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Hanzveteran
1,328 posts
Location: Bendigo, Vic, Australia


Posted:
Tonight I went to Venturers, which is the thing which got me into Fire Twirling, to have one of the guys walk up to me and show me the latest Scouts Australia magazine, I only got to read one line, but that was enough for me, it read "Fire Twirlers, please note, Fire Twirling is not a Scout Association approved activity," and then some other stuff, which now means that Fire Twirling at any Venturer activity is banned... why? Insurance, they cant afford to have someone sue them if they get burnt, but if you get badly burnt enough to sue someone, you mustnt have been doing something correct.
One of the reasons, possibly the main reason they have taken it away from us is that the association doesnt have training for it to make it safe, and there arent enough people to keep an eye on it to make sure it is safe.

So now I have the problem of having a major Venturer activity coming up and we are not allowed to Fire Twirl, which takes away our night time activity... and the fact that it will take away friendships, if you see someone twirling and your a twirler, you go up and say hi, you have something in common... why not?

Then there is the fact that you are probably safer Fire Twirling, then you are going hiking with a group of 4 16 year olds... but thats allowed.

I guess the main reason why I am annoyed is that they have banned the fire now that I am confident enough to experiment with fire... and where else am I able to twirl? I dont have my own equipment, I borrow from friends at Venturer activities when they are on staff... and I cant afford my own gear yet.

Anyway, I am going to stop now... sorry guys, I just had to vent, and who else do I know who would understand how I feel about this?

Hanzveteran
1,328 posts
Location: Bendigo, Vic, Australia


Posted:
Ooh, thats what I forgot to say... what should I do, or say? is there anything we could try to do?

Or do we just stick to electro stuff, to show that even though they can take away our fire twirling, they cant take away our twirling as a whole?

Madam FlameBRONZE Member
Satisfying HOPs Lust For Fire
308 posts
Location: Salem, Oregon, USA


Posted:
I say do what you can, glow sticks, beaming poi, whatever. Don't let them completly kill your spinning. & maybe with a little planning & some time, you can find some way to incopporate fire back in. Talk to the prople who banned it & see what it would take for them to allow it again, & then fihure out how to make it happen. If money is the issue, see what kind of fund raising you can do. Good luck!

Never settle for normal.devil
Average thinking brings average results.


pounceSILVER Member
All the neurotic makings of America's lesser known sweetheart
9,831 posts
Location: body in Las Vegas, heart all around the world, USA


Posted:
ditto

I was always scared with my mother's obsession with the good scissors. It made me wonder if there were evil scissors lurking in the house somewhere.

Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons for you are crunchy and good with ketchup.

**giggles**


gitaSILVER Member
.:*distracted by shiny things*:.
3,776 posts
Location: brizvegas, Australia


Posted:
man that sux!! i'm going to tell my dad & pout a lot!! (my dad is involved in scouts...or was...he's friends with a dc anyway!) i'll check if that's the same thing here in qld...i sure hope not - not that i'm a scout or venturer - but i'm sure there's twirlers in the scouts up here!

stupid insurance! angry you can't do anything these days! eek



meditate

do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and good to eat!

if at first you do succeed, try not to look too astonished!

smile! grin it confuses people!


Rouge DragonBRONZE Member
Insert Champagne Here
13,215 posts
Location: without class distinction, Australia


Posted:
ditto to the insurance thing!
i agree with what people are saying about the electro glo, see if you can do that.
otherwise, can you arranged to meet up with the twirling venturers external to venturers? just beause you met them through venturers doesnt limit you to only intertacting with them that way.
you said that twirling at any 'venturer' activity is banned...how long til you hit rovers wink

i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...


Hanzveteran
1,328 posts
Location: Bendigo, Vic, Australia


Posted:
Yeah I was thinking about just using the elctro stuff to show that they cant kill us off entirely.

My leaders are planning on writing to DC and asking why they banned it and kinda complaining, but being nice at the same time.

And why cant we meet up out of Venturer camps? well me and Amanda can, but it will be easier when I get my own gear coz I wont have to borrow hers... but the rest of us live hours away from each other, and so with school and work and stuff it has to be organised for ages, cant just be a spur of the moment thing... but we will see what happens with that.

Rogue Dragon, it is still 2 years before I hit Rovers (how do u know about Rovers?) but they said it was banned from any Scout Association activity thing... I will have to find the article and copy it down into here.

And yes, insurance does suck, they have already banned a bunch of our activities, so we cant do that anymore.

