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Drea
member
Location: Melbourne/Austin
Member Since: 22nd Apr 2002
Total posts: 18
Posted:Was just wondering what the reaction is in the United States to the new action where men of Middle Eastern appearance who are entering the US will be treated differently than everyone else.

I'm not in the country right now, but am shocked about this turn of events.
I knew shit was FUCKED in that country, but this takes the fucking cake. (Not that it's worse than other things, but that it is *blatantly* unconstitutional)

I know the ACLU is in uproar about this, but I'm not sure how much media attention they get.

Anyone on a college campus - any protests there?

I am REALLY not looking forward to going back to that right-wing hellhole.

~Drea


hmm.. am in a hippy mood:Reduce, Reuse, Recycle.

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NYC
NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Member Since: 26th Aug 2001
Total posts: 9232
Posted:Don't worry about me too much Ray. I pity you too.

Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:Morality is based on the Bible I can not fathome a story in even an instance where the Bible says to be immoral!! I think you are really missled, there Kyrian.

"like NYC said, i think it's the idea that the removle of the bible form school CAUSED thing to get worse, or at least look worse in statistics and the news, is what bothers us."

Can you rephrase that I am not really understanding what you ment.

NYC I think that was said with a knife in your hand aimed at my back. Or am I reading to much into things?


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Rozi
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Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Member Since: 11th Jan 2002
Total posts: 2996
Posted:Genesis 38

quote: 7 And Er, Judah's firstborn, was wicked in the sight of the LORD; and the LORD slew him.
8 And Judah said unto Onan, Go in unto thy brother's wife, and marry her, and raise up seed to thy brother.
9 And Onan knew that the seed should not be his; and it came to pass, when he went in unto his brother's wife, that he spilled it on the ground, lest that he should give seed to his brother.
10 And the thing which he did displeased the LORD: wherefore he slew him also.
11 Then said Judah to Tamar his daughter in law, Remain a widow at thy father's house, till Shelah my son be grown: for he said, Lest peradventure he die also, as his brethren did. And Tamar went and dwelt in her father's house.
12 And in process of time the daughter of Shuah Judah's wife died; and Judah was comforted, and went up unto his sheepshearers to Timnath, he and his friend Hirah the Adullamite.
13 And it was told Tamar, saying, Behold thy father in law goeth up to Timnath to shear his sheep.
14 And she put her widow's garments off from her, and covered her with a vail, and wrapped herself, and sat in an open place, which is by the way to Timnath; for she saw that Shelah was grown, and she was not given unto him to wife.
15 When Judah saw her, he thought her to be an harlot; because she had covered her face.
16 And he turned unto her by the way, and said, Go to, I pray thee, let me come in unto thee; (for he knew not that she was his daughter in law.) And she said, What wilt thou give me, that thou mayest come in unto me?
17 And he said, I will send thee a kid from the flock. And she said, Wilt thou give me a pledge, till thou send it?
18 And he said, What pledge shall I give thee? And she said, Thy signet, and thy bracelets, and thy staff that is in thine hand. And he gave it her, and came in unto her, and she conceived by him.
19 And she arose, and went away, and laid by her vail from her, and put on the garments of her widowhood.
20 And Judah sent the kid by the hand of his friend the Adullamite, to receive his pledge from the woman's hand: but he found her not.
21 Then he asked the men of that place, saying, Where is the harlot, that was openly by the way side? And they said, There was no harlot in this place.
22 And he returned to Judah, and said, I cannot find her; and also the men of the place said, that there was no harlot in this place.
23 And Judah said, Let her take it to her, lest we be shamed: behold, I sent this kid, and thou hast not found her.
24 And it came to pass about three months after, that it was told Judah, saying, Tamar thy daughter in law hath played the harlot; and also, behold, she is with child by whoredom. And Judah said, Bring her forth, and let her be burnt.
25 When she was brought forth, she sent to her father in law, saying, By the man, whose these are, am I with child: and she said, Discern, I pray thee, whose are these, the signet, and bracelets, and staff.
26 And Judah acknowledged them, and said, She hath been more righteous than I; because that I gave her not to Shelah my son. And he knew her again no more.
27 And it came to pass in the time of her travail, that, behold, twins were in her womb.
By modern terms this is almost Jerry Springer material . The message in it is obedience to God above all else, as he knows the right path, and you must have trust and faith in him. A morality tale it is not, and it could easily be misunderstood.

