Forums > Social Discussion > some people will they never just accept we're all just people

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Dunc
Dunc

playing the days away
Location: The Middle lands
Member Since: 19th Aug 2003
Total posts: 7263
Posted:a dissapointing news item but hopefully it will be a wrong soon righted.

As additional info I've been to this area of france and the people are terribly homophobic. The government even want to suspend the Mayor for sanctioning this

eat me, drink me, click me


Let's relight this forum ubblove

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griffin
griffin

feminine tiddly pom
Location: cambs england
Member Since: 4th Jun 2004
Total posts: 505
Posted:silly silliness
dunno wot else to say


in state of metamorphosis

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Charles
Charles

Corporate Circus Arts Entertainer
Location: Auckland
Member Since: 27th Jun 2001
Total posts: 3989
Posted:Yes we are all just people..that's right...even the people challenging the recent changes...they are people too...

And if there is anything I have learnt about people in my almost 3 decades of life, its that people are VERY resistant to change.

It'll sort itself out, but most people could see this sort of reaction coming a mile off...give a bit of time... wink


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Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13920
Posted:Predictable. frown

-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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SpitFire
Mand's Girl....and The Not So Shy One
Location: Calgary, Alberta Canada
Member Since: 2nd Dec 2002
Total posts: 2723
Posted:mad2 censored mad2

*ahem* Sorry. I'm just frustrated on many fronts these days, and the resistance to this particular change really does put up a huge hurdle for Mand and I. All we want to do is be able to live our lives together, but it seems we've got to find another country to live in to do that....and immigrating is not easy.

Anyone know of an immigration lawyer? wink

SF....in need of hugs.


Solitude sometimes speaks to you, and you should listen.

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Pink...?
Pink...?

Mistress of Pink...Multicoloured
Location: Over There
Member Since: 6th Apr 2002
Total posts: 6140
Posted:Yeah i read that on BBC news. It's so silly.
What difference does it make who you marry? Doesn't hurt anyone!

ubblove


Never pick up a duck in a dungeon...

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DeepSoulSheep
DeepSoulSheep

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Berlin
Member Since: 25th Sep 2002
Total posts: 2617
Posted:I found this very interesting.

Firstly from the viewpoint of the South African governments standpoint.

Secondly the conservative attitude of black south africans which seems to have been inherited years before. And the extremes to which this has come through from the Namibian president and that somewhat unpleasant fellow Mugabe.


I live in a world of infinite possibilities.

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Dunc
Dunc

playing the days away
Location: The Middle lands
Member Since: 19th Aug 2003
Total posts: 7263
Posted:I never realised it was so bad to not be hetro in SA. Now that realy takes courage to come out the closet with its such a high chance of being attacked and killed, especially with that stupid law about detaining them if you find them.

ubbcrying


Let's relight this forum ubblove

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Dai
member
Location: Aberystwyth/ Newcastle
Member Since: 12th Aug 2003
Total posts: 22
Posted:I think the law on detention went out with apartheid, anyhow all 'civilised' countries should offer ANY couple the right to marry surely banning discrimination on the bases of sexual orientation should already cover this although the issue with religious marrages is slightly more complicated considering so many religions are still openly homophobic and religion is such a touchy subject in many areas of the world

even a frisbee is a lethal weapon in the hands of the wrong person

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Mags The Jedi
Mags The Jedi

Fool
Location: Cornwall, UK
Member Since: 30th May 2004
Total posts: 2020
Posted:Here's the answer.

We have too many darn people. We need to cull a few and make some space. Then we can all spread out.

Then it won't matter what you do, you can do it and have no fear of reprisals from/attacks by intolerant idiots.

I'm all for living in a cave personally.

And Dai, yer right on the money about frisbees, I can hit a man at a 100 yards 9 times out of 10.


"I believe the cost of life is Death and we will all pay that in full. Everything else should be a gift. We paid the cover charge of life, we were born."

Bill Hicks, February 1988

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Mags The Jedi
Mags The Jedi

Fool
Location: Cornwall, UK
Member Since: 30th May 2004
Total posts: 2020
Posted:And another thing. Christians (no offence if you are one) are often among the first to critisize (sic) homosexuality, but if Adam and Eve had two sons, how the hell did the world get populated?

