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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:So I've now been a vegetarian for almost 3 years. I originally became a vegetarian because I realized I was a meat addict. There are also environmental concerns. Ethical concerns are way down on my list since I find it gets confusing for me to strongly support animal research for medical applications while opposing using animals for food. Especially because I'm not vegan.

But the final decision happened, not coincidentally, on the first day of Gross Anatomy dissection lab. ubblol

So after 3 years of almost total abstinence from meat (I'll eat meat if there is no other feasable option), I think I'm pretty much de-addicted. The idea of eating a large steak is just not at all appetizing to me.

BUUUUT, this vegetarian business is getting very inconvenient. It makes people stress over where to go for dinner, or what to cook for me. Furthermore, it significantly limits what I can order at a restaurant, and I can't stand it when the only vegetarian options on a menu feature zucchini and mushrooms (two of my least favorite foods).

So I'm starting to debate whether to de-classify myself as a vegetarian and just carry on with life eating very little meat. And by "very little" I mean less than one serving of meat a week. Since my initial reasons were for health, I don't see how this small amount of meat (which, when consumed, will preferably be organic) would change my risk factors. And such miniscule meat consumption wouldn't have much environmental impact. Besides, I have an unfortunate tendency towards anemia.

What do you think?


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:Nope. Think about it this way, if a cast iron pan lasts forever...

-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Xopher (aka Mr. Clean)


enthusiast
Location: Hoboken, New Jersey, USA

Total posts: 456
Posted:Ah, but it doesn't. I know for a fact that bits of iron fall off when you scrub the thing; it's just that the amount of iron that would come off, while large (so we believed) from a dietary standpoint, would be minuscule from a metallic-object standpoint. Also, if there's liquid in it, it definitely oxidizes in very little time. The idea was that oxidation would occur on a much smaller scale, but faster because of the heat, while cooking the eggs or whatever. Not that rust is a great source of dietary iron either, as far as I know.

And certain foods can and do eat into metal, to the nutritional detriment of the food. I have personally seen a tomato sauce eat through a cheap aluminum pot, leaving a scorched-looking hole and a mess in the refrigerator. Nobody wanted to eat the aluminum-laden sauce anyway.


"If you didn't like something the first time, the cud won't be any good either." --Elsie the Cow, Ruminations

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:Eggs, incidentally, are a horrible source of iron because they contain huge amounts of iron-bindng proteins. So although they do have iron, it's completely inaccessable to the gut.

But iron in its elemental form is not absorbed through the gut. Furthermore, iron oxide is not absorbed. What is absorbed is ferrous sulfate (as far as an iron salt goes), some organic salts, like ferrous gluconate (it always has to be ferrous, not ferric), and, of course, heme-bound iron (as is found in organic sources of iron).


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Xopher (aka Mr. Clean)


enthusiast
Location: Hoboken, New Jersey, USA

Total posts: 456
Posted:Any home-chemistry ways of making appropriate ferrous compounds out of metallic iron without poisoning yourself, blowing yourself up, or getting arrested?

"If you didn't like something the first time, the cud won't be any good either." --Elsie the Cow, Ruminations

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Xopher (aka Mr. Clean)


enthusiast
Location: Hoboken, New Jersey, USA

Total posts: 456
Posted:And btw thanks for debunking that common vegetarian's myth. Probably saved a couple dozen of my friends from living with an iron deficiency while thinking "it can't be that--I cook in a cast-iron pan!"

"If you didn't like something the first time, the cud won't be any good either." --Elsie the Cow, Ruminations

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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Total posts: 2830
Posted:Thanks Faberge. That's unfortunate about the Guinness, but apricots are cool. Though, they though about adding B group vitamins to some Aussie beers a few years ago, but decided against it because they thought people would go around saying beer is healthy. Which is a bit strange, as a glass of wine a day has been shown to be beneficial, health wise.

Dunno about tomato sauce eating through cheap aluminium pots, but lycopene found in tomatoes has been shown to reduce the risk of prostate and breast cancer.


