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Drea


member
Location: Melbourne/Austin

Total posts: 18
Posted:Was just wondering what the reaction is in the United States to the new action where men of Middle Eastern appearance who are entering the US will be treated differently than everyone else.

I'm not in the country right now, but am shocked about this turn of events.
I knew shit was FUCKED in that country, but this takes the fucking cake. (Not that it's worse than other things, but that it is *blatantly* unconstitutional)

I know the ACLU is in uproar about this, but I'm not sure how much media attention they get.

Anyone on a college campus - any protests there?

I am REALLY not looking forward to going back to that right-wing hellhole.

~Drea


hmm.. am in a hippy mood:Reduce, Reuse, Recycle.

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Drea


member
Location: Melbourne/Austin

Total posts: 18
Posted:there's waay too many topics in this thread for me to reply to.. I was going to pick at all of them, but fuckit.

Basically, (a while back) some Americans saw this post (and possibly? the world's anger) of US directed at American citizens. I don't think the world hates americans, rather the American government.
And I think many Americans also hate the US governement, but they can't voice their oppression right now.
Something MUST be said, however, for attitudes like 'the world is just jealous and they want to have as much money as us'
MONEY does not make happiness. Why do other cultures have to be westernized, have "progress"
blah... that's a whole other rant.

What I meant to rant about is that while Americans are not equated with the government, something must be said for the lack of opposition to gevernment policy. -MILLIONS of epople protested the G8 summit in Italy
I think we got about 100,000 in Washington on A20?

It's a start, but for public opinion (and also left-leaning internal opinion) to change about the US and US public, they have to take a stand against their government, which steals from 3rd world countries (in the form of laborours, or the afgani oil pipeline it started the war for) and which steals form them (end of the welfare state, etc) in order to keep the oligarchy that rules the US rich.

[/endrant]
and onto another topic of interest:

Because the FBI/CIA were unable to stop the bombing, the governemnt wants to extend FBI powers so that

(according to ACLU newletter:)
"the FBI is free to conduct undercover spying in
any house of worship or political group -- even if there is not a shred of
evidence that someone in the group has or plans to break the law. Further, the
FBI is also allowed to openly snoop through the Internet, credit card data and
such purchases as books and pharmacy items."

Americans think this is fucked? get on the ACLU newsletter and write your congressperson..
[/endrantagain]

~Drea


hmm.. am in a hippy mood:Reduce, Reuse, Recycle.

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Sepa


member
Location: London

Total posts: 184
Posted:Mike, you are spot on. That fundamental idea that everyone should be able to be what they want to be, as long as they hurt no one else is what makes the States a great nation. It's an alien idea for many cultures, but it's also contagious. It makes dictators and monarchs and organised religions very nervous.

That ideal falters often. It's subject to the winds of political change and of self-interest. It often doesn't seem to apply to anyone other than people from the US and it certainly doesn't apply to non-human species. The juggernaut that is the US policy machine is hard to manouvre and even harder to turn around even when there is a consensus for change.

And yet... and yet... as I said before, for all it's faults I'd still rather live in a world where the States is hedgemon.


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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)


Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Location: San Diego California

Total posts: 2905
Posted:I do believe that there is a need for police and police like agencies to be able to gather pertanent information for the publics safty. Should they be allowed to look at my credit card bill, or put cameras in my room? Hell no, but there is a need for allowing them to gather evidence and information especially if it stops another atrocity. Now of course this is on hell of a big IF. There is no garunte that all their spying can prevent anything, kinda a double edged sword aint it?

I do not think or pretend that money brings happyness, I am by no means rich (at least by American standerds) I make aprox 1.3k a month before taxes after taxes 1k. Though in comparison to some countries I am a rich Mo Fo. They do like to take advantage of this. The world does like American moneyh. In Thailand I payed 5x what a national would pay for a tuk tuk ride (taxi). That was my whole point the world loves our money but hates us, another interesting situation. They cry kill the American basterds, while holding out their hand for some good ole USA greeenbacks. To take a quote from a good ole Canadian artist "Isn't it ironic, don't ya think?"

If you want to go back to the way America was we would have to have Prayer in schools, rehang the Ten Comandments on court room walls. Out of all the founding fathers only three were not practicing Christians, this country was founded on the Bible and to say that we need to go back to the way it was and not return to the Bibles teachings is a contradiction.