"I believe the cost of life is Death and we will all pay that in full. Everything else should be a gift. We paid the cover charge of life, we were born."

Bill Hicks, February 1988

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Dunc
Dunc

playing the days away
Location: The Middle lands
Member Since: 19th Aug 2003
Total posts: 7263
Posted:*ducks for cover from Burz* wink

Let's relight this forum ubblove

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Burzaruka
enthusiast

Member Since: 13th Apr 2004
Total posts: 233
Posted:Hehehe

I wont steal this topic, but man that is a fun debat tongue


Anyhow, what is marrage? What is a civil union? Why is there a difference?

A big question, why are the tax laws differnt?

Perhaps before the question of should gays be allowed to marry can be answerd, those questions should be answerd.

Perhaps there is a combination of answers that can make it to where there is no need to even have a question over who can marry and who can only have a civil union.


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MiG
MiG

Self-Flagellation Expert
Location: Bogged at CG
Member Since: 16th Apr 2004
Total posts: 3415
Posted:umm, mags, i think that would be incest, rather than homosexuality.


does that mean that every single person on earth is inbred?


"beg beg grovel beg grovel"
"master"
--FSA

"There was an arse there, i couldn't help myself"
--Rougie

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Mags The Jedi
Mags The Jedi

Fool
Location: Cornwall, UK
Member Since: 30th May 2004
Total posts: 2020
Posted:I guess it does.

The problem is that there's a lot of money in telling people what they can and can't do. And as long as we live in the society you see around you, the more money those people will make, and the more they will try to control everything.

Me thinks I have wandered from the path... offtopic


"I believe the cost of life is Death and we will all pay that in full. Everything else should be a gift. We paid the cover charge of life, we were born."

Bill Hicks, February 1988

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Burzaruka
enthusiast

Member Since: 13th Apr 2004
Total posts: 233
Posted:Huh?? Where is the money in telling two gay people they cant marry? Sorry to be an acomplis in pulling this off topic, but I had to ask that question.

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Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13920
Posted:I agree with Burz. There's no money in it.

Power, yes. Comfort, yes. But no money.

Personally, I think marriage is outdated as a legal term. Let people get civil unions and if people want to get married, they can do that in a house of worship.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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NYC
NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Member Since: 26th Aug 2001
Total posts: 9232
Posted:Tons of money in it.

The people with the money don't want it. Look at Bush's contributors... and add up all the dollars contributed by the religious right.

Go to the Vatican, then go to ACLU headquarters and tell me which building is prettier.

See the money now?


Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

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Burzaruka
enthusiast

Member Since: 13th Apr 2004
Total posts: 233
Posted:The ACLU is the biggest anti-christian organisation out there. Anti-Christian Liberal Union. Get rid of the crosses but leave the Greek Gods. Hmm... anyhow

NYC, lets look at some facts:

Gay marrage, is it a US issue or a World issue? World issue.

Therefore it is bigger than Bush. Your anti-Bush sentiments could be better put to use elsewhere.

How old is the Vatican when compared to the ACLU?

Who has more supporters/followers?

The ACLU is an organisation of hate and moral perversion, while the vatican is a symbol of peace. It should look better wink


I think that the government should have nothing to do with who gets married. Marrage is something done before God, and as it is a religious term, the government should have nothing to do with it. A civil union is done before a judge or some other form of justice of the peace. Therefore it has more to do with the government. There should be no leagle difference in the definition. Two people, leagaly joined be they civily joined or married. The taxes should be the same, and I would think that the governments would get more money that way from taxes VS setting up a differnt Tax Bracket for civil unions.

I think the US should follow the UK's example and licence the building that does the cerimony or union vs. the people taking part.

Even though I don't agree with homosexuality, nor do I feel they should be "married", there should be no difference between a marrage and a civil union in the eyes of the government and things like insurance companies and what not.


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Dentrassi
Dentrassi

ZORT!
Location: Brisbane
Member Since: 9th Apr 2003
Total posts: 3044
Posted:Written by: Burzaruka

Gay marrage, is it a US issue or a World issue? World issue.

