• All Purchases made this month instantly go into the draw to win a USD $ 100.00 credit to your HoP account.
 
Page: 123
onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom

Total posts: 3252
Posted:What do people think about the term 'safety nazi'.

At the risk of being coarse I've got to say that it really gets on my t*ts.

I seem to be seeing it in a lot of posts recently (I won't give examples as it would mean quoting people who I'm sure mean no harm).

The ironic thing is that this term is not being bandied about in the old style way of having a go at people considered to be excessively 'nannying', but by people using it in the sense 'sorry to be a safety nazi, but......" and then going on to put forward an opinion that makes excellent sense and could well save someones life.

On the few occasions in the past when I saw it used against well meaning individuals, it never seemed particularly appropriate to me- it came across more as a cheap insult used by those who couldn't really articulate anything rational to support their point of view.

Now it's not been used in that way anymore (on the parts of the board I frequent anyway), it seems to me that if the well meaning people dropped it's use it could perhaps dissappear forever?

To me, if someones got a good point to make about safety, I'd prefer them to just have the confidence to say it straight- use of 'safety nazi', to me, seems to imply that in some way you're being a bit over fussy.

That's just the way I feel, my opinion, maybe others see some good to the use of the term?


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

Delete Topic

_Clare_
BRONZE Member since Oct 2002

_Clare_

Still wiggling
Location: Belfast, Northern Ireland (UK)

Total posts: 5967
Posted:Wow, I just got censored. U mustn't be able to say sh*t, then

Getting to the other side smile

Delete

vanize
SILVER Member since Aug 2001

vanize

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Austin, Texas, USA

Total posts: 3899
Posted:well, I doubt if more than 20 people ever show up to any single austin gathering as well, and the people who do organize a gathering don't go out of their way to tell people about it since too many showing up can quickly get to be too much of an ordeal (requiring too many safety nazis for anyone to be happy).

-v-

Wiederstand ist Zwecklos!

Delete

SpitFire
GOLD Member since Dec 2002

Mand's Girl....and The Not So Shy One
Location: Calgary, Alberta Canada

Total posts: 2723
Posted:and then we don't have more than a couple of people spinning at the same time....we take turns, one to two people max at a time.

Solitude sometimes speaks to you, and you should listen.

Delete

Spanner
BRONZE Member since Feb 2003

Spanner

remembers when it was all fields round here
Location: in the works... somewhere..., ...

Total posts: 2790
Posted:I especially agree with Coleman and Josh here. This is the first time I've read this thread and they've covered most of my stronger feelings on the subject.



The term "safety nazi" makes me cringe. There's so many other words, much more relevant and universally understood, which would suffice frown



Here's something I would like to ask you all. It can be rhetorical if you wish, I'd just like you to think about it:



You, individually, or your group, has been asked to perform with fire at a Jewish festival, such as Hanukkah (which I believe means Festival of Lights).



Would you call yourself or another member of your group a "safety nazi", while at the performance?



If not, then please think about the reasons you may feel comfortable enough to do so elsewhere. smile


"I thought you are man, but
you are nice woman.

yay,

:R"

Delete

vanize
SILVER Member since Aug 2001

vanize

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Austin, Texas, USA

Total posts: 3899
Posted:I actually think it would hardly matter since it is only an internal reference and I doubt if anyone outside of the spinners at a spin meet has ever heard us use the term.



besides, at a hired performance, we would only use experienced fire performers we trust - no need for a safety nazi in that case.



as far as using the term nazi in cases where it is clearly inapproriate, I've already mentioned that I do not - living in Germany where people still suffer a very strong national guilt makes using the term here inappropriate. And point in fact I agree with what onewheeldave said about avoiding the term on HoP (outside of this thread) now that I know people find it offensive. In fact, I seriously doubt if I have ever used the term here on HoP before this thread was started. I have seen others use it and I did not think it inappropriate (except for perhaps the appologetic attitude associated with it, again as onewheeldave points out), but perhaps it was for others.



Basically I don't really care about the word nazi. it is a useful and term on occasion. But I am more than happy to avoid its use in inappropriate situations - until someone tells me I cannot. Then I'll stick the word in their face as much as possible. It is like the stupid notion of making laws or a contitutional amendment against burning the US flag. I never had a desire to do that before, but as soon as it becomes illegal, I plan to go out and burn a whole pile of them and make sure there are lots of news cameras there to see it.



I am usually very polite till someone is rude enough to tell me how I must behave, then I will make it a point to be an ass about it.


