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Login/Join to ParticipatePosted:Was just wondering what the reaction is in the United States to the new action where men of Middle Eastern appearance who are entering the US will be treated differently than everyone else.
I'm not in the country right now, but am shocked about this turn of events.
I knew shit was FUCKED in that country, but this takes the fucking cake. (Not that it's worse than other things, but that it is *blatantly* unconstitutional)
I know the ACLU is in uproar about this, but I'm not sure how much media attention they get.
Anyone on a college campus - any protests there?
I am REALLY not looking forward to going back to that right-wing hellhole.
~Drea
I'm not in the country right now, but am shocked about this turn of events.
I knew shit was FUCKED in that country, but this takes the fucking cake. (Not that it's worse than other things, but that it is *blatantly* unconstitutional)
I know the ACLU is in uproar about this, but I'm not sure how much media attention they get.
Anyone on a college campus - any protests there?
I am REALLY not looking forward to going back to that right-wing hellhole.
~Drea
hmm.. am in a hippy mood:Reduce, Reuse, Recycle.
Delete TopicDoc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001
![Doc Lightning]()
HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Total posts: 13920
GOLD Member since May 2001
HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Total posts: 13920
Posted:I was dating a Muslim girl when the September 11 attacks happened. We stopped going out later on for totally unrelated reasons.
Anyways, on September 15, her mother, a U.S. Citizen and M.D. who wears a head scarf, was attacked by tthree men in their early 20's in a Wal-Mart. They called her a "fucking rag head bitch" and threw her into a clothing rack. She started screaming for help and the brave men who attacked the manacing, 5-foot, 50-year-old woman turned and ran. They were never caught. I think that nobody really wanted to catch them. Fortunately, she suffered only bumps and bruises.
For a while, men of Middle-Eastern descent were being thrown off flights with no evidence. Some of them were even airline employees. It recalls to me when the Germans banned Jews from riding trains.
I believe in the philosophy of "live free or die" That means that I will live free or I will die. I will not relinquish my freedom in exchange for security because I know that I will get neither. But my chickenshit fellow citizens are content to give up the very freedoms that made us the great country that we once were so that they can feel safer.
The result is that we're no safer than we were before, but we're not nearly as free.
God Save America.
Anyways, on September 15, her mother, a U.S. Citizen and M.D. who wears a head scarf, was attacked by tthree men in their early 20's in a Wal-Mart. They called her a "fucking rag head bitch" and threw her into a clothing rack. She started screaming for help and the brave men who attacked the manacing, 5-foot, 50-year-old woman turned and ran. They were never caught. I think that nobody really wanted to catch them. Fortunately, she suffered only bumps and bruises.
For a while, men of Middle-Eastern descent were being thrown off flights with no evidence. Some of them were even airline employees. It recalls to me when the Germans banned Jews from riding trains.
I believe in the philosophy of "live free or die" That means that I will live free or I will die. I will not relinquish my freedom in exchange for security because I know that I will get neither. But my chickenshit fellow citizens are content to give up the very freedoms that made us the great country that we once were so that they can feel safer.
The result is that we're no safer than we were before, but we're not nearly as free.
God Save America.
-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella
"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura
Posted:I'm not really sure if I can accurately describe the anger, embarassment, rage, pity that I have for a lot of the ignorant Americans who have crawled out of the woodwork lately. I have several close middle eastern friends who have always had to put up with a little bit of racisim occasionally but things have gotten way out of hand...While out shopping with my roommate who is from Egypt a few weeks ago I noticed a lot of dirty looks not only to him but to me too, like I was incahoots with the enemy or some crap. He was in New York at the time of the attack, what he had to deal with from both police and civilians totally blows my mind....
As far as I know, there are not any protests going on here, but I have heard of some elsehwere.
I could go on and on about the struggles that my muslim friends have been going through and the fear and the guilt that they have to deal with on a day to day basis.
It hurts me to think that we as Americans pride ourselves on being acceptive of diversity but we are so quick to take away others rights of freedom simply because of their ethnic background.
As far as I know, there are not any protests going on here, but I have heard of some elsehwere.
I could go on and on about the struggles that my muslim friends have been going through and the fear and the guilt that they have to deal with on a day to day basis.
It hurts me to think that we as Americans pride ourselves on being acceptive of diversity but we are so quick to take away others rights of freedom simply because of their ethnic background.
Life is serious, but art is fun!
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Posted:Wow, I'm jealous that you live in such an Utopian and Welcoming community as Austrailia.
I'm not sure where you got your facts about this "action" but the "action" is based solely upon which country the individual is from, not the looks. A religious muslum from India would have much less trouble getting into the country than one from Iraq. And I agree with that.
As for the troubling acts of racism... The acts of a racist few psychopaths shouldn't allow others to generalize a country. I don't think Jews or Arabs or Blacks or any other minority group are being treated any more or less horribly than they have been in the last 10 years in the US. Now, instead of the news covering the Black teenager who was beaten by the cops, it's covering the Arabic teenager who was beaten by some white kids. It's just the flavor of the month.
I'm not disagreeing with you Drea, it is horrible, but there are no unconstitutional laws or acts or actions in place as far as I know. I don't think that US law enforcement is harassing Arabs more this year then they harassed blacks last year or Mexicans the year before. Is it HORRIBLE AND OUTRAGEOUS? Absolutely. Is it worse than any other country has handled similar circumstances? No.
I actually think that the US is handling it better and with more delicacy and human right consideration than it has in the past. Is the US a horrible, violent, racist, nationalist, ignorant country? Yup. Just like everywhere else. Does that justify it? No, but it does make it a global issue, not just an American issue.
