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Forums > Social Discussion > some people will they never just accept we're all just people

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Dunc
GOLD Member since Aug 2003

Dunc

playing the days away
Location: The Middle lands

Total posts: 7263
Posted:a dissapointing news item but hopefully it will be a wrong soon righted.

As additional info I've been to this area of france and the people are terribly homophobic. The government even want to suspend the Mayor for sanctioning this

eat me, drink me, click me


Let's relight this forum ubblove

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:Xopher, I can't fight God. Neither can you. You'd have better luck trying to prove a Pope from Galileo's time that the Earth is round.

-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Xopher (aka Mr. Clean)


enthusiast
Location: Hoboken, New Jersey, USA

Total posts: 456
Posted:(sings)"My God's better than your God..." Silly.

Seriously, I'm not trying to convince Burz that his beliefs are wrong, or that he should change them, but only that his beliefs -- even if they're right! -- do not entitle him to impose them on others in a free society.

But I'm kind of a tireless loonie about this sort of thing. As a consequence, I have many friends in the "enemy" camp...but many of my friends think I'm crazy.

And hey, I can demonstrate the speed of light with a microwave oven and a bag of marshmallows...don't count me out of the Pope thing just yet!


"If you didn't like something the first time, the cud won't be any good either." --Elsie the Cow, Ruminations

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Burzaruka


enthusiast


Total posts: 233
Posted:That is not the topic, my religious views. Ignore them. I cant believe that you cant see that even though I disagree with gay "marrage", I still support equal rights despite sexual orientation.

People who get married by a judge, isnt a marrage, it is a civil union. My sister's second marrage was done by a judge. It is and was a civil union.

SpitFire I am not against you. Please understand that. I am in support of your rights.

I want you to have the same rights as hetero couples. Please listen to me. Dont just assume things, go back and re-read what I have said.


Yes Lighting, Judeao-Christian symbol and the Cross that was on the LA County seal, that was a Christian symbol. But the greek goddess on the seal was ignored.

Okay, I see that you cant seem to keep Bush out of any conversation, really sad. Really really sad.

I am in support of leagle rights for homosexual "married" couples, or otherwise. Quit attacking me over it, read what I say, please!

I don't understand you people. I specifically come out and support your rights, you take the fact that I am not pro-gay as a threat towards you or people you know. I am no threat, I dont agree with your lifestyle, I think it is a choice and a sin. You can't change the way I think of it, but I am not bringing that to the table. I am flat out 100% in support of equal rights.

Marrage, through matrimony, is religious. Yes I realise this is a little bit differnt from what I have previously said, but in looking though a dictionary I have learned that there is a specific differance between a marrage and a marrage through matrimony.

So, allow me to rephrase or recant anything that I have previously said. Gays, go get married, but I wont agree with a Holy Matrimony between two homosexual couples. I don't believe homosexuality is Holy, so how can it be a Holy Matrimony?

Sorry to change my stance on this a little bit, but, that is part learning, debating and keeping a far more open mind on this topic than most would think.


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Xopher (aka Mr. Clean)


enthusiast
Location: Hoboken, New Jersey, USA

Total posts: 456
Posted:If the only aspect of gay marriage you're against is having it happen in your church, then you're right. And you're definitely right that changing your opinion is key to any good-faith discussion.



As I said above, we need the name 'marriage' to get full and equal rights. Roman Catholic gays can argue with the church over Holy Matrimony, as can any gay members of any other denomination or faith (Moslems have a hard row to hoe on that one). It's the legal rights that are important, and even if you think I'm a sinner (not recently, alas!), I for one am glad to have any and all allies that can be gathered to support that cause.



Bush IS relevant, though. He's trying to get the US Constitution amended to ban same-sex marriage. That's a matter of law, and with your stated positions, you must oppose him on that issue.

EDITED_BY: Xopher (1086903314)


"If you didn't like something the first time, the cud won't be any good either." --Elsie the Cow, Ruminations

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SpitFire
GOLD Member since Dec 2002

Mand's Girl....and The Not So Shy One
Location: Calgary, Alberta Canada

Total posts: 2723
Posted:Thank you for clarifying, and thank you as well for supporting equal rights for everyone....really, that's all we want.

Don't appologize for changing your stance...you've learned...and grown, and that's what's important. We all have...

I specifically wanted to point out the difference between a secular, civic marriage and a religious one. Most hetero couples have both, though not all do.

