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oli
SILVER Member since Jul 2003

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Posted:theres been alot of talk of inventing moves on this froum recently.

but can you really invent poi moves or are they there from the start waiting to be discovered?


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Rev
BRONZE Member since Mar 2003

Rev

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Posted:discovered... they like anything in nature existed before we understood them..

the term inventing refers to creation of soemthing that did not previously exist.. ie. you invent poi... but things that already are determined by the invention poi are the mvoements that can be made with it.. thus moves, concepts and the like are un/discovered..


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spiralx


spiralx

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Posted:I don't think the terms have any meaningful difference to be honest. If you agree with Rev's argument then nothing is ever invented, as everything is already determined by the laws of physics. Which is obviously twisting the definition of the word invented..

invented
* To produce or contrive (something previously unknown) by the use of ingenuity or imagination.
* To make up; fabricate: invent a likely excuse.

The first definition fits perfectly. But so does discover

discovered
* To notice or learn, especially by making an effort: got home and discovered that the furnace wasn't working.
* To be the first, or the first of one's group or kind, to find, learn of, or observe.
* To learn about for the first time in one's experience: discovered a new restaurant on the west side.
* To learn something about: discovered him to be an impostor; discovered the brake to be defective.
* To identify (a person) as a potentially prominent performer: a movie star who was discovered in a drugstore by a producer.
* Archaic. To reveal or expose.

Several of this also fit. So both words are valid, but I don't agree with the idea that all the moves are out there in some ideal Platonic world.


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Mr_Jedly
GOLD Member since Jan 2004

Mr_Jedly

member
Location: Perth, West Australia

Total posts: 195
Posted:It's better to say "Hey I discovered a new move - what is it called/anyone seen this before?" than "I invented a new move. here it is!"



and what spiral said. ubbrollsmile




EDITED_BY: raghkyre (1087398362)


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spiralx


spiralx

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Posted:The term invent doesn't mean that nobody else has ever come up with something before. The Greeks invented steam engines... but so did others over a thousand years later in Europe smile

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Rev
BRONZE Member since Mar 2003

Rev

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Posted:invented implies ownership..



discovering implies learning..





to invent something ti ahs to -not- exist anywhere at any time befroe you... thus mvoes as we know them.. invented..my @$$..



you may have re-invented moves.. but even then its notbloddy likely.. pushing terms there...



and I don't feel its platonic heaven.. I just believe there are things like physics that accounts for the how and why you know.. thus predetermined.. unless you know how to defy physics..


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spiralx


spiralx

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Posted:Written by: Rev
invented implies ownership..

discovering implies learning..


No, inventing implies inventing. It no more applies to inventing than to discovering... you can discover something and then keep it to yourself

Written by: Rev
to invent something ti ahs to -not- exist anywhere at any time befroe you... thus mvoes as we know them.. invented..my @$$..

you may have re-invented moves.. but even then its notbloddy likely.. pushing terms there...


Sure, if you redefine what the word means.

Written by: Rev
and I don't feel its platonic heaven.. I just believe there are things like physics that accounts for the how and why you know.. thus predetermined.. unless you know how to defy physics..


But as I said your argument implies that nothing is ever invented... it's just "discovered". After all, even if no specific example of it has ever been done before, the potential for it exists in nature.


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Rev
BRONZE Member since Mar 2003

Rev

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Posted:no.. invention.. creation.. artifact.. tool.. these words go together.. that's what i mean...



natural.. physics.. discovering.. these words go together..



I don't invent gravity.. discover gravity... I don't invent centrifugal force I uncover centrifugal force..



contextual.. you know..


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spiralx


spiralx

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Posted:So what about maths then? Do you invent maths, or discover it? Because I think that's about the closest analogy here.

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Rev
BRONZE Member since Mar 2003

Rev

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Posted:you discover math.. you don't invent it..

the formula is there.. an you work the logic or take the derivative or integral etc.. etc.. and thus uncover a secret that was already there?

in math as I understand it.. inventing was reserved for major cconceptual classes.. like physics as a clas.s. or calculus.. or trig... but the information contained within the genre as in the math.. the lines the formula themselves..a nd what they reflect has alwyas been there..

for isntacne in string theory.. they talk of discovering bosons..not inventing them.. they talk of uncovering dimensons.. not inventing them.. you follow what I mean..

the line is there.. we had to invent the numbers (tools) to understand the line.. but the understanding, the line, and the math behind the line were already there..

math is just a way for us to express nature in language.. that's all phsyics is you know.. math:poi::formula:move(ments)


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spiralx


spiralx

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Posted:Well perhaps so. Physics may seem like discovery but it isn't really - we discover facts about the Universe and then use them to invent models about how the Universe works. Science doesn't claim to be the truth, just a useful model of it.