There are some great biblical stories that teach wonderful lessons. There are also great stories from the Koran, the Torah (please excuse me if I have spelt this wrong), Buddhist teachings, Hindu mythology, folk stories, etc, that teach important lessons. Why should we learn from just one text? Maybe we should do as SunSpot has suggested, and ask each child to bring a story that they feel teaches an important lesson. Read the story and discuss the lesson. Encourage critical thinking.

[ 16 June 2002, 11:06: Message edited by: Rozi ]


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Kyrian
Dreamer
Location: York, England
Member Since: 15th Mar 2002
Total posts: 4308
Posted:Well, i have to run right now (more graduation parties) but i promise to get back to you on this ray.

Peace & Love

Kyrian


Keep your dream alive
Dreamin is still how the strong survive

Shalom VeAhavah

New Hampshire has a point....

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:The Thorra, is the what we call The Old Testiment, almost word for word. (that is my understanding I have not read it) The only place that Jews and Christians disagree on is weather or not Jesus Chrish is the Messiah.

Rozi, I am not here to debate with you that someone can write a story with a moral and call it a religion. Your are taking this all high and to the right. You are going off subject just to get a rise out of me. I could sit down and write a book filled with good morals and stories of bad people getting justiced served to them, but that is not the issue, hell this went way off topic from the first post!


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Rozi
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Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Member Since: 11th Jan 2002
Total posts: 2996
Posted:Woah, I don't think you really got what I was saying.

The initial quote was a biblical story from the book of Genesis. It teaches very important lessons about the Christian faith, mainly that obedience to God is paramount. However in terms of modern morality, it has an entirely ambigous message. It is a passage that needs to be explored with a lot of critical thought.

The bible has a universal message, but was a product of its times. There are certain societal mores described within it that we no longer adhere to, such as the treatment of women, or the punishment of criminals. The text alone is not a panacea, rather it is the understanding of the message.

The same applies to the other religious texts I mentioned.

My reason for listing the other texts was to acknowledge that we can learn moral lessons from many sources and many cultures. And we should not limit ourselves. This does not mean that we have to give away our own faith. It does acknowledge that we cannot impose our faith on others. (I don't mind people preaching, and making willing converts to whatever faith, but legislating to make a certain faith compulsary is abhorrant to me).

We should also welcome and value the other cultures in our society. Hence my use of the word "story". Much of the teachings of morality in all cultures comes through myths, legends and tales. Once again these should be analysed for a message, and to see if it is still a valid perspective. I was not advocating that a moral story should become a religion, rather that there are important lessons to be learnt from stories.

As to the original topic, we began with discussing experiences of racism in the USA after Sept 11. We then had a detour into the teaching of the christian religion in schools as a basis of restoring values and morality to our society. Following this thread I believe I am still on topic by discussing how the bible needs to be critically analysed (as do all texts) in order to understand the real message and therefore the morality aspect. I am also on topic in discussing how limiting teaching to one text excludes the opportunity to learn lessons from other religions and cultures, as well as excluding people of those other religions and cultures from involvement. I am also on topic in making the point that not all our lessons in morality and ethics come from religious stories, so once again, why do we limit ourselves?

To take this back to the original topic, I will ask a question, have people observed changes in schools & educational institutions as to how they teach about other cultures & religions?


