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Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13919
Posted:So I've now been a vegetarian for almost 3 years. I originally became a vegetarian because I realized I was a meat addict. There are also environmental concerns. Ethical concerns are way down on my list since I find it gets confusing for me to strongly support animal research for medical applications while opposing using animals for food. Especially because I'm not vegan.

But the final decision happened, not coincidentally, on the first day of Gross Anatomy dissection lab. ubblol

So after 3 years of almost total abstinence from meat (I'll eat meat if there is no other feasable option), I think I'm pretty much de-addicted. The idea of eating a large steak is just not at all appetizing to me.

BUUUUT, this vegetarian business is getting very inconvenient. It makes people stress over where to go for dinner, or what to cook for me. Furthermore, it significantly limits what I can order at a restaurant, and I can't stand it when the only vegetarian options on a menu feature zucchini and mushrooms (two of my least favorite foods).

So I'm starting to debate whether to de-classify myself as a vegetarian and just carry on with life eating very little meat. And by "very little" I mean less than one serving of meat a week. Since my initial reasons were for health, I don't see how this small amount of meat (which, when consumed, will preferably be organic) would change my risk factors. And such miniscule meat consumption wouldn't have much environmental impact. Besides, I have an unfortunate tendency towards anemia.

What do you think?


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura


Luminous Souls
Luminous Souls

newbie
Location: Austin, Texas, U.S.
Member Since: 25th Sep 2004
Total posts: 36
Posted:i'm a vegan, and i couldn't imagine my life any different.


Faberg
veteran
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Member Since: 26th Aug 2003
Total posts: 1459
Posted:Written by: onewheeldave

A certain proportion of meat eaters seem to be living in some kind of fantasy land, where, despite the fact that they live in houses and get their food from a supermarket, seem to be under the impression that eating meat relates to live and death survival scenarios and being manly hunters.



That's a very good point Dave.

I've had this discussion with many of my friends in the past, and you know what? Genuine survival situations aside, most meat eaters would not be able to kill an animal for food.

Ask someone to slit a lamb's throat, put a bullet in a cow's head, or wring a chickens neck, and there are very few who could/would rise to the challenge.


My mind not only wanders, it sometimes leaves completely smile


Sir_Sheep
Sir_Sheep

old hand
Location: Chester, UK
Member Since: 1st Mar 2003
Total posts: 725
Posted:Written by: Faberg

Genuine survival situations aside, most meat eaters would not be able to kill an animal for food.
Ask someone to slit a lamb's throat, put a bullet in a cow's head, or wring a chickens neck, and there are very few who could/would rise to the challenge.



True, but, rather hypocitically, I know how to do all of those.

Oh, did I mention I'm a vegan?

So, if the (insert suitably theatrical voice of doom here) End of the World does indeed happen, I'll be alright.


Spoiling Christmas for small children since 2003.


flid
flid

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Warwickshire
Member Since: 27th Aug 2002
Total posts: 3136
Posted:surely if it was the end of the world then you wouldn't be alright?


Sir_Sheep
Sir_Sheep

old hand
Location: Chester, UK
Member Since: 1st Mar 2003
Total posts: 725
Posted:Nah, I'm sure to survive, according to all the films I've seen, the (new) world needs a whiney, annoying wanna be scientist to save the day.

Either that, or I'll become a weatherman. The world needs a weatherman.


Spoiling Christmas for small children since 2003.


Prometheus
Prometheus

Diamond In The Rough
Location: Richmond, Virginia
Member Since: 30th Jun 2002
Total posts: 459
Posted:I had a friend in college who used to proclaim "I'm not a vegetarian because I love animals. I'm a vegetarian because I hate plants."

Dance like it hurts; Love like you need money; Work like someone is watching.

Never criticize someone until you've walked a mile in their shoes. That way, when you DO criticize them, you are a mile away, and you have their shoes.


Mr Majestik
Mr Majestik

coming to a country near you
Location: home of the tiney toothy bear
Member Since: 9th Mar 2004
Total posts: 4693
Posted:what a legend, thats like some people i know who are sort of vegos but eat chickens because they dont like them!