I'm not sure where you got your facts about this "action" but the "action" is based solely upon which country the individual is from, not the looks. A religious muslum from India would have much less trouble getting into the country than one from Iraq. And I agree with that.
As for the troubling acts of racism... The acts of a racist few psychopaths shouldn't allow others to generalize a country. I don't think Jews or Arabs or Blacks or any other minority group are being treated any more or less horribly than they have been in the last 10 years in the US. Now, instead of the news covering the Black teenager who was beaten by the cops, it's covering the Arabic teenager who was beaten by some white kids. It's just the flavor of the month.
I'm not disagreeing with you Drea, it is horrible, but there are no unconstitutional laws or acts or actions in place as far as I know. I don't think that US law enforcement is harassing Arabs more this year then they harassed blacks last year or Mexicans the year before. Is it HORRIBLE AND OUTRAGEOUS? Absolutely. Is it worse than any other country has handled similar circumstances? No.
I actually think that the US is handling it better and with more delicacy and human right consideration than it has in the past. Is the US a horrible, violent, racist, nationalist, ignorant country? Yup. Just like everywhere else. Does that justify it? No, but it does make it a global issue, not just an American issue.
Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]
Posted:very well said NYC.
although I don't really see to much middle eastern bashing except for stuff like "I hate bin laden" and "f*** the taliban" which of course I dont agree with because I dont believe it had anything to do with bin laden or the taliban, but thats neither here or now. most people where I live suprisingly haven't turned their hatred toward the middle easterners. of course they still are mad and just give the mexican-americans more crap to deal with, but I think they're going to always treat the mexicans poorly over anyone else.
proud to be un-american
although I don't really see to much middle eastern bashing except for stuff like "I hate bin laden" and "f*** the taliban" which of course I dont agree with because I dont believe it had anything to do with bin laden or the taliban, but thats neither here or now. most people where I live suprisingly haven't turned their hatred toward the middle easterners. of course they still are mad and just give the mexican-americans more crap to deal with, but I think they're going to always treat the mexicans poorly over anyone else.
proud to be un-american
you can't have a war against terrorism because war IS terrorism.it's not about worshipping fire. its about making the fire want to worship you.
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Posted:Well I must admit the things that happend tothe "Middle Eastern looking people" is really messed up. Now as a patriotical person I feel that everything that happens to those who happen to be muslim and are of middle eastern decent is one of the most fucked up things to happen this century! Yes I do enjoy a good I hate Bin Ladin song as much as the next guy, but that does not mean that I think attacking Muslims or Middle Easterners is the right thing to do.
However, you must see that the reaction that the country had was a very very mild one in comparison to what happend a few years ago with Rodney King (we all remember those riots) and with over 50 years ago when the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor (Japnese and Aisian looking people were sent to camps tword the center of America).
I dont think it is right to say Americans lashed out or hated all muslims or Middle Easterners, look at how many Mosks in America were shot at or blown up... 0
Maybe America aint as fucked up as alot of people think. Maybe we are slowly learning some things.
However, you must see that the reaction that the country had was a very very mild one in comparison to what happend a few years ago with Rodney King (we all remember those riots) and with over 50 years ago when the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor (Japnese and Aisian looking people were sent to camps tword the center of America).
I dont think it is right to say Americans lashed out or hated all muslims or Middle Easterners, look at how many Mosks in America were shot at or blown up... 0
Maybe America aint as fucked up as alot of people think. Maybe we are slowly learning some things.
Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"
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Posted:okay, now, i'm as red blooded american as they come... let me tell you that there are just as many americans as aware of the simple truth as in any other country in the world. the truth being the fact that none of this "war" or "terrorism" or "communism" or "superior race" or "war to end all wars" or "roman glory" has any thing to do with anything besides money, and lack of spritual wisdom. and a lot of us are trying to make it better by being good people, but the trouble is we are not the ones who can do much about it. we've been at it for centuries. in the u.s., just like everywhere else in the world, the minority makes the money and causes the suffering, and the majority is too wrapped into the matrix to do anything about it...the sad thing is most everybody knows it sucks. and they just don't get it. there are no territorial lines on the worlwide map of suckers.
-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.
Posted:Racism comes in all shapes and forms, unfortunately. I think we tend to notice it when it's in the news or it affects someone close to us - a couple of years ago my cousin (of West Indian descent) was interrogated for two hours in Chicago airport and another couple of hours in Vancouver airport on his way home to Halifax from Thailand. Ridiculous, it wouldn't have happened to a white guy, but there you go.
I have a friend who was up on his third violence charge (he can't control his drinking) and his solicitor told him to pack his bags before the sentencing because he was definately going to go to jail. He got off with community service. It wouldn't have happened for a black guy, but there you go again.
I have a friend who was up on his third violence charge (he can't control his drinking) and his solicitor told him to pack his bags before the sentencing because he was definately going to go to jail. He got off with community service. It wouldn't have happened for a black guy, but there you go again.
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Posted:US passport control seems to be really bad, very self-important. I have great fun getting into the States. I was born in Dubai and have dual British/Maltese nationality (Malta was great friends with Libya a while ago and is still the main route in and out of Libya to the west). It's really hard keeping a straight face when some pompous, officious, jumped up office clerk at passport control asks you questions like "Do you have any relatives or contacts in the Middle East?" and "Are you a member of a religious or fundamentalist group?". I was once at the desk for 15 minutes because they wanted to know all about my family history and what I'd done for the last 25 years!
So I pity anyone that comes from an Arab country, looks Arab and has to face US passport control. Paranoia destroys people and freedom, but is a very powerful force.
So I pity anyone that comes from an Arab country, looks Arab and has to face US passport control. Paranoia destroys people and freedom, but is a very powerful force.
