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oli
SILVER Member since Jul 2003

not with cactus
Location: bristol/ southern eastern devo...

Total posts: 2052
Posted:theres been alot of talk of inventing moves on this froum recently.

but can you really invent poi moves or are they there from the start waiting to be discovered?


Me train running low on soul coal
They push+pull tactics are driving me loco
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spiralx


spiralx

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Location: London, UK

Total posts: 1376
Posted:And as I said, by that definition you can never invent anything, because everything you could come up with is already in the "probability matrix" of the laws of physics.

"Moo," said the happy cow.

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Rev
BRONZE Member since Mar 2003

Rev

Bastard Newbie Messiah
Location: Apparently lost in my ego, USA

Total posts: 1269
Posted:no.. putting sutff together as in making a hammer from stone and wood is not part of the laws of physics the tool itself is an object.. how it was created is part of physics and chemistry and what not..but the tool the invention is not.. poi however the mvoe is a line it is physics the whole time..only the poi itself is a freestanding artifact that was 'invented'

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Dom
BRONZE Member since Dec 2001

Dom

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Bristol, UK

Total posts: 3009
Posted:"Ownership" of poi moves is null concept, because it's all out there in the open for all to see. Monkey see, monkey do. Depending upon who's standing around at the time I reckon it takes bewteen 2 minutes and a couple of weeks for from me doing a variation to somebody else doing it and taking it further. And I love it! biggrin

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spiralx


spiralx

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Location: London, UK

Total posts: 1376
Posted:Written by: Rev

no.. putting sutff together as in making a hammer from stone and wood is not part of the laws of physics the tool itself is an object.. how it was created is part of physics and chemistry and what not..but the tool the invention is not.. poi however the mvoe is a line it is physics the whole time..only the poi itself is a freestanding artifact that was 'invented'


It's all just moving things in certain ways though!


"Moo," said the happy cow.

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Rev
BRONZE Member since Mar 2003

Rev

Bastard Newbie Messiah
Location: Apparently lost in my ego, USA

Total posts: 1269
Posted:I understand that mate.. completely.. but I can't tell you how many people I run into on and off the boards that take offense to stuff.. little nuances that they feel they invented because they were the first to talk about it.. video it.. whatever..



I'm not saying everyone uses invent like that.. but ALL the people with egos do..



That's why I say its a loaded word.. I can't tell you how many people whince when they here the word in a poi conversation.. its one of those things that has just gotten a bad rep.. (even though my personal opinion is it doesnt really fit anyway..going back to math and scinecne 'discoveries' and objects as inventions..)



spiral- moves are not objects.. but rahtewr conepts.. a line between two points on a graph.. hence they dont' exist


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spiralx


spiralx

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Total posts: 1376
Posted:We're back to where we were earlier... with you being of the position that any kind of art is discovered. I think Dom expressed my opinion...

"Moo," said the happy cow.

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Rev
BRONZE Member since Mar 2003

Rev

Bastard Newbie Messiah
Location: Apparently lost in my ego, USA

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Posted:*shrugs*

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oli
SILVER Member since Jul 2003

not with cactus
Location: bristol/ southern eastern devo...

Total posts: 2052
Posted:Written by: Dm

And all this "everything exists until it's discovered" stuff is, in my opinion, rubbish.




it exists after its discovered to tongue
and austrailia existed before it was discoverd by europeans.

Written by: Dm

btw Maths is a language of universal interaction and so can be invented.



whose to say that it hasnt been there all along? it could be just a kind of inevitability, and however it had happened, the same system would occour. meaning that its probably already there. im not sure about that though, i could be persuaded either way on this argument given my mood/time/place.