-v-

Wiederstand ist Zwecklos!

Delete

musashii


musashii

starring Skippy the green llama
Location: Seattle, WA

Total posts: 1148
Posted:Written by: onewheeldave


I don't feel particuclarly stongly myself about the 'nazi' aspect (as it relates to fascism etc), but I do note that some here find it offensive and am willing to respect that.

In my case I don't like or use the term primarily beacause of it's apologist connotations where safety is concerned.





Oi, I think I see exactly where you're coming from now smile And agree with the 2 sentences above completely. It wasn't completely evident from the start that you were bringing to light the apologist connotations, online or offline. While offline opinions may be more difficult to change, at least here on this board it is something worthy of mention. I think alot of recent discussions have shown us that most regulars are safety conscious, but the need often expressed to be apologetic about it should be done away with entirely.

As for the question of whether the term would be used at a performance, it's kind of irrelevant in our case, we have a safety manager(appointed safety nazi eh), who has the final say on safety concerns, period.


First intention, then enlightenment..
Ars Pyronomica

" Life is programmed. Whether death is programmed or not is yet to be determined."

Delete

coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kin...

Total posts: 7330
Posted:Written by: vanize

if you read my post you should understand that it is up to the reader to interprete. I just choose to use it to illustrate a use of the word - perhaps even in an ironic way since real nazis are so fond of making people behave the way they want them to, and people who prefer freedom will (ideally) let people say what they please.



fair enough.

however, i still think it was pretty clear that 'vocabulary nazi' was aimed directly at those people who had stated that they took offence to the word 'nazi' and i found that slightly tactless.

i never asked anyone not to use the word - i have only stated my opinions on its use.

i'm sorry if you took offence to "you have not raised any new issues nor addressed the ones i raised."
after reading your post (and yes, i did read it before getting grumpy wink) i felt that in spite of my arguments, you simply dismissed the point that a few of us were trying to make - that to keep language coherent, and meaningful the meaning of some words must be kept consistent - without providing any counter argument bar 'words are words'.

there is also the far more basic point that newbie firespinners who hear the term for the first time are likely to asuume it is a negative label until someone explains otherwise.

which is another reason i won't use it smile


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

Delete

Spanner
BRONZE Member since Feb 2003

Spanner

remembers when it was all fields round here
Location: in the works... somewhere..., ...

Total posts: 2790
Posted:I think my question is being avoided...



It wasn't to do with whether one is in a context in which the term "safety nazi" would be used to describe a person present, rather than whether one would feel comfortable in using the term at all, when in earshot, consciously or not, of non-spinners. smile


"I thought you are man, but
you are nice woman.

yay,

:R"

Delete

Twirly


Twirly

Shoryuken!
Location: Hexham, Newcastle, England

Total posts: 233
Posted:I feel quite comfortable using the term "nazi" around anyone where I live (I've never used the term safety nazi in real life mind)
although seeing how many people do take offence at the term still I may have to consider readdressing this.


Delete

vanize
SILVER Member since Aug 2001

vanize

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Austin, Texas, USA

Total posts: 3899
Posted:ditto - expect make that "where I used to live". You don"t say that word in Germany unless you are in a serious conversation.



but I thought I answered your question spanner... in regards to "safety nazi" explicitly, well, we use the term "towel b!tch" too, but only in group. at a professional performance, then we keep it professional, but we rarely need to use any of those terms anyway since everyone knows their job and when to do it that we hardly need speak of it at all. At a more informal gathering, sure there is a smallish possibility of some non-spinner overhearing the word "nazi" or "b!tch", but they will also hear the tome of voice as playful, so I'm not too concerned about it.



personally I think it is an effective term, but if there are enough people here that are so strongly opposed to the phrase safety nazi, then fine, I'll be happy to not use it outside this thread while on HoP, which hardly changes anything since I never used it before this thread started anyway. But I'll still use the term when I'm in Texas with my fire friends there without any concern whatsoever.



re: coleman (not aimed at you, just adressing your comment about my post). In the post you reacted to, you"ll note that I intended to push buttons and even gave you a warning the sentence before I did. my point was to try and get everyone to think about how ironic it is that the word nazi suddenly starts making people act like, well, nazis - if they take the word too seriously. And there IS a point to the phrase "words are words - they only mean what you make of them." It means that just because someone chooses to get uptight about a certain word, it doesn't mean I have to. To me, the words "republican party" and "president bush" get me way more agitated than the word "nazi" ever could, but apparently not everyone feels that way. does that mean everyone on this board should avoid those words because I don"t like them? If me using the word nazi is rude, then anyone using the word repulican must be rude too since now everyone knows I don"t like the word. Certainly that is ridiculous, no? ok, so the issue of safety should definitely be treated with respect here at all times, and if people think that associating the word nazi with safety diminishes that, then there is a valid point (and I've already said I won"t be using the phrase). but please, everyone, don"t ever tell me I can"t use the word "nazi".