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Posted:We all know how fuked up an individuals view on equality can be. So why do we keep forgetting?
NYC is right, and I've said it many times, you can't generalise the attitudes of an entire country.
Think about media coverage. Being from an English speaking country, I'm fully aware of the heavy American influences in all aspects of the Media.
Whats going on in America is shite, but it seems worse because we see more of it.
-My GOD...I've had far too heavy a weekend too be able to say anything relevant.....
B4 I go tho,..
With the whole September 11 thing, and the American Government,.. and BUSH.. Anyone else here stricken with the 'Problem Creation, to Supply a Solution' idea..?...
Give me yo' thoughts..
NYC is right, and I've said it many times, you can't generalise the attitudes of an entire country.
Think about media coverage. Being from an English speaking country, I'm fully aware of the heavy American influences in all aspects of the Media.
Whats going on in America is shite, but it seems worse because we see more of it.
-My GOD...I've had far too heavy a weekend too be able to say anything relevant.....
B4 I go tho,..
With the whole September 11 thing, and the American Government,.. and BUSH.. Anyone else here stricken with the 'Problem Creation, to Supply a Solution' idea..?...
Give me yo' thoughts..
Az abouve, So below...
DeletePosted:All I have to say is that even though thousands of Americans were killed on September 11, the reason why I cried that night while watching those buildings fall was because of the realisation about, in human suffering terms, how insignificant this event actually was compared to the horrific actrocities Amercia has caused directly and indirectly all around the world in the name of "American Freedom". What makes me cry today is that my country, Australia, is becoming more and more 'American' with events like its turning of a blind eye to East Timor while villagers were massacred by militia with machetes. The only reason Australia stepped in was because of oil interests in the Timor Sea. If it were because of humanitarian motives then why step in so late?? These actions are way too American for my liking.
Fuck those dirty Arabs who feel their message is so important that innocent people must die for it.
Fuck Australia for not having the balls to say suck my one eyed snake to America.
And most of all fuck America for being the most arrogant, hipocritcal country on Earth.
Damn the world has a fucking long way to go.
Fuck those dirty Arabs who feel their message is so important that innocent people must die for it.
Fuck Australia for not having the balls to say suck my one eyed snake to America.
And most of all fuck America for being the most arrogant, hipocritcal country on Earth.
Damn the world has a fucking long way to go.
HOW TO FLY 101:
step 1. Throw your self at the ground.
step 2. Miss.
Posted:You are just ignorant to blame America for all your problems. Just shut the hell up and go back to what ever it is you do. If you feel the need to blame America for something then blame it for helping out the earthquake victims or sending food to Ethiopia. True America can do more in some areas and should do less in others but who are you to say this? Have we oppresed you in some way? You must be hurting to have access to an American made computer (though probably constructed in Tiwann or something). Hell if it wasnt for America would there be a computer or an internet? Even a car? America aint perfect but then again show me a perfect country I fucking dare you!! But since there is no perfect countries that must be Americas fault right??
Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"
DeletePosted:I think the rest of the world has a really mixed attitude to the States because it's world hegemon (sp?). Personally, I like living in a world where the States is hedgemon (I really can't work out how to spell this word!) but there are a lot of people out there who don't - and I'm talking in Asia, the Middle East, and Africa.
Most of the world loves US culture and technology, the US is the driving force for the globalisation that (this is true, people, don't go flaming me) has lifted more people out of poverty and (AIDS excepted) given them longer lifespans all around the world. US cultural icons are aspired to all around the world - travelling tells you that.
So why the bad feeling? I guess it's natural to resent something which has so much power which, not unnaturally, has been wielded in that powers' interests, often to the detriment of others.
Raymond, it is natural to get defensive about attacks on your country, but I think you are being a little hasty as the charge of hypocrisy is not unjustified.
The cold war was fought by proxy in many different parts of the world, including South America, in South East Asia, in Afghanistan and Central Asia, and let us never forget the messes in Africa. The US holds up to the world it's democratic political processes saying "here, this is what you should be aspiring to" and then supporting some very nasty regimes in other parts of the world when it suited it. Sure, it prevented Armageddon, but in the process millions of lives were blighted. Is that not hypocritical?
At the present point in time, the States is the sole hedgemon. Until Sept 11 it really did look like the States was turning it's back on the world, refusing to uphold some of its multi-lateral obligations, and refusing to enter into new ones. Although the US ideologically is very 'liberal' economically as well as politically, it is only 'liberal' when it comes to what is in it's interests. Free trade, a cornerstone of liberal economic thought, quickly falls by the wayside when US interests are threatened - most recently anti-dumping tarriffs have been slapped on steel imports to prop up the extremely inefficient US steel industry, and tarriffs have also been slapped on farm imports, the one area where free trade really can make a difference to the poorer countries of the world. Is that not hypocritical too?
And yet, I feel in some way that I'm carping. When I think of alternative hedgemons - China, USSR, Nazi Germany, Imperial Japan, I am devoutly thankful that such liberal minded people decided to settle and claim for themselves the incredibly bountiful piece of land that is the central part of North America so that they could use those natural riches to develop world dominating power.
It's a tough job, but somebody has to do it!
Sorry, I know this is a really long post, but you guys are so good at bringing out the hidden political economist in me!
Most of the world loves US culture and technology, the US is the driving force for the globalisation that (this is true, people, don't go flaming me) has lifted more people out of poverty and (AIDS excepted) given them longer lifespans all around the world. US cultural icons are aspired to all around the world - travelling tells you that.
So why the bad feeling? I guess it's natural to resent something which has so much power which, not unnaturally, has been wielded in that powers' interests, often to the detriment of others.
Raymond, it is natural to get defensive about attacks on your country, but I think you are being a little hasty as the charge of hypocrisy is not unjustified.