And one of our leaders is kinda upset/annoyed about it coz she has never seen us twirl, because we twirl at night and she has a one year old daughter who needs to sleep at night and so has never seen us twirl before.... and now she wont be able to.

Anyway, thanks for the support guys, I will see what happens to the twirling in Venturers, and I will keep you notified of any changes and if I end up writing a letter, which I want to, I will most likely ask you guys for help to make it sound more fire intelligent.

DomBRONZE Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,009 posts
Location: Bristol, UK


Posted:
Yep, that's a bummer, but when doing something like fire spinning you do have to understand thier point of view.

One thing I picked up on:
Written by: Hanz


but if you get badly burnt enough to sue someone, you mustnt have been doing something correct.



wrong, wrong, wrong! , WRONG!!!!!
Accidents can happen in so many ways and regardless of experience. Fire is dangerous, even in the most controlled, experienced and practised of uses and even experienced performers make mistakes and get complacent which makes accidents more likely. This is why insurances companies charge hefty premiums for fire work, and I can understand why.

Hanzveteran
1,328 posts
Location: Bendigo, Vic, Australia


Posted:
ok, ok, ok... sorry Dm ... erm... I am new and naive... does that count as an excuse? Not really...
But if you are trying to stop something from being banned would you want to sue? that would get it banned even faster

Rouge DragonBRONZE Member
Insert Champagne Here
13,215 posts
Location: without class distinction, Australia


Posted:
Written by: Hanz


Rogue Dragon, it is still 2 years before I hit Rovers (how do u know about Rovers?)




i know about rovers cos, i used to do cubs (quit cos of sporting commitments), and one of my good friends is a venturer - going to rovers when she finishes yr12, and my boyfriend is a rover.

i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...


OrangeBoboSILVER Member
veteran
1,389 posts
Location: Guelph, ON, Canada


Posted:
Awwww, that's horrible! But I can *completely* understand it! I have seen a tent go aflame when a bunch of idiot scouts were playing with a lantern and aerosol bug spray! eek and a couple flags went down in that too...



Insurance is a huge issue with scouting, I find. Like... huge. I've been through cubs, scouts, and am now in Venturers as well. My father has been a leader with me through that whole time as well (annoying everyonce in a while to say the least, believe me!), and he's had to deal with the insurance thing. For example, we're going to a camp in two weekends, and he just told me that it's policy to have two leaders in a car when driving to a location with youth on a scouting event. I've never heard it until now!



Then there's all the policies about keeping girls/boys away from eachother (ie. no boys allowed in girls tent, vice-versa.)



And face it - kids see fire, kids want to play with fire. How many times have *you* had to tell a little cub "STOP POKING THE DAMN FIRE!! WHAT GOES IN STAYS IN!!!" *goes to poke the fire with a metal pole that conducts heat*



And on that note, at the camp I'm going to (themed Scottish and HIghland games - all atendees must wear kilts), I'm bringin my poi!! See what I've experienced, with Scouts, it's all very to the schedule, following the plan. Venturers.... Eh! What happens happens! Just enjoy it! And that's why at CJ (Canadian Jambouree) we had a huge white tent with a live DJ and mosh pits, songs that swore, with the supervising advisors on the side shrugging, saying "what are you gonna do, eh?"



T'is much fun biggrin Until the paperwork and phonecalls come >.< (I'm the prez of my co.)



Good luck smile



~ Bobo
EDITED_BY: OrangeBobo (1091932226)

wie weit, wie weit noch?
fragst mich, wo wir gewesen sind...
du fehlst hier


Hanzveteran
1,328 posts
Location: Bendigo, Vic, Australia


Posted:
Good reason u got there Rogue... knowing my luck I may have come across your friend at some stage... who knows.

I was talking to my parents this morning and they came to the conclusion that it hasnt been banned, we've only been told that if we get hurt we cant complain to them about it, kinda thing... so I am hoping that is the way it is going to work... I hope *crosses fingers*

Bobo... with the leaders alone in cars with youth we dont worry about that usually.. as long as there are other Youth's in the car... occasionly it is a problem, but not really... havent been told off yet. I know that last year on the way to VG which is a state wide camp me and one of the other girls were driven there by a Rover on their P's and one of the other girls was driven there by one of her friends Andrew, who is in Rovers and it was only those 2 in the car.

As for the policy of girls staying out of guys tents and vice-versa, what the leaders dont know, wont hurt them... dont know about Canada but most people know what Venturers is really about (well for some anyway). The amount of people u find sleeping in the other genders tents is crazy.

