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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:So I've now been a vegetarian for almost 3 years. I originally became a vegetarian because I realized I was a meat addict. There are also environmental concerns. Ethical concerns are way down on my list since I find it gets confusing for me to strongly support animal research for medical applications while opposing using animals for food. Especially because I'm not vegan.

But the final decision happened, not coincidentally, on the first day of Gross Anatomy dissection lab. ubblol

So after 3 years of almost total abstinence from meat (I'll eat meat if there is no other feasable option), I think I'm pretty much de-addicted. The idea of eating a large steak is just not at all appetizing to me.

BUUUUT, this vegetarian business is getting very inconvenient. It makes people stress over where to go for dinner, or what to cook for me. Furthermore, it significantly limits what I can order at a restaurant, and I can't stand it when the only vegetarian options on a menu feature zucchini and mushrooms (two of my least favorite foods).

So I'm starting to debate whether to de-classify myself as a vegetarian and just carry on with life eating very little meat. And by "very little" I mean less than one serving of meat a week. Since my initial reasons were for health, I don't see how this small amount of meat (which, when consumed, will preferably be organic) would change my risk factors. And such miniscule meat consumption wouldn't have much environmental impact. Besides, I have an unfortunate tendency towards anemia.

What do you think?


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield

Total posts: 3252
Posted:Written by: Stone



lol: Dave, read the thread from the beginning and you tell me about fudging. Yes, Ive picked up a few points along he way. You guys really had me worried with that morning glory one. Then, what was that analogy about serving the flesh of humans in restaurants. The infamous black and white photos. Or all the other religious, emotive and unscientific arguments presented to justify your cause. Bottom line: I am not a cannibal and I do have the right to speak on injustice.





So I guess your answer to my question "Could you reflect on what I'm saying about fudging?" is 'no'.

Fair enough.

Whatever's happened in the past I'm currently focusing on the here and now, and I've blatently been making a sincere effort to get this discussion away from emotive arguments and linguistic tricks.

But like I said before, if you don't wish to address this problem, then I'd rather focus my replies to those who are going to respect them.

I've put forward my feelings of what I don't like about your approach to this discussion, and I've asked you to put forward anything you don't like about mine (my approach here and now, not 5 pages back).

If you don't wish to do so then fine, but, until you do, there's no point me discussing vegetarianism with you.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne

Total posts: 2830
Posted:I was leaving:

But I dont understand Lightnings response Lets not forget that a good portion of the population of India is vegetarian. And they seem to be reproducing just fine. Perhaps its a set up? Well a good percentage of the Indian population live in abject poverty where starvation is an everyday occurrence in this protein starved country. It has been my observation that survival is paramount, and even when things are extremely bad, we still manage to sow our seed. Or was it a reference to declining fertility rates in the West? Perhaps diet induced?

OWD said if you don't wish to do so then fine, but, until you do, there's no point me discussing vegetarianism with you.

Does that mean Ive won? wink wink wink Look, Ive presented some good data and supplied links to some premier Australian research sites, and I really do take exception to this reoccurring threat of yours that you will pack up your marbles and leave. I grew up on a dairy farm, and perhaps I overact, but by the same token you should appreciate that it is also difficult to wade through some of the emotive stuff that gets presented as fact.

To be perfectly honest I dont know if meat is essential for heath. IMO eating meat is part of the natural process for our species, so I dont see why I should be condemned for it, or is it that I am a barbarian" who is yet to evolve to a higher level of existence?


beerchug


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield

Total posts: 3252
Posted:I've found some of your replies annoying, I can't expect you to address that unless I tell you what I find annoying; so I've been telling you.

You seem to be saying that what you find difficult is emotive stuff presented as fact, so, if in my recent posts I've presented something emotive as fact then the best thing is for you to point it out, then we can resolve it.

From my point of view, I'd very much prefer that you keep it to one specific example initially, so I can deal with it properly.

As for 'packing up my marbles and leaving'; what I'm trying to say is that I'm unhappy with your approach to this discussion on vegetarianism, and I'm not going to continue it until we establish some mutually agreeable guidelines as to how it's going to continue.

