Forums > Beginner Staff Moves > Using siteswap for naming staff tricks?

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Antti_Everything
Antti_Everything

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Location: Jrvenp, Finland
Member Since: 12th Aug 2003
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Posted:I've been doing a lot of double staff juggling and used some siteswap terms to describe the throws. For those not familiar with siteswap, in short it's used by jugglers to describe the lenght of the time the ball is in the air or in which hand it lands (somebody can surely say it better).

so

0 is an empty hand
1 is a change from hand to hand
2 could be - the staff remains in the hand spinning
3 is a throw from other hand to the other
4 is a throw that you catch with the same hand
5 or 7 are higher versions of 3
6 or 8 are higher versions of 4

so instead of naming or explaining a trick like throw the staff from right really high and the left one lower, catch the left first with the right and then the one you threw first with your left... it could be described as a 5-3 or more correctly 5-3-0-0

We've been thinking of using this type of naming tricks for our COL video. Converting ball juggling siteswap to staves doesn't work perferct but i think it might help somebody to understand the moves easier. What do you think about this and have you used it?

Antti

The Amazing Rubber Heart Duo


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Nightstrike
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Member Since: 1st Apr 2004
Total posts: 10
Posted:good idea.

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Antti_Everything
Antti_Everything

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Location: Jrvenp, Finland
Member Since: 12th Aug 2003
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Posted:ok.. siteswaps for double staff is not maybe really useful but here's a few for three staves that are quite easy or atleast possible.

3
5 1
3 4 4 1
4 2

the ones i want to learn next

4 2 3
4 4 1

and the classic

5 3 1

.............this is starting to sound too much like juggling, but what i find interesting is the mix of large objects in the air and spinning them while in hand or stopping them nicely and changing spinning direction to be thrown in the air again, which all brings a lot of diversity and complexity to this and makes throwing three staves more than just juggling.


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DragenWulf
DragenWulf

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Location: Vancouver BC
Member Since: 5th May 2004
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Posted:That sounds cool

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Dragon7
Dragon7

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Location: Aotearoa (NZ)
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Posted:I think its a cool idea and i have no skill in juggling biggrin but it seems flawed, if only because i dont really understand. How do you count/ measure the amount of rotations that staff is doing?

Maybe you could add math equation for rotations as well ie use a letter, say:

a=no rot
b=1/2 rot
c=1 rot............ and so on. I could be wrong though, do you already have a way to count the number of rot's? If not you could change the math of site untill it would look like this

5c5d6g
3a6g4b etcetc i actually have no idea what im talking about because i dont know enough about siteswap and have no passion to ever learn juggling. But it seems to work for txt descriptions.


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Antti_Everything
Antti_Everything

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Location: Jrvenp, Finland
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Posted:hmm.. i never count the amount of rotations. all i have is a slow rotation throw and a fast rotation throw. could you explain more about this??

but if amount of rotation is needed then using letters would work but then again a high throw with 15 rotations would strech the scale from A to O and then finally to Z and this would make it harder to understand.

siteswap only describes the amount of time for the throw before it is catched. it leaves out all the trick variations, like different places to throw or catch. to understand it better, download a juggling program like jugglekrazy. you can make your own siteswaps and also understand a staff throw combination easier......

http://www.juggling.org/programs/ibm-pc/jkshare.zip


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BamBam
BamBam

Pooh-Bah
Location: London
Member Since: 1st Dec 2001
Total posts: 1810
Posted:thank you thank you thank you ubbangel

I actually understand that biggrin

Most thanks must go to Cole and the other London jugglers for taking numbers too much ubbrollsmile I'll take that nerd piss out of you no more wink perhaps....

Bammy
ubbrollsmile


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Dragon7
Dragon7

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Posted:Written by:
but if amount of rotation is needed then using letters would work but then again a high throw with 15 rotations would

eek Dont tell me you can throw it high enough to get the staff to rotate 15 times. cool

I personally have to count how many times i want the staff to rotate (1 whole circle) and also the perfect hight and pratice that untill i have it flawless, because there are points (like vertical) that make catching harder for me, and if its down flawless i can catch it in the dark without having to see it because of muscle memory.

Which YES is alot of work though i pefer that, to the "randomally throw and hope" method wink
At the max i would go for 4 full rotations, usually less. But i have set hights that i would throw say a 5 with 3 rotations move and also a 5 with 4 rot move and a 7 with 2 rot and a 7 with 3 rot. Well you get the idea...

i have a vid clip round here some biggrin where wink

Actually speaking of videos, i saw your poi and staff videos, they were badass! weavesmiley ubblol why didnt you post them in the video thread?


