, possibilities for any fire spinners, not just you guys. But if you're attaching fire spinning to another organisation, especially one as prominant as the scouting community, then these are risks which you have to consider more carefully.

To be honest, I don't think you're going to get very far with your fight to be allowed to spin fire (not wanting to be pessimistic).
If spinning is what you're concerned about here, just stick to glowy things in scouts, and spin fire outside of scouts. Surely it's not that big an issue?
If what you're annoyed at is decisions being made without consulting you, (such as uniform changes) then this is something to take up with the Venture's. Has anybody even mentioned to them the possibility of them consulting you guys before making major decisions? If not, then that might be a place to start. wink


Lets steal a spaceship and head for the sun, and shoot the stars with a lemonade ray gun.

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Frodo
BRONZE Member since Mar 2017

Frodo

old hand
Location: In a van

Total posts: 1092
Posted:sorry to hear about this guys, i was a scout in the uk for 6 years, it rocked and although we werent shown spinning, god i can only imagine how ace it all was spinning at scouts.!!

why dont u guys get to the world scout jamboree thingy? and spin there, put on a show or somthing, and then the whole world of scouting will see!! then maybe they will offer to sort it?


passing through, this world still lives.

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Hanz


Hanz

veteran
Location: Bendigo, Vic, Australia

Total posts: 1328
Posted:OK... so maybe our suggestions weren't the best.
And the fire retardant stuff wasnt our idea... it came from one of my mates who does CFA with school... guess they havent been told fully about that stuff.

You know what... I tried to think of something... but I give up.


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*PiPeR*


*PiPeR*

stranger
Location: Australia

Total posts: 38
Posted:Nothing is ever 100% safe. Fire twirling isnt, white water rafting isnt, nothing is. We know this. And we arent trying to say that twirling is any safer than other adventurous activities. Of course it carries risks. Youd be insane to assume otherwise. Mand, you said that (forgive me guys, I cant work out that quote button thing, so Im copying and pasting!):
Fire Retardant clothing isn't necessarily going to stop you setting yourself on fire if something goes wrong.

Of course it wont, but it does have some input to minimising the risk. If you are white water rafting and you wear a life jacket, its not necessarily going to keep you from drowning. Yes, clothing would be expensive, but I think its wonderful that although hanz doesnt have the money she is still willing to put herself out for even longer with these precautions to give twirling a better chance at surviving scouting. If you want to go white water kayaking, but you cant afford your own kayak, you would sooner buy the protective gear and borrow someones extra equipment than get your own boat first. This means you still get to participate. The same could be said for twirling. I think its unfair to use that against hanz when all she is trying to do is think of ways to keep the activity that she loves so much alive. And if that means dishing out more cash, then good on her for making that tough decision.

Mand: If what you're annoyed at is decisions being made without consulting you, (such as uniform changes) then this is something to take up with the Venture's. Has anybody even mentioned to them the possibility of them consulting you guys before making major decisions? If not, then that might be a place to start.

Of course we have tried to get them to consult us first!!! We have a National Youth Council who they consulted about the new uniform. Every member voted against it, but the new uniform went ahead. There are youth members on the Vic council, but they were not told anything about this predicament until AFTER the decision was made. We have tried to make ourselves heard and to become a part of these decisions, but they push us aside time and time again. We have done more than just mention the possibility, we have give it to them on a platter. It doesnt make any difference. frown

There is always the risk of spectators being injured. As there mountain biking where spectators are lined up along the sides of difficult obstacle courses, when there is the risk of a bike going out of control and hitting someone. As there is in golf, when a dodgy swing could see someone hit in the head with a golf ball. As there at the circus when people spin fire, and there are the chances of wicks flying off and hitting people. But with all these activities precautions are taken to keep people at a safe distance, to check equipment to prevent malfunction, and to warn people at the beginning of what to do in the event that something does go wrong.

With a combination of:
-specific clothing
-pre-peformance warning to spectators
-permission forms for performers
-special check of all equipment beforehand.
-designated twirling area that meets set requirements, such as area per twirler and clear of vegetation,
-fire retardant or resistant clothing
-only specific fuels with all involved having good knowledge of their MSDS
-Safety people on stand by with fire blankets/extinguishers
-performers having to do a proof of competancy something-or-other beforehand
and any other precautions that could be made compulsory by a BAL with no worries at all, what's the problem?!? But sadly, they haven't asked us for out oppinion, and we try to give it to them (in an acceptable fashion of course, no 'revolutions'b wink)

But no matter, I'll keep on trying juggle


~*PiPeR*~

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UCOF
SILVER Member since Apr 2002

UCOF

Carpal \'Tunnel


Total posts: 15414
Posted:Become a leader biggrin

Thats what I did, and now they cant stop me. I even managed to get another one of the leaders to start spinning.

But then agian, that is over here in the UK where it is not seen as an official activity.

Probably because spinning isnt so big over here.

*sits down and waits for missiles*


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Rouge Dragon
BRONZE Member since Jul 2003

Rouge Dragon

Insert Champagne Here
Location: without class distinction

Total posts: 13215
Posted:*whistle*
duck jon, i think that's a missile! ubblol


i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...

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MSG (aah my stomach lining)


MSG (aah my stomach lining)

member
Location: tasmania

Total posts: 36
Posted:

y didn'y i just get that joke? confused



-----------------------------------

pa pa pa-pa-pa patrick

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kermit


kermit

overlord and maggot king
Location: heathmont, victoria, australia

Total posts: 171
Posted:cause your tasmanian

welcome back to kermits mad land.


wont you join my teaparty.

Delete

UCOF
SILVER Member since Apr 2002

UCOF

Carpal \'Tunnel


Total posts: 15414
Posted:oddly enough...that was EXACTLY what I was going to say!

Delete

MSG (aah my stomach lining)


MSG (aah my stomach lining)

member
Location: tasmania

Total posts: 36
Posted:hey leave us alone


-----------------------------------

pa pa pa-pa-pa patrick

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