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Kyrian
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Location: York, England
Member Since: 15th Mar 2002
Total posts: 4308
Posted:i'm going to let rozi's example stadn for what i would haev said because i agree completly and couldn't have done it better in any way.

and as to teh new question from her, i haev to say "no." Other than that we noticed off-handedly in an essay which touched upon some quotes from afghan folklore (essay from late 80's) teh relevance to the then only two week old 9/11 incident. Normally we prolly wouldn't have even remembered the country in question.

the only "difference" i see is taht we are activly argueing over wether racial profiling of middle eastern people is okay, when just last year everyoen yelled and screamed about how horried racial profiling of blacks was.

that's just local though.


Keep your dream alive
Dreamin is still how the strong survive

Shalom VeAhavah

New Hampshire has a point....

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NYC
NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Member Since: 26th Aug 2001
Total posts: 9232
Posted:Well Ray, I think someone pitying me for my beliefs is one of the most offensive and judgemental statements that have ever been uttered to me.

I can't imagine a more condesending, self rightious, narrow, judgemental, intolerant, and egotistical statement then to PITY someone elses religious beliefs or lack of them.

I'm not actually mad, don't get me wrong. I don't really care that much. But if you take the time to think about what "If you do not want to be a Christian I have pitty for you" really means I think you'll see that it's a pretty offensive statement as well. I would never pity someone else's fundamental beliefs or lack of them.

As for my response, I pity you because of your utter lack of ability to see things from anyone's standpoint but your own. I've had WONDERFUL conversations with devout Christians (with some of my Chem professors in fact) and gained great insight because we both tried to see it from the other's perspectives.

This is not one of those conversations.

I believe some aspects of the bible and it's teachings to be offensive. I am more offended by how the words of the bible have been twisted. There are clearly some amoral sections of the bible as it is an imperfect book transcribed by generations, translated through languages, and passed down from person to person.

Now hold on a second. Look at the above paragraph, please...
Do you agree with it? No, I'm sure not.
Do you believe that *I* have a right to believe it?
If the answer is NO then you are a facist. If the answer is YES then I have a right NOT to have that book in my class.

When legislating morality the question is NOT "what do you believe" but "what do you believe others have a right to believe"...


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NYC
NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Member Since: 26th Aug 2001
Total posts: 9232
Posted:An additional point. I'd never attack Christians or their way of though, whether or not I follow those teaching myself.

I ABSOLUTELY defend your right to believe in Christianity, and would fight to defend your right to believe in Christianity. NOT because my friends or family members are Christian, but because I believe in freedom of thought and worship.

I find it hypocritical that you wouldn't defend my or anyone's right NOT to believe in Christianity. And by suggesting that It's teachings should be brought into my classroom, that's what you're doing.


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Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13920
Posted:quote:Originally posted by Raymund Phule:


MikeGinny, the majority of laws today are Biblical Laws. IE Murder, Stealing, Adultry, just to name a few.Ray,

I would argue that those are Q'uranic laws. Or maybe based on Hinduism. You could call them Halachic (Jewish law) but that would be still Biblical. I don't know the name of the Bhuddist canons, but I'm sure they proscribe those same activities.

I would argue that those laws aren't Biblical, but rather, necessary for any functional society. You can't have a society where you're allowed to take whatever you want, kill whoever you want, etc.

And let's also remember that adultery is not illegal in the U.S.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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bender
still can't believe it's not butter
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Member Since: 14th Nov 2001
Total posts: 6979
Posted:A crucial lesson to walk away from this discussion is of... tolerance.
The very fact that we've the capacity to discuss freedom of/from religions at all is only

made possible by virtue of the fact that our nations are more 'tolerant'.
You don't hear liberal minded Iranians complain about too little religion in schools.
It is my view that religion should add to life, not diminish it.
I also believe that to claim that a lack of religion results in increased teen pregnancy,

more spice girl albums etc. is to invite requests for evidence. If the causality can be

convincingly proven, then there is no doubt that the effect is not influenced or caused by

another reason altogether.
Otherwise it joins the ranks of assertions of little benefit to honest discussion.
IMO the causes for such things as 17 year old mothers or a-ziz-a-zig-ah are not as cut and

dry as it may seem.