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Antti_Everything
Antti_Everything

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Posted:maybe not 15. but i do use fast rotating throws. where instead of just throwing staff and it rotates normally but you throw it so that it rotates.. well, fast. you know.

the muscle memory / darkness - theory sounds reasonable. have to think of that.. i just have good shiny glittery silver tape in the middle of the staff and some more after the grip so i can see them pretty well. But i definitely prefer performing on stage with some lights when doing a crazy staff juggling routine where it's all throwing.

as for my sadass videos.. the poi was for col4 and it's 1 years old and pretty much the last time i was practising poi. as for the staff video.. if you mean my staff video and not the la femme fatale-video then it was also for col4 and i got into trouble for posting it on the net..... but there's talk about a video "Soy on everything part 1" by the Amazing Rubber Heart Duo starring me and Tommi, that'll hopefully get on col5.. Some people say it's great. Part 2 will be a net release. Just give us a few months.


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Antti_Everything
Antti_Everything

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Posted:ok i counted my rotations and it's true that it's hard to get more than 4 or 5 full rotations. but if counting half-rotations then 0-5 rotations would be marked from A to K and it get's too complicated. and in the end it doesn't really make a difference in the trick how fast the staves rotate. it would just be a variation of it. and i still can't really figure out the use for counting rotations.. i think it comes automatically after a lot of throwing.. getting the right height - rotation speed - easy catches.

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bluecat
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Location: everywhere
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Posted:the video IS great.

tehee.

tommi should smile more tho wink

answer your pms oh burnt headed one.

R


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UCOF
UCOF

Carpal \'Tunnel

Member Since: 17th Apr 2002
Total posts: 15414
Posted:Looking at the site swap at eh top of this page, it looks just as if its siteswap juggling with staffs...

so its not really a staff trick.... its more of a juggling with staffs....

confused


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Antti_Everything
Antti_Everything

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Posted:confused

and juggling staffs isn't a trick? or what was the point. sorry if i missed it..


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mcp
mcp

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Location: Edin-borrow.
Member Since: 20th May 2003
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Posted:good name though The Antti!

To go with the likes of The Paper! And Miss Deep. The kind of name that ALWAYS requires a bang mark after it.


"the now legendary" - Kaskade
"the still legendary" - Kaskade

I spunked in my friend's aquarium and the fish ate it. I love all fish. Especially the pink ones. They are my bitches. - Anon.

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UCOF
UCOF

Carpal \'Tunnel

Member Since: 17th Apr 2002
Total posts: 15414
Posted:What I was trying to say..

is. You are, are you not, simply juggling with staffs?

Correct?

If so, why does the siteswap need to be invented when you are using the ball siteswap already?

I think its a great idea about letters for number of spins though... smile


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Mayhem
stick boy!
Location: Tampa, FL, USA
Member Since: 21st Mar 2002
Total posts: 117
Posted:juggling staffs is a badass trick!! "simply juggling with staffs" is not very simple IMO. and if its not a staff trick, then what is it? its not pure juggling....

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Durbs
Durbs

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Location: Epsom, Surrey, England
Member Since: 23rd Sep 2001
Total posts: 5688
Posted:I have to thank you Antti for re-inspiring me to play with doubles smile

As a non-juggler - I'd say that this seems like a good idea, but you should differentiate between number of rotations as it makes quite a visual difference, especially with fire.

How about sticking with the letters but upper and lowercase i.e.
1/2 spin = a
1 spin = A
1.5 spin = b
2 spin = B etc

Or is this making things to complicated? smile

So, as a self-test - staffs spinning the same way (acw as you look at them) left hand throws with 1 full rotation, right hand passes to left hand over head, right hand catches would be:
3A - 1a

and 2 staff shower is somewhere along the lines of:
3C - 3C

Right?


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UCOF
UCOF

Carpal \'Tunnel

Member Since: 17th Apr 2002
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Posted:nah nah nah,...thats not what I meant..

I meant..

you are, in essence, juggling with staffs.

I agree with juggling staffss being rather funky and hard. But you are still throwing them up and down, as a juggler would.

(this is not taking into the account how heavy the staffs are, or the fact that they are massive, or the fact you have to be really strong to throw them up so high)


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coleman
coleman

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Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay
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Posted:number of spins need not be specified imho.

siteswap doesn't specify which plane you are throwing in or from where (btb, in front, under the arm etc.) and it needn't.

example being that siteswap works for clubs just as well as it does for balls in spite of the fact that clubs have spin and can be thrown in different planes for greater visual effect.

the nice thing here is that all the 2 ball siteswap no-one ever bothers learning can be applied for some really nice tricks - 31 (2 staff shower) is gorgeous for example and can be done with lots of spin variations to play with (including 'flats' and 'reverse spin' which letters would have a hard time describing smile ).

*must buy bag to keep sticks in so i take them to workshops*


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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UCOF
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Carpal \'Tunnel

Member Since: 17th Apr 2002
Total posts: 15414
Posted:501 biggrin
*drool*

with staffs!!

*double drool*


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Antti_Everything
Antti_Everything

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Location: Jrvenp, Finland
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Posted:ok, i'm quite sure i almost know what you mean now.