How old is the Vatican when compared to the ACLU?
Who has more supporters/followers?

The ACLU is an organisation of hate and moral perversion, while the vatican is a symbol of peace. It should look better wink

I think that the government should have nothing to do with who gets married. Marrage is something done before God, and as it is a religious term, the government should have nothing to do with it. A civil union is done before a judge or some other form of justice of the peace. Therefore it has more to do with the government. There should be no leagle difference in the definition. Two people, leagaly joined be they civily joined or married. The taxes should be the same, and I would think that the governments would get more money that way from taxes VS setting up a differnt Tax Bracket for civil unions.

I think the US should follow the UK's example and licence the building that does the cerimony or union vs. the people taking part.

Even though I don't agree with homosexuality, nor do I feel they should be "married", there should be no difference between a marrage and a civil union in the eyes of the government and things like insurance companies and what not.



hiya burzy!! couldnt resist a few points.....

i agreee its is a world issue - its currently being debated fiercely in in oz - strange how the gay marriage issue only came up whe the oz govt. was under fire for iraq & abu gyraib prison.... political diversion? i think so.....

but US is the onlyt 'superpower' left. Bush does have significant political power.....
but Bush is still a twat smile but thats just my opinion.....

Written by:
vatican is a symbol of peace

is it? the vatican has hardly had a perfect 'peace' record - however, lets not delve into that now, if you wish to debate -send me a PM.

i think the most underestimated issue with the entire gay marriage debate is what the actul gay community think.

the problem is, we all think differently.....

some want to have fully church and govt recognised marriages.
some believe marriage is a hetro thing, and we should ignore it.
some dont care about the official side. they just want the same rights as hetro couples.
some only want civil unions, nothig before god.

plus many other points of view. the gay community is far from decided.

i dont really thing ive made a single point in this post.... but read into it as you will. im overly tired and not thinkin straight so thoughts are wayward.


"Here kitty kitty...." - Schroedinger.

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Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13920
Posted:Written by:
The ACLU is the biggest anti-christian organisation out there. Anti-Christian Liberal Union. Get rid of the crosses but leave the Greek Gods. Hmm... anyhow



Only if "Christian" is defined as "make everyone else conform to your beliefs by law."


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Mags The Jedi
Mags The Jedi

Fool
Location: Cornwall, UK
Member Since: 30th May 2004
Total posts: 2020
Posted:I know very very little about the ACLU so I can't comment on that. Marriage though, doesn't have to be anything to do with religion does it? It's a contract, which makes it more a legal issue than a faith-based one.

Maybe I'm wrong, maybe that's just how i see it.

Love is what's important, not who you give your love to.


"I believe the cost of life is Death and we will all pay that in full. Everything else should be a gift. We paid the cover charge of life, we were born."

Bill Hicks, February 1988

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Xopher (aka Mr. Clean)
enthusiast
Location: Hoboken, New Jersey, USA
Member Since: 8th Jun 2004
Total posts: 456
Posted:I agree with Lightning. If your definition of "anti-Christian" is "against Christianity being imposed as a state religion," (and a narrow vision of Christianity at that), then the ACLU is anti-Christian. So am I, in that sense. But so is everyone in the Episcopal Church where I sing every Sunday (well, not in the summer, it's hot as a Christian Hell in there), including the pastor. So is the bishop and (virtually) everyone in the diocese.

It's the age-old problem: when people are used to having special privilege, and you take away that special privilege away (even by granting it to others), the formerly-privileged feel discriminated against. This is natural and human but not rational.

Example: I had a Radical Feminist college professor once. All the guys I knew complained that she never let men speak, and that she ignored them completely. When I took her course, I kept track. She called on us men about a third of the time; since the class was 2/3 women this was exactly fair. Normally, you see, the men who complained could count on being called on in preference to any woman who might want to speak; they (incorrectly) perceived the loss of this privilege as discrimination.

Britney Spears is married for 55 hours, and that's sacred before God. Del Martin lives with the same woman for 50 years (yes, that's fifty years) and that's some sort of travesty? Sorry, that's just plain ridiculous.