I think that's understandable and fair; I've certainly been above board and open about it.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne

Total posts: 2830
Posted:For crying out loud Dave, what do you want me to do, apologise for not agreeing with you?

Are u trying to start a flame war?

To be candid, I find your autocratic attitude annoying, especially when you start moderating others peoples threads or prohibit discussion in a discussion forum.

But hey, Im not complaining. Ill discuss issues with all here, hopefully without prejudice. So stick YOUR guidelines, Im happy with the HOP guidelines. I hope this is as close to breaking them as I get for while. Chill


peace


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:No, Stone. It's about the fact that before rampant overpopulation, generations of Hindus have done just fine on vegetarian diets.

The point is that meat is not necessary for health. I am going to emphasize MEAT, as opposed to animal products in general. Veganism is a different story, entirely. And it does require supplementation.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield

Total posts: 3252
Posted:Written by: Stone


For crying out loud Dave, what do you want me to do, apologise for not agreeing with you?







No

Written by: Stone


Are u trying to start a flame war?







No



Written by: Stone


Chill







rolleyes Likewise to you Stone.



I've tried my best.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne

Total posts: 2830
Posted:Ok Lightning, perhaps it is a bit over the top to suggest that meat is essential for survival. But is meat necessary, as part of a balanced diet, to achieving our maximum genetic potential? And I also think that overpopulation is cause of many of the processes that moral vegetarians appear to object to.

Ive been looking at a few vegetarian sites, and I would like to seem some quantification when people say medical studies prove or many scientific studies have concluded; like in the following quote for example. Because I suspect that if the studies were undertake, then all they are really saying that over eating meat causes all these problems.

Written by:
Medical studies prove that a vegetarian diet is easier to digest, provides a wider range of nutrients and imposes fewer burdens and impurities on the body. Vegetarians are less susceptible to all the major diseases that afflict contemporary humanity, and thus live longer, healthier, more productive lives. They have fewer physical complaints, less frequent visits to the doctor, fewer dental problems and smaller medical bills. Their immune system is stronger, their bodies are purer, more refined and skin more beautiful. Those who eat flesh are far more likely to contract cancer than those following a vegetarian diet are. Meat-eaters ingest excessive amounts of cholesterol, making them dangerously susceptible to heart attacks. Many scientific studies have concluded that eating meat can seriously damage your health.



If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Spanner
BRONZE Member since Feb 2003

Spanner

remembers when it was all fields round here
Location: in the works... somewhere...

Total posts: 2790
Posted:Written by: Stone

I would be very interested in any comments on the following meat based diet, available as a pdf file from this site: CSIRO Total Well Being Diet




Written by:
The diet was tested using mainly protein from meat and dairy foods. We don't know whether vegetable protein works in the same way. Nevertheless, if vegetarians want to substitute the non-meat protein, we would suggest the following exchanges which provide approximately the same kilojoules:
200g meat/fish/chicken = 200g tofu or 260g cooked beans/lentils



Well, I'd like to know how they know it's the "Total Wellbeing Diet" if they haven't sufficiently researched the vegetarian alternative. confused


"I thought you are man, but
you are nice woman.

yay,

:R"

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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne

Total posts: 2830
Posted:
well spanner,

my suggestion would be to ask the CSIRO.


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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MrMoose


Member


Total posts: 3
Posted:Peoples reasons for being or not being vegetarian vary wildly. From a moral point of I think there's valid reasons for either.

Alot of people I guess are vegetarian because they don't like the idea of cute animals being killed or for some other animal "rights" reason. I guess it's plainly obvious that this view considers animal rights as being of greater moral significance.

I am deliberatly not a vegetarian because I believe there's an equally compelling moral argument to eat meat. From a conservation point of view meat production on a small scale using traditional techniques is responsible for 90% of our so called natural habitat and the various species that live there. Important ecosystems like, hay meadows, water meadows, moor land, heath, chalk down lands only exist because we eat meat. If we all became vegetarian then the countryside would be vast monoculture plains and incredibly undiverse.