The cold war was fought by proxy in many different parts of the world, including South America, in South East Asia, in Afghanistan and Central Asia, and let us never forget the messes in Africa. The US holds up to the world it's democratic political processes saying "here, this is what you should be aspiring to" and then supporting some very nasty regimes in other parts of the world when it suited it. Sure, it prevented Armageddon, but in the process millions of lives were blighted. Is that not hypocritical?
At the present point in time, the States is the sole hedgemon. Until Sept 11 it really did look like the States was turning it's back on the world, refusing to uphold some of its multi-lateral obligations, and refusing to enter into new ones. Although the US ideologically is very 'liberal' economically as well as politically, it is only 'liberal' when it comes to what is in it's interests. Free trade, a cornerstone of liberal economic thought, quickly falls by the wayside when US interests are threatened - most recently anti-dumping tarriffs have been slapped on steel imports to prop up the extremely inefficient US steel industry, and tarriffs have also been slapped on farm imports, the one area where free trade really can make a difference to the poorer countries of the world. Is that not hypocritical too?
And yet, I feel in some way that I'm carping. When I think of alternative hedgemons - China, USSR, Nazi Germany, Imperial Japan, I am devoutly thankful that such liberal minded people decided to settle and claim for themselves the incredibly bountiful piece of land that is the central part of North America so that they could use those natural riches to develop world dominating power.
It's a tough job, but somebody has to do it!
Sorry, I know this is a really long post, but you guys are so good at bringing out the hidden political economist in me!
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Posted:Who ya talkin' to Ray? Or did something get censored?
Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]
Posted:NYC I was generalizing. I agree with Sepa on his/her most recent post (sorry I dun know your sex). I was generalizing that alot of people just want to blame the big guy for their problems. It does make me rather angry and it seems to be a trend these days.
Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"
DeletePosted:Ummm, I havn't been able to read this whole thread yet, but I'd thought I'd chime in with my own $0.02/experience on the whole racial profiling/prejudice issue.
I'm not of middle eastern decent, I'm Colombian, but I have this ambiguous look and many people have told me I look anything from Northern Italian to Arab to Indian (from India). So basically most people can't tell what I am but I look arab enough to wary security guards and alot of hysterically frightened people since the whole 9-11 deal. I've been in airports once since and got searched twice in a half and hour period, once at the main security check and once at the gate. I was angered but I can't fully say it was just becuase of 9-11, it was at the Denver airport and I've had a history of getting checked there, ever since I was 16 I think, and I go there every year to ski. So in my view they just have horrible racial profiling year round no matter what the conditions.
In a week I'm going to be going overseas and I'm expecting major security issues the moment I step into the airport. I'm planing on wearing absolutly nothing metalic, last time they pulled me over because my jeans had a metal button. But even if I go through completely naked I'm sure they'd still want to search me. Going out may not be an issue, the airport here is a good and fair airport, plus I'm be leaving the country. But trying to get back in scares me.
so basically what I'm saying is that I've definitly noticed a difference and it annoys, angers, and saddens me. Racial profiling has always been around to some degree, and it was dissapeering, but now it's just back in full force again. Also it can be hard just to walk around, wondering what other people think when they stare at you. Scared people are dangerous people.
I'm not of middle eastern decent, I'm Colombian, but I have this ambiguous look and many people have told me I look anything from Northern Italian to Arab to Indian (from India). So basically most people can't tell what I am but I look arab enough to wary security guards and alot of hysterically frightened people since the whole 9-11 deal. I've been in airports once since and got searched twice in a half and hour period, once at the main security check and once at the gate. I was angered but I can't fully say it was just becuase of 9-11, it was at the Denver airport and I've had a history of getting checked there, ever since I was 16 I think, and I go there every year to ski. So in my view they just have horrible racial profiling year round no matter what the conditions.
In a week I'm going to be going overseas and I'm expecting major security issues the moment I step into the airport. I'm planing on wearing absolutly nothing metalic, last time they pulled me over because my jeans had a metal button. But even if I go through completely naked I'm sure they'd still want to search me. Going out may not be an issue, the airport here is a good and fair airport, plus I'm be leaving the country. But trying to get back in scares me.
so basically what I'm saying is that I've definitly noticed a difference and it annoys, angers, and saddens me. Racial profiling has always been around to some degree, and it was dissapeering, but now it's just back in full force again. Also it can be hard just to walk around, wondering what other people think when they stare at you. Scared people are dangerous people.
_________________________________
Fuzzy Dice.......................................
Posted:One thing that continually astounds me about a lot of posts on this site and this board is the amount hypocrisy involved.
In this case, people are upset at the treatment of some Muslims (which I think is atrocious). Suddenly, we as Americans all get labelled racist. Calling all Americans racist and prejudice based on the actions of a few is just as racist and predjudice. Some people might call this hypocrisy.
And I know this is hard for a lot of people to accept, but it is much more likely that the Muslim guy with a one-way ticket into the US is a lot more likely to have a bomb in his shoe than an 80 year-old woman from Kentucky in a wheelchair. So to increase efficiency, it is of course necessary that security not waste time searching the woman's wheelchair or patting down Martha Stewart. I have Muslim friends that understand this better than most people.
Now, I realize that pointing out that there is not a perfect country in the world does not liberate us from trying to improve our own. The ubiquitous problem of racism is present globally. But make sure that when you are denouncing the things you hate, that those things are not present in you. Labelling us all prejudice is very prejudice.