Whether homosexual couples seek a Holy Matrimony is between them and their church. However, the church shoudl have no say on whether we have the right to get married.

Thank you, Burz, for changing your stance, even just a little bit. That little bit is a big difference. I don't want to change your beliefs....your beliefs are your own as mine are my own. If you can see the difference, and understant what it is we're looking for...which is the legal right to get married...then perhaps others who feel same sex marriage is immoral, and thus should be banned can come around. Spread the word, if you can.


Solitude sometimes speaks to you, and you should listen.

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Valura
SILVER Member since Apr 2002

Valura

Mumma Hen
Location: Brisbane, Australia

Total posts: 6391
Posted:people fall in love with other peoples spirits and souls.... who give a [censored] if they are in the same physical body. Disallowing ANY couple in love to choose to marry is a close minded view that smacks of discrimination and it is disgusting.


Written by:
That is not the topic, my religious views. Ignore them.



ok...gets rather difficult when you insist on preaching though...

Written by:
I dont agree with your lifestyle, I think it is a choice and a sin



some people will just never learn... censored rolleyes


TAJ "boat mummy." VALURA "yes sweetie you went on a boat, was daddy there with you?" TAJ "no, but monkey on boat" VALURA "well then sweetie, Daddy WAS there with you"

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Burzaruka


enthusiast


Total posts: 233
Posted:SpitFire, I thank you for taking a second look and understanding what I said.



Valura, you preach as much as I do. I did bring my religion into this, but it was to say that even though I view homosexuality as wrong and immoral, homosexuals should be privy to the same rights as everyone else.



The US Declaration of Independence, states Written by:
We hold these truths to be self-evident; that all men are created equal and independent; that from that equal creation they derive rights inherent and inalienable, among which are the preservation of life, and liberty, and the pursuit of happiness; that to secure these ends, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just power from the consent of the governed; that whenever any form of government shall become destructive of these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new government, laying it's foundation on such principles and organizing it's power in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness.





All men are equal and should be treated as thus. Despite their mental or physical capability, despite age, race, religion, creed, sex, sin or perfection, we are all equal and should enjoy equal rights.



Now, am I really being biased? No.



Am I really "Disallowing ANY couple in love to choose to marry "? No.



Come now Valura, am I really preaching any more than you?



I believe the same as you, on a lot more topics than you know. We are not that dissimilar. Please, lets not be so hostile towards each other. Our religious views may differ in some areas, but that is about all that can possibly prevent us from being not only civil towards each other and perhaps eventually from being friends. If we would both agree to disagree, I think we would both be able to look at the other in a different and much more pleasant light.


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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:Written by:
I think it is a choice



You are incorrect, sir. This is a fact and is not open to debate.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Valura
SILVER Member since Apr 2002

Valura

Mumma Hen
Location: Brisbane, Australia

Total posts: 6391
Posted:First and foremost I had nothing agaisnt you and still do not. I choose not to condemn people. I will admit though that I have taken offense at what you have continued to push on me and others in this forum which is a quite accepting and open forum.

Written by:
Am I really "Disallowing ANY couple in love to choose to marry "? No.



stop taking everything so personally that part of the post was never intended for you.

I have not once preached at you matey. You have no idea about my religion.

now back onto topic.

Everybody has the right to love and to be in love and to also have that legally recongnised.
In my honest opinion every single soul has the right to have the same recongition and not have their taxes based on their sexual orientation.
This makes me cross because I am bisexual and if I had chosen to be with a woman for the rest of my life that doesnt mean I am a lesser person nor entitled to less than anyone else who practises differently under the sheets...

I fell in love with a man... and I am the happiest I have ever been, but shudder to think of the discrimination I would have to endure If I wanted to marry a woman....


On the weekend I am lucky enough to be a witness and guest to one of my best friends/ work mates wedding

She is a woman. Marrying a woman.
I am damn proud of her for having the strength to face so much oppersition and stand proud with her girlfriend of 8 years. ubblove ubblove
Im sick of the so called majority stamping on the dreams of hundreds of people..


TAJ "boat mummy." VALURA "yes sweetie you went on a boat, was daddy there with you?" TAJ "no, but monkey on boat" VALURA "well then sweetie, Daddy WAS there with you"

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:BTW, I'm still waiting for that example of the ACLU stopping Christians from practicing freely, excepting where it involves trying to push religion into the public space.