Obviously sources of meat are important for that card to be played and industrially produced meat is hugely damaging from and environmental and conservation view point. The animal rights issue I believe is largely irrelevant as animals die whether we eat them or not. How they live their lives is far more important. free range and organic meat provides the animals with a natural and happy life, has enormous conservation benefits and the meat is usually far better quality and more tasty aswell. Bonus all round.


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darkpoet
BRONZE Member since May 2003

darkpoet

Irish
Location: Dallas.........ish

Total posts: 525
Posted:.....if we start getting a breed of people w\o incisors...then ill be a vegitarian...look at our teeth...were supposed to eat meat!
meat=good
and have you ever seen a healthy looking vegitarian??
no! theyre all anemic and a slate clammy gray colour
yeah....im all for equal treatment of animals...but personally...we need to fix the ecosystem we screwed up so royally first...then worry about how to treat our food...


Jesus saves sinners and redeems them for cash and
prizes

Co-Founder of Keepers of Light

Educate yourself about the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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_pOp_
BRONZE Member since Mar 2017

Playing OldSchool Poi
Location: amsterdam

Total posts: 593
Posted:Written by: darkpoet


.....if we start getting a breed of people w\o incisors...then ill be a vegitarian...look at our teeth...were supposed to eat meat!





oh man, we've been here before over and over (and over) again in this thread...



Written by: darkpoet


and have you ever seen a healthy looking vegitarian??





yes: the most beautiful people I know are all vegetarians and vegans too

try looking at somebody on a McDonalds diet, that's bad.



Written by: darkpoet


yeah....im all for equal treatment of animals...but personally...we need to fix the ecosystem we screwed up so royally first...then worry about how to treat our food...



listen to you: "how to treat our food".

of course you meant to say "how to treat our fellow sentient beings"?



ubbangel nuff said.



.


meditate eRic.

I'm not normally a religious man, but if you're up there, save me, Superman!

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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield

Total posts: 3252
Posted:Written by: 'pOp'




oh man, we've been here before over and over (and over) again in this thread...







Too right smile



Darkpoet and MrMoose, every point you raise has been, without exception, well covered in previous pages- if you're interested in knowing what vegetarians think about those points it would be well worth reading the previous parts of the thread.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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_pOp_
BRONZE Member since Mar 2017

Playing OldSchool Poi
Location: amsterdam

Total posts: 593
Posted:ooh ooh ooh, ehrm, because i gave such a half baked answer before and now I thought of some body famous:
Written by: darkpoet

and have you ever seen a healthy looking vegitarian??
no!



the answer would be: ALICIA SILVERSTONE!!!
and: Anna Paquin, Dustin Hoffman, Eddie Vedder, Erykah Badu, Jerry Seinfeld, Kim Basinger, Liv Tyler, Michael J.Fox, Natalie Portman, Pamela Anderson, Richard Gere, Shania Twain and Tea Leoni amongst many, many others...


meditate eRic.

I'm not normally a religious man, but if you're up there, save me, Superman!

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Faberg
GOLD Member since Aug 2003

veteran
Location: Dublin, Ireland

Total posts: 1459
Posted:Written by: darkpoet

and have you ever seen a healthy looking vegitarian??
no! theyre all anemic and a slate clammy gray colour




i almost took offence to that statement..... but darkpoet has clearly demonstrated his own ignorance by not even bothering to read the rest of the thread.....

eric, i was interested in your list of famous veggies and found this. anyone interested in having a quick look may note the number of olympic athletes listed, which proves that meat is not necessary for a tip top physical condition.


My mind not only wanders, it sometimes leaves completely smile

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ado-p
GOLD Member since May 2004

ado-p

Pirate Ninja
Location: Galway/Ireland

Total posts: 3882
Posted:And i think you look great Faberge, you dont look a day over 35 ubblol



*edited for fear of getting eyes clawed out. Faberge is not 35 and looks about 27*

EDITED_BY: ado-p (1095241419)


Love is the law.

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_pOp_
BRONZE Member since Mar 2017

Playing OldSchool Poi
Location: amsterdam

Total posts: 593
Posted:Written by: Faberg




i almost took offence to that statement..... but darkpoet has clearly demonstrated his own ignorance by not even bothering to read the rest of the thread.....