If i understand myself then i think i was saying that we can use siteswap to describe staff tricks/throwing. throws and juggling are tricks. but nobody was using siteswap to make describing these tricks easier.



and i take something i said back. siteswap is useful for two staffs also. try 5-0-1 for example. or the follow up 7-0-3-0-0



i might've said this earlier but what i think makes juggling staffs interesting is that they are as equipment so different from clubs etc..juggling them is a combination of throwing and spinning, when you keep them spinning through the throws. and due to their larger size stopping them and changing directions is more difficult. and i want to keep my style a bit apart from juggling. i've seen jugglers grab my 3 staffs and juggle them and it looks only like juggling and not that interesting for me. so to answer your question. it's not just juggling staffs.



(took a while to write this and you had figured out the lovely 501 already... and i can tell you it looks amazing)

EDITED_BY: The Antti (1096388398)


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coleman
coleman

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Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay
Member Since: 29th Aug 2002
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Posted:you're right - keeping the sticks spinning while getting the throws to fit properly is a *whole* other ball game - i have to say i've never seen anyone do what you do with sticks.

it truly is beautiful smile

it confused me a lot when i thought about it - like the fact that if you want to throw from btb for example then you need the correct stick in the right place, in the right orientation at exactly the right time!
so juggling a continuous 501 with sticks in front of you is very different to 501 with the 5 as a backcross as you need to start the trick in a different configuration...

i took the liberty of finding some 2 object siteswaps to think about - i can't attempt these with sticks yet so i'm posting them in the hope that someone else can make use of them smile :

41122
41131
41302
41401
45001
53002
61201
64000
50140


cole. x


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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ado-p
ado-p

Pirate Ninja
Location: Galway/Ireland
Member Since: 13th May 2004
Total posts: 3882
Posted:*looks into staff forum*

*sees all the jugglers*

*laughs his head off, gives up and decides to learn siteswap*


Love is the law.

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mcp
mcp

Flying Water Muppet
Location: Edin-borrow.
Member Since: 20th May 2003
Total posts: 5276
Posted:thanks cole, you soo coool. And sooo talll.

I be seeing you on friday.

I love trying to be like antti. Short staffs are the best!


"the now legendary" - Kaskade
"the still legendary" - Kaskade

I spunked in my friend's aquarium and the fish ate it. I love all fish. Especially the pink ones. They are my bitches. - Anon.

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bluecat
bluecat

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Posted:spank

Holistic Spinner (I hope)

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Dr_Molly
Dr_Molly

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Posted:meg just wants to master Antti's "makes Finnish women go weak at the knees" move

we know the truth


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Antti_Everything
Antti_Everything

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Location: Jrvenp, Finland
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Posted:thanks coleman! those siteswaps were really cool. i'll try them tomorrow immediately.. i gotta ask my juggling teacher for more of those.

good proof of the things a siteswap can't express! somehow 6 4 0 0 0 doesn't sound quite as fascinating as the "makes Finnish women go weak at the knees" move. (i just got an idea for the next soy on everything video.)


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coleman
coleman

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Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay
Member Since: 29th Aug 2002
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Posted:antti - go here and check out the generator bit of the application smile

see yoo a la weekend megtastic hug

[quick link for ado-p and anyone who doesn't get siteswap but wants to know whats going on: ben beever's siteswap book]


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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King Of Bongo
King Of Bongo

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Location: Berlin
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Posted:I know juggling numbers but i'd never thought of number of spins before...
good system by the way.
Antti- i know they aren't exactly the same, but isn't there any numbering method for the amount of spins that could be taken from club juggling?
T&B... he's the one to ask... didn't do bloody maths of juggling for his 3rd year project at university for nothing...
geek. hug

cheers,
Ben
ubbangel


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ado-p
ado-p

Pirate Ninja
Location: Galway/Ireland
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Posted:Much obliged mister Cole smile

Love is the law.

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coleman
coleman

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Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay
Member Since: 29th Aug 2002
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Posted:ben - i don't think you need one to be honest.
as i said before, juggling doesn't have a notation specifying spin type or plane orientation for clubs.

the problem with notation systems is that for them to be concise and useable, they have to leave some information out otherwise they quickly become too complicated.

the trick is getting a notation system that saves time and can be expanded upon while not letting it become like a complex code you need to decipher for every move.


siteswap club juggling example:

text description: three club shower in wallplane, over the top club as a half spin and the low club as a pass.

siteswap description: 51 (5 wallplane half spin, 1 pass).

so you can use the siteswap to designate throw order and use text to add the extra information.

e.g. for double staff: 31 (3 as double normal spin, 1 as single normal spin pass).


if you added bits to the notation for spin you would end up with something like:

3B+1A+

where numbers designate throw order, letters designate the number of rotations and we use + or - to define spin direction.
but it could get quite confusing, very quickly methinks, not to mention the fact that there is still another variable that defines how many rotations a staff does while held in a hand...


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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