What about the creation of new axiomatic systems in maths? Surely that's invention, as you're not discovering anything, you're defining new rules.

As a different analogy, did Shakespeare create his plays, or did he discover them? Did Picasso create his paintings, or did he discover them?


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oli
SILVER Member since Jul 2003

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Location: bristol/ southern eastern devo...

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Posted:Written by: spiralx

So what about maths then? Do you invent maths, or discover it? Because I think that's about the closest analogy here.



thats the question i was thinking of when i asked the question in terms of poi...


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Rev
BRONZE Member since Mar 2003

Rev

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Posted:Written by: spiralx

As a different analogy, did Shakespeare create his plays, or did he discover them? Did Picasso create his paintings, or did he discover them?



the axioms are the math itself..they are the -tools- that we use to understand, explain, and uncover new formula...

the painting analogy is ahrd to follwo because he didnt invent the painting.. that's something that's used a bit far contextually.. I think..

but to go back to the math.. the pattern itself.. the 3bt weave for isntance.. its line.. that's it.. a dual variable line but a line none the less.. now the actual pattern movement and what not.. is all part of the fomrula... the y=mx +b in some complicated fashion.. you know.. now the math that we invented like poi we swing may have uhelped us unearth this wonderous formula.. but the math didn't invent the formula.. the maht (axioms, etc) are the tools that we use to make the formula possible.. to explain the formula and to understand the formula.. but the product of the forumula is what it descirbes.. which inherently is already determined.. by that I mean that when I pluck in the varibales.. there is no choice no inventing the outcome.. the outcome is determined once the variables are in place..

If I swing a certain way (ie plug in certain variables) the outcome is set.. that is not something I can create from nothing.. it will happen pre-determinately.. does that make sense?


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spiralx


spiralx

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Posted:It makes sense, but you've basically turned art into a giant exercise in discovery... where is the creativity in that?

Blugh, it's a horrible viewpoint frown

And besides, we can invent as many sets of axioms as we want. Certainly there is more maths out there than there is room to write them and their consequences down in the Universe. So saying they're discovered imples you do believe in some form of Platonic ideal world IMO.


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Rev
BRONZE Member since Mar 2003

Rev

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Posted:no I ahvent'';ita misuse of the understanding..



for example.. the brush will make stroke patterns a certain way predetermined.. does thatmena the artist is not creative with his strokes.. never.. its all in how you use it..not what you use..



edit: math is idela.. its abstract and doesnt exist.. but it is a medium that is used to convey understanding of the relationship that we percieve with the world we are in.. I dont belive in idela worlds or platonic anything.. but.. I do believe that ideal scenarios present cases by which things can be understood.. physics is by no menas ideal.. but pure math is..

EDITED_BY: Rev (1087403261)


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spiralx


spiralx

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Posted:Written by: Rev

no I ahvent'';ita misuse of the understanding..

for example.. the brush will make stroke patterns a certain way predetermined.. does thatmena the artist is not creative with his strokes.. never.. its all in how you use it..not what you use..


So you agree that the artist is creating something then? So why is that different from creating a new way to spin your poi?

In both cases it's the creativity behind it that's important, not the fact that the end result obeys the laws of physics!

Written by: Rev
edit: math is idela.. its abstract and doesnt exist.. but it is a medium that is used to convey understanding of the relationship that we percieve with the world we are in.. I dont belive in idela worlds or platonic anything.. but.. I do believe that ideal scenarios present cases by which things can be understood.. physics is by no menas ideal.. but pure math is..


But what about maths that describes things that have nothing to do with the world we live in? Transfinite numbers, number theory, surreal numbers etc etc. They don't have anything to do with the world we live in.


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Rev
BRONZE Member since Mar 2003

Rev

Bastard Newbie Messiah
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Posted:Written by: spiralx


But what about maths that describes things that have nothing to do with the world we live in? Transfinite numbers, number theory, surreal numbers etc etc. They don't have anything to do with the world we live in.



that would be prue math.. pure abstaction.. ie.. doesnt exist.. nothing purely in the realm of math exists.. its all ideal..

but back to the point the creative use of the move and the move itself are seperate.. the move works based on gerneal principals.. that is not invented.. thus the move itself isnt an invetion.. how the move is applied is different..

let me put it this way: the fact that by doing this I can weave is not inventing anything.. the fact that by weaving I can do <insert dramtic performance here> is something different.. but see the performance is not based off of just the single solitary weave.. if it were it wouldn't be that creative.. you see. so all these moves.. all these vairations in the function are not inventions.. they are derivatives and integrals of the very same thing.. hence why there are no moves.. as per the other thread.. now..the artist presentation.. the way the artist combines the moves uses the move, moves with the moves.. etc. that.. that my firend is creativity.. that is your painter painting.. your muscian jamming and what not..

the art.. and what makes the art are different.. the poi just like the paint and brush were invented.. the strokes and patterns left are discovered.. and the art is created..