-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Flynt
SILVER Member since May 2002

Flynt

Intrepid Penguin


Total posts: 5635
Posted:I'd just like to interject for a minute.

Curious as to whether or not marriage was an institution based on religion, I did some searching this afternoon and found this:

It is very hard to be able to establish a true date on the first marriages although the Old Testament in the Bible does mention a little about marriage as it was considered a family and household affair. The oldest male relative was the caretaker of the girls and the prospective husband would ask the father for the girl after first bringing him gifts to win his approval. The mother was dominated by the father and had no choice in the matter. The father would transfer the daughter to the prospective husband in public as they showed that he approved this transfer and that the groom had the father's approval. After this transfer the bridge and groom ate a meal together with the families and then the groom took the bride home. In the Old Testament of the Bible there is no mention of a formal exchange of vows or of a preacher or priest being present at this union.

It would apprear that marraige is not based on religion, nor the necessity of a priest or religious persona being present, but rather the approval of the father of the bride on the suitableness of the groom.

There are certainly many stories of hand fastening before religious ceremony came into the tradition of marraige. The idea of a wedding ring came from the Romans (note: not the christian romans) to symbolise their intent of faithfullness.

It seems that history would show that a marraige is simply this, A union of two people, witnessed by their family or loved ones, with some sort of pledge or sign of their binding.

As such, I do not see any reason at all why same sex marraiges shouldnt happen.


Currently on the right side up of the world.

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Flynt
SILVER Member since May 2002

Flynt

Intrepid Penguin


Total posts: 5635
Posted:Other than the fact that I cant spell Marriage. rolleyes

Currently on the right side up of the world.

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SpitFire
GOLD Member since Dec 2002

Mand's Girl....and The Not So Shy One
Location: Calgary, Alberta Canada

Total posts: 2723
Posted:Now...if we could just convince the politicians within the United States Government!

And...get them to give Mand a visa!!


Solitude sometimes speaks to you, and you should listen.

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Dunc
GOLD Member since Aug 2003

Dunc

playing the days away
Location: The Middle lands

Total posts: 7263
Posted:Thanks flynt that's really good what you've posted hug And thanks for bringing this back on topic properly!

Written by: Burz
I view homosexuality as wrong and immoral, homosexuals should be privy to the same rights as everyone else.

smile

Now if you could explain yourself that well each time you posted Burz and stopped being so critical of others the religion thread would still be open, but please stop swaying this one so far off topic. This is about the people who stop marriage happenning and it ain't all religion based

Thanks you please hug2


Let's relight this forum ubblove

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Faberg
GOLD Member since Aug 2003

veteran
Location: Dublin, Ireland

Total posts: 1459
Posted:not trying to sway this off topic again, but just thought this was an interesting read.....

SpitFire, good things happen to good people. I sure hope things work out for Mand & yourself hug ubblove hug

peace


My mind not only wanders, it sometimes leaves completely smile

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SpitFire
GOLD Member since Dec 2002

Mand's Girl....and The Not So Shy One
Location: Calgary, Alberta Canada

Total posts: 2723
Posted:Interesting read, Faberge...thanks for the link.

And....thanks for the supportive words. smile

hug hug

ubblove


Solitude sometimes speaks to you, and you should listen.

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SpitFire
GOLD Member since Dec 2002

Mand's Girl....and The Not So Shy One
Location: Calgary, Alberta Canada

Total posts: 2723
Posted:Virginia passed a law banning not only marriages between same-sex couples, but also civil unions, or other and arrangements "purporting to bestow the privileges of marriage."

angry angry angry angry
censored censored censored censored
mad2 mad2 mad2

Small minded, bigotted bastards.


Solitude sometimes speaks to you, and you should listen.

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Dunc
GOLD Member since Aug 2003

Dunc

playing the days away
Location: The Middle lands

Total posts: 7263
Posted:What?? That's crazy!! How can this sort of thing happen? Are we living in the 1800's or something??

Let's relight this forum ubblove

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Xopher (aka Mr. Clean)


enthusiast
Location: Hoboken, New Jersey, USA

Total posts: 456
Posted:Virginia is NOT for lovers.

Don't vacation there, or spend money there, or buy things online from stores that are located there (if you can tell).

Gay people, move to other states. Clearly your contributions are not wanted in Vagina. They can go to hell, and take their tobacco with them.

