Forums > Beginner Staff Moves > Throwing staffs sinlges and doubles

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DeepSoulSheep
GOLD Member since Sep 2002

DeepSoulSheep

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Posted:I've been learning loads of throws this year. I took a lot from Home Of Poi. This is all the info I could found on throws in the staff forum over a number of threads. A search didn't return much but I have gone through all the pages I could searching using my eyes.



Below are what I have found. I have placed a link to the relevant thread at the top and a quote of moves in that thread. I hope this doesn't annoy anyone but this took some time that it may save someone else in future.



If anybody involved in these older threads feels that the threads are better linked too and not quoted pm me and I'll sort it out as these words don't belong to me.



I was going to briefly decribe what was there like in The Tangles Galore thread Simian got together but found it was more difficult and I ended up describing what was already there. I also think it's handier to have them all in one thread because now the throws people know of that aren't here can be added and it can all be together. Let me know what you think anywho... smile



Double Staff throws



Josh say :

Written by:


1) I think the easiest horizontal throw to do with Doubles is when you have em going in a stacked corkscrew (helix). As the lead staff in the pattern reaches the top you throw it straight up spinning horizontally, and you do a straight helicopter pass over your head with the other staff. Then you catch the thrown staff in your free hand and it becomes the following staff in the pattern. Done continuously and you have a nice cascading effect.

***

2) As you are about to cross the first staff up and to the other side of your body you release it and sweep the other stick through the gap and then catch the original staff in the original hand. The throw is done quite low and its really quick and nice.

***

3) doing Parallel Rotors (ie one hand in fwd the other in rvs)



The hand thats doing the fwd rotor does an under leg throw while the other hand does a pinwheel behind the head pass.



Then with your newly free hand reach under your other leg and do an underleg catch of the first staff, which ends up on the other side



So its an underleg throw to opposite underleg catch while doing a pinwheel pass with the other.





Charles say

Written by:




1) Somthing I've been playing around with my larger staffs...



Tuck one staff under your arm (pointing horizontally) when the other is airborne, catch the airborne one on the end of the first one and throw it from there (or do some devil sticking then throw it).



I'm not sure what it looks like, but for me at least, it seems original



2) Here's a fun one that looks hard but is quite easy to pick up.



1. Do a standard double-figure 8 with both staffs.

2. in one handlet the staff slide a few inches down your hand so one end is longer than the other.

3. As it passes in front of you, stick your leg up and throw it from under the leg.

4. With the empty hand still under the leg, pass the other staff into it and pull it back out.

5. Catch the thrown staff with the now empty hand.









Throw 2 at a time



Minero say:

Written by:


try going btb (staffs going opposite to each other)to throw under the opposite arm and out in frotn, the timing seems to suit continuous throws...

also with both in the same direction throw one staff under the other, the best way i can describe it is similar to juggling chops, may be the most beautifully fluid move i have ever seen.....





Blackbird say :

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Easy one, which looks kinda nice...

you have both staffs close together (your hands basically touching) in front of you in different hands.

If you spin (using fingerspins) the one in the right clockwise and the one in the left anticlockwise, they sort of just miss each other, like, interlocking... it puts me in mind of the Poi butterfly.

You can throw this and it keeps its shape really well, and looks like the staffs are sort of bouncing off each other (in the same way that the Poi in the butterfly look like they are bounciong off each other).

Catching is simply a matter of keeping youe hands out in front of you and looking at the point where the staffs cross.







Minero say:

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1) ok... bit of a strange one this, came to me as i was burning myself last night trying something else new....which is also quite nice so maybe i will start with that one then the one with throws....i guess i should have read the naming threads to find out what this is all called but i will try to make it clear...both hands doing what i think is called reverse rotor(?) with alternate timing, then when coming to the front each staff does a head roll to the same hand, looks a bit sloppy if you catch in front, but behind with extra wraps....wow. so...the hard version. as one staff does a head roll the other is thrown giving enough time to swap hands on the first one...then turn 180 and go the other way(or there are ways of getting back from forwads rotor to reverse without the 180 but then you are in extra combos...)