I am starting to ramble so let me conclude with this: the answer to the world's troubles is not in the White House or the Pentagon. It is right in the mirror, if you have the guts to look. Really look at yourself and how you contribute to the good and bad in the world. Does your money go toward companies that destroy the enviroment or even finance terrorism (e.g. diamonds)? Does your lack of action help sponser atrocites such as East Timor? I have been dealing with my own disillusionment with my country and the world in general for a while now. But it is far more empowering to work on your own weaknesses and contribute rather than blame others.
[ 11 June 2002, 06:39: Message edited by: Neeko ]
In this case, people are upset at the treatment of some Muslims (which I think is atrocious). Suddenly, we as Americans all get labelled racist. Calling all Americans racist and prejudice based on the actions of a few is just as racist and predjudice. Some people might call this hypocrisy.
And I know this is hard for a lot of people to accept, but it is much more likely that the Muslim guy with a one-way ticket into the US is a lot more likely to have a bomb in his shoe than an 80 year-old woman from Kentucky in a wheelchair. So to increase efficiency, it is of course necessary that security not waste time searching the woman's wheelchair or patting down Martha Stewart. I have Muslim friends that understand this better than most people.
Now, I realize that pointing out that there is not a perfect country in the world does not liberate us from trying to improve our own. The ubiquitous problem of racism is present globally. But make sure that when you are denouncing the things you hate, that those things are not present in you. Labelling us all prejudice is very prejudice.
I am starting to ramble so let me conclude with this: the answer to the world's troubles is not in the White House or the Pentagon. It is right in the mirror, if you have the guts to look. Really look at yourself and how you contribute to the good and bad in the world. Does your money go toward companies that destroy the enviroment or even finance terrorism (e.g. diamonds)? Does your lack of action help sponser atrocites such as East Timor? I have been dealing with my own disillusionment with my country and the world in general for a while now. But it is far more empowering to work on your own weaknesses and contribute rather than blame others.
[ 11 June 2002, 06:39: Message edited by: Neeko ]
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Posted:Word Neeko,
A while back we had a similar discussion and that was pretty much my point. If you're not teaching tolerance or affecting change then empty critiques are hollow.
As for Muslims getting searched at the airport. I've been flying by myself since I was 10 and have never been stopped. And I've taken WEIRD crap through the metal detectors and never been even slowed down.
Since 9-11 I've been harrassed and detained countless times at airports by security, in fact, the ONLY way that I got out of a situation in JFK (trying to bring a certain someone in Paris a fan) was because one of the security guards was my ex-student. Heck, I had my car searched trying to get back home to manhattan. Had I not been a white guy in a shirt and tie from NYC but rather Muslim in traditional clothes I probably would have cried racism as well but I can assure you that added security harassment/detainment are happening to EVERYONE.
As far as abuse from the every day ignorant racist... unfortunately that's life. And if you're not actively fighting against it, you're supporting it.
If you're using words like "Niger, fag, dyke, towel head, camel jockey" or whatever the appropriate slur is, you're ignorant and intolerant. And it really doesn't matter what minority group you hate pre or post 9-11.
Muslim hatred is the flavor of the month. And if you're not actively preaching, teaching, or advocating tolerance FOR EVERYONE then you're part of the problem.
A while back we had a similar discussion and that was pretty much my point. If you're not teaching tolerance or affecting change then empty critiques are hollow.
As for Muslims getting searched at the airport. I've been flying by myself since I was 10 and have never been stopped. And I've taken WEIRD crap through the metal detectors and never been even slowed down.
Since 9-11 I've been harrassed and detained countless times at airports by security, in fact, the ONLY way that I got out of a situation in JFK (trying to bring a certain someone in Paris a fan) was because one of the security guards was my ex-student. Heck, I had my car searched trying to get back home to manhattan. Had I not been a white guy in a shirt and tie from NYC but rather Muslim in traditional clothes I probably would have cried racism as well but I can assure you that added security harassment/detainment are happening to EVERYONE.
As far as abuse from the every day ignorant racist... unfortunately that's life. And if you're not actively fighting against it, you're supporting it.
If you're using words like "Niger, fag, dyke, towel head, camel jockey" or whatever the appropriate slur is, you're ignorant and intolerant. And it really doesn't matter what minority group you hate pre or post 9-11.
Muslim hatred is the flavor of the month. And if you're not actively preaching, teaching, or advocating tolerance FOR EVERYONE then you're part of the problem.
Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]
Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001
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HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Total posts: 13920
GOLD Member since May 2001
HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Total posts: 13920
Posted:NYC, I flew from Detroit to Geneva and back in December/January with a Swiss Army Knife in my backpack (I didn't know it was there). It wasn't until my next flight a few months later that they found it. I hadn't cleaned out the pack since my trip to Europe, so it must have been in there for that trip.
Today's news is getting to me, though. They have detained a U.S. Citizen and are planning on putting him through a military tribunal.
Per the AP article:
"Said Ashcroft: 'We have acted with legal authority both under the laws of war and clear Supreme Court precedent, which establishes that the military may detain a United States citizen who has joined the enemy and has entered our country to carry out hostile acts.''"
and
"A Justice Department official said that under U.S. legal rules, Muhajir can be held indefinitely an as enemy soldier. But there are no plans to impose a military tribunal or otherwise press U.S. criminal charges against Muhajir, said this official, discussing the case only on grounds of anonymity."
Well, gee, that sounds just great.
Today's news is getting to me, though. They have detained a U.S. Citizen and are planning on putting him through a military tribunal.
Per the AP article:
"Said Ashcroft: 'We have acted with legal authority both under the laws of war and clear Supreme Court precedent, which establishes that the military may detain a United States citizen who has joined the enemy and has entered our country to carry out hostile acts.''"
and
"A Justice Department official said that under U.S. legal rules, Muhajir can be held indefinitely an as enemy soldier. But there are no plans to impose a military tribunal or otherwise press U.S. criminal charges against Muhajir, said this official, discussing the case only on grounds of anonymity."