"but have you considered there is more to life than your eyelids?"

jointly owned by Fire_Spinning_Angel and Blu_Valley


NOn
activist for HoPper liberation.
Location: ffidrac
Member Since: 23rd Jun 2004
Total posts: 1643
Posted:if the end of the world happens, surely there wouldn't be many sheep or chickens... you'd have to live on cockroaches and the rotting flesh of your fellow humans... which would mean that rather than being necessarily a carnivore, you'd want to be a scavenger who eats mainly dead meat.....

nice.


Aurinko freedom agreement reached 10th Sept 2006

if it makes no sense that's because it's NOn-sense.


Nate
Nate

Groovy ga watashi no namae desu!
Location: Oxford, Oxfordshire, England
Member Since: 5th Aug 2004
Total posts: 1530
Posted:i've been a vegitarian all my life....dont find it hard to find things to eat, however i dont go to resteraunts.....also if you're a vegie dont go to asia....their idea of a vegie meal is telling the person whos eating it that it has meat in, dont know how that works but oh well..also french are annoying in the same way.....horray for the veggie's!

I like Languages.

Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hug.gif" alt="" />


flid
flid

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Warwickshire
Member Since: 27th Aug 2002
Total posts: 3136
Posted:Written by:
if you're a vegie dont go to asia



Asia has more vegans/vegetarians than the rest of the world combined!



Mr Majestik
Mr Majestik

coming to a country near you
Location: home of the tiney toothy bear
Member Since: 9th Mar 2004
Total posts: 4693
Posted:ha, maybe they all eat meat and to them being vego is being a carnivore to us!

"but have you considered there is more to life than your eyelids?"

jointly owned by Fire_Spinning_Angel and Blu_Valley


shen shui
shen shui

no excuses. no apologies.
Location: aotearoa
Member Since: 4th Jan 2005
Total posts: 1799
Posted:well.. considering there was 20 pages of discussion here and i only read the first two (man it takes AGES to read them all... and its funny when you want to reply to something someone said but it was written 6 months ago... kinda missed the party on "that" one... <chuckle>), this may have already been said.

karma.

there. said it. there is less karma in eating vegetables (and other plant matter) than in eating animals because animals are "higher" evolutionary.

and im sure this is gonna open up many cans of worms, so i'm going to go into hiding.

<hides>


those that know, dont say. those that say, dont know.


Stone
Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 13th Jun 2001
Total posts: 2830
Posted:Says Who????

The Buddha was not a vegetarian, nor is the Dalai Lama



wink


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh


Havokist
Havokist


Location: Manchester
Member Since: 20th Dec 2004
Total posts: 2530
Posted:there was once a random guy, who said to someone with a pen and paper, and he said

"im not a vegetarian because i dont like killing animals for meat, im a vegetarian because i dont like vegetables"

or something along the lines of that


We are the music makers, We are the dreamers of dreams,
Wandering by lone sea-breakers, And sitting by desolate streams;
World-losers and world-forsakers, On whom the pale moon gleams;
We are the movers and shakers of the world for ever, it seems.


shen shui
shen shui

no excuses. no apologies.
Location: aotearoa
Member Since: 4th Jan 2005
Total posts: 1799
Posted:Written by: Stone

Says Who????


wink




why does there need to be someone to say it?


those that know, dont say. those that say, dont know.


stickman
World Champ Procrastinator
Location: ||...lost...||
Member Since: 25th Jul 2004
Total posts: 580
Posted:Written by: Havokist

"im not a vegetarian because i dont like killing animals for meat, im a vegetarian because i dont like vegetables"





haha, ubblol ubblol i like that one.. and very valid too biggrin



roarfire
roarfire

comfortably numb
Location: The countryside
Member Since: 8th Jul 2004
Total posts: 2676
Posted:Hmm...well I don't eat red meat if that means anything. Don't like it, don't trust it...but I eat chicken, cheese, eggs, drink milk etc

I know too many strict vegans and most of them tend to annoy me - be it trying to force their views on me, looking down upon me because I'm not a vegan, or just not being able to eat anything I offer. It doesn't offend me it's just annoying having to stress about what one person can eat.

My brother has been vegan for a few months, I admire him for it because I never could but I can't say 'hey do you want some such and such too while I'm up?" and then I always remember 'Oh wait...you can't eat that, get something yourself'. He's a fairly strict vegan so delves deep into gellotin (is it gellotin, can't remember) ethics and whatnot.

