Mint Sauce
veteran
Location: Lancs England
Member Since: 7th Sep 2003
Total posts: 1453
Posted:Look can I try and clear one thing up once and for all (ok ok I know that is impossible but I would like to try)

What would you classify as a BEAT

In all the descriptions of the different kinds of weave people are getting confused as different definitions are being used.

I think we are in agreement that a beat consists of a full rotation of the poi (usually distinguished at the bottom of the swing as it pulls you hand down ergo a beat )

But the problem occurs when you come to counting them some people like to count them on one side of the body E.g. a 3 beat weave would consist of 3 rotations on the left side of the body.

Some people like to count it with one hand so in the 3 beat weave would consist of the right hand doing 3 rotations till it gets back to its original position.

But I have heard of some people counting the number of rotations for a move so what I would like to call a 3 beat weave becomes a 6 beat

And in some bizarre occasions Ive heard people talk about 5 beat weave and seen them do it and it is just the standard 3 beat how they came to that number I have no idea.

Out of all I prefer the counting beats of one hand till it returns to its original position (humm iv just seen a problem with this as I was typing what happens when you do lopsided moves which I often do)

But the problem I see with counting the rotations on one side is that as you cross over the rotation is not truly on that side with a cross from the left to right would you count the beat to the left or right hand side???

Now I am coming to the end of this I am starting to favour the counting the beats for each hand so the 3 beat weave would become the 6 beat weave and if you add an extra rotation on one side and not the other it then becomes a AGGGGGGGGG my head hurts now HELP HELP HELP

Just had to stand up and count beats in every way I could and I'm all confused


before i met those lot i thought they'd be a bunch of dreadlocked hippies that smoked, set things on fire ,and drank a lot of tea but then when i met them....oh wait (PyroWill)

Delete Topic

Dragon7
Dragon7

addict
Location: Aotearoa (NZ)
Member Since: 17th Oct 2003
Total posts: 625
Posted:Probibly best to leave this subject alone, every year theres a thread like this and it never goes anywhere except round in circles.

My definition of a 5bt is "bloddy hard" though its not THAT hard its beyond alot of people. For a better discription there is always THIS or THAT but most people here know what a true 5bt is. I hear what your saying about defnitions, but i doubt there is anyway of expressing it in text, but iv seen it attempted more than afew times.

Best way to share it is to do it real slow and say "see this is a 5 bt" clear and easy and most spinners iv meet can do it in 1 plane...the trick is learning it in all planes.

Trying to define it only leads to more confusion... if you can see it (even on video) you can clearly see if your doing it or not, but there are afew people who convince themselves they are doing it wether they are or not ubblol

Defnitions get bad because if you know off set weaves you will know that saying "this poi on top of another in this arrangement" means nothing.

Even if people can see THIS is a 4 bt weave. And they know that is what they are doing its obvious they are not doing a 6bt. Though there are a couple of legends who think 6 is easy. B@stards! wink

If they still try to tell you how it is, dont sweat it, you know the score and thats all that matters.

I never count, i just watch videos and demo/ how to clips and know. Wait untill you see some one perform a 9bt! thats just mind blowing and insprirational eek just thinking about it makes me wanna burn weavesmiley


Delete

onewheeldave
Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield
Member Since: 28th Aug 2002
Total posts: 3252
Posted:NYC explained this really well, so here's a copy and paste of his old reply: -

Written by: NYC

it has been defined on Home of Poi for years. There is an OLD article which serves as the doctrine of beats which has been up long before I joined.

http://www.homeofpoi.com/articles/beats.php



Beats do exist. Especially for basic moves such as weaves. Beats ARE, WERE, and WILL ALWAYS BE the number of circles that one poi hand does before the pattern repeats. The Jedi kids have developed moves which can't be defined using this definition such as airwraps and hyperloops so they say things like 'beats don't exist' but they only mean for extremely high level spinners doing complicated moves. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />


Look at your right hand in a 3 beat weave. It does two circles on the left side and one on the right (over, under, out) before the entire pattern repeats.