Well, gee, that sounds just great.
-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella
"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura
Posted:quote:Was just wondering what the reaction is in the United States to the new action where men of Middle Eastern appearance who are entering the US will be treated differently than everyone else.
I'm not in the country right now, but am shocked about this turn of events.
I knew shit was FUCKED in that country, but this takes the fucking cake. (Not that it's worse than other things, but that it is *blatantly* unconstitutional)
Hmmm...... Remember back in WWII when the United States locked up hundreds of thousands of Japanese and other Asian Americans in concentration camps for no better reason than the way they looked. They were told something like 'it was their patriotic duty' or some such thing and then their entire lives were taken away and moved to a labor camp. Hmmmm, who else did that? Oh yeah, the Nazi's. My point is that when it comes to war the US government tends to overlook the constitution, bill of rights, and a whole mess of other crap when it suits them, and unfortunatly most of the population goes right along with it because, to cram a whole mess of crap into a tiny nut shell, TV tells them to.
Ever read 1984?
[ 11 June 2002, 13:16: Message edited by: SickpuPpy ]
I'm not in the country right now, but am shocked about this turn of events.
I knew shit was FUCKED in that country, but this takes the fucking cake. (Not that it's worse than other things, but that it is *blatantly* unconstitutional)
Hmmm...... Remember back in WWII when the United States locked up hundreds of thousands of Japanese and other Asian Americans in concentration camps for no better reason than the way they looked. They were told something like 'it was their patriotic duty' or some such thing and then their entire lives were taken away and moved to a labor camp. Hmmmm, who else did that? Oh yeah, the Nazi's. My point is that when it comes to war the US government tends to overlook the constitution, bill of rights, and a whole mess of other crap when it suits them, and unfortunatly most of the population goes right along with it because, to cram a whole mess of crap into a tiny nut shell, TV tells them to.
Ever read 1984?
[ 11 June 2002, 13:16: Message edited by: SickpuPpy ]
Jesus helps me trick people.
DeletePosted:At least they didn't get their "Office of Strategic Influence.... " yet.
as to racism in america, yes it's there, mor e in some places than others. yes, it sucks. no, it's not nesc better in other countries. australia anyone? refugees?
it's not the racism, as horribel as it is, that scares me as much as what the govt is doing in the name of freedom... quote: originally posted by MikeGinny:
I believe in the philosophy of "live free or die" That means that I will live free or I will die. I will not relinquish my freedom in exchange for security because I know that I will get neither. But my chickenshit fellow citizens are content to give up the very freedoms that made us the great country that we once were so that they can feel safer.
may i state my agreement?
"he who is willing to give up freedom for safety deserves neither"
it is more possible to fight in america. that doesn't nesc make it better per se. i'm afraid of this country, it's not my favourite by any means. but it could also be worse.
as to racism in america, yes it's there, mor e in some places than others. yes, it sucks. no, it's not nesc better in other countries. australia anyone? refugees?
it's not the racism, as horribel as it is, that scares me as much as what the govt is doing in the name of freedom... quote: originally posted by MikeGinny:
I believe in the philosophy of "live free or die" That means that I will live free or I will die. I will not relinquish my freedom in exchange for security because I know that I will get neither. But my chickenshit fellow citizens are content to give up the very freedoms that made us the great country that we once were so that they can feel safer.
may i state my agreement?
"he who is willing to give up freedom for safety deserves neither"
it is more possible to fight in america. that doesn't nesc make it better per se. i'm afraid of this country, it's not my favourite by any means. but it could also be worse.
Keep your dream alive
Dreamin is still how the strong survive
Shalom VeAhavah
New Hampshire has a point....
Posted:The funny thing I've found on this board is that I'm often backed into a point of view that I don't normally take. I probably agree with most of you more than you'd think, just one hair less. All of a sudden I'm taking a conservative "USA All The Way!" standpoint which is totally foreign to me.
I like the country I live in, and especially the city and neighborhood where I call home. I like it because there are easily businesses of 30 different ethnicities represented just on my block and hundred more a short walk away. Heck, I live above an Afghani restaruant (and a yummy one at that!)
When I walk down the street in New York City there are literally THOUSANDS of races and religions walking by me, sitting next to me on the subway, working with me, my students, my friends. The city has annual parades and festivals for hundreds of races and cultures. The twin towers and every other NYC landmark was built by immigrants. I'm third generation immigrant. Even my little half brothers and sister are of a different religion than me.
Frankly, I can't think of a LESS racist place.
I like the country I live in, and especially the city and neighborhood where I call home. I like it because there are easily businesses of 30 different ethnicities represented just on my block and hundred more a short walk away. Heck, I live above an Afghani restaruant (and a yummy one at that!)
When I walk down the street in New York City there are literally THOUSANDS of races and religions walking by me, sitting next to me on the subway, working with me, my students, my friends. The city has annual parades and festivals for hundreds of races and cultures. The twin towers and every other NYC landmark was built by immigrants. I'm third generation immigrant. Even my little half brothers and sister are of a different religion than me.
Frankly, I can't think of a LESS racist place.
Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]
Posted:BurningByron, we intervened in East TImor, NOT out of oil/gas interests, but guilt. FOr not intervening the first time. And we didnt intervene the first time because we'd just had the Vietnam War and all over the nation people were protesting against foreign intervention in conflict. Which was understandable considering the Vietnam situation. So the government followed majority wishes. In retrospect the decisions made weren't the best, but it wouldnt have happened differently.