2)

mmmmmm fabulous, got some new throws and wraps, double throws only a few tho... kind of links into contact stuff this one - contact one staff on top pof the other so you are only holding one(nice way into it charles is to go from the double palm spins you mentioned in another thread, throw one up(must be same direction!!!) and land it on the other) then spin both above your head and throw... catching is just a cas of keeping your eyes on the centres....easier said than done, but a beautiful move....

enjoy

have to say hto just been getting smoother, not too much new throwing, but wraps, oooooohhhhhh....

ax

3) start both staffs horozontal, left hand acw, right hand cw. as they come up together in front of you throw them both so one passes just above the other, then catch same time in opposite hand... then to get back to the start position you can snake them both(clubswinging terms, sorry) and pass accross in front of you....







Kyri say:

Written by:


Throw one under your leg (remember two legs, and two ways to come from under.... i think that makes four total different versions for the under the leg staff)and one straight up. (i can do this from just about anything that isn't over teh head.)



Throw them over your head from the sides.



Throw one from the front and one from behind so they pass over your head. *warning* *warning* this one is really hard to do and i've actually not worked on it almost since i started doubles cause it hurt so much.



Throw one from the front so it would pass over your head and one from behind straight up, turn 180, and catch both in what is now ur front.



Throw both in lazy throws that intersect at the top of the arc,this one is also kinda hard to do cause they like to hit.



And I think someone already said this, but you can always throw both in front of you.



that's all i know for simultaneous in seperate hands....





Maeon say:

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Meanwhile, back at the left hand side of the body... In your left hand you should be doing the figure eight normally at your side - so as the staff comes infront of your body your thumb should be leading. Once the right hand staff is thrown, pass the left hand staff behind your back to your right hand - just like the bottom part of the standard behind the back move ...the star/windmill. This leaves your left hand free to catch the staff that was thrown.







Nix say:

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both hands doing alternate backwards figure 8 (or forwards, but i prefer to throw onna backwards) right hand throws up for one spin, as it comes down throw and imeadatly cath the other staff with the left hand, catch the now airbourn staff with the right and your into forwards alternate figure 8.



to split the staffs (sommit i been praticing hard) have them held fairly off center to each other (at least a wick length) both in the same hand. Throw in your prefered style and they should split sideways midair, catch





Doubles throws



Nix say:



Written by:


instead theres this. Y'know when you have both staffs doing backwards figure eights mirrored (both on the samme side of the body, front and back) and you throw them up and cross each other and catch in forward figure eights?



well its a little like that but with the staffs going alternate sides of the body (left in fron, right behind and swap) for example the right and throws for 1 turn and the left hand trows a turn later and imeadatly catches the right hands staff, whilst the right hand catches the left a beat later and your into alternate forwards, but like juggling pattern.



Also, I just heard from robb that to spit the doubles sideways you hold them off center to each other, he says about a foot off for 5 foot staffs. Thanks rob, tried it today and she works a beute.







Mineiro say:

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mwwwaaahahahahah single throw i know but couldn't keep it to myself any longer



both in forwards 8's to left and right, throw one veryveryveryvery high, gives you time to do pinwheel and a half(three hand changes) before catching)



soon to be four







Bender say:

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very nice, inferno, the juggler in me is thinking SWEEET! but then again, he always want chocolate icecream.

i like to do a horizontal throw combo - helicopter throw as the other hand passes a high palm to the free hand...





Doubles throws



Charles say:

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Yippee, something I can actually do as well as explain! (Josh pulled me up in the Cartwheel section a while ago.

The only Double Staff throw I can do at the moment is very very simple but looks very effective.

I hold both staffs in the middle ( my 1.4 metre ones) under my armpits gripping just up from the centre.

Pointing them at the ground (for a VERY short space of time i.e burns) I then spin then backwards (pinkyfirst) in two complete spins and then where I would normally roll them over the back of my hands, I throw them into the air for a 1/2 or 1 1/2 spin. Catch them, and tuck them back under my arms...

As far as fluidity goes, its not bad, but is defintely a standalone trick, very hard to put into a routine



2) Just doing a basic FIGURE 8 where I throw one as it scoops up in front of me and then throw the other when it does the same thing, then catch the first then ctach the second.







Cantus say:

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Basically i end the figure 8's so that the leading ends of my staffs are pointing towards the sky at about 45degrees. And I let the momentum of the spin carry the both out of my hands and (as longs as one is slightly in front of the other -practice, practice, practice) they glide passed one another and into their respective hands. Allowing me to carry the movement on into normal forward figure8's.