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spiralx


spiralx

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Posted:But what is a move? You say the weave isn't creative but its use is. So then what about using it to make a big circle? That's creative eh? Oh wait, that's a fountain.

To be even sillier... a circle isn't creative. But spinning three circles with each hand so they... "weave" out of each other's paths... wow, that's creative! Just a second...

The trouble is that a move is just a handy label for a bunch of motions always. So coming up with a new way to combine these motions is something you've said is creative. But doing that is just coming up with a new move!


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Rev
BRONZE Member since Mar 2003

Rev

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Posted:again.. you misread me spiral..



th point is that each of these 'moves' are nothing more then strokes of a brush or chips on a stone... the circles.. aren't the 'move' nor is the artistic expression just a move..



the move as we put it is a particualr equation.. regressing down to the circles is breaking the derivative down to just a single number..



the point is that as has been stated many times these labels terms 'moves.. are usually things we are already doing but don't realize.. ie.. same direction ttn.. does that mean that they got invented when we realized what we were doing.. no.. it means we finally discovered what it was we were doing..



the creative expression comes in the combinations of these into some unique grouping.. as in my artistic expression when dancing to a song will not be the same as yours.. even though we may use the same 'moves' thus the creative aspect is more then just the move... the move simply is.. but the product isn't simply there..



edit: how about this.. how about we treat it as a soriities series.. at least thats what the definition move has which is why I like adding the (ment) because movement is more accurate then move.. at least in connotation.. but the reason I say soritiies series is because the move essentially starts out with 0 a non moving poi.. and then integrals up top a particular equation weave or particular complex equation like fountain.. but I don't think creativity really steps in until you get further up the chain.. others say its starts further down the chain.. however the levels gorw in complexity.. the two levels up from 0, which should be about a weave.. are still insignificant relatively to the complexity of a the movement 8 levels up when you get into complex 10-15 minute spins.. hell even 5minute 'routine' I use the word loosely.. spekaing from probabilities is more personal and hence creative then weave which I ahve to say would be rather basic, rudimentary and universal.. you know..



edit x2: oli sorry if you feel we have hijacked the thread.. ooooops

EDITED_BY: Rev (1087407472)


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tenticle


tenticle

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Posted:Both. Both words mean essentialy the same thing, just loaded with extra meanings by the context they are normaly used in.

If i sit and think about poi, come up with an idea, test it out and find it works, then i have invented a move, even if someone else has invented it first. It was previously unknown to me. Which also meas discovered fits, as it's the first time i've experienced that move.

Invented is normaly loaded to mean unknown to every one, and so people get uptight about its use. Also invented is normaly used for a thing put together out of other things, which still means poi moves could be invented. a fountain is a bunch of follow time crossovers put together.

Discovered still means it was unknown, but is used with more scope (ie. unknown within some group that is implied from the context), but is usualy used for concepts and abstracts, like discovering america, discovering your partner is sleeping with your boss, discovering a bunch of follow time crossovers that go round in a big circle.

People react better to people who say they discovered a move because it dosn't imply that no one knew of it before, and some people are a bit touchy when it comes to poi moves. Particularly if they think they invented them.

-Ben


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Rev
BRONZE Member since Mar 2003

Rev

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Posted:I agree with most of all of that.. but I prefer use of un/discover..



discovering is a personaly thing..mroe subjective in connotation.. inventing is objective in connotation..



again all this may be just semantical arguments but still I think the implications on the mental level tend to influence more then simple semantics.. you know.



america was dscovered.. by many people.. enven though it existed already.. whereas inventing american is something wholely different..