2ndly, after all the grumpy racism stories a cheery story: i was on the train on about14/11 or so, when news of anti-muslim attacks was big. And on the train was a woman in a headscarf. And this physically huge bogan (who id be scared of normally) went and sat down next to her. The poor woman looked terrified. And the guy turned to her, and the whole train was watching. You know what he said?
'How've you been after the S-11 thing? Apparenly attacks on Muslims have increased, but I dont get it. You guys weren't resposnsible, why are people attacking you?'
It was such sweet naivety and fellowship.
2ndly, after all the grumpy racism stories a cheery story: i was on the train on about14/11 or so, when news of anti-muslim attacks was big. And on the train was a woman in a headscarf. And this physically huge bogan (who id be scared of normally) went and sat down next to her. The poor woman looked terrified. And the guy turned to her, and the whole train was watching. You know what he said?
'How've you been after the S-11 thing? Apparenly attacks on Muslims have increased, but I dont get it. You guys weren't resposnsible, why are people attacking you?'
It was such sweet naivety and fellowship.
Delete
Posted:I had to reply to this, it's just too juicy.
Okay, firstly, I'm not exactly sure why Australia took so long to intervene with East Timor. It may have been oil interests, it may have been guilt, it may have been some complex political thing with Indonesia which prevented us from demanding some sort of referendum. But regardless, it eventually happened, and thats a good thing.
America, I've got news for you: You're not as popular as you think you are. No other country gets its flag burnt on such an insanely regular basis as the U.S. does. Steriotypically, you are seen as loud, arrogant, stupid, capitalist cowboys who are just iching to tell everyone how cool they are. Steriotypically, that is. I'm sure there are plenty of Americans who are nothing like that.
America is not a great country. It is rife with crime, has a government easily suseptable to bribes and all to hapy to use propaganda, and most especially, has a terrible education system. In Australia, a 15 year old student has a better education than a 17 year old American, university is accesible to anyone with and acceptable final grade in year 12 (thats right, you don't have to pay up front), and you get taught about the theory of Evolution, (unlike some schools in America, who still think creationism is a valid theory).
My points about the American Government could probably be applied to almost every other government, although I have to say that their system of voting is somewhat suspect, as proven by the elections which got that stupid Cowboy, George Bush, into power.
I find it amazing that US citizens can tell everyone about how free their country is, while at the same time, their government detains Al-qaida "suspects" in Camp X-ray without evidence or trial, including people from other countries, such as Australia. If the US is the ideal pinnacle democracy, then I think I'll just make my way to Russia.
My country, Australia, is not some wonderful utopian society. We have our own problems too, such as the Governments dealing with refugees, or the complete disregard we seem to have (as a country) for the environment. I will tell you one thing though. Australia is a nicer, more democratic place to live than the US. Sure we don't have a huge economy, or an enourmous military advantage, but we are certainly more free than America.
People who attack muslims as a result of September 11 are idiots. Simple as that. They are no better than Neo Nazi's, KKK members, and even fundamentalist christians (the ones who attack abortionists and the like).
1984, by George Orwell is a brilliant book. If you haven't read it, do so, and keep in mind that it is not a direct attack on communism, but more of an example of Democracy gone wrong. It's not hard to see elements of it popping up in Democratic Governments (US included) today.
Anyway, thats my rant for now.
Okay, firstly, I'm not exactly sure why Australia took so long to intervene with East Timor. It may have been oil interests, it may have been guilt, it may have been some complex political thing with Indonesia which prevented us from demanding some sort of referendum. But regardless, it eventually happened, and thats a good thing.
America, I've got news for you: You're not as popular as you think you are. No other country gets its flag burnt on such an insanely regular basis as the U.S. does. Steriotypically, you are seen as loud, arrogant, stupid, capitalist cowboys who are just iching to tell everyone how cool they are. Steriotypically, that is. I'm sure there are plenty of Americans who are nothing like that.
America is not a great country. It is rife with crime, has a government easily suseptable to bribes and all to hapy to use propaganda, and most especially, has a terrible education system. In Australia, a 15 year old student has a better education than a 17 year old American, university is accesible to anyone with and acceptable final grade in year 12 (thats right, you don't have to pay up front), and you get taught about the theory of Evolution, (unlike some schools in America, who still think creationism is a valid theory).
My points about the American Government could probably be applied to almost every other government, although I have to say that their system of voting is somewhat suspect, as proven by the elections which got that stupid Cowboy, George Bush, into power.
I find it amazing that US citizens can tell everyone about how free their country is, while at the same time, their government detains Al-qaida "suspects" in Camp X-ray without evidence or trial, including people from other countries, such as Australia. If the US is the ideal pinnacle democracy, then I think I'll just make my way to Russia.
My country, Australia, is not some wonderful utopian society. We have our own problems too, such as the Governments dealing with refugees, or the complete disregard we seem to have (as a country) for the environment. I will tell you one thing though. Australia is a nicer, more democratic place to live than the US. Sure we don't have a huge economy, or an enourmous military advantage, but we are certainly more free than America.
People who attack muslims as a result of September 11 are idiots. Simple as that. They are no better than Neo Nazi's, KKK members, and even fundamentalist christians (the ones who attack abortionists and the like).
1984, by George Orwell is a brilliant book. If you haven't read it, do so, and keep in mind that it is not a direct attack on communism, but more of an example of Democracy gone wrong. It's not hard to see elements of it popping up in Democratic Governments (US included) today.
Anyway, thats my rant for now.
Delete
Posted:No other country gets blamed for the worlds problems either.
(For those less inteligent this is said with extreem sacasim)
Yep America is a terrible place, we rape babies because we think it cures aids, and support global warming so that our super modles can have nicer tans!
(end sarcasim)
You want to know what the world really thinks of America and Americans??
The whole world loves America!
You want to know why? Because we have money!!