Kyrian is on a good idea in that morality should be taught instead of morality wrapped in religion. To introduce dogma into morality is to invite an agenda and theaten objectivity.
My path is no-one's but my own, and i need no middleman for my spirituality.
Ray, I respect that you are devout in your Christianity - I may not follow it, but I will

not renounce it either.
I just want to articulate that you can have faith without having a Faith.


Laugh Often, Smile Much, Post lolcats Always

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Kyrian
Dreamer
Location: York, England
Member Since: 15th Mar 2002
Total posts: 4308
Posted:beautiful bender

Keep your dream alive
Dreamin is still how the strong survive

Shalom VeAhavah

New Hampshire has a point....

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bender
still can't believe it's not butter
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Member Since: 14th Nov 2001
Total posts: 6979
Posted:awwww. fanx!
i didn't need a hicks quote this time...


Laugh Often, Smile Much, Post lolcats Always

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:Rozi I looked at your post wrong, plain and simple. *shrugs* Sorry, I dun know what else to say about that.

MikeGinny, ok, lets take the Bible as a history book and nothing else. The laws that the Isrialites were handed, were handed long before those religions you mentiond even came into existance.

Adultry is argued as a breach of contract, why else was there such a big deal made about Clintons affair? I can see it being illeagle.

Let me change the way I say this to you NYC from uttering to down right telling you, I feel you and others who do not believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of the living God crucified on the cross for our sins and rose again three days later, that you will spend eternity in hell. Now you can accept that as what I believe and try to understand that my pity is not a bad thing but a good thing, it shows that I care enough to think about you and have concern for you.

Let me clarify something for you, because obviusly you dont understand. The Bible is man written God inspired, why would God allow man to write his Word wrong? The Bible has not been missinturprited it has not been changed. I find it inconsivable for that to happen.

I dare you to find something wrong or contradicting in the Bible. I am not a modle Christian, I dont pretend to be anymore. I know where my faults lie and I must work on them.

NYC, I fight to protect the people in this country, if my orders say protect another country I do that too. If you want to believe there is a green goat up in the sky then do it. I will still profess that the Word of God should be the corner stone for this country, and if it was we would have less of the problems we have today. If I am a hypocrite for that, then so be it. I follow the orders I am given.


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Morgane
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Location: Austria
Member Since: 16th Apr 2002
Total posts: 102
Posted:uhm
u do realise that the concept of hell bases on greek believes do u (what were the 3 parts of the underworld again..elysium for the good guys the middle place and the nasty place [think sisyphos])?
that the 'devil' as presented in many pictures is actually a greek god (the name escapes me right now....bachus was i think the roman version)
i would advise people to study history.
*grin*
I would resent the sentence that i will go to hell...but then i don't believe in it so....*shrug*
Morgy
oh and according to a wonderfull man who was also a priest virgin Mary can also be translated as the young woman mary in the old texts...makes one think hmmmmm?


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Dom
Dom

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Bristol, UK
Member Since: 19th Dec 2001
Total posts: 3009
Posted:Great posts Rozi, NYC, Kyrain, Bender. Love ya all!

To base what you see as a decline in society as based mainly on the removal of bible bashing in the classroom is incredibly small minded. There's been a huge change in social structures, explorations of individuality and social and economic structures that have produced the positive and negative occurences of the last 50 years.

Teaching respect and understanding is where the value is. Not enforcing rules and beliefs on children, based on something they probably don't believe in. To me the bible is fiction. A lot of it was written centuries after supposed events, then it's been rewritten and interpreted so many times, edited to suit various churches and kings and so is basically a jumble of old stories that science and history can disprove. And it's inconsistent in what it preaches. Jesus' older brother for instance. Where's he in the Bible. The Bible is not a history book. For it to be history it'd have to stand up to simple tests, and it doesn't.

So why should I go along with that as a basis for my life? Enforced rules are easily (and often purposely) broken, but a mental understanding of what is right and wrong and why (where the why needs to be more than 'because the bible says so') is something that matters, that makes sense to people. I don't kill not because it says so in the bible, but because I have empathy and understanding of the feelings of other people and animals.