As for telling cubs to keep away from the fire... I try not to have much to do with cubs... lol

And yeah, leaders generally dont give a damn in Venturers, as long as we behave around the little kids and dont teach them bad habits... altho some people do slip with the language occasionly... but they have learnt that u cant stop 15-18 year olds doing what they do, u can only ask them to tone it down.. and if u do it nicely, it sometimes works.

MiGGOLD Member
Self-Flagellation Expert
3,415 posts
Location: Bogged at CG, Australia


Posted:
cadets and male female splitting used to annoy the daylights out of me. what, they expect 50-100 kids, aged between 12.5 and 18, of both genders, locked in an area of about an acre to not have any form of relationship?

"beg beg grovel beg grovel"
"master"
--FSA

"There was an arse there, i couldn't help myself"
--Rougie


Hanzveteran
1,328 posts
Location: Bendigo, Vic, Australia


Posted:
Of course you form relationships, I know a guy who picks up a differant chick on every camp he goes on... of course relationships happen, of course these ones dont mean anything, but still.

And the other thing is if you spend that much time with someone of course you develop something...

kermitoverlord and maggot king
171 posts
Location: heathmont, victoria, australia


Posted:
hanz, we have to get together, go to VG and im organising a mass fire twirl they cant stiop us they cant find out, we need everyone. NO-ONE will stop us. look for the goths and ask for kermit. You have to go. its gonna be massive.

welcome back to kermits mad land.


wont you join my teaparty.


Hanzveteran
1,328 posts
Location: Bendigo, Vic, Australia


Posted:
lol... the goths... sorry mate, but apparently a few years back the goths started up a riot or something like that.

Oh and I found the article.
the following quote is from Page 16 of the Australian Scout, August 2004. In the
"Chief Commissioner, Victoria" section by Alston Park OAM.

====begin quote====

Fire Twirling
In recnt years "Fire Twirling" has been demonstrated at some major Scouting events, particularly in the Venturer and Rover Sections.

A short while ago, it was suggested that "Fire Twirling" be formally recognised and included within our Scout programs.

After considerable investigation and consideration, it has been decided that having regard to its very nature, "Fire Twirling" is an Adventurous Activity. Accordingly, before being designated as an "Approved Scouting Activity" it would be necessary to appoint a Branch Activity Leader with relevant technical expertise, similar to that required of a BAL, of any other Adventurous Activity Units.

For any number of compelling reasons, I have decided to not make any such appointment. This decision has been supported by the Branch Management Council. Consequently, "Fire Twirling" is NOT an "Approved Scouting Activity" and it is specifically prohibited from being included either within our Scouting program or presented as a demonstration at any future Scouting events after 1st August 2004.

Any Scout wishing to participate in "Fire Twirling" may, of course do so but only as a private individual and not in any way associated with or at a Scouting activity.

IT IS STRESSED THAT "FIRE TWIRLING" IS NOT A SCOUT APPROVED OR AUTHORISD ACTIVITY.

====end quote====

I would hope that this is followed up with a bit more detail on the Vic Scouts web site (a discussion paper, a risk assessment, minutes from the BMC?).

And Kermit... yeah, if I go, we gotta meet up, not sure about the twirling, but we definately gotta meet up. Remind me closer to the date.

kermitoverlord and maggot king
171 posts
Location: heathmont, victoria, australia


Posted:
if youve got msn, i added you. goths never started any riots, it was a mosh pit that got exciting

welcome back to kermits mad land.


wont you join my teaparty.


Hanzveteran
1,328 posts
Location: Bendigo, Vic, Australia


Posted:
yeah I have msn... but I use spanna_1988@hotmail.com for msn, so if ya want u can add that one.

Bender_the_OffenderGOLD Member
still can't believe it's not butter
6,979 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia


Posted:
if i visit a place, i am a guest.
if i firetwirl, then the performance is a gift i give.
this world is big enough so that if a place does not wish such a gift, then i am free to give it elsewhere peace

Laugh Often, Smile Much, Post lolcats Always


OrangeBoboSILVER Member
veteran
1,389 posts
Location: Guelph, ON, Canada


Posted:
The thing I dont get, is that they'll let you shoot white water rapids, mountain climb, hike for days on end self-contained through wilderness, and hike - all of thsoe activities have had someone die during them for various reasons. I know of a kid who nearly died on a hike with his cub pack because a 40 tonne boulder rolled over him.