I KNOW!!!!!!

my first reaction to that remark was "me". (but I edited it out as well)

and as an adition to what ado-p said: I am 36, but nobody ever guesses my age to be over 27, usually 24/26.

so maybe we found a new thing here:



"vegetarians look younger (healthier) than carnivores..."



now try that one on for size



.


meditate eRic.

I'm not normally a religious man, but if you're up there, save me, Superman!

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Faberg
GOLD Member since Aug 2003

veteran
Location: Dublin, Ireland

Total posts: 1459
Posted:ubblol at aidan's edit

i might make a voodoo doll and stick pins in it but i would never scratch your eyes out hug


My mind not only wanders, it sometimes leaves completely smile

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ado-p
GOLD Member since May 2004

ado-p

Pirate Ninja
Location: Galway/Ireland

Total posts: 3882
Posted:Written by: Faberg

ubblol at aidan's edit

i might make a voodoo doll and stick pins in it but i would never scratch your eyes out hug



not true, i am young, look younger and extremely good looking biggrin


Love is the law.

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Faberg
GOLD Member since Aug 2003

veteran
Location: Dublin, Ireland

Total posts: 1459
Posted:eric, me too! i'm 34 and no-one ever thinks it.

though i've often wondered if that's coz i actually look younger, or if it's coz i hang out at parties with 20-something year olds swinging great big balls of fire around my head, while most of my mates are at home minding their kids ubblol ubblol ubblol


My mind not only wanders, it sometimes leaves completely smile

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Xopher (aka Mr. Clean)


enthusiast
Location: Hoboken, New Jersey, USA

Total posts: 456
Posted:pOp, while I agree with your general statement, Michael J. Fox doesn't actually look that healthy these days...for unrelated reasons, to be sure.

BTW, I'm 45 and am frequently mistaken for 44...seriously, people usually think early to mid 30s. In addition to having been a vegetarian since 1978, I stay the heck out of the sun.


"If you didn't like something the first time, the cud won't be any good either." --Elsie the Cow, Ruminations

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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne

Total posts: 2830
Posted:Well it's true that we have discussed this one ad- nausea, but everyone is entitled to an opinion.



pOp, perhaps you can explain the difference between famous vegetarians and healthy vegetarians???



It was listing to a discussion on this very subject at morning tea the other day, and it was interesting to hear that some people considered vegetarians to be a rather "grumpy" lot because they missed out on some vital "nutrient" or sumthing due to diet. I hadn't hear that before, so I was wondering if there was any truth to the story, or it was another urban myth?



wink wink wink





Oops, I should have read all the post, as I wasn't going to mention actors names.



I suppose another thing is that while rock stars aren't known for their healthy lifestyle, many look amazingly young. I'm told this is because they work at night, and see little sun.



smile

EDITED_BY: Stone (1095392917)


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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_pOp_
BRONZE Member since Mar 2017

Playing OldSchool Poi
Location: amsterdam

Total posts: 593
Posted:juggle no, I can't explain, because that wasn't my point.
the point I was trying to make is that people might be ignorant about how a vegetarian looks. you might know more (healthy looking) vegetarians than you would realize... and with naming famous vegetarians I was trying to prove that you can't see on the outside that somebody eats no meat.

cool about the sunlight: not seeing sunlight will make you grumpy: just talk to anybody who lives really north or really south with days in winter without sunlight. or come to think of it: don't we all get grumpier in winter and more cheerful in summer? we need the vitamins that sun light will give us.
but yeah, extensive exposure to unscreened sunlight (by lack of ozone layer) and sunburn will age your skin faster.

ubbidea oh, and not eating vegetables will make you depressed, just go watch "super size me"

wink and I look extremely young this year, since we had the worst summer in holland since 1955!!!


meditate eRic.

I'm not normally a religious man, but if you're up there, save me, Superman!

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nearly_all_gone
SILVER Member since Aug 2004

nearly_all_gone

Pooh-Bah
Location: Southampton

Total posts: 1626
Posted:Wooh! Go vegetarians!

I can get all my nutrition from fruit, vegetables and substitutes, and nothing has to die as a consequence of a matter of taste on my part. I have nothing against people eating meat, it's just not for me.