America tried the live and let live idea and we got our Pacific Naval Fleet bombed back to the stone age. Since then America has held a pro-active stance in the world afairs.

To say that you should be able to do what ever you want as long as you dont hurt anybody is retarded, and thats how people die needlessly, if you have any questions about this look for my post called "Drugs dont hurt anybody!". That chick was just smoking crack not hurting anybody, it was her body!!

[ 13 June 2002, 03:53: Message edited by: Raymund Phule ]


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:Raymond, you don't understand "as long as you don't hurt anybody." That means that if your actions aren't hurting anyone else, then it should be OK.

So, to use the crack example. Her actions (driving on crack) WERE a risk to someone else. Had she done crack and stayed home, then she would not have been hurting everyone else.

I don't see how "live and let live" got us bombed. Unpreparedness, yes. Arranging the entire Pacific Fleet in a nice, straight line, yes. But not "live and let live."

There's a difference between being vigilant and detaining U.S. citizens indefinately without filing any charges.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:Raymond, you don't understand "as long as you don't hurt anybody." That means that if your actions aren't hurting anyone else, then it should be OK.

So, to use the crack example. Her actions (driving on crack) WERE a risk to someone else. Had she done crack and stayed home, then she would not have been hurting everyone else.

I don't see how "live and let live" got us bombed. Unpreparedness, yes. Arranging the entire Pacific Fleet in a nice, straight line, yes. But not "live and let live."

There's a difference between being vigilant and detaining U.S. citizens indefinately without filing any charges.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)


Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Location: San Diego California

Total posts: 2905
Posted:You are both right and wrong about Perl Harbor, we let the Japanese do what ever they wanted to do, IE live and let live. We were unprepared for what they wanted to do, this is very true.

Ok lets play hypothetical situation.

You and some buds got some off the good shiat, whatever the best kind of crack you can buy, who cares what it is, its not the point. Now can you honestly tell me that no matter how much crack you do you will never ever ever ever attempt to do anything that will hurt you or anybody?

Honestly I cant think of anyone who can say that they are in complete controle while under mind altering substances.

So weather or not you plan to stay home doesnt mean that you will, so why take the risk?

Are you that bored or addicted that you just dont give a damn about yourself or anyone else for that matter?


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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Drea


member
Location: Melbourne/Austin

Total posts: 18
Posted:quote:Originally posted by Raymund Phule:

I do believe that there is a need for police and police like agencies to be able to gather pertanent information for the publics safty. [cut] Hell no, but there is a need for allowing them to gather evidence and information especially if it stops another atrocity. Now of course this is on hell of a big IF. There is no garunte that all their spying can prevent anything, kinda a double edged sword aint it? And there is no guarantee that minimizing our freedom with ensure protection. I think this had been said before, but I'd rather have my freedoms and not this "increased security" which is not going to be able to stop everything, and which is going to make our daily lives worse.

quote: I do not think or pretend that money brings happyness, [cut] They do like to take advantage of this. The world does like American moneyh. In Thailand I payed 5x what a national would pay for a tuk tuk ride (taxi). That was my whole point the world loves our money but hates us, another interesting situation. They cry kill the American basterds, while holding out their hand for some good ole USA greeenbacks. perhaps they need the greenback because the US (or other foreign involvement) has made their country worse off than it had been before.. With colonisation (and current imperialism), the labour and resources of "Third World" countries have been pilaged by the "First World" so we can get cheap consumer goods, and then big corporations can make a huge profit. I do not advocate a return to pre-colonial, pre-capitalist society, however I do believe that there is another alternative other than US companies (like Nike) paying shit wages in sweathsops in SouthEast Asia.
Of course they want your money because they need to feed their children; or perhaps because they want that lovely widget that american advertising tells them they so desperatly need.
But if American advertisisng WASN'T in there, if the American-run World Bank and IMF didn't push these countries FURTHER into debt, perhaps they would be happier, hating America less, and not needing your greenback as much.

quote: America tried the live and let live idea and we got our Pacific Naval Fleet bombed back to the stone age. Since then America has held a pro-active stance in the world afairs. Now, early US History is not my forte, bu there are some who say that the US knew about the attack and let it occur because they wanted to get into the war. But, I'm not going to get into this discussion, because I don't really know that much about the US pre-WWII. I DO know, however, that the US *MYTH* about non-involvement is precisely that. Since the foundation of that country, the US has been imperialistic, trying to gain more and more land (w/in the current US and territories) and in Latin America. They had a "sphere of influence" in Latin America well before WWII

quote: And yet... and yet... as I said before, for all it's faults I'd still rather live in a world where the States is hedgemon.that's because YOU are at the top of it.
That seems a bit selfish and self-serving; Realize that for the US to be "#1" it has to keep other down. This is accomplished by pretty much stealing their oil (as the case in afghanistan, wehere the US wanted access to a pipeline), or in the form of US corporation (as I've already stated) which pretty much engage in slave labor.