Even making fires in a firepit is a risk, everything we do could possibly end up in injury, getting ill, or even death! So why would this be any different? They said that it was an "adventurous activity", as are all the others.

No sence....

~ Bobo

wie weit, wie weit noch?
fragst mich, wo wir gewesen sind...
du fehlst hier


Hanzveteran
1,328 posts
Location: Bendigo, Vic, Australia


Posted:
I know we're allowed to do all these things... I wonder all the time what the association is coming to... but yeah, letting us hike, go 4WD, etc and they dont let us fire twirl... crazy.

It's like, we're not allowed to sleep in a tent with guys, but when we go on our expeditions we dont have a leader with us... so who knows what we get upto... stupid people. lol.

*PiPeR*stranger
38 posts
Location: Australia


Posted:
Hey guys... ha, hanz, check out my post in 'social discussion'... i missed yours or else I wouldn't have posted it. (btw I'm the 'Amanda' she mentioned before)

I can understand the concern that the big wigs in scouting have because of the activity, but as hanz and bobo said there are so many other things that carry the same risk... with certain precautions and safety measures twirling can be made 'safer' than many of those other activities that we do. It seems that anything with the word 'fire' in it get's people paranoid....

Wonder if i'll get to finish my expressions 2 badge for my queen scout... i'm doing fire twirling and i'm already halfway through it. Hmmm...

Hey Kermit, may I join your revolution? It will be my last VG as a venturer and I don't want to see it fire twirling free... I know a few of the goths, wish I knew your identity... ubbloco

Anyway, the rest of my thoughts are in the other post... maybe I'll copy it over here sometime...

~*PiPeR*~


Hanzveteran
1,328 posts
Location: Bendigo, Vic, Australia


Posted:
Heya Amanda!! lol...

ooh... Kermit please let her come find out about you... I was gonna ask anyway... coz I would feel strange wondering around on my own yelling out "Kermit"... altho VG is for Vents, I am allowed to be strange, lol.

But Amanda, and possibly Kermit, we definately need to write a letter into the big-wigs... ask whats going on and see if we can get it back somehow.

*PiPeR*stranger
38 posts
Location: Australia


Posted:
Ahh, I can't stand it.. here is my post from the other forum...

"FIRE TWIRLING HAS BEEN BANNED FROM SCOUTING ACROSS VICTORIA, AUSTRALIA!!!

And I am so dismayed!

I am a Venturer (Scout section from 14-18 years of age) and I remember my very first twirling experienceI was 15 and it was the annual Victorian Gathering camp. On the Saturday night a large crowd gathered around the edge of a dirt road loop there were about 25 people fiddling around with strange equipment in the dark. Suddenly, a ball of fire burst out of the darkness, and all along the road other fireballs erupted and what followed was the most amazing things Ive ever seen 25 wonderfully fluid, energetic, mesmerizing twirlers all spinning together. They were untouchable, they seemed to be part of an unspoken club that no one could enter without that love of this remarkable art form and the skills and respect to manipulate these flaming toys. I knew from that moment that I wanted to be part of that illusive alliance, and so I decided that I wanted to learn to twirl.

Its been 2 years since that day, and I am an avid twirler of both staff and poi. But now the organization that I once respected for being so accepting and accommodating of everyones hobbies and passions has decided to ban this beautiful activity. The rumor is that it has been banned because of insurance reasons. If this is the case then I dont see much hope for any of the activities that scouting promotes, such as canyoning, caving, white water rafting, rock climbing anything of an adventurous nature. They all carry a certain risk, but that doesn't mean that they should all be banned

The decision to ban fire twirling was made by the Branch Management Council, which consists of adults primarily over 30. No youth representation had a say in it. I believe it is immoral of the scouting principles and ideals to ban something that has become a part of scouting culture without consultation or discussion with the youth members for which the whole organization is designed for. "

and that...is what I think.
A letter is definately in order to say the least.

~*PiPeR*~


kermitoverlord and maggot king
171 posts
Location: heathmont, victoria, australia


Posted:
but then again, they changed the uniform without caring that 90% of us wanted to keep the old one, stupid suchandsos

welcome back to kermits mad land.


wont you join my teaparty.


MikeGinnyGOLD Member
HOP Mad Doctor
13,923 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA


Posted:
You know, my Scout troop a few years ago managed to burn a quarter-mile square area because someone didn't properly extinguish a campfire. When I was the Senior Patrol Leader, our troop was the premier troop in all of Michigan in contest after contest. In fact, we may well have been the premier troop in the entire Midwest. And it happened to Troop 1022.