I don't like to think of people doing things for me that I wouldn't do myself, and I couldn't kill a cow or a pig unless I really had to. And I don't have to.

Besides, veggieburgers are nicer.

(See? I'm not grumpy. I'm karmically alligned)

Has anyone read the book "Power Within The Land"? I'm reading it now, and it's very good. It's about accepting the fact that you are part of the planet, not some incredible individual being who can exist without the earth's sustenance. We're all part of one big organism, and humans have done more harm to that organism than they have good.

Vegetarianism is one way of renewing a balance. I wonder if any meat-eaters out there have visited an abbatoir? It might change your opinions on the possibility of liking animals and justifying eating meat.

Not that I have. But then I didn't need to.

Forgive me. I drove 300 miles today. My brain is flash-fried.


What a wonderful miracle if only we could look through each other's eyes for an instant.
Thoreau

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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne

Total posts: 2830
Posted:Hi, nearly all gone, I have nothing against people eating plants wink

Just a few minor points on what u said: Written by:
I can get all my nutrition from fruit, vegetables and substitutes, and nothing has to die as a consequence of a matter of taste on my part. I have nothing against people eating meat, it's just not for me.



I cringe when I hear about substitutes. I prefer the real thing.

And plants do die for your taste. Its true plants arent cuddly, but they are alive before they are killed for your food. Genetically, theres not that much difference b/t a wheat plant and a chicken.


pOp, wots size got to do with depression???


eek


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield

Total posts: 3252
Posted:Written by: nearly_all_gone

Wooh! Go vegetarians!

I can get all my nutrition from fruit, vegetables and substitutes, and nothing has to die as a consequence of a matter of taste on my part.



I'm not sure that substitutes is a good word, it makes it sound that if you're not eating meat you're somehow lacking (nutrition or taste) whereas I think most vegetarians would agree that vegetarian food is way tastier (and healthier) than meat based food.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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Flame Boy
GOLD Member since Jul 2004

Flame Boy

veteran
Location: Out

Total posts: 1508
Posted:Im jumping in on this coversation cos I only just noticed it so obviously I've missed a fair bit so maybe this has already been said, however, I have no probs with vegys but I'd like to point out that just by giving up meat is not going to decrease the number of animals that are killed; in fact I doubt if even the whole vegy population has had much of an impact on the meat industry biggrin

AAARRRGGGHHH!!! My giant stick broke!!! In two!!! My stick broke in two!!! ubbcrying

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_pOp_
BRONZE Member since Mar 2017

Playing OldSchool Poi
Location: amsterdam

Total posts: 593
Posted:Written by: Stone


pOp, wots size got to do with depression???



eek





well, other men get depressed when they find out the size of my nuts...

redface eh?, oh no, sorry, different subject, ehrm... just ignore that.



ok: what I think I said was: "go watch the movie "Super Size Me" to see how a lack of a nutricious diet (read: lack of vegetables) can cause depression"

you misquoted me, I believe.



[ edit: ] Wow! what a strange post to be my 100th post.... ( ubbloco party!!!)

.

EDITED_BY: 'pOp' (1095764014)


meditate eRic.

I'm not normally a religious man, but if you're up there, save me, Superman!

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ado-p
GOLD Member since May 2004

ado-p

Pirate Ninja
Location: Galway/Ireland

Total posts: 3882
Posted:Written by: onewheeldave

I think most vegetarians would agree that vegetarian food is way tastier (and healthier) than meat based food.



Of course they would, but isnt that just a little biast and a little subjective even....


Love is the law.

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Faberg
GOLD Member since Aug 2003

veteran
Location: Dublin, Ireland

Total posts: 1459
Posted:i don't think so.

since i gave up on meat & eggs i've learned to experiment more with cooking. using different herbs & spices, lots of other ingredients that your average "meat, potatoe & 2 veg" eaters normally wouldn't dream of.

also, i try not to buy/eat processed foods, so when i make a meal it's from scratch, nothing out of jars or packets.

i have friends & family over for dinner regularly and always cook vegetarian. even the carnivores asked me for recipes from time to time tongue


My mind not only wanders, it sometimes leaves completely smile

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