Which reminds me of this great shirt around here where "slavery" has a Nike swoosh as a 'v'. heh, it's great. (the shirt, not the fact that Nike is)

~Drea

[ 13 June 2002, 17:59: Message edited by: Drea ]


hmm.. am in a hippy mood:Reduce, Reuse, Recycle.

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Sepa


member
Location: London

Total posts: 184
Posted:Drea, you're right that I am predisposed to like this world because I'm at the top of it, but you are wrong when you imply that the US (and capitalism and economic development) has done nothing for the developing world.

Economic development, spurred on by capitalism has actually lifted enormous numbers of people out of the worst depths of poverty and raised the majority of the worlds' living standards, as evidenced by life expectancy (pre-AIDS), education levels, social mobility etc for instance. That is true, although it is fashionable for a lot of people in the West to deny this. Many of those 'sweat shops' in places like South East Asia are responsible for giving a lot of people a higher standard of living and greater choices of how they can live their lives because they spend their time earning money rather than, for instance, subsistence farming. Of course not everyone wins, and a lot of people do feel trapped, but an awful lot more don't - they feel empowered because they have choices jangling in their pockets, particularly the women.

I would like to say that I am talking about the mid-range here. I'm talking about countries like Indonesia (which I know well) and Malaysia and China and India (which I know from my reading). I am not talking about war ravaged Africa or Central Asia. I know that in Indonesia and Malaysia and China and India that there are still a lot of very, very poor people who have very few life choices, but I am saying that economic development and the movement to a money economy has helped an enormous number of people in the middle of that society. I know, I have seen them.


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Spiral


Spiral

Oolering Man
Location: Farnborough, Hampshire

Total posts: 729
Posted:what I would like to know (and to any Irish people here I don't want to offend) Is what Osama Bin Laden did in the states is no different to what the IRA have been doing scince the 70's. Where are all the blackhawks dropping in delta force to hunt out and kill gerry adams? Whoops sorry, I forgot, you still have IRA fundraisers in boston dont you?

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Dom
BRONZE Member since Dec 2001

Dom

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Bristol, UK

Total posts: 3009
Posted:Long thread, very busy.

Drea's making a lot of sense.

Ray: "In Thailand I payed 5x what a national would pay for a tuk tuk ride (taxi)."
Unfortunately this is counteracted by Western currency speculators who helped devalue the Thai economy. Made a fortune for Western banks. But in Thailand casues a recession, and child prostitution went up 20%. Children get raped as a result of Western companies making profits. Sickening isn't it?

There's lots of history here in the UK about people who worked in Victorian times in factories under terrible conditions. However those conditions still exist in places like Indonesia.

I'm currently reading "The New Rulers of the World" by John Pilger. A bit extreme and leftist, but points out a lot of good information, and his research is indepth and personal, so I'd recomend it to people for a read about one side of the discussion. (Anyway, perfectly balanced books are rare)

I'd love to write and essay or 2, but got to get back to wrok.

"We must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence by the military industrial complex.
"The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist. We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes.
"We should take nothing for granted. Only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals, so that security and liberty may prosper together..."
President Eisenhower,


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Spiral


Spiral

Oolering Man
Location: Farnborough, Hampshire

Total posts: 729
Posted:......but, thats not your fault, so why am I banging on?

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:quote:Originally posted by Raymund Phule:


Ok lets play hypothetical situation.

You and some buds got some off the good shiat, whatever the best kind of crack you can buy, who cares what it is, its not the point. Now can you honestly tell me that no matter how much crack you do you will never ever ever ever attempt to do anything that will hurt you or anybody?

Honestly I cant think of anyone who can say that they are in complete controle while under mind altering substances.
Ok, but by that logic, we should ban skydiving because you might fall on someone. And we should ban alcohol because people drink and drive. And we should ban fishing because you might put someone's eye out with the hook.