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oli
SILVER Member since Jul 2003

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Posted:Written by: Rev

edit x2: oli sorry if you feel we have hijacked the thread.. ooooops



nah ive been enjoying your discussion, its all good.

this is what i think i think:

when i say invent, i mean bring into existance, without you, whatever youve invented could not exist.

when i say discover i mean it all ready exists, you just didnt know about it before.

someone invented a lightbulb, austrailia was discoverd.

so i think those are two different meanings. although i suppose you could use discover to mean invent, but not the other way around.

with poi, i think its discoverd the moves are all there somewhere allready. and by that i dont mean walking around or hiding insides peoples heads, i think they exist, and im not sure i can describe what i mean any better than that. but i think as they exist there is a chance that they will be discovered by someone who spins poi. obviously when, where they are discovered is not down to chance.

and i think i agree with what revs saying really, about creating ways to spin the different moves. theres probably as many different ways to spin a weave as people who spin poi.

peace

obviously none of this is important though


Me train running low on soul coal
They push+pull tactics are driving me loco
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Rev
BRONZE Member since Mar 2003

Rev

Bastard Newbie Messiah
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Posted:nah its very important.. this is a discussion.. everyone's .02 counts.. (even those counter to mine even though yours isn't.. lol)



that's why I said it may be semantics but I dunno.. things like inventing a movement in painting like I dunno.. naturalism or something.. that I can see under proper invention.. but again.. I see invention in league with artifacts and tools.. but I can see where the sorities seires in the term move/movement can lead this to a debate..



i dunno.. I'll stop now in danger of overly repeating myself..


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Dunc
GOLD Member since Aug 2003

Dunc

playing the days away
Location: The Middle lands

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Posted:I always just say found or learned. It saves a lot of bother and cuts out the ego side of it all too biggrin peace

Let's relight this forum ubblove

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Mags The Jedi
GOLD Member since May 2004

Mags The Jedi

Fool
Location: Cornwall, UK

Total posts: 2020
Posted:Found is good.

"I believe the cost of life is Death and we will all pay that in full. Everything else should be a gift. We paid the cover charge of life, we were born."

Bill Hicks, February 1988

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spiralx


spiralx

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Posted:As tenticle said, it's all semantics. But I still say invention, because it fits for me and doesn't have the loaded terms that some people have associated with it.

"Moo," said the happy cow.

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Durbs
BRONZE Member since Sep 2001

Durbs

Classically British
Location: Epsom, Surrey, England

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Posted:Just to be awkward - shouldn't this be in Social Discussion?

wink


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Dunc
GOLD Member since Aug 2003

Dunc

playing the days away
Location: The Middle lands

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Posted:yeah this and 2 other threads pop to mind....but if it was in there I wouldn't be able to lurk and laugh at you guys spitting dummies all over the place ubbangel

Let's relight this forum ubblove

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Dom
BRONZE Member since Dec 2001

Dom

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Bristol, UK

Total posts: 3009
Posted:Written by: Rev

invented implies ownership..



Written by: Custom Bug

I always just say found or learned. It saves a lot of bother and cuts out the ego side of it all too




I think the problem, as aptly displayed by Rev and Custom Bug, is that if somebody says "I invented this move" people see big, bright neon letters screaming "EGO!" In order to drop your own ego you have to drop your perception of ego, including other peoples'.

To invent: To produce or contrive (something previously unknown) by the use of ingenuity or imagination.

Therefore I invent my poi moves. Some I learnt, some I reinvented (there's a lot of parallel invention throughout the world in all fields) and a couple I most likely invented before anyone else.

And all this "everything exists until it's discovered" stuff is, in my opinion, rubbish. Things, ideas, mathematics, whatever, are invented, or created by us. If you want to get into terminology then maybe you should use the words 'created' or 'came up with'. btw Maths is a language of universal interaction and so can be invented. You can't invent the atom, but you can invent a way to define an atom and invent a way to move that atom.


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spiralx


spiralx

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Posted:Well said Dom!

The issue of "ownership" is an entirely separate matter. Poi moves are an idea not a thing, and as such any ownership of them would probably come under Intellectual Property laws... trade secret would probably be the only one you could apply ubblol


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Rev
BRONZE Member since Mar 2003

Rev

Bastard Newbie Messiah
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Posted:iant finding the same as discovering... I mean people discover things for themselves.. people invenet for the world (though they may keep it themselves...)



columbus found america

columbus discovered america

columbus uncovered america

columbus invented america



which of the following sounds correct?

or has discovered been made a bad term too?!?





edit: since I didnt' see the second page.. I agree with whatyou say Dom.. but I think you hit the nail on the head as said before.. when peopleuse the term invent.. they tend to get -ego- involved.. whether they mean to or not.. its one of those psychological issues.. not an intentional use that is done by the word itself..



and as far is being out there.. lmao.. I'm not saying themove is there waiting to be uncovered.. I'm saying that any pattern you 'invent' is already in the list of permeables in the probability matrix.. as per physics.. we wil enver 'invent' any move that doesn't obey ANY laws of physics and thus be subject to them..


EDITED_BY: Rev (1087487216)


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