Now for a personal comment aimed directly at coleman: I've always respected your contribution to HoP and your part in our discusions. keep on keepin on. peace hug


-v-

Wiederstand ist Zwecklos!

Delete

pounce
SILVER Member since Jan 2003

pounce

All the neurotic makings of America's lesser known sweetheart
Location: body in Las Vegas, heart all a...

Total posts: 9831
Posted:Written by: vanize

in regards to "safety nazi" explicitly, well, we use the term "towel b!tch" too, but only in group. at a professional performance, then we keep it professional



i find this kind of ironic. why do you not use a word you are comfortable with when you are trying to be "professional." would that be considered hypocritical? (not accusing, just wondering your take on it).

myself, i am consistent with my behavior whenever possible. i go to every job interview with all my piercings in because that's who i am, job or no. it doesn't stop me from being a professional, or from just hanging out with friends. i don't use certain language with friends that i won't use with clients or coworkers. for myself, if i were to "adapt" my behavior i'd feel like i was ashamed of something.

if safety nazi is such an acceptable term in your circles (this is addressed to anyone who uses the term), why would it not be appropriate to continue the use of the term even in professional settings?


I was always scared with my mother's obsession with the good scissors. It made me wonder if there were evil scissors lurking in the house somewhere.

Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons for you are crunchy and good with ketchup.

**giggles**

Delete

spritie
SILVER Member since Sep 2001

spritie

Pooh-Bah
Location: Galveston, TX, USA

Total posts: 2014
Posted:I think it's more that you wouldn't need to use any such safety term in a professional setting. At least around here, the only people that get professional type gigs are those that have good safety protocols in place before going on said gig, hence no need to call anyone a safety nazi (or safety b!tch or some other such term). The safety nazi only comes in to play when there are people in a more public free-form area that are not abiding by preset safety protocols or are just plan being stupid in their use of fire play.



From another angle, would you use cus words in a professional setting? It's usually seen as bad form, so I wouldn't use something like towel b!tch or safety nazi at a professional gig either for those reasons.


Delete

pounce
SILVER Member since Jan 2003

pounce

All the neurotic makings of America's lesser known sweetheart
Location: body in Las Vegas, heart all a...

Total posts: 9831
Posted:i do cuss in professional settings. i don't go around using swear words left and right, but if it fits the context, i'm not going to censor myself. i use cuss words with both clients and coworkers.

I was always scared with my mother's obsession with the good scissors. It made me wonder if there were evil scissors lurking in the house somewhere.

Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons for you are crunchy and good with ketchup.

**giggles**

Delete

onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom

Total posts: 3252
Posted:Written by: vanize

my point was to try and get everyone to think about how ironic it is that the word nazi suddenly starts making people act like, well, nazis - if they take the word too seriously. And there IS a point to the phrase "words are words - they only mean what you make of them." It means that just because someone chooses to get uptight about a certain word, it doesn't mean I have to.




Here we can see a clever use of words- 'uptight' slipped in as if it belongs there naturally when in fact the actual issue here is precisely whether those objecting to the term 'safety nazi' are justified, or being over the top and uptight.

Because, if the former, then they are not being at all uptight, but merely calmly and rationally pointing out that they consider the phrase to have very negative aspects.


Written by: vanize

To me, the words "republican party" and "president bush" get me way more agitated than the word "nazi" ever could, but apparently not everyone feels that way. does that mean everyone on this board should avoid those words because I don"t like them? If me using the word nazi is rude, then anyone using the word repulican must be rude too since now everyone knows I don"t like the word. Certainly that is ridiculous, no?



I'd say 'no': -

The word republican is a descriptive one which identifies a certain political orientation.

No one here objects to the term 'nazi' being used in it's descriptive way, i.e. referring to certain fascistic elements around the time of the second world war- there's nothing offensive there. It's a fact that nazis existed at the time and 'nazi' refers to them, it's not offensive in that use.

'Safety nazi' is a different matter, there's no connection between a person who helps with safety matters at a fire meet and the individuals responsible for atrocities in the second world war.