Ray, ever thought that maybe the Devil has helped reshape and rewrite the Bible and that God has let him as a test to see how we act when faced with rules that are obviously insane?

To answer Rozi's question. People here are now more interested in the Islamic cultures. Books are selling fast. So it's been good for people's education, as long as that education has been fair and not tainted by some writers' personal beliefs and vendettas against the Islamic nations after Sept 11th.


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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Posted:Morgane, I find it wierd that you would mention a Greek idea of hell when I was talking on hell based on the Bible. The greek god you are thinking of is I believe Hades. I am not big on mythology so I dun know.

Well in Biblical times young was about 13 and seen as how (correct me if I am wrong I am not a female so I dont know this 100%) women dont hit puberty till 12 or 13, why have sex. It wasnt as much of a recreation as it is today. I say as much because there was still things like prostitution and what not back then.

Dom, back several months ago when I first started posting here, you earned my respect, now your really loosing it fast. It brings me no joy to say that.

Dom is your dad in the history books? Mine isnt, does that mean that my dad and your dad were never born? Just becuase people are left out it does not mean that it is not have any historical significance, you point there was ill thought.

None of the New Testiment was written centuries after the fact, and all I repeat all modern history books are written centuries after the events transpired how is that any differnt than what you read in school?

Science has never disproven the Bible even your god of evolution Dawin recanted all that he said on his death bed! In fact in the 90's some archioligists found a piller with the names of kings written on it that list matched the Bible exactly. Seems history prooved the Bible right.

Any other lame excuses Dom?

Dom dont go with the Bible for you base on life, its your call man.

You have no desire to listen to me anyways.

So why do I bother other than to tell the truth to the world.


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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Dom
Dom

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Bristol, UK
Member Since: 19th Dec 2001
Total posts: 3009
Posted:Ray, you're trying to enforce your truth on the world. That's invasive. But you don't even do it with a subtle or intelligent manner. Personally I find your reasonings and logic flimsy at best. You are almost always reactionary and often insulting.

I could sit down and go through the bible and take it to pieces using logic alone, then move onto science and history to completely reduce it to less worth than toilet paper. But I don't because I have respect for other people's beliefs and religions and so don't. If I did I'd be reduced to the level of missionaries and street corner preachers. I'll joyously discuss things with rational people with varied beliefs as I have done many, many times in the past. However I currently don't have the time and I don't think you're at all rational or capable of anything other than a rigid form of thinking that limits you as an individual and your potential as a free human being within a social environment.

Like many religious fanatics your closed mind is what more open minded individuals find disturbing. Closed minds such as yours power many of the evils of the world, from the missionary destruction of cultures, racism and the destruction of the WTC towers.

I'd urge you to grow up, research things with an unbiased eye and think more openly before reacting.


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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Posted:Ok Dom, pick apart the Bible and pm your findings to me. Your logic is flawed, your science does more to prove the Bible right and your history says the same thing as the Bible. What in the world could you say to pick apart the Bible?

Because I choose to believe one thing that makes me closed minded. It is amazing that you would think that becuase I choose to believe in one God, obey the law and not do drugs and not sleep with every woman I meet it makes me closed minded. Interesting it seems that my morals are a bit more ummm properly placed than others?

But Dom it is your right to believe how you wish.


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Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13920
Posted:Ray,

I am honestly not sure whether G-d instructed anyone to write down his words. There is no independent way to verify that many of the accounts in the Bible are true. There is certainly no independent way to verify that G-d dictated the Pentateuch (Torah) to Moses. Furthermore, it is certain that the New Testament is not the word of G-d because it says so in the NT. It's the accounts of mortal men of visions (an oversimplification, but you get the idea).