Josh say:

Written by:


with one staff you can figure8 round the body, pass behind, figure eight to the front and throw then catch, fairly standard? With two you start wit both ends pointing at the ground but one behind your body and one in front. spin them in thier figure eights and as the rear staff comes forward throw it high and for 360degrees, meanwhile the other hand has come round the back and you will have a space to transfer to the throwing hand and then catch the other staff. the process can be repeated, in a continous paralell circle or transitioned into some side on reverse shinobi stuff.







General hints on throwing from front to behind and visa versa



General throwing tips



Doubles staff throws



Josh say:

Written by:


if you can do anything like a rvs 3-beat btb weave with Poi this one shouldnt be too hard.



as you cross behind you with one staff (helps if its going bkwds in rotation) switch the other staff to the other side of you body in front. Then throw the btb staff straight up behind the body and a bit forward, as it turns in the air bring the other staff over the top of it, pull your throwing hand around your body and reach over the front and catch the thrown staff on that side. From here you are set up to go straight into the opposite backcross throw with the other staff.



you will probly find that your backcross throw hasnt got much oompf! the easy way to add a bit of height to it when you are just starting out is to do 'pop' it up using your legs, so as the staff backcrosses you are bending at the knees and as its coming up for release you 'pop' your legs straight. This little push is all you need to get that control happening.



In essense its a thrown extension to the doubles parallel rvs btb weave.



have fun - I love this one.



my fav variation is at the moment, backcross throw to underleg catch

the staves should be in time with each other.



Also, the throw doesnt have to be over the shoulder, it can be done from in front of your body - a bit like a poi:crossers position.



O yeah, I should add that the move I posted can be done the other way round too (as can all moves I guess) ie; drop from front reach around behind and catch btb.







DSS say:

Written by:


Swinging outward reels in wall plane. With the right hand do a "double spin" behind, then instead of moving back to the front of the body bring the right hand behind the back with pinky side leading to the waist wrap position.



The act of doing this really twists you up cause it's kinda like a triple spin which isn't easy to do (in the outward reel behind position).



Then throw from behind the back waistrwrap position. This can then be caught by the right hand after a 180 turn (of the body).



The "triple spin" seems unnecessary and excessive (sometime painfull ) but the benefit (I believe) is a better throw because you have nearly a full revolution of unwinding in the waistwrap position before the throw.





From Rob's staff thread

Bluecat say:

Written by:
foot catch and throw

this is a continuous move, the staff never stops and never touches the ground...and can be used in singles or doubles:

nb i prefer my right hand for obvious reasons but as with all other moves this is just because of my non-perfect ambidextrosity, so if you're left handed just change in ya head what i'm saying.:



spinning vertically in reverse direction(leading with pinky) in wall plane to your right.

as the staff is coming to the front let it drop to a foot catch, slightly more staff away from you than in towards you, then do a flick up...



the easy way to practise is to get the staff to stop on the ground in the right position to do a (juggling) kick up. then slowly work oyour way towards doing it without any loss of speed or touching the ground.




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mo-seph


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Posted:Yay, homework! biggrin biggrin biggrin

Nice one DSS! It'll take me a while to work through that! I've got a couple to post, I think, but I need to read through what you've got to make sure I'm not duplicating...


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bluecat


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Posted:


Written by:




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Minero say:

Written by:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


1) ok... bit of a strange one this, came to me as i was burning myself last night trying something else new....which is also quite nice so maybe i will start with that one then the one with throws....i guess i should have read the naming threads to find out what this is all called but i will try to make it clear...both hands doing what i think is called reverse rotor(?) with alternate timing, then when coming to the front each staff does a head roll to the same hand, looks a bit sloppy if you catch in front, but behind with extra wraps....wow. so...the hard version. as one staff does a head roll the other is thrown giving enough time to swap hands on the first one...then turn 180 and go the other way(or there are ways of getting back from forwads rotor to reverse without the 180 but then you are in extra combos...)
2)
mmmmmm fabulous, got some new throws and wraps, double throws only a few tho... kind of links into contact stuff this one - contact one staff on top pof the other so you are only holding one(nice way into it charles is to go from the double palm spins you mentioned in another thread, throw one up(must be same direction!!!) and land it on the other) then spin both above your head and throw... catching is just a cas of keeping your eyes on the centres....easier said than done, but a beautiful move....
enjoy
have to say hto just been getting smoother, not too much new throwing, but wraps, oooooohhhhhh....
ax
3) start both staffs horozontal, left hand acw, right hand cw. as they come up together in front of you throw them both so one passes just above the other, then catch same time in opposite hand... then to get back to the start position you can snake them both(clubswinging terms, sorry) and pass accross in front of you....