These prohibitions that we have, once had, and/or are trying to institute are all being done obstensible reasons that are reasonable. But when you look at how those very arguments could be applied, we see that there's a double standard.

Drugs cause this, that, and the other thing. But alcohol is OK. Double standard. If there's one thing that my medical training has shown me, it's that alcohol is a drug, and one of the worst ones out there. I don't drink for the same reasons that I don't do cocaine or heroin. The only difference is that small doses of alcohol are easier to measure and have small effects. But I see no major difference between an alcoholic and a crack-head. The wetware is the same.

No, they want marijuana banned (and lumped into the same category as heroin) because they don't approve of that form of recreation. They are imposing their view of how people should behave on others. It has nothing to do with safety or health. There are plenty of good reasons to ban marijuana, but every one of those reasons necessarily calls for the prohibition of tobacco and alcohol, as well.

But this isn't a drug debate. It's about liberty. Drugs are only one example. What about flag burning? Aren't we supposed to have free speech? Then why do people keep trying to ban flag burning? Because they don't like flag burning, that's why. There's no good reason to ban it other than these people want to impose their will on others.

How about prayer in schools? Or teaching Biblical creation? This isn't a Christian nation. Never was. Hell, we signed a treaty with Tripoli in the late 1700's that said that. But people are trying to mandate the way that people pray.

And there are other things that are perfectly legal and actually do cause a lot of harm. Boxing, football (we glorify these sports where people go out there and intentionally try to hurt each-other), adultery, etc.

If you go to, say, Canada, and walk around, you see that people mind their own business a lot more. They aren't so concerned with what other people are doing. This isn't just some vague impression of mine, but rather this is something that I have noticed having grown up right on the Canada/U.S. border. They aren't full of false puritans like we are. They aren't constantly using their ideologies as battering rams to force others to conform. Maybe it's because it's a smaller country and people there need each-other and have to find commonalities, rather than focusing on differences. But in the U.S. we focus on the differences and we single people out for them.

That behavior has made us the target of these terrorist attacks and that behavior is one of the reasons why we are no longer the freest nation on Earth.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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bender
GOLD Member since Nov 2001

still can't believe it's not butter
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Total posts: 6979
Posted:How long will it take for us to realise what's at stake?

"We must learn to live together as brothers or perish together as fools."
-Martin Luther King J.R.


Laugh Often, Smile Much, Post lolcats Always

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)


Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Posted:With my hypothetical situation I was asking you to look inwerd and ask yourself, do I know for sure that if I do get jacked up, will I not never no how get in a car and drive or something else like that? Clean and sober you will probably say that when you are high you are in perfect controle but when you are high on crack or mind altering substances (alcohol) are you realy in controle or is the substance?

No no no there is a difference between drugs and burning a flag, I am sorry if it had to come down to it I would vote drugs leagle before burning a flag. That flag is the symbol for this country, if you dont like the count get out! The only reason why a flag should be burnt is if it has been soild, or is tatterd and worn beyond servicablility. Speek all you want but flag burning is not speech it is burning a flag, speech is done in writing or vocaly not in actions, otherwise I could go on a killing spree targeting new born babies and call it free speech!

Look if you really want to leagleise drugs go ahead I aint here to stop you and I wont partake even if they were leagle but, you dont change the law by breaking it. I dont understand why that doesnt get through some of the thick skulls out there. You partician, protest, write letters to congressmen but you do not break the law to change the law.

You are wrong about this country not being based on the Christian faith. Need I remind you of the Pledge of Aligence (sorry I dun spell to well) they tought you in school "One nation under God". The Christian faith is the only one that just says God, every one else uses a name, I.E. Alah, Buda. I'll look up some more facts on this particuler topic and get back to you on them. Trust me there is more evidence that says America was built on the Bible but I cant recall it all right now.

You took things a bit out of preportion, Mike, but heck its not like I have never done that.


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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Dom
BRONZE Member since Dec 2001

Dom

Carpal \'Tunnel
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Posted:Wasn't one of the founding principles also seperation of church and state?

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)


Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Posted:Actually Dom, just gimme a little while I will get some info on you about that, in the meantime check it.