Ooo! Wanna know how to REALLY hurt Virginia? QUIT SMOKING.


"If you didn't like something the first time, the cud won't be any good either." --Elsie the Cow, Ruminations

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:Written by:
Ooo! Wanna know how to REALLY hurt Virginia? QUIT SMOKING.



Hell yeah!


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Valura
SILVER Member since Apr 2002

Valura

Mumma Hen
Location: Brisbane, Australia

Total posts: 6391
Posted:"Clearly your contributions are not wanted in Vagina"

lol
so sorry, I just had to point out the freudian slip...

now back to normal programming....

BTW mand and spitfire.... spirit tells me that you are going to be fine.. there will be a way and when the opportunity is presented to you, I know you will take it...
So much love to you both!


TAJ "boat mummy." VALURA "yes sweetie you went on a boat, was daddy there with you?" TAJ "no, but monkey on boat" VALURA "well then sweetie, Daddy WAS there with you"

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Burzaruka


enthusiast


Total posts: 233
Posted:I am sorry our opinions differ Lightning, but that is the way life goes sometimes.

Valura, who cares if you preach or if I preach? I wasnt cramming anything down anyones throats, in fact I was really trying to tell everyone that I can be more open minded than people give us Christians credit for.

I am glad your friend has found happiness. I dont have to agree with it to be supportive.

At current I have a friend who's marriage is in the gutter. Her hubby has cheated on her, and at current she is in love with a man whom she has never met. Though I disagree religiously with her, I am so happy to see her finally happy. All the negative garbage she has gone through... and now she is truly happy.

I think it is good to be happy.


Lightning, take the LA County seal, for instance. A cross and a Greek goddess, both are on the seal. Tell me, what symbol of religion was removed and what was allowed to stay? Both are symbols of religion, just keep that in mind.


Marriage, as I have said before, isnt necessary based on religion, however marriage, via Holy Matrimony is. There is no Biblical wedding ceremony. The Jew, correct me if I am wrong, have a 7-day wedding. I have seen Methodist and Catholic weddings last for several hours. I have also seen weddings last for about 30 minutes. A wedding isnt really religious in any aspect unless you are wed under Holy Matrimony. There is the difference and that is where the church stands, in my opinion, or at least where they should stand.


If the definition of open mindedness (or a real word tongue ) is accepting everyones views, then wouldnt

Written by:

Small minded, bigotted bastards.




be a perfect description of closed mindedness?

Wait one minute Xopher, why hurt the people of Virginia? Is that really logical, moral, or ethical? The way state governments work is that the elected officials can pass a law, and they really don't need to hold a vote over it. I could be wrong, but I really don't think the general populous of Virginia really had much to say in the matter.

So, please redirect your anger towards the government of Virginia, after all, it is where it belongs.


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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:Written by:
Lightning, take the LA County seal, for instance. A cross and a Greek goddess, both are on the seal. Tell me, what symbol of religion was removed and what was allowed to stay? Both are symbols of religion, just keep that in mind.



The one that represented a religion that is currently practiced, as opposed to an ecumenical symbol that represents a concept, rather than a set of values.

Now, nowhere in that ruling was Christians' right to practice in any way harmed. Please find an example or stop calling the ACLU Anti-Christian.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Burzaruka


enthusiast


Total posts: 233
Posted:This is not the topic to discuss the ACLU and their Anti-Christian sentiments. Yes I know I brought it up, therefore, I choose to move it to private as it will no doubt, offend somebody.



So, Lightning, in a little while, check your PMs.



Edit-

I am willing to send the PM that I made to Lightning to anyone who sends me a PM requesting it. However I can only do this if Lightning sends me my original message back because I didn't save it. hehe ubbangel

EDITED_BY: Burzaruka (1087011982)


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Onion
GOLD Member since May 2004

Onion

member
Location: Brisbane, Australia

Total posts: 30
Posted:so... sticking to the topic...

i think progress is the ultimate force in this issue.
No government, no organisation, and in fact, no religion, can supress the will of the people forever. I think gay marriages will be accepted all around the world in time. Not tomorrow, but in time. I hope that we (humankind) uses the time we have to settle our differences so that one day we can look to the future together.

and only then will we be great.

unless of course aliens are thrown into the equation there somewhere, but lets just deal with the known variables.