Me train running low on soul coal
They push+pull tactics are driving me loco
They shouldn't do that no no no

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Rev
BRONZE Member since Mar 2003

Rev

Bastard Newbie Messiah
Location: Apparently lost in my ego, USA

Total posts: 1269
Posted:actually on the math thing..amth was a set of language deverloped to addequatelydescribe nature.. math as a structure and the classificatiosn of structure and terms were invented.. those are the tools.. the hammer and chicsel or bpaint and brush.. that I have no doubt was invented.. BUT the fomulations.. that actual nature.. the actual mvoement of the poi spun the stroke of the brush.. that is all nature itself.. those are not created but noticed.. math and science.. or rather the things that math ans science symbolize (think word cat (math) versus cat itself (nature)) are there.. being noticed.. we may bea ble to use our understanding to further theorize but theoyry is nothing without practice.. and in practice you see the theory in nature and thus discover it.. uncover it.. it back up your theory but your theory wasnt invented.. your theory wasn't necessarily creative more then inspired but twhat you had already discovered.. you know



edit: because I hit the wrong keyboard button

invention if it has a place beyond the tools itself lies in the creative output..which is not the move.. but the hwole dance.. which includes every step taken during the number etc.. its the painting left behind after the strokes are put together.. in otherwords its the totality of the dance.. which can be argued through somethinglike a sorities series to be but amove itself.. but I think the creativity come sin how its used.. which is not the move but how the move is used.. up one level.. style expression etc..



blast edit again: the strokes don't make the painting.. the whole picture makes the painting.. the moves don't make the dance but the totality of the picutre makes the dance..

EDITED_BY: Rev (1087493021)


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tenticle


tenticle

enthusiast
Location: ati: on: She: ffi: eld: UK:

Total posts: 275
Posted:Rev: when words are used by authors, they are used loaded with the meaning the author has. When they are read, they are read loaded with the meaning the reader has. People assume that words only mean one thing, the thing they think it means, and forget that other people might not have the same meaning.
So maybe all the people with egos use invent, but it's all the people with egos that respond with 'you didn't invent it, x did years ago'.

Oh, yeah, if it's art, you can copyright it. But anyone is free to create derivative works from it, such as spinning it with different poi, or slower, or whatever.
Poi moves come with an unstated version of the GPL that was attached to the first poi move- you can do what you want with it, modify it, include it in your own routines, but any derivatives are covered by the GPL, and so can be freely modified, copied, etc.

Invented vs. discovered, free will vs. predestination, infinite virtual multiple universes with tiny differences and us in one vs. one universe and this is it, all pointless arguements about whether a coin came up heads or heads.

-ben


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oli
SILVER Member since Jul 2003

not with cactus
Location: bristol/ southern eastern devo...

Total posts: 2052
Posted:tenticle -

good post- dont know why? but that post seems to make more sense to me than anything ive read in a long time...

hug hug hug

smile


Me train running low on soul coal
They push+pull tactics are driving me loco
They shouldn't do that no no no

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Dom
BRONZE Member since Dec 2001

Dom

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Bristol, UK

Total posts: 3009
Posted:
Oli, either you uderstand me and are helping me prove a point or you don't and you still are wink

In the sentence you quoted I was also objecting to the word "discovered" for precisely the reason that Australia gets discovered and not invented, but ideas, concepts, languages get dreamt up and invented, or discovered, found, unlost, whatever - depending upon an individual's interpretation of the word.

Written by: oli

whose to say that it hasnt been there all along? it could be just a kind of inevitability, and however it had happened, the same system would occour. meaning that its probably already there.



Not sure I understand, but where do concepts and languages exist before they're thought up or spoken? My argument is that they don't.


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Rev
BRONZE Member since Mar 2003

Rev

Bastard Newbie Messiah
Location: Apparently lost in my ego, USA

Total posts: 1269
Posted:but my argument isn't over the semantic of the dilneation of the move.. you people refer to the art side of it.. which I'm sure your quite fond of.. which is creational.. but its alsoa matter of aesthtics.. which is quite subjective..



but the poi moves.. the bases for your dance.. are not indivdually a matter of aesthetics.. and are not a matter of art.. how you stroke with the brush is not art.. but reather the after result.. the poi motion itself is the brush stroke.. its not a matter of free will or dertermination whatever seems to have brought that up.. its a matter of the concept that I use when I think butterfly.. is not the same as when I use butterfly in dance.. though the butterfly in concept is the root..