Abraham Lincoln (once again I only speek English I dont clame to write it hehe) said "The philosiphy in the school room of one gereation will be the philosiphy in the court room in the next." If you take a look at history once the Bible was removed from the class room, America started its down hill spiral.


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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SmallBoy - x


SmallBoy - x

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Location: London

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Posted:Sorry, I'm not going to get involved in this discussion as it's far topo deep and meaningful (and i couldn't be arsed to give in-depth concentration to what everyone's written), especially as it has many deep rooted opinions etc...
However...
quote:Originally Posted by Raymund Phule

"Yes America trained OSB and others to fight against a corrupt comunisitic government, did we ever in our wildest dreams think it would come back to take the worlds largest dump on us like this? NO" Hahahahahahahahahahaha
**UNcontrollable laughing fit**
- how many times is it going to take???????
But it isn't just you, many countries do this.
If you are going to train people to kill, they are going to kill. Since the American Nation are always going to be a symbol of rich people and power, even if you forget how they (and other western countries obviously) have helped brutally wreck economies of other countries to further their own.
Hence sooner or later, you are going to be on the receiving end of the hate, the anger, and the new found power/weaponry of the poorer countries.
Most countries populations out there do not have access to a balanced and unbiased point of view, therefore the nation will be ready to die for what the leaders of the country beleive.....Bummer eh?
Training them up to defend themselves against "Communist" countries, is a short sighted step to defending your own country (and nothing more) and in the long run it's going to bite you on your ass.


Small Lardy Person In Disguise

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SmallBoy - x


SmallBoy - x

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Posted:Oh and all governments are corrupt in some way, because people will always be greedy and lead it that way. Ours is pretty bad, but some countries I just wouldn't wanna live in.

Small Lardy Person In Disguise

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Dom
BRONZE Member since Dec 2001

Dom

Carpal \'Tunnel
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Posted:Ray, isn't it part of the first amendment? Lincoln was big on it as well.

One of the things I hate is that bible bashers think that without religion we're doomed to be evil and unmoralistic. Load of nonsense. It's when people stop respecting each other that things go to hell.


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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)


Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Posted:Well Dom, I think the America has gone down hill dramaticly since the Bible from the class room. You can hate Christians all you want but you can not argue with history bud. Take a look, teen sex has skyrocketed, alcohol abuse has skyrocketed, rape, murder. Do I need to keep going or do you get the point?

That was put in the Constitution to prevent what happend in Europe where the Cathlic church basicly took over the government, not to make it illeagle to pray in a public school! You seem to be so antichristian, is there a reason for this, or are you just predgudise agains Christians?

Small Boy, I am about to get just down right unsociable with you.

All I got from your post was that you think its funny that some guy we trained turned and killed thousands of Americans. Is that what you ment, because if it does, we are gonna need a Mod in here quick fast and in a hurry!

[ 15 June 2002, 05:05: Message edited by: Raymund Phule ]


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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JohnSmith


member
Location: Canada

Total posts: 28
Posted:Your still here eh Phule?

lol..


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Kyrian


Dreamer
Location: York, England

Total posts: 4308
Posted:btw, fyi, "One Nation Under God" was added about 1950.... sure, "founding principle," right.....

now, i won't argue that "freedom of religion" at the time really meant freedom to choose your sect of christianity. That perhaps that's what the foudning fathers thought they were saying. But it does say ... freedom of religion... which means any... and which has been more recently translated freedom from religion, which i agree with...

teaching religion has no place in schools... however, children should still have freedom of expression of religion... none of this not diplaying painted pictures of jesus crap.. that's b.s....

you can pray in school. but you can't lead the classroom in a prayer. if that's how it's working, that's how it should be. I have many many friends who arn't christian and who have very strong morals. Some friends even who arn't religious and have very strong morals.

And I know plenty of christians that only pay lip service to what their religion really is.

so no, i don't think that religion is going to solve or not solve anything. It's teaching children respect for others and coexistence and how to make good choices. Not temple marriages or keeping sabbath or confirmation or bar and bat mitzvahs.

you can do that with religion. you can also do that without.

when america was founded slavery was legal. only white male landowners could vote. Jefferson sired illegitimate slave children.

sure, it was better.

ever read chaucer? (lets go back even further...)

society doesn't change much. what changes is how well informed we are about it.

sorry for the rant guys.

Peace & Love
Kyrian


Keep your dream alive
Dreamin is still how the strong survive

Shalom VeAhavah

New Hampshire has a point....