But let's suppose, for the sake of argument, that G-d did indeed dictate Torah to Moses. Our best estimates would indicate that this happened sometime between four and six thousand years ago. Do you honestly believe that in all that time and all the times that the work has been copied over that nothing was ever changed? Even when it wasn't translated? Whether intentionally, or because someone had bad handwriting, or because someone was getting sleepy on the job, or because someone thought they were correcting a "spelling error" that was actually intentional. I can't believe that over four thousand years, something wasn't changed. And there is archaeological evidence from ancient scrolls that the original text of the Torah was different from the current version.

Furthermore, I can read Hebrew, but I can't understand it. I can only read English. So a translation, like the KJV or the NIV, is clearly a work of man. And clearly, in a translation, there is always an opportunity for new errors, inaccuracies, and misinterpretations to be introduced. For example, the first words of the KJV are "In the beginning..." In the NIV they are "When God began to create...." The significance of this difference is enormous. The first indicates that there was nothing before Genesis. The second leaves that possibility open.

Because most American Christians base their beliefs on an English translation (and I know of very few ministers who are fluent in Hebrew), you can see how it is reckless to call it "inerrant."

I can't even trust the Hebrew version to be accurate over 4,000 years. DNA polymerase isn't that accurate given the same generation time (suppose that you need to make a new copy every 10-20 years) and an alphabet of only four "letters." So I really doubt that a scribe could be better than that.


-Mike )'(
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"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Kyrian
Dreamer
Location: York, England
Member Since: 15th Mar 2002
Total posts: 4308
Posted:mike ray already mentioned i think that things might have been changed. but i think he said something about it not being wrong. if i recall correctly a fundamental belief is taht god will not allow the church to be led astray. now, granted, there's a lot of "the churches" about but i'm not going to nitpick there.

i'm not christian, and probably never will be because i don't like the way most of the churches wind up being organized. I also have issues with how exact everything is, etc. but there are some beautiful ideals mized into christianity, and so i resepect those who can bring those too life.

but ray, two things.

1. Just because your morals are well placed (and if moral relativety is allowed, taht's in your opinion. but lets just say well placed.) doesn't mean that you arn't closed minded. You can be a wonderful and loving person and be very very close-minded. it's not impossible. the problem runs when your close-mindedness would start to negativly effect otehr people. i don't personally see that here or anything, and if you want to be closed minded it's ur perogative. but you still are. no matter how moral you are.

2. By your definition your pity is a good thing. I personally never doubted that. And your welcome to pity us if you like, because that is your belief taht we are going to hell and you can be sad about it. It does show compassion. However, i might refrain from saying something like that, because a lot on non-christians arn't going to think that through and are going to be offended. Because from their point of view, it is. just a thought, it doesn't have to bother you.


Keep your dream alive
Dreamin is still how the strong survive

Shalom VeAhavah

New Hampshire has a point....

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Rozi
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Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Member Since: 11th Jan 2002
Total posts: 2996
Posted:Good points Kyrian. In the bible itself it says that a man can be as moral and well-behaved as he likes, but if he does not have faith, he will not enter heaven. That is the over-arching message of the bible. Yes there is a lot of information about leading a pious and moral life. But time and again there are examples of those with high moral standards disobeying g-d and obeying the moral commands of the time. Ray, I support your decisions as to how you choose to lead your life. They work for you, give you respect for yourself. But there is more to the bible, and any other text, than a guide to morality.

Yes, I do believe that the bible has been changed over time. It pays to know this as it helps us discern the inner message, which is very difficult to change.

I do not actually view myself as a christian. i am not a church goer. I have my own standards of morality which involve not hurting anyone. However I recognise that i have a lot to learn from all religious teachings. But I need to be aware of their contexts, in order to understand the message.


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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

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Location: San Diego California
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Total posts: 2905
Posted:Mike, some words do not translate over, it does not mean that the message is corrupt. I looked in my NIV and it said "In the begining". I am sorry that you feel that cat and gato are two different animals. God will not allow his Church (Church being the body of Christ, not Baptist or Methodist) to go astray. Tomato tamato the the point the root is the same, that is what is important. If you stop only at the actual words written in the Bible then foo on you for missing the point of the Bible.