see the problem with this is that mathmatics describes nature and math was invented.. and people then use basic mathematical principals to derive complex principles.. but none of these are invented.. like when I think btuterfly andIthink weave.. and then I butterfly weave.. that is not a matter of inventing.. that is a mtter of deriving.. these concepts when applied together for this new integrated formula.. so though you thought out the math (ie. figured out how to put the two together) you nevertheless have not invented anything that was not there before..



there is creationism in art not in mechanics.. moves teach you mechanics.. dance is the art.. I really don't understand where there is a matter of nondifference.. the author writing a word does not invent the word.. nor does he invent connotation of the word.. but the book.. the story is more then just the words or structure (language) that is used to express it.. poi is more then dance.. it is mroe then art.. soyou cannot solely put all of the art side as to account for the whoel.. that's absurd..



there are seperattions..



edit: how about we come toamiddle ground the move is invented (hence the terming etc.. other people invent at the same timebut may call it something else..) but the concept is discovered.. and the fundemental differeacne being that sometimes people learn the invented move but not the concept discovered directly (since my argument was in the indirect mehcnical discovery prior to the invented move prior to the discovered concept in some cases....) does that make people happy?


More useless information courtesy of Rev...
Confusing the masses, one post at a time...
"Obviously, you're not a golfer.."- The Dude
"Buy the ticket... Take the ride..." -Raoul Duke
"FEMA has never done catastrophe planning..."-Michael Brown

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tenticle


tenticle

enthusiast
Location: ati: on: She: ffi: eld: UK:

Total posts: 275
Posted:Written by: Dm



Not sure I understand, but where do concepts and languages exist before they're thought up or spoken? My argument is that they don't.



The observable result is the same, so there isn't any way to distingush between 'was there but you didn't know it' and 'isn't there and i/we/they made it'. which is why everyone ends up argueing semantics.

-ben


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oli
SILVER Member since Jul 2003

not with cactus
Location: bristol/ southern eastern devo...

Total posts: 2052
Posted:Written by: Dm


Written by: oli

whose to say that it hasnt been there all along? it could be just a kind of inevitability, and however it had happened, the same system would occour. meaning that its probably already there.



Not sure I understand, but where do concepts and languages exist before they're thought up or spoken? My argument is that they don't.





my argument is that its not important, but i would like to know. and i think at the moment it could be either way, kinda makes more sense for things not to exist before someones thought of it. but whose to say these things dont exist? can you prove something dosnt exist in a universe that you dont know the limits of?

i dont know. wink


Me train running low on soul coal
They push+pull tactics are driving me loco
They shouldn't do that no no no

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Dom
BRONZE Member since Dec 2001

Dom

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Bristol, UK

Total posts: 3009
Posted:Oh don't start with all that "if a tree falls" nonsense wink

Written by: Rev

how you stroke with the brush is not art



Yes it is.


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oli
SILVER Member since Jul 2003

not with cactus
Location: bristol/ southern eastern devo...

Total posts: 2052
Posted:i started that about 40 posts ago yesterday i reckon.. when i wanted to ask the question in the



" the best spinner in the world"



(cant remember if thats the title but its something like that) - but didnt want to side track too much.

EDITED_BY: oli (1087506755)


Me train running low on soul coal
They push+pull tactics are driving me loco
They shouldn't do that no no no

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spiralx


spiralx

veteran
Location: London, UK

Total posts: 1376
Posted:Written by: Rev
actually on the math thing..amth was a set of language deverloped to addequatelydescribe nature.. math as a structure and the classificatiosn of structure and terms were invented.. those are the tools.. the hammer and chicsel or bpaint and brush.. that I have no doubt was invented.. BUT the fomulations..


They're one and the same... after all Godel proved his theorem by converting notation into numbers smile


"Moo," said the happy cow.

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