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NYC


NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA

Total posts: 9232
Posted:OK Ray, if you'd like to put the Christian bible back in my class room would certainly help me out quite a bit. Also, after bussing out all of the Jews, athiests, Muslims and people with other religious beliefs to the concentration camps my class sizes would be much smaller as well. I'd have so much fewer papers to grade.

In all seriousness, as someone who is so proud to be free I'm truely surprised that you would be for mandating God in the classroom. It goes directly against the founding principles of our country. Don't I, as a free American, have a right to worship or not worship my God wherever I'd like or not like to? America was founded by those escaping the same religious persecution you're advocating.

I'm really surprised.

Of course the "good old days" were fantastic for white men like us. You could beat your wife without any recourse, you always got a seat on the front of the bus, all of the dangerous work would be done by those dirty immigrants for pennies.

If you really think that this is the worse that history has been, you don't know your history very well. Teen sex, alcohol abuse, rape, and murder were much higher when the US constitution was signed then it is right now.

I DON'T mean to come across as confrontational, and I do know that you take great pride in this country. I do too. I just that some of your pride comes across as facism when others are being mandated to have the same beliefs at you (which you're suggesting by putting a single bible into classrooms)... My favorite part of this country IS the diversity of thoughs, religions, and beliefs.


Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:Ray, crime has dropped and teen pregnancy has dropped. Shocked me, too.

But the big deal is this: I'm Jewish. So's the rest of my family. When my grandfather was in school, he was made to pray to Jesus in his school. His mother had to tell him every day when he came home that he wasn't a Christian and that he should mouth the prayers. But he got whipped when he got caught. Supposedly it was for "disobedience," but really, it was because he was Jewish.

My mother did not have to pray in school, but people knew she was Jewish. And every so often, she'd have to flee from boys throwing rocks and calling her a "dirty Jew."

I grew up in a community where over half the kids in my school were Jewish. We also had a bunch of Hindus and Muslims. Christians were by far the minority. Prayer in the classroom? Would have been a disaster.

Sorry, let's keep organized prayer in houses of worship, not in the classroom.

As I've said, I have nothing against Christians. I think it's a beautiful religion. I only have a problem when "Christians" decide that I need to be a Christian, also, even if mandated by law.

THAT'S unamerican.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)


Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Location: San Diego California

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Posted:I could make a post with swear words up the ying yang and not catch as much flack for it as I have for simply stating fact like since 1950whatever the US has gone down hill, because of the removal of the bible from the school room.

If any of you bright ones out there can find where I said Christians are perfect and they all follow the Bible to the "T" please let me know.

So now that we have established that everyone is not perfect, let us move on.

Crime teen pregnancy is going down in comparison to a few years ago but look at say 50 years ago it is still way the heck up there!

Well what about the town of Muleshoe Texas (small town near my home town in New Mexico) they banned prayer before football games, basically making to where a christian can not get other christians together to pray before a game!

I dont want you or anyone else MikeGinny to be a Christian, that is something the Catholic curch tried way back when, then again I consider the Catholic church different from a Christian church but if you want to know why PM me.

I AM NOT SAYING YOU HAVE TO BE A CHRISTIAN, I AM JUST SAYING THAT SINCE THE BIBLE WAS REMOVED FROM THE CLASSROOM CRIME AND OTHER THINGS HAVE GONE WAY WAY WAY WAY WAY WAY UP!!! YOU PEOPLE READ SO FAR INTO THINGS ITS SICKENING!!

*catches breath*

I never ever ever said people were perfect or this country was perfectly founded on God, but when the constitution was based mainly on the bible, that is a fact and let me e-mail home tonight to get a copy of what I need to prove that all to you.

You people are so scared that the Bible might say that your doing something wrong that you curse and bring up everyone that has sinned. Look in your mirror I do every day, I see things that I am not proud of but I deal with it. So should you!


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:quote:Originally posted by Raymund Phule:


You people are so scared that the Bible might say that your doing something wrong that you curse and bring up everyone that has sinned. Look in your mirror I do every day, I see things that I am not proud of but I deal with it. So should you!Ray, the Bible doesn't scare me. I am well aware that I do many things that aren't Biblical. I've read it cover to cover. Old and New Testament.

What scares me is that people keep trying to pass Biblical laws.