i'd forgotten about these. still do all of them i think, but took me ages to recognise my own descriptions or understand them. wonder if they are as indecipherable to everybody else....? ubbangel

the cross throw(no 2) is still one of my favourites, and is getting higher and higher.....


away to have a quick go at these other ones...

hugs
Rob


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Charles
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Charles

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Posted:Written by:
i'd forgotten about these. still do all of them i think, but took me ages to recognise my own descriptions or understand them. wonder if they are as indecipherable to everybody else....?





I used to think that about ALL text based staff descriptions, until i printed some out and went out on my lunch break to tets them with a staff in my hand.

It's sooo much easier actually doing it piece by piece with a staff, than trying to nut it out in your head in front of a screen!


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Pyrolific
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Posted:nice work DSS

*pats DSS on back*

smile

Josh


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Klaymen



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Posted:Awesome, useful list.

- Klaymen


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Bender_the_Offender
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Posted:sooooooooo helpful thanks! now i hasve more time to spend on things I haven't done for weeks, like bathing...

Laugh Often, Smile Much, Post lolcats Always

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mo-seph


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Posted:Written by: bender

sooooooooo helpful thanks! now i hasve more time to spend on things I haven't done for weeks, like bathing...



If you get that to work, could you post a step-by-step on how to do it? It's getting a bit smelly round here... biggrin


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Pyrolific
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Posted:One that Ive been playing with lately which isnt in the list (I think).

Kudos goes to Knoxious for showing me the move as part of a nice combo he came up with which I'll leave for him to describe.

Underarm throw
----------------------

Can be done on both sides (ie cross body or same arm) with one or the other or both sticks)

-Start with staves spinning at sides in wheel plane (unless you are seriously good at fingerspins, this isnt a permanent stance, so get into it and then do the move).

-do a back of hand roll and catch staff so that you have a longer portion of it sticking out the top of your grip (more like poi).

-let the stick rotate around and under your arm (as if you were going to lock it up for a reversal) but make sure that the long end is coming up behind your shoulder, then let go as it comes to your armpit giving it a bit of a lift. It should spin forwards up over your shoulder and out in front of your body again where you can catch it in the same hand.

----

this move is very similar to how you go into a shoulder roll in contact, you just give it a bit more omph, and it flys up! smile

Sorry if this has been described already.

Josh


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mo-seph


mo-seph

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Posted:Yeah, nice! I hadn't thought of doing this one as a throw, I've always been trying to keep it on the body - you can do it with both staffs simultaneously, and then you can straighten your arms as the staffs come over and they go over your forearms and end up in your hands, as a nice way to finish it.

I found that the earlier you let go, the more the staffs fly up, if you let go a bit later they roll, and if you let go even later they stall (which seemed slightly counter intuitive...)

Right, time to beat myself round the head with lumps of metal biggrin


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DeepSoulSheep
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DeepSoulSheep

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Posted:I've had this down with clubs a good while but works with stick too.



Outward reels.

From BTB butterfly waistwrap position (eg right hand BTB at left hip) throw across front of body to other side. This can be caught in the right hand and should work as a doubles move though I haven't tried it yet with sticks.



I have been doing this with one stick and found I nice variation which is my favourite at the moment. Throw the same from say, left hip. Throw across body going for a 360 rotation and catch at right hip by reaching your left hand btb. biggrin



Another interesting throw I learnt recently is say from right hand outward. Thow up, walk forward and catch blind BTB. This is easier than it first seems. Simply throw and walk forward underneath it.



The catch is done with the palm of your hand facing backwards. When you throw, know when your going to walk under the staff, know where the heads are as you do. Start slow and low and build up. I have hurt my wrist catching these (but so far not my head).



Also I have been mostly throwing with my right hand and catching BTB with left but you can also catch in your right hand which opens this up for doubles throws. ubbrollsmile

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mo-seph


mo-seph

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Posted:OK, couple of little ones...

Doing parallel rotors, as the staffs pass in front of your body, with your arms at their lowest point, turn your body so the staffs are now in wall plane on the left and right sides, and throw both together. I do the catch with my elbows facing up and my thumbs/palms outwards, as this gives an extra spin, but you can catch them the sensible, natural way as well wink. After the catch, turn your body 180 as your arms come up for the second half of the rotor, and when your arms are at the top of their rotation, throw both staffs again, and catch them sensibly wink.