I'm kind of over vegetarianism...Sorry if that sounds selfish and cold. I don't mean it to be, I'm just a bit sick of it.

I do think, however, that supermarkets should have a vegan friendly aisle. It would be easier for everyone.


.All things are beautiful if we take the time to look.


nearly_all_gone
nearly_all_gone

Pooh-Bah
Location: Southampton
Member Since: 3rd Aug 2004
Total posts: 1626
Posted:Being "over" vegetarianism.. why? What's to be over? I don't understand why you're sick of a thing which people believe in strongly enough to live their lives by.

Sorry I just found that a bit disrespectuful/ignorant. Maybe I misunderstood.


What a wonderful miracle if only we could look through each other's eyes for an instant.
Thoreau


onewheeldave
Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield
Member Since: 28th Aug 2002
Total posts: 3252
Posted:Written by: Havokist

there was once a random guy, who said-

"im not a vegetarian because i dont like killing animals for meat, im a vegetarian because i dont like vegetables"





As previously explained in this thread, a person who consumes meat is actually responsible for roughly 10X the amount of vegetation destruction than if they simply got their sustainance directly from plants.

So someone who truly hated plants would not waste their time eating plants when they could eat mainly meat and be responsible, indirectly, for far more plant destruction.
wink


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!


peles_paynim
peles_paynim

member
Location: the fascist states of amerika
Member Since: 12th Dec 2004
Total posts: 80
Posted:geez, am i really going to talk about this...i get so tired of explaining why i'm a vegetarian to people..they assume i'm like "oh, don't hurt the little animals"...WE are animals...animals eat animals..however, on a self-sufficient farm, you would never be able to achieve a balance with your land and consume meat on the level that we (americans) do..at one time, 80% of our population was involved in one way or another with the food we ate...now, a handful of companies put family farmers out of business using the same outdated subsidies that were set up to HELP those same family farmers...our livestock has been seperated from our agriculture..there is no rotation, no putting the manure back in the land (without shipping it across the country)...whoa...sorry..i'm going to go and talk about poi now....

real eyes
realize
real lies


roarfire
roarfire

comfortably numb
Location: The countryside
Member Since: 8th Jul 2004
Total posts: 2676
Posted:I didn't mean to sounds disrespectful or ignorant it's just ..I don't know. I's hot enough here already, I'm not going to get into such a heated debate, I should never have posted in this thread... frown

.All things are beautiful if we take the time to look.


firedancingfairy
enthusiast
Location: Australia
Member Since: 23rd Aug 2003
Total posts: 201
Posted:I'm a vegan. I love animals and they are my friends. You wouldn't eat your friends or your family would you? ubbloco

Also, the dense vibration of having something killed in your system isn't natural. It's an amazing feeling to be full of natural nutrients free from harm and karma free! hug

I don't understand how someone could be vegetarian and then have second thoughts!... and it isn't that difficult darling. Most restaurants have vegetarian alternatives.

make friends with people that are vegetarian so you can maintain your discipline! juggle

Don't look back! Stay vegetarian and feel great! smile



shen shui
shen shui

no excuses. no apologies.
Location: aotearoa
Member Since: 4th Jan 2005
Total posts: 1799
Posted:Written by: onewheeldave

So someone who truly hated plants would not waste their time eating plants when they could eat mainly meat and be responsible, indirectly, for far more plant destruction.
wink



good.
call.
dave.
<smiles>


those that know, dont say. those that say, dont know.


shen shui
shen shui

no excuses. no apologies.
Location: aotearoa
Member Since: 4th Jan 2005
Total posts: 1799
Posted:Written by: firedancingfairy


The dense vibration of having something killed in your system isn't natural.



hug
i fully agree with this.
eating animal flesh keeps your own vibration lower than what it would be if you didnt eat it, which means that it'd be more difficult to transcend yourself...
not eating animal makes me feel lighter and helps my meditations to be deeper/stronger etc...
etc.
etc.
etc.
rolleyes


those that know, dont say. those that say, dont know.