Kyrian, you have some good points, but I still dont feel that I am closed minded. Choose your path, I cant make you do anything.

Let me say this in the most honest sincerity, if I am right and you are wrong, dont think "Why didnt anyone tell me?" I am telling you now Jesus said in John 14:6 "I am the way the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." In other words you will not go to Heaven unless you believe in Jesus Christ as the son of the one true God, died for our sins and risen three days later. It aint gonna happen sorry folks.

It is your choice, please make a wise one.

Rozi I can count the times I have been to church in the past two years on one hand. That is why I have jacked up my life so much. Don't not go to church because you dont like the way it is set up. Look for the good in a church, nobody is perfect therefore no church will be.


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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splerph
member
Location: Perth Australia
Member Since: 12th Mar 2002
Total posts: 75
Posted:Well this topic has alot of interesting things that I wanted to comment on. But I don't have time for all of them.

I felt I had to comment on a little though. Ray the bible has definately changed over the years. Most of the books were actually written over periods as long as 60 years of course stories are going to change in that time. Its inevitable no one can remember something perfectly.

It had also been translated over and over from Greek to Latin back to Greek and to English or Vietnamese French you name it. In every translation stories change.

A little background about me to explain my next thoughts. I went to a Catholic Primary and Secondary School. I would not say I am a Catholic now I would say I am a Christian though and I have very strong beliefs. HOwever they are my own beliefs I have developed myself based on many questions and research. I also now work in a Catholic based Education Department.
All of these environments have taught me to question and find out more. I have recently sat down in a Library and read for 5 hours straight about many many different religions. Something you would never have found me doing a couple of years ago.

anyway back to my point. I went to a small Catholic Primary School. It was very close to a Migrant Hostel. At the time when many migrants from Timor and Indonesia and Vietnam were coming into Aust. As it was a Catholic Primary school run by nuns we had many many students from the Migrant centre. Every morning we had the normal prayer at Assembly but after that we some of the children from Timor get up and either tell us about their country or say a prayer or sing a song. I learnt so much from that time in primary school.

Having a bible and prayer in my classroom did not have much effect on me. (emphasis on me) However it certainly dind't have a detrimental effect on me. Although I have stated it was a Catholic School.

I also want to make mention of. ... (yes I know this is a really long post) I recently at work listened to a fascinating speak made by a priest. He is Australian based in India with the Marist Brothers. He spoke about Challenges facing the Church. He himself spoke about the bible not reflecting today's issues and the Church not reflecting today's issues or challenges.

Whenever he feels like he has missed the point in the bible.. Always goes back to the Greek version and reads it in greek to understand. Then he reads the whole Chapter so he hasn't taken the story out of context. Then he thinks about it from a point of view in today's society. (does that make sense)

I know this is fairly rambling and probably hard to follow. HOwever I'm at work and don't have time to edit this sorry..


Smile and the whole world smiles with you

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Dom
Dom

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Bristol, UK
Member Since: 19th Dec 2001
Total posts: 3009
Posted:Ray, just to clear one thing up. I don't think you're closed minded because of your religion or morals. I think you're closed because that's how you come across in almost all of your posts.

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

Enter a "Title" here:
Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:My father, used to work for a company called Hosana (sp). That company made tapes of the Bible in different languages. The stories from the Bible do not change, the wording does because some words do not transfer over to other languages. It just dont happen that way.

Dom I have offerd to give you a chance to tell me all your theorys on the Bible in a privet setting that way the only person you offend is me. That is alright because I will probably be offending you in return. I dont think that is very closed minded.

Also if you have the right to accept and do anything you want does that not mean I have the right to not accept and dispise anything that I want?

The door swings both ways on that "I have the right to...." issue


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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NYC
NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Member Since: 26th Aug 2001
Total posts: 9232
Posted:Ray, there's a difference between being close minded and having an opinion. I don't think that anyone here has any problem with your theological thoughts and beliefs.