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Xopher (aka Mr. Clean)


enthusiast
Location: Hoboken, New Jersey, USA

Total posts: 456
Posted:Written by: Burzaruka
If the definition of open mindedness (or a real word tongue ) is accepting everyones views, then wouldnt

Written by:
Small minded, bigotted bastards.



be a perfect description of closed mindedness?



Perhaps, but your definition of openmindedness (a perfectly legitimate word) is absurd. If someone said that Christians are just a blight on the landscape, and that we should bulldoze all the churches, preferably on Sunday morning so they'll be full, do you have to accept that view? No, and neither do I. I would tag that person a small minded, bigoted bastard, not to mention a murderous lunatic (if I thought s/he was serious), and probably call the police.

Written by: Burzaruka
Wait one minute Xopher, why hurt the people of Virginia? Is that really logical, moral, or ethical? The way state governments work is that the elected officials can pass a law, and they really don't need to hold a vote over it. I could be wrong, but I really don't think the general populous of Virginia really had much to say in the matter.

So, please redirect your anger towards the government of Virginia, after all, it is where it belongs.



Oh, don't be childish. The people of Virginia elected that government, and they are responsible for its actions. (Yes, that means that the people of the US are responsible for the atrocities in Abu Ghraib, and that's why I'm currently ashamed of my country.) Moreover in terms of action there is nothing people in New Jersey (where I live) can do directly against the government of Virginia (except sending money to saner politicians running against the current smallminded bigoted bastards, and that's kinda on the slow side). ONLY economic action makes a state listen up, unless the courts get involved.

If the people of Virginia really didn't want laws like that, the legislature wouldn't pass them. Why? Because they want to be reelected. And I didn't hear about a public outcry, hundreds of letters to the ledge, or mass protests, did you?

Also, you will note I didn't say we should bomb them into the stone age or something. I have a perfect right to spend my money where it does good, or no harm, and not to give it to people who offend me. I can't do anything about my tax money (currently going to a lot of things I wouldn't countenance), but I can stop my own purchases from going to fund reprehensible practices. In fact, to the extent I'm aware of such funding chains, I have an affirmative moral and ethical duty to do so, within reason.

So yes, it's perfectly logical, utterly moral, and completely ethical. I'll boycott the state and its products until they elect better leaders and change their smallminded, bigoted laws. I urge all people of goodwill and sound judgement to do the same.


"If you didn't like something the first time, the cud won't be any good either." --Elsie the Cow, Ruminations

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Burzaruka


enthusiast


Total posts: 233
Posted:Yes, they elected them... So... the city councel of Hoboken NJ, do they do everything that you would expect them to do? No, they don't, you elect someone that you THINK will represent you and your wishes best. This does not always mean they will do so.

I disagree with you on the Abu Ghraib case, no elected officials knew about it, just appointed ones as far as I know, and you dont elect the military either.

If you are so ashamed of your country, then the only logical thing to do is to run for office or throw your entire support behind someone who is. You only need to be 18 and put up a $100 fee to run for mayor in many towns. I have a belief that if you are not prepared to fix something, don't complain about it. Also, helping someone fix something is just the same as doing it yourself.


You can spend your money where you want, but it isnt ethical to cry foul over an entire state. I am sure there is atleast one homosexual in the entire state of Virginia, are you prepared to go to a perverbial war against them too? What if they don't want to move? Is it ethical to wage your war of the dollar against them too just because of where they live?

Ladies and Gents, in the US the people run for office, the people elect the people in office, the people are the government, if you dont like the way the US is run and you can meet the prerequrisets to run for office, then do so. Please, in all truth, sitting here on this message forum does little good. Get out there, vote, run for office, campainge with someone, whatever you do, please dont complain about an issue if you arnt prepared to make the decission to stand up for what you believe in.


Written by:
Perhaps, but your definition of openmindedness (a perfectly legitimate word) is absurd. If someone said that Christians are just a blight on the landscape, and that we should bulldoze all the churches, preferably on Sunday morning so they'll be full, do you have to accept that view? No, and neither do I. I would tag that person a small minded, bigoted bastard, not to mention a murderous lunatic (if I thought s/he was serious), and probably call the police.



Acutally if you were open minded, you would have to accept it. Accepting doesnt mean agreeing. In truth, nobody is open minded, we are all closed minded on certain subjects.

It is kind of like, you have a white shirt with a black spot on it, do you really have a white shirt? Nope, you have a black and white shirt.