Did you know that the current Christian marriage ceremony derives from blessings of "special friendships" between same-sex people? These ceremonies were done in the physical church building, because they were about love. Marriages, which were primarily about property (marriage for love is a very recent phenomenon), could not usually take place in the church. Yes, even the part about being allowed to kiss only after the ceremony was complete was originally between two men, or more rarely between two women.

There was a guy in California who died because his partner of many years wasn't allowed to donate part of his liver to save him. Why not? He wasn't a "relative," which a legal spouse would have been. (The lover won his suit, but it was too late.) More commonly, it's much cheaper to get insurance as a couple than as two individuals, and if only one has income (frex if one is sick or a stay-at-home dad), married couples often pay lower taxes, too.

So if you're opposed to same-sex marriage, I will tell you that you lack a historical perspective; that you lack compassion (wasn't that a Christian virtue until recently?); and that you want us to continue to be economically exploited, yea verily unto death.


"If you didn't like something the first time, the cud won't be any good either." --Elsie the Cow, Ruminations

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Burzaruka
enthusiast

Member Since: 13th Apr 2004
Total posts: 233
Posted:My friends hold up a bit...

The ACLU has attacked repeatedly Christian symbols in public and government buildings and government related areas, and repeatedly ignored non-Christian symbols. Therefore they are seen as anti-Christian in my opinion.

Marrage is a religious sermiony, therefore the governments should have no say or control over it.

Was Britney properly wed? I Don't know, the whole tabloid thing... bah not any of my business, however if I recall she wasnt sober wink

Written by:
Did you know that the current Christian marriage ceremony derives from blessings of "special friendships" between same-sex people? These ceremonies were done in the physical church building, because they were about love. Marriages, which were primarily about property (marriage for love is a very recent phenomenon), could not usually take place in the church. Yes, even the part about being allowed to kiss only after the ceremony was complete was originally between two men, or more rarely between two women.



HUH?? Where do you get this from? Perhaps I am reading it wrong, but I am gonna need some proof before I can accept this.


I am against same sex marrage, for my religious stances. I don't think they really need to be debated on this thread, however, if you consider same sex marrages to be biblical I suggest that you read Ph. 4:8.

Please, provide some sort of historical evidence if you are going to claim something like that.


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SpitFire
Mand's Girl....and The Not So Shy One
Location: Calgary, Alberta Canada
Member Since: 2nd Dec 2002
Total posts: 2723
Posted:http://www.buddybuddy.com/mar-prim.html
br>


Sorry Burz, but your beliefs regarding same-sex marriage are discriminatory.



The document above outlines what marriage is at the state and local level.



On the state level, in the eyes of the government, marriage is a civil contract. People get married by judges instead of priests or ministers all the time, so your claim that marriage is a religios thing is not accurate.



There is a separation of church and state, and that was founded when our country was founded, in theory. There is very good reason to keep religion and politics in separate rings. This country was also founded on freedom of religion. You are welcome to believe what you want, but respect MY RIGHT to believe what I WANT. I'm not hurting you or infringing on your rights, which is what's important.



As for ancient same sex marriages, there's been tons of research on it, and the Roman Catholic Church recognized same sex marriages between men centuries ago.



The article above hasa link to books which outline the history of same sex unions through out time.



By denying homosexuals the right to marriage, you deny us over 1000 federal rights and privileges given heterosexual couples. That is discrimination.



That you can marry a foreing woman and get her a green card so that she can become a citizen, yet I can't do the same with the woman I love is discrimination.



Equity across the board, regardless of sexual orientation. That is all we want.



Is that too much to ask? No...I don't think so.


Solitude sometimes speaks to you, and you should listen.

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Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13920
Posted:Written by:
The ACLU has attacked repeatedly Christian symbols in public and government buildings and government related areas, and repeatedly ignored non-Christian symbols. Therefore they are seen as anti-Christian in my opinion.



Please read Amendment I of the United States Constitution and then get back to me.