Thats damn right, Americans are charged more for things than natives when we are out of our country. In Mexico the police pull us over because we are Americans and they want us to give them money or they will take us to jail for no reason. In the Middle East our press bribe border guards just so they can move from place to place with out getting harrassed thrown in jail and what not. Even our missionarys are murderd because they are Americans. Yep we are so damn racist and predgudice.
From the looks of things America isn't the racist ones, its the rest of the world that is racist against us!
I do not deny that America has done and is doing some shady things but do not make us the scapegoat for all your damn problems , shut the fuck up look in the mirror and there is the answer to your problems!
I dare someone to come to my house and try to burn my flag see if they dont find a very painfull death awaiting them, I must admit people are very brave when they know they are surrounded by hundreds of people that aggree with them but lets see em do it down town NYC or somewhere like that, hell no they aint got the balls!
(For those less inteligent this is said with extreem sacasim)
Yep America is a terrible place, we rape babies because we think it cures aids, and support global warming so that our super modles can have nicer tans!
(end sarcasim)
You want to know what the world really thinks of America and Americans??
The whole world loves America!
You want to know why? Because we have money!!
Thats damn right, Americans are charged more for things than natives when we are out of our country. In Mexico the police pull us over because we are Americans and they want us to give them money or they will take us to jail for no reason. In the Middle East our press bribe border guards just so they can move from place to place with out getting harrassed thrown in jail and what not. Even our missionarys are murderd because they are Americans. Yep we are so damn racist and predgudice.
From the looks of things America isn't the racist ones, its the rest of the world that is racist against us!
I do not deny that America has done and is doing some shady things but do not make us the scapegoat for all your damn problems , shut the fuck up look in the mirror and there is the answer to your problems!
I dare someone to come to my house and try to burn my flag see if they dont find a very painfull death awaiting them, I must admit people are very brave when they know they are surrounded by hundreds of people that aggree with them but lets see em do it down town NYC or somewhere like that, hell no they aint got the balls!
Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"
DeletePosted:All of this " my country is better than your country" bullshit is what starts wars in the first place!!!!!
WE ARE ALL CHILDREN OF THE EARTH!!!
There are fanatics in every religion and blaming an entire country for the vicious acts of a select group of people is wrong! All that will become of this hatred is the death of more innocent people!
I agree that September 11 was a tragedy for the world, but is more violence really the only answer? Many innocent lives were lost! Do we really want to risk more?
WE ARE ALL CHILDREN OF THE EARTH!!!
There are fanatics in every religion and blaming an entire country for the vicious acts of a select group of people is wrong! All that will become of this hatred is the death of more innocent people!
I agree that September 11 was a tragedy for the world, but is more violence really the only answer? Many innocent lives were lost! Do we really want to risk more?
If you love something set it on fire!
Delete
Posted:I don't see nationalities. I see individuals. I'm not English, or Brittish, I am a child of Gaia, the descendant of my ancestors, one face of the collective consciousness. And whilst I may have big problems with capitalist society, and political authority, just because some one lives in a country who's foreign policy is detremental to human society and welfare, doesn't make everybody that lives there agree with them. I think the problem with the west is that alot of people believe they live in a democracy, when in fact they live in an elected dictatorship. Don't waste energy overtly combatting the system. Live life by your rules, and yours alone. The real front line is in your head. Sure you have to pay taxes which by guns, which kill people. But what use are you going to be serving time for tax evasion? Take the parts that make sense and use them. Ignore the bits that dont. Learn to accept that differences in appearance, culture, and opinion is what makes this world a fascinating place to live. Respect everyone who is worthy of, or returns that respect no metter how much you disagree. Make people around you happy, as their happiness wil make you happy in return, as it is far easier to be happy in a room full of happy people. And for those you cant cheer up or respect? Respect them and leave them to it, try and make sure your paths dont cross often. Sometimes however it is necessary to raise your voice, or your fist. Just say or do what is nessecary and leave it at that. Dont draw it out longer than needed. Protect those who need protecting, and help those who need it too, with no thought of personal reward, other than that of the knowledge that in so doing, you have made the world a nicer place to live.
These are my words, and my opinions. They are not necesarilly right, or wrong. But some people might share them.
be safe and be happy
These are my words, and my opinions. They are not necesarilly right, or wrong. But some people might share them.
be safe and be happy
Delete
Posted:Firebunny, Spiral, Thank you!
Anyone remember this guy who lived in India recently... now what was his name... oh, Mahatma Gandhi? Did we learn anything from him??!!!!!
But wait, humans are selfish... and for the most part they'd rather use violence to give themselves a short term gain then non-violence to give everyone a long term one... my mistake...
Love starts with you.
Peace starts with you.
So can fear.
So can hate.
So can war.
What do you really wnat to be a part of?
Anyone remember this guy who lived in India recently... now what was his name... oh, Mahatma Gandhi? Did we learn anything from him??!!!!!
But wait, humans are selfish... and for the most part they'd rather use violence to give themselves a short term gain then non-violence to give everyone a long term one... my mistake...
Love starts with you.
Peace starts with you.
So can fear.
So can hate.
So can war.
What do you really wnat to be a part of?
Keep your dream alive
Dreamin is still how the strong survive
Shalom VeAhavah
New Hampshire has a point....
Posted:and he will Kill for a piece of rag
But its called patriotism
not murder
for its his nations flag
But its called patriotism
not murder
for its his nations flag
Delete
Posted:without so much evil in the world, how can there be any good...
yin and yang
yin and yang
anyone got a light?
DeletePosted:every human being holds the power to create or destroy, by thought, word or action. With so much evil in the world, the only goodness is that which we create, nurture and spread unconditionally.......
Delete
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