You dont have to agree with something to be open minded, you just have to accept everything everyone tells you about everything.


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MiG
GOLD Member since Apr 2004

MiG

Self-Flagellation Expert
Location: Bogged at CG

Total posts: 3415
Posted:you know, i really dont hold some hick dirt farmer, that doesnt even know anything outside of his farm, let alone another country called iraq, exists, in the middle of northsouth butthole to be responsible for what went on in Abu Ghraib. Nor do i hold Jimmy the pimp responsible for it either, given that all his effort goes into doing his thing. In fact, i'd say that at least 90% of americans had either no part, or no idea of what went on in that prison. And that is a conservative estimate. Ok, yes, that 90% did elect the government, or however the voting system over there works. However, i sincerely doubt that at any time in the election campaigns was a war in iraq mentioned, whether it was on the cards or not. And i really doubt even more so that bush, or colin powell, or whoever said 'yep, we're going into iraq, and we're gonna build us a prison, or take one over, as the case may be, and get some iraqis, and we'll torture them, just for fun'. I reckon its more of a power trip thing, in the whole 'hey, i just conquered a country' vein. Im certain that could mess with ones head, just a wee bit.

"beg beg grovel beg grovel"
"master"
--FSA

"There was an arse there, i couldn't help myself"
--Rougie

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Xopher (aka Mr. Clean)


enthusiast
Location: Hoboken, New Jersey, USA

Total posts: 456
Posted:Burz, I can see that you don't think much of openmindedness. Nor would I if I defined it as you do. Tell you what, I'll define 'Christianity' as 'the practice of burning human beings alive for sadistic sexual pleasure' and then tell you you have to do that to be a Christian. Isn't definition fun?

Being open minded means that new ideas are not rejected a priori, not that they can't be rejected at all. It is, in fact, a less uncritical mental position to take than closemindedness.

And if "accepting doesn't mean agreeing," then OK, I do accept that the ledge of Virginia takes that position. I evaluate; strongly disagree; make a judgement: they are smallminded and bigoted. 'Bastards' gets added on because I'm angry, but no one uses that term literally any more anyway. If you make no judgements and never get angry, then either you're strapped to the bed in a mental ward or I'm amazed you've survived to adulthood.

As for gay people in VA, I think they should consider whether to leave or struggle. The general population of Virginia, through its agent the Legislature, has made it clear that they aren't wanted. The struggle is a political struggle, and I'd support them. But their state deserves such consequences as I can visit upon it.

I AM campaigning against the Bush junta, btw. And writing here is part of it. I cannot see anyone who loves America and knows the facts voting for him; but then a lot of people are awfully good at rationalization, or don't believe that hideous civil-rights violations can happen to THEM (they're wrong).

MiG: I was speaking of the collective responsibility of the American people for allowing such things. And you may have missed the news that some US Defense Department lawyers gave Bush an opinion (back toward the beginning of the war) stating that, effectively, torture would be legal if the President ordered it, because the power of the Law is vested in the President. That's not how it works in America, of course, nor in any democracy worthy of the name.

Also, the actual caught-on-film perps in the Abu Ghraib scandal are listing some pretty high-up folks on their subpeona petitions. They're going to CLAIM they were "just following orders." We'll see how much evidence they can cite, but hold onto your hats - it's going to be a bumpy ride.


"If you didn't like something the first time, the cud won't be any good either." --Elsie the Cow, Ruminations

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MiG
GOLD Member since Apr 2004

MiG

Self-Flagellation Expert
Location: Bogged at CG

Total posts: 3415
Posted:umm, just following orders is no longer a valid defense in a war crimes tribunal. that got canned after ww2.

dude, where is the collective responsibility of an entire nation of what, a good 50 million or so (ok, i have no idea how many people live in america), when it was the actions of MUCH less than a thousand people that actually took part in the torture? Do you really think that Jimmy the pimp, and his hundreds of thousands of kin across the country said 'hey, lets torture these iraqis?' i think not.

and yeah, i missed the news. dont watch it that often any more, and even then, its mostly local stuff. something a lawyer said to a guy in america might rate a 10 second spot on SBS (int'l channel) at about 3am on a monday morning. But then, at the time, i was living in a town with a complete grand total of 4 television channels. correct, four.


"beg beg grovel beg grovel"
"master"
--FSA

"There was an arse there, i couldn't help myself"
--Rougie

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