brodieman
brodieman

old hand
Location: london
Member Since: 11th Jul 2003
Total posts: 1024
Posted:hmmmm an intresting subject, i suppose it really is simply a matter of personal choice, read through a few posts.
One odd comment, eating meat is not natural, well it kinda is, the world is a delicate eco system humans started off omivore, and things for a few hundren years were balanced.
Native americans have been eating meat but they pay respect for what they eat.
Erm, i think some of the veggies are correct in the fact that as humans in general we eat too much, and by over farming we have messed with eco-balance.
Well their are far too many humans so i guess the only logical way to correct this imbalance, is to eat people.... makes sence to me. smile



Stone
Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 13th Jun 2001
Total posts: 2830
Posted:Hi firedancingfairy, as a recent convert to flexitarianism, I understand your sentiments, but disagree with your assertions ie. Written by:
Also, the dense vibration of having something killed in your system isn't natural. It's an amazing feeling to be full of natural nutrients free from harm and karma free



Plants are also killed for food, so having something killed in your system is natural. We also inadvertently consume a large number of insects while asleep. Though, whether insects are sentinel beings has not been determined by the powers to be wink

Meat is just a natural a food source as plants, but its the balance thats important. The real problem, imo, is overpopulation, and too much reliance on meat in the diet, which is a bad thing for many reasons already stated. While farming comes in for a lot of criticism, another concern I have is over fishing of our oceans.

Vegan diets are not natural because you cannot get all your nutritional requirements from plants. You have to supplement a vegan diet with Vit B 12. Also, many women on vegetarian diets suffer from anaemia due to insufficient iron in the diet. I have flexitarian friends who eat only small amounts of because they prefer meat as a source of iron.

Lastly, what is a karma free nutrient?

smile


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh


peles_paynim
peles_paynim

member
Location: the fascist states of amerika
Member Since: 12th Dec 2004
Total posts: 80
Posted:just a quick thing about the iron...people who get a craving for rare meat should try cooking a veggie dish in a cast iron skillet...you get residual iron from the pan.. i had a veggie pregnancy with no problems...i ate nothing..broth, gelatin...for, mmm, 7 years and had no probs..but i found myself craving things like spinach, beans..if you listen, you'll know what the machine needs

real eyes
realize
real lies


Stone
Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 13th Jun 2001
Total posts: 2830
Posted:Hi peles_paynim,

and if your favourite tree is showing symptoms of iron deficient then just bang a nail in the trunk, yeah right.

That iron fry pan thing is another vegetarian MYTH, and has been previously discussed.


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh


onewheeldave
Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield
Member Since: 28th Aug 2002
Total posts: 3252
Posted:Written by: Stone


We also inadvertently consume a large number of insects while asleep. Though, whether insects are sentinel beings has not been determined by the powers to be wink







wink



According to the dictionary: sentinel n lit guard, sentry



so, some insects would be sentinel; for example many of the social insects like bees, ants and termites which live in organised colonies that have to be defended against other groups, and which post watchouts to guard against intruders.



Others, like solitary beetles, would not be sentinel.



-----------



However, I'm not sure how this relates to the vegetarian issue; perhaps-



sentient adj fml having feelings and consciousness



would be more appropriate, as many vegetarians could refrain from meat consumption on the grounds that they don't want to be responsible for the death/suffering of conscious beings with feelings.



On the question of whether insects are sentient, such vegetarians may well see the question as not particularly relevant as nightime insect consumption would be something they couldn't avoid.



smile


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!


firedancingfairy
enthusiast
Location: Australia
Member Since: 23rd Aug 2003
Total posts: 201
Posted:Plants don't experience the pain and terror of being slaughtered, being put in cages, factory farming etc.

Meat is not a natural food source, in my opinion. I highly disagree with that statement. It is a dead animal, you are causing harm, you are an instrument in murder. Overpopulation is just one of the many factors that attribute to the negative effects associated with meat eating to the consumer, the animals, the enviroment.

Vegan diets are 'natural'... I think saying that they are unatural is a misuse of the word. Maybe you mean 'unhealthy'>? Anywho, vegan's don't survive on plants! rolleyes We eat plenty of grains, legumes and other healthy products that keep us feeling great. With a diet like this you're not falling into the trap of preprepared food. Everything is made with love and attention and you truly appreciate what you're eating.

Karma free food has no ingredients that have been killed for your selfish desire.

Peace peace



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