A 5 beat weave does 5 circles with each hand before the given pattern repeats. For your right hand it's 3 on the right side, two on the left. This is fact and not up for discussion. THAT'S why it's accurately called a 5 beat. It has been defined this way since it was originally named and filmed on HoP. (A 4 beat is two circles on each side with each hand.... so one hand does 4 beats before the pattern repeats




"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

Delete

NYC
NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Member Since: 26th Aug 2001
Total posts: 9232
Posted:Damn. This NYC fellow sounds cranky. wink

Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

Delete

Rev
Rev

Bastard Newbie Messiah
Location: Apparently lost in my ego
Member Since: 14th Mar 2003
Total posts: 1269
Posted:I'm glad this came up...



because I want to know..



why aren't bf weave bts counted as weave beats.. I'm not looking to argue for once.. I'm just asking.. for simplicity... I knwo the total move/ 2 sides/ 2 (bf) is the standard... based on thebutterfly and ttn's used to do it.. 4bt ttn per side = 4bt bf weave= 16 beats..



but I mean that leaves a 3 bt opposite direction weave as being 1.5 bt bf weave..





anyway.. I don't want a fight.. I just want to know why the change in the system since most everything else uses beats as equivalent to circles.. and thus as NYC put it..



edit PS.. I REALLY am only asking a question.. there is no hidden agenda..

EDITED_BY: Rev (1091387263)


More useless information courtesy of Rev...
Confusing the masses, one post at a time...
"Obviously, you're not a golfer.."- The Dude
"Buy the ticket... Take the ride..." -Raoul Duke
"FEMA has never done catastrophe planning..."-Michael Brown

Delete

Dom
Dom

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Bristol, UK
Member Since: 19th Dec 2001
Total posts: 3009
Posted:There's a few posts somewhere that talk about beats vs circles, but I'm too tired to search for you, so go fish.

Delete

spiralx
spiralx

veteran
Location: London, UK
Member Since: 1st May 2002
Total posts: 1376
Posted:Rev... see my post on spherculism. Butterfly weave is exactly the same beat count as regular weave because it follows exactly the same path.

"Moo," said the happy cow.

Delete

NYC
NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Member Since: 26th Aug 2001
Total posts: 9232
Posted:Rev, I think you're confused on two aspects.

If you did a complete 4 beat TTN on both sides, you'd be doing an 8 beat move.

What you're probably doing is half of a 4bTTN on each side and thus doing the much easier 4 beat version of the butterfly weave.

The three beat butterfly weave is tricky and really does have once circle on one side and two on the other. If you have an orange poi in one hand and a green one in the other, and do the butterfly weave (3 beat) then you will, honestly, have done 3 circles with the orange poi. And 3 with the green. Meaning it's a 3 beat move.


Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

Delete

Rev
Rev

Bastard Newbie Messiah
Location: Apparently lost in my ego
Member Since: 14th Mar 2003
Total posts: 1269
Posted:I understand that guys...


I got a clip back in the day of jo derry doing a 5bt bf weave... or so i was told.. and it involved a 4bt ttn on each side..

so I've always run with (as other people have argued) that a 5bt bf weave had a 4bt ttn each side and a little....

but that's a 10bt bf weave.. by weave standards you know.. so I guess I was confused because noone has ever discussed 6,8,10 bt bf weaves... only 3,4,5...

I understand the difference between
2R,1L ~ 2L,1R
and
3bt ttn ~ rev 3bt ttn..

I've always understood the latter to be the bf weave..

is this what people meant by bf weave vs ttn weave? or is there some distinction made that I missed..


More useless information courtesy of Rev...
Confusing the masses, one post at a time...
"Obviously, you're not a golfer.."- The Dude
"Buy the ticket... Take the ride..." -Raoul Duke
"FEMA has never done catastrophe planning..."-Michael Brown

Delete

NYC
NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Member Since: 26th Aug 2001
Total posts: 9232
Posted:If you add up all the beats in a move by one hand, you will find out how many beats are in that move.

Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

Delete

NYC
NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Member Since: 26th Aug 2001
Total posts: 9232
Posted:Written by: Rev

I understand that guys...