Seems like a lot of description for something that seems simple.

More of a catch than a throw, and I might have posted it here before, but throw a normal forwards rotor, not too high yet, and then put your neck between the staff and the ground. Don't aim for the centre - you want the staff to be just past vertical, and you aim your neck to meet the bottom half of the staff, so that the centre will be *just* past the side of your neck. This means that the momentum goes into a nice roll instead of a nasty bruise biggrin. Feels lovely when it works, good softness practise.


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DeepSoulSheep
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DeepSoulSheep

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Posted:First one sounds deadly. biggrin



How many spins have you been putting on before the neck catch? I don't think I could manange even half a spin. Are you rolling over your shoulder and catching in opposite hand afterwards?

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mo-seph


mo-seph

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Posted:I can't do this very reliably frown but I can get at least one spin in before it comes down - it's almost easier, as you've got more time to "lock on" to the spin.

As for what happens after, I've generally just been grabbing it with the hand that didn't throw when it comes under my neck. But the plan is to be able to carry on contacting and never use those fingers, not even for a moment wink When I can spin round into a throat roll, then I'll be happy. (oooh - how about throat catches instead of back of neck catches... Hmmm, maybe not...)


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Antti_Everything
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Antti_Everything

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Posted:This is one of m favourites at the moment.. sorry for bad description, i don't have any clue on english terms for even basic spinning, but here goes

snake & back throw for double staff

- spin the staves like in reverse butterfly (with poi) but so that the other is in front when the other is in the back (what do you call this?)

- do a high snake throw in the front with right hand

- with left, do a lower throw from behind your back, so that it comes infront of you (over your right shoulder/head), and catch it with the same hand and continue spinning

- catch the snake throw with the right, spin

- then the same, on opposite hands.. left first

it looks really nice.. i'm not really sure what i do with the staff going for the back throw. something like when you spin the staff back, instead of bringing it back front keep it going for a double spin or something and then throw.. it helps if you throw the front snake first just a bit earlier than the back throw, but they are basically simultaneous throws.

i have it on mpg and try to put it on the net for you to see. in a few days.

.


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Pyrolific
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Posted:sounds nice Nekobasu, would love to see what youre up to smile

Josh


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Antti_Everything
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Antti_Everything

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Posted:You'll hopefully see me or us on the next COL video. I'll send our video tomorrow. It's 4 minutes of only double/triple throws and passing and called..

"The Amazing Rubber Heart Duo" presents "Soy on everything part I"

We have a lot of extra-but-still-cool video material that didn't fit in the 4 minutes so we'll make a part II of that material for the internet.. but that'll be around in 2 months when i return from travels and have time to make it.

I have trouble with my FTP so I can't probably put this snake/back-throw video on my site. It's 3,5 Mb.. i can send it to you on email, if you want to

.


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Pyrolific
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Posted:LOL nice name dude smile

I cant recieve email that big - i'll wait til you can get it online.

Josh


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Knoxious
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Posted:yo Josh - Thanks fo rthe kudos...I was doing that throw as a buzzsaw..but woteva wink
Also... offtopic join Yahoo and you can send/recieve 10meg files and you get 100meg storage
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Antti_Everything
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Posted:here's some more

starts with the same spinning i described so badly earlier

1 throw from the front with the right
2 transfer in the front under the throw from left to right
3 catch (1) with left and do a wrist throw immediately
4 transfer (2) behind the neck to left again
5 catch (3) with right and go to spinning
6 as (4) comes to the front throw with left as in part (1) and start the combo on opposite sides

this is a good ground for different combos. you can change for example

1 snake-throw under the left arm
throw from the back or armpit to the front

2 transfer behind the back
throw (1) higher and this one low and catch (2) first so it's like a throw-transfer

3 transfer behind the neck

4 throw as in shower or reverse cascade from your front
throw from behind the neck

so my 2 favourites with this one is maybe

1 throw from the armpit to the front R
2 transfer in front L - > R
3 catch/wrist throw L
4 shower throw R (we call this combo of part 3&4 an ether throw, when staves spin opposite directions, both in the air, one flying over the other)
5 normal R
6 catch and spin to the armpit throw L

and

1 throw from underarm R
2 transfer in front L -> R
3 catch, transfer behind the neck L -> R
4 behind the neck throw R
5 right comes to front
6 catch and immediately throw underarm L

i hope i explained everything right.......