As fully elaborated during this thread, the phrase 'safety nazi' has aplogist connotations, has been used to insult and, to some, is also insulting the victims of the genuine nazis.

To some up, no one objects to the term 'nazi' when used in the same way as 'republican'. I suspect that what agitates you isn't the word 'republican' but the people it refers to i.e. republicans themselves and their views.

Perhaps a way you can see the viewpoint of those who do object to the term 'safety nazi' being applied to safety people, would be to imagine a world where those who, at fire meets, were known for their emphasis on safety, where called 'safety republicans' by people who, like you, seriously dislike republicans?


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

Delete

vanize
SILVER Member since Aug 2001

vanize

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Austin, Texas, USA

Total posts: 3899
Posted:people are objecting to the use of the word nazi though, and that is what I am on about. Nazi means more than a member of the national solcialist party of Germany these days (even if the dictionaries haven't caught up), and I don't care for people telling me I can't use it in its newer definition sense, just like I don't care for people telling me I can't use the word "ain't".

and yes it is ridiculous that people on HoP should have to avoid the word repulican just because I don't like it. I do not see how that would be reasonable.

Written by:
Perhaps a way you can see the viewpoint of those who do object to the term 'safety nazi' being applied to safety people, would be to imagine a world where those who, at fire meets, were known for their emphasis on safety, where called 'safety republicans' by people who, like you, seriously dislike republicans?



go back and read my last post and you'll see that I get it, and have gotten this point for a while now. I thought I made this clear?

look, when it comes to people saying "don't use the word nazi so flipantly" I am going to get extremely flipant and stay that way. that is one issue. another issue is that safety should NOT be taken flipantly - so I agree that a) that someone should not be appologetic about having safety concerns, & b) using flipant terms like nazi in association with safety in front of a bunch of newbies on a board where they can't see the context of the statement is not such a great idea. how many times now have I said that I won't use and never have used the term safety nazi on HoP outside the context of this thread?

so where is it that people think they are dissagreeing with me? is it because I am simultaneously defending free speech and the evolution of words???

and pounce - if I did all the things at work as I do amongst friends, I wouldn't have much of a career future. if that is hypocracy, then I'm in good company and just fine with being a hypocryte.


-v-

Wiederstand ist Zwecklos!

Delete

Twirly


Twirly

Shoryuken!
Location: Hexham, Newcastle, England

Total posts: 233
Posted:Written by:
Written by: vanize

in regards to "safety nazi" explicitly, well, we use the term "towel b!tch" too, but only in group. at a professional performance, then we keep it professional



i find this kind of ironic. why do you not use a word you are comfortable with when you are trying to be "professional." would that be considered hypocritical? (not accusing, just wondering your take on it).

myself, i am consistent with my behavior whenever possible. i go to every job interview with all my piercings in because that's who i am, job or no. it doesn't stop me from being a professional, or from just hanging out with friends. i don't use certain language with friends that i won't use with clients or coworkers. for myself, if i were to "adapt" my behavior i'd feel like i was ashamed of something.

if safety nazi is such an acceptable term in your circles (this is addressed to anyone who uses the term), why would it not be appropriate to continue the use of the term even in professional settings?



Big clap to you for having such self-respect! My basic attitude is that if a job will require you to change who you are, it's not a job worth doing. Sure uniforms are needed in some jobs, as it is important to easily distinguish customers from clients, but generally if you are just "expected" to dress a certain way, and if you don't you will lose respect/job, then its not something worth getting involved with in the first place.

However in this world people have to make ends meet, and if that requires changing who you are when you're on the job, most people accept that. You may feel you ought to be able to say "safety nazi" to the people employing you, but if thats going to make them think less of you and stop hiring you, then I guess for a lot of people its just not worth it.

Working in a pub I get to say pretty much what I want (on my first day I was warned that there was the threat of a severe skull-fukking if I cocked up smile ) but if I'd have spoken how I'd have liked while working in a supermarket I wouldn't have lasted a week there.

Much, much respect,
Davy


Delete

pounce
SILVER Member since Jan 2003

pounce

All the neurotic makings of America's lesser known sweetheart
Location: body in Las Vegas, heart all a...

Total posts: 9831
Posted:thanks davy smile

I was always scared with my mother's obsession with the good scissors. It made me wonder if there were evil scissors lurking in the house somewhere.

Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons for you are crunchy and good with ketchup.

**giggles**

Delete

Page: 123