We have to accept that a moral society and a free society are mutually exclusive. That's because morals are diverse in this diverse country. And that means accepting that people are going to do things that you will find morally repugnant. The key is remembering that if it's not hurting you, then you shouldn't be concerned with it.

And I have yet to see good statistics that can link prayer in school with crime.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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NYC


NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA

Total posts: 9232
Posted:I've stepped back a bit from my opinion to reflect on the discussion itself...

I think that Mike and I are taking offense (in a rational and conversational sense, not a personal offense) to the suggestion that "America going downhill" occured BECAUSE the bible was removed from the classroom. Which is clearly what you implied.

What the phrase "Bible in the classroom" means to me is the following:

Every American is mandated to pay taxes. A portion of taxes goes towards education and schools. A portion of that money or resources would then obviously go towards advocating religion to ALL children. Either a single religion is advocated ie: "Everyone bow their heads and pray to Jesus" (which is pure facism) and I don't think anybody here is suggesting... at least I hope not. Or, a vague unspecified, nondenominational prayer time/class is set aside. Either way, you are suggesting that every child believe in God in some form, reguardless of what they, themselves, or their families believe.

I, as a self proclaimed advocate of children, believe that a child has a right not to believe in God. And to be educated in a setting free from religious influence or advertising. This includes ANY religion. I don't think anyone here is attacking Christianity and I think the arguement would be the same if any religion were to be used.

Religious freedom IS one of the founding principles of our country. That's exactly WHY chirch and state were separated. Our founding fathers were specifically shielding us from the exact governmental/religious medling that they were fleeing from.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."

This means that any child can pray in school individualy and that prayer is protected by his right of free speech BUT organized and endorsed prayer is not.

It's also the first ammendment.


Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)


Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

Enter a "Title" here:
Location: San Diego California

Total posts: 2905
Posted:NYC, you understood a part of what I ment, not quite all, allow me to clarify. I do not mean force the Christian religion on people, heavens no that is not how its supossed to work. I mean use the Bible as a basis for establishing a right and wrong mindset in young children, also there is no other history book out there that is as detailed as the Bible (from a unreligius prespective). If you do not want to be a Christian I have pitty for you but it is your choice, I dont want it to be forced on people.

MikeGinny, the majority of laws today are Biblical Laws. IE Murder, Stealing, Adultry, just to name a few.


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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Kyrian


Dreamer
Location: York, England

Total posts: 4308
Posted:why use the bible?

I think there's a lot of bad morality going on in the bible. (thinking of one story in particular even but i can't think of the name.)

If your suggesting use the way Jesus lived as a staring point for morality, then i have much less trouble with it. But rather than teaching it as Jesus (something a lot of people might have a problem with) why not teach it as - just that- morality? Things like the golden rule and loving other people. You don't have to use the bible as a starting point. Use love and kindness and good examples.

And I think I already mentioned that this country was founded with at the very least lip-service to christian values.

like NYC said, i think it's the idea that the removle of the bible form school CAUSED thing to get worse, or at least look worse in statistics and the news, is what bothers us.

there's a lot of other forces at work in those time periods.


Keep your dream alive
Dreamin is still how the strong survive

Shalom VeAhavah

New Hampshire has a point....

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Aurora (1/2 a firesister)
GOLD Member since Jan 2002

enthusiast
Location: Canada, Ontario, Toronto

Total posts: 249
Posted:I think that it wasn't specifically the removal of the bible that "caused America to go downhill" but rather that was an indication of the decline of a communal faith....and everyone started branching out in so many different ways that things got ummm...deconcentrated. People didn't have a place to relieve their fears, find solace, find peace and comfort. Everyone was out there on their own trying to figure it out-everyone became an atheist-but when did believing in nothing ever get you anywhere but in trouble. Faith is the absolute backbone of all human existence-without which people wouldn't care about the future. So we don't all have to believe in the same thing but we all need something to believe in.

On a side note: In my elementary school every morning after singing the national anthem over the loud speaker one student was permitted to do a morning reading. Could be anything: prayer, quote, passage from a book. They just had to explain where it came from..and quickly what it was about if it wasn't obvious. My school was VERY multicultural-anyways it was neat cause it instilled appreciation for all people in me when I was very young. I am grateful for everything I learned in those first few minutes of school and all the different gods that were brought into my classroom


Om Namah Sivaya

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