I understand the difference between
2R,1L ~ 2L,1R
and
3bt ttn ~ rev 3bt ttn..

I've always understood the latter to be the bf weave..




I found your problem. You do HALF of a 3bt ttn on one side and HALF of a 3bt ttn on the other to get a 3 beat ttn weave. That adds up to three beats. So you do one circle on one side and two on the other with each poi for a TTN weave.

I swear to friggin God that if you add up all the circles done by one hand in a basic move you get the number of beats in that move. Of course I'm currently standing just feet away from Glass and he's screaming about there not being beats but he's just trying to be difficult.

There are some beat paradoxes, like what if I do a 3 beat weave with one hand while holding the other hand steady. Or having one hand move faster than the other one. But that's just breaking the laws of counting the minimum possible circles.

If beats confuse you, forget them. They only exist as an educational tool.


Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

Delete

Aleks
Aleks

journeyman
Location: West Midlands, UK
Member Since: 1st Jul 2004
Total posts: 64
Posted:right as a newbie I understand that we say-

Each hand in a weave does the same but in an opposite direction... even if one hand does one more circle on one side or whatever the number of circles is still the same because (and this is the really important bit).... your hands should be moving in split time around the same point (ie your wrists to make nice tidy circles).... once they get back to the same combination on twisted limbs you had when you started thats when you stop counting??!!


Look at me twirl my pretty rainbow poi in my rainbowhat with my rainbow earings and my rainbow top etc.....

Delete

NYC
NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Member Since: 26th Aug 2001
Total posts: 9232
Posted:Sounds like a butterfly/ttn weave to me!

Well said!

biggrin


Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

Delete

Rev
Rev

Bastard Newbie Messiah
Location: Apparently lost in my ego
Member Since: 14th Mar 2003
Total posts: 1269
Posted:NYC-

I'm going figure out why my 4bt ttn.. has 8bts.. and then I'll come back to this discussion.. and other people have 4bt ttns that are 4bt..

EDITED_BY: Rev (1091555040)


More useless information courtesy of Rev...
Confusing the masses, one post at a time...
"Obviously, you're not a golfer.."- The Dude
"Buy the ticket... Take the ride..." -Raoul Duke
"FEMA has never done catastrophe planning..."-Michael Brown

Delete

NYC
NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Member Since: 26th Aug 2001
Total posts: 9232
Posted:Sounds cool.

Are you sure you're counting the number of beats that ONE hand does.

I was confused initially at butterfly/ttn counting as well cuz it feels wierd.

My right hand in a 4bttn goes OUT, OUT, IN, IN, OUT, OUT, IN, IN... etc...


Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

Delete

Rev
Rev

Bastard Newbie Messiah
Location: Apparently lost in my ego
Member Since: 14th Mar 2003
Total posts: 1269
Posted:each hadn does 4bts in my 4bt ttn.. which is how it makes 4 bfs.. not 4 acutal butterflies
but when done same time.. it looks like 4 butterflies each full thread motion (ie before it repeats a threading motion)


More useless information courtesy of Rev...
Confusing the masses, one post at a time...
"Obviously, you're not a golfer.."- The Dude
"Buy the ticket... Take the ride..." -Raoul Duke
"FEMA has never done catastrophe planning..."-Michael Brown

Delete

NYC
NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Member Since: 26th Aug 2001
Total posts: 9232
Posted:Ok wait... don't do 4 beat stuff for a 3 beat ttn weave.

If you're doing a complete 4 beat ttn on each side... well, I dunno what the hell you're doing but it ain't a standard ttn weave.

The standard 3 beat ttn weave has no elements of a 4 beat ttn in it. It's all 2 beat with the last beat on each side cut out.


Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

Delete

spiralx
spiralx

veteran
Location: London, UK
Member Since: 1st May 2002
Total posts: 1376
Posted:Well the 3bt butterfly weave is where each hand does a 3bt TTN with one beat in one wheel plane, the other two in the other wheel plane. But that's an unwieldly definition smile

"Moo," said the happy cow.

Delete