I will remind you that the Ten Commandments is NOT a Christian symbol, it is a JEWISH symbol. The ACLU seeks to maintain the seperation between RELIGION and state. However, seeing as how Christianity is the dominant religion AND is populated by zealots who are determined to turn this country into a theocracy, the ACLU spends most of its time battling Christian fanatacism.

But they are far less anti-Christian than Bush is anti-Muslim.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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NYC
NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Member Since: 26th Aug 2001
Total posts: 9232
Posted:REALLY WELL SAID SPITFIRE! ubblove



Written by: Burzaruka


The ACLU has attacked repeatedly Christian symbols in public and government buildings and government related areas, and repeatedly ignored non-Christian symbols. Therefore they are seen as anti-Christian in my opinion.





You need to take up your issue with those that wrote the constitution. The ACLU is using that document as impitous for all their actions, including defending the KKK and other 'unpopular' acts. If you've got a problem with separation of church and state, you've got a problem with America.









Marrage is a religious sermiony, therefore the governments should have no say or control over it.









That's simply not true. The government has always had a say on what marrage is and isn't. EVERY marriage licence in this country must be obtained through the government.



</font><blockquote><font class="small">Written by:</font><hr />





I am against same sex marrage, for my religious stances. I don't think they really need to be debated on this thread, however, if you consider same sex marrages to be biblical I suggest that you read Ph. 4:8.









Ahh... got it... I can't argue with God. I've tried. Those that want to use God to justify anything are always 'right'. Whether it's using God to justify opressing homosexuality or using God to justify flying planes into buildings... God always wins.



I fold.


Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

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Xopher (aka Mr. Clean)
enthusiast
Location: Hoboken, New Jersey, USA
Member Since: 8th Jun 2004
Total posts: 456
Posted:I got it from Same-Sex Unions in Premodern Europe, by John Boswell. That page has links to several other books about the church and homosexuality. Boswell is a well-respected historian. Don't demand historical evidence and then refuse to examine it.

By the way, I'm completely against any attempt to FORCE any religion to sanction same-sex marriage. I insist on my right to have the LEGAL status of a married person with another man, that's all. And I don't care what you call it, as long as it has the same legal status as marriage in all respects. In practice, that means you have to call it 'marriage', because otherwise we'd have to sue all over the place to get the married-couple discount at the B&B, etc ad nauseam.

Britney was legally married for 55 hours. I doubt there was any religious component to either the wedding or the divorce (in Las Vegas you can be married by an Elvis impersonator, remember).

And what on Earth do I care if gay marriage is "Biblical"? Not my book. Note that I show respect for your holy book by capitalizing its name, which you do not. The most sacred text of my religion says that "all acts of love and pleasure are [the Goddess'] rituals." I marry straight couples without hesitation or resentment; I haven't done a same-sex couple yet, but only because I haven't been asked.


"If you didn't like something the first time, the cud won't be any good either." --Elsie the Cow, Ruminations

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Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13920
Posted:I fold against God, too. But, fortunately, God didn't write the Constitution. In fact, He was specifically written out of it.

So the argument that something shouldn't be permitted because it is not Biblical is simply not a valid argument in this country.

However, I challenge you to name ONE (just one!) incident where the ACLU tried to prohibit any Christian from freely practicing his or her own religion in a manner that did not disrupt others' lives, activities, or right to peace and privacy.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Xopher (aka Mr. Clean)
enthusiast
Location: Hoboken, New Jersey, USA
Member Since: 8th Jun 2004
Total posts: 456
Posted:NYC, I trust 'fold' is some kind of poi move that I'm too ignorant to know yet...actually it sounds more like a flag move. :-)

Seriously, don't give up. We have to convince this person that his religion cannot justify the legal oppression of others. Or just make it clear to all other readers that his objections are unfair.


"If you didn't like something the first time, the cud won't be any good either." --Elsie the Cow, Ruminations

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Xopher (aka Mr. Clean)
enthusiast
Location: Hoboken, New Jersey, USA
Member Since: 8th Jun 2004
Total posts: 456
Posted:And I don't fold against God! My gods are as good as yours, and they say I'm OK. So there.

"If you didn't like something the first time, the cud won't be any good either." --Elsie the Cow, Ruminations

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