It is the involuntary imposition of those theological thoughts on others that has us up in arms (prayer in school, etc.) You absolutely have a right NOT to accept anything, and the "door swinging both ways" is exactly my initial arguement.

I'd hate to get into a Science vs. Religion argument mostly because I do not believe that they are exclusive of eachother. The fundamental difference is that science knows it's not perfect.

If you do not believe in evolution you abolutely have that right. I could offer the existance of bananas and poodles. That is, both modern seedless bananas and poodles were not put on this earth initially by God. They were created as a direct result of evolution relatively recently. Viruses evolve over the course of a year. The Pope himself about 10 years ago declared that evolution was a "viable theory" (I have the New York Times article on that.)

There are also passages in the bible that clearly state that the sun moves around the earth. If you want to believe that you can as well, despite the fact that the Catholic church dropped that arguement a few hundered years ago, you can.

There are also sections of the bible which I find offensive. For example, the sections in which a raped woman can be bought from her father if she is not married I found offensive. I also didn't think it was fair to declare that anyone who had their genitals accidentaly mutilated couldn't get into heaven. By the word of the bible, my uncle who had testicular cancer would be unable to get into heaven. There are more, but I don't have the text in front of me. Nor do I really want to look right now.

In closing, I think that there is a huge difference between having a different opinion and being close minded. I embrase those who have differing opinions and reject those who are close minded. It's really up to you as to how you would like to portray yourself.


Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

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Salinger
member
Location: Southampton
Member Since: 2nd Dec 2001
Total posts: 382
Posted:I am literally exhausted after reading through this thread, I have read words of wisdom and words of ignorance. I have found so much thought provoked from each and every post I find it difficult to post anything but I know I must mention something of how I feel.

Raymund,
I truly believe that you have never had the intellectual scope to rationalise the bible and Christianity and adapt it to your life, you are the obvious product of indoctrination without explanation, and that is why you have failed to understand many of the well explained, compromising and diplomatic points raised herein. I'm a believer in many facets of different relgions, and I try to apply them to my life. I'm a human being who wants to live a philanthropic life, helping others, and trust me, I wouldn't be surprised at all if I hold a lot stonger to the morality imbibed in the 'good book' than youself, but yet you've already comdemned me to hell while you, however, armed with your trusty machine gun and following any orders barked at you, will be welcomed!
If I don't go to heaven or anywhere else beyond this World when I die then I will have no regrets at all, for I will have lived my life for the good future of this Earth and its people and by my beliefs. If you have a problem with that, feel free to respond or PM me, bearing in mind I leave work now and won't respond until tomorrow.


A conspiracy of silence speaks louder than words...

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

Enter a "Title" here:
Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:I am really really sorry but where in the world and in what Bible did you read that the sun goes around the earth?

The part about the raped woman I do not know that part but was it found in the Old Testiment? If so the Church is not requiered to live under those rules and laws.

I do believe that the Bible is not talking about testiculer cancer. Seen as how circumcision could be seen as mutilated. And it does not say accidently.

Pyrophile thats pretty insulting, I have nothing harsh or rude to say to you in return. Swearing is a major problem for me, I wont deny it, but I follow my orders and I live my life. I dont mix and match what appeals to me.

I have chosen my life, you still seemed mixed up. None the less continue to slander me if it make you feel bigger, who am I to say you cant say that?


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13920
Posted:Pyrophile,

I understand your frustration, but let me recommend that you just ignore the thread.

Ray and I, at least, I believe are having a rational and respectful discussion. He hasn't called me a hellspawn or anything.

A very important part of what I see as being a Liberal is actually putting my money where my mouth is and truly accepting and respecting others' beliefs when they differ from my own. I am as unlikely to turn Ray from Christianity as he is to turn me to it. But that doesn't mean that we can't have a rational debate about what role religion should play in U.S. politics.

And if I ever meet Ray, I can honestly say that I'd love to hang out with him and certainly spin some fire.

How can I claim to better than those bigoted fundamentalists when I automatically label someone on account of his religion, rather than his behavior?


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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