Look at it from their point of view:

It's one thing for someone to get hurt or killed. These things happen and they are very unfortunate. Scout organizations are aware of this possibility, but they also accept that this comes as a necessary risk of teaching young people to be physically and mentally active.

Fire spinning introduces the risk of fire out of control. It's not just about fire spinners, it's about the wilderness. You know as well as I do that the outback is not exactly a fire-tolerant environment. It's dry as bone and burns like stink if a fire gets out of control. It's quite reasonable for an insurance company to be concerned about the effect of whirling fireballs on the wildnerness.

Yeah it sucks, I agree fully. But cheer up! They haven't banned poi, now, have they?

-Mike

Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella



A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura


MiGGOLD Member
Self-Flagellation Expert
3,415 posts
Location: Bogged at CG, Australia


Posted:
mike, im sorry to keep picking bones with you, but victoria isnt the outback. as much as the victorians want to think it is, its not, and i dont think it ever will be. that and the true outback is in fact very fire tolerant - there is nothing to burn except sand and rock, and that dont light too well. Plus, we're in the middle of one of the wettest winters in the last 20 years or something, which makes it hard for stuff to light, too. Agreed, summer isnt a good time to do anything with hot stuff, even car exhausts - one caused a fire over here that blacked out over 300,000 homes, but that is summer, and 40 degree C days with close to 0% humidity are a different story.

and, from that letter
Written by: Hanz


Any Scout wishing to participate in "Fire Twirling" may, of course do so


, it seems that you are still allowed to do it on camps and such, but you arent allowed to say 'look at what we do at scouts' and proceed to light up, nor can you use it to get your badges.

Use your own interpretation, if they whinge, say 'interpretation is 99% of the law, and my interpretation of that law is that im not allowed to include it either within our Scouting program or present it as a demonstration, which im not.'

"beg beg grovel beg grovel"
"master"
--FSA

"There was an arse there, i couldn't help myself"
--Rougie


Hanzveteran
1,328 posts
Location: Bendigo, Vic, Australia


Posted:
Ahh but it does say, "Any Scout wishing to participate in "Fire Twirling" may, of course do so but only as a private individual and not in any way associated with or at a Scouting activity." So the way I interpret that is that we are allowed to Fire Twirl, but not at scout activities, or any kind of badge work or whatever... like say, I can go to Amandas and twirl, but we cant go to a Scout/Venurer/whatever activity and twirl.

wouacGOLD Member
Poi-tato
183 posts
Location: Iceberg 319, Canada


Posted:
hey only read about half the board so far so if i repeat something someone else has already said sorry but as far as i can say Sit down the council members ask them for their approval maybe give them a show or two to show that ur safe if that doesnt work either raise a petition or try getting a legal document that states you are responsible for any injuries that result from the twirling and get all the fire twirlers to sign it before they twirl then no one could make any annoyance in case of injury or what not but if all else fails just do the other route and stick to glow sticks and beaming poi

It is a mistake to think you can solve any major problems just with potato's.


Kinudin (Soul Fyre)veteran
1,325 posts
Location: San Diego, California, USA


Posted:
My scout troop is going through a huge reform in rule following. We used to be one of the most easy going troops you would ever meet. We didn't even care if you wore your Class A Uniform (The actual uniform, not the Troop shirt with a logo on it) on train rides, car rides to troop activities, or plane rides to camps and whatnot. Now we have new management and the Class A must be worn at all times, fully tucked in, buttoned up, and no wrinkles. Whenever going anywhere without an adult you MUST, repeat MUST (No if ands or but's) have 4 buddy's even if you're going across the hall of an Airport to get food, goto the bathroom, or just read the map.

This tells me that my troop follows the rules strictly, and won't risk anything to let the Boy scouts of america pull some evil legal crap on us.

But I can still spin my tailed poi, glowstick poi, or beaming poi at campouts. I even brought it to Philmont in New Mexico where they have a partial fire ban. They didn't care at all. So I don't think you should really worry about spinning poi there. Go for it and have fun! ^_^ Make the other Venture crews and scouts wanna do it too biggrin

Surry. I went off topic there,
Kinudin

MSG (aah my stomach lining)member
36 posts
Location: tasmania


Posted:
down here in tas my troop dosn't ever wear a uniform, we run the whole thing ourselves so of-ourse spinning is part of any venture night.
but if the rules do change no ones going to be botherd to tell us anyway confused


-----------------------------------

pa pa pa-pa-pa patrick


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