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Antti_Everything
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Posted:Written by: Nekobasu


1 throw from underarm R
2 transfer in front L -> R
3 catch, transfer behind the neck L -> R
4 behind the neck throw R
5 right comes to front
6 catch and immediately throw underarm L





hmm.. about parts 3 and 4.. you start going for the transfer and then throw the behind the neck throw and then make the transfer. i didnt really explain it clearly.

---------
and variations on the throw Josh was explaining, similar to btb Poi spinning.. we actually call it btb throw when its done this way and from the armpit.

so the basic is right throw - left armpit - catch with right from the left side - vice versa continuous

as a double btb throw.. throw both staves, the other from the armpit and the other at the same time from the same side but higher. you can catch these either way-- in same hands or opposite hands, and you can make this also continuous. if you catch them in the same hands (right catches the one that right threw and left-left) theres a bit more spinning before getting to the next double throw on your right side.. catching them on opposite hands brings you to the next throw faster as you catch the right one earlier with your left and start bringing it to you your right armpit while you catch the higher throw from left with your right on your left side-- bring it to your right side and throw both again.

---------
about naming throws.. so for our video we called this the btb throw.. a throw from the back going over your opposite shoulder to your front we called a throw from the back------ i guess it shouldve been named a 'back cross throw' according to proper juggling terms.

if you know a complete thread about names for Staff Spinning let me know. or video examples. all i know is the finnish names for these. or the names we use. and a lot of time theyre the wrong ones..


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DeepSoulSheep
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Posted:Sounds nice Nekobasu it'll take me a while to understand 'em though me things.

Something quick and interesting in the mean time though. Say you throw clockwise in the air. You can do a quick contact to immediate throw by aiming to catch the stick on your wrist by going for the right half of the stick as you see it spinning in the air.

As it lands you make quick clockwise circles. The stick will spin around your arm and fly off in the air again. Kinda hard to explain but you can do continual throws nicely from it. You can also do this contact deely into a throw instead of catching from it and then going into it. smile


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Antti_Everything
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Posted:yeah i thought of that one also some time ago.. had a marvelous idea how to use it. cant remember it though.. it was something like a Poi spinner / or a master of fingerspinning / or a master of timing catches a staff pass this way and throws it back with a hand that she/he is already spinning something....... and the audience would be like.... eek confused ubblove...

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DeepSoulSheep
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Posted:ooo sweet biggrin

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DeepSoulSheep
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Posted:Ok, what are you calling a snake throw? confused

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Antti_Everything
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Posted:A throw from the snakespin. I found this from a staff move names thread by Mo-seph

----As far as I know, "snake" comes from clubswinging; they're techniques to get extra beats in your pattern by allowing different parts of your arms to lock, and then turning *something* to release that lock. So if you're spinning a staff "forwards", and when it's in front of you and you would normally push it round to the back for the second beat, you leave your arm there so that it "locks" against your forearm, then rotate that round your elbow to release it, then that's a snake. (Or if you listen to mcp, half of a snake, but that's a different kettle of monkeys. And they're monkeys you really don't want ). Theres a similar one behind you, and then the same in reverse.----

so you can use it to catch and throw the staff back up right away... or you can affect the timing of a throw this way by giving the staff a second beat... before throwing it. make sense?


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DeepSoulSheep
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Posted:Yea I know what club swinging snakes are and that front against the forarm lock was the one I thought you meant but the fact that I haven't tried to throw from it and I can't imagine it's a very accurate way of throwing I figured I misunderstood you. smile

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mo-seph


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Posted:I'm still slightly confused as to what you mean smile

I always used to throw from a figure 8, as the staff was coming across my front, with the back of my hand facing the sky.

Recently (cheers slackass...) I've started "preparing" throws, and letting it have an extra half beat in front, so I then throw from palm up. This is the same movement as a forward snake - if you didn't throw it you'd have to bring your forearm over and behind to uncoil.

Is that the same as what you're talking about Nekobasu? I think it is, just want to make sure smile


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DeepSoulSheep
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Posted:No entiendo confused
EDITED_BY: DeepSoulSheep (1088693278)


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Antti_Everything
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Posted:yep. thats the one.

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