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Total posts: 2830
Posted:I found these interesting Facts on meat consumption when I was checking out cigar boxes, from a coleman link.


eek eek eek


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Twirly


Twirly

Shoryuken!
Location: Hexham, Newcastle, England

Total posts: 233
Posted:Sorry to piss on bonfires, but its a double wammy on the Guiness front it seems. Its not vegetarian. Chances are, if you drink booze, you're not as vegetarian as you think. While you can get veggy/vegan wines, the ones you get in your local supermarket almost certainly aint. Check the below list for beers you can have. Spirits are pretty much sweet though - vegetarianism promotes heavy drinking, and I like that in a fad.

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/geraint.bevan/Vegetarian_beers.html


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Lyra
SILVER Member since Feb 2004

spiny norman
Location: Cincinnati,damn it, USA

Total posts: 314
Posted:humans do alot of things that arent "natural" to our bodies, etc...but alot of them are much more destructive than being a vegitarian, so, the unaturalness doesnt bug me much>peace

if you think that our kiss was all in the lips, come on you got it all wrong man, and if you think that our dance was all in the hips then, oh well, do the twist -The White Stripes

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_pOp_
BRONZE Member since Aug 2003

Playing OldSchool Poi
Location: amsterdam, Netherlands

Total posts: 593
Posted:wow! I can't believe i just read through the whole thread...
but then being vegetarian is a thing that gets me into heaps of discussions (without asking for it, I hold bing a veggie pretty much to myself), but having read the thread, there are a couple of things that I wanna say, but I'm afraid that this entry might be becoming a very long one:

concerning what is vegetarian and what not, a lot of people don't realize what food hold pieces of a corpse: cheese was mentioned before (the rennet to curdle the milk is often made of a calfs 4th stomach), i don't think i read 'gelatin' anywhere (all the stuff of a dead anymal that doesn't become "meat", like eyes, spine, etc.). also red-foodcoloring is 50% of the time the dried back part of a female cactus lice (cochinelle). also 80% of all emulsifiers (used in bread and cookies and loads of other foods) are lard or 'slaughter-fat' based. flour-enhancer is made out of pigs-hair, and the list goes on and on.

often when i go to a restaurant with friends I will eat nothing, a salad, or bring my own food. I order pizza without cheese and ask to see the labels from the frying fat at the chip-shop. but I don't see this as a restriction (someone said this before), I really don't know any better anymore. if I walk through a supermarket I wont see all the products with animal ingredients there, so i don't restrict myself by not buying it, it's the same as a non-smoker feeling restricted by not being able to buy cigarettes, that's just rediculous!!!!

on the point of the intake of iron and other minerals into your system, often the consumption of animal fats will decrease the intake of those. eg: "to fill up on calcium you should drink milk". ??? sure, there is calcium in milk, but the animal faats in it withhold you from absorbing it: just eat green vegetables, that will work better.

about missing nutrients when following a vegetarian diet I can say the following: when i was a vegan for 2 years I had the strange habbit of playing rugby with guys way bigger than me. but I was the only one of my team who could finish the game and still have a reserve of energy leftover. so i reckon i had no short-comings. just remember that eating vegetarian doesn't mean it's potatos, veggies, meat , but without the latter. then you start missing nutrition. it's another way of cooking, another way of putting ingredients together, and yes: it will improve your cooking skills (and realisation of taste).

about eating plants and thus killing them: I follow the simple rule of choosing the path of the least suffering. in an argument that will mean I'd rather walk away then start a fight, and with my eating habbits it means that I will weigh the suffering that went into the production of my food with the plesure I'll get out of eating it. and eating animals will NEVER weigh up to that! (excuse my english if I'm making mistakes, but I'm not a native speaker -> dutch).

on the arguments of humans in general being born herbivores or carnivores and the lack of vitamin B12 intake, I found the following quotes out of an article on treating candida ( http://chetday.com/candida4.html
):

It is a modern adaptation of man to eat cooked foods. This was made necessary when man began to consume animal-based foods. We have trouble with animal products, our digestive tracts are not designed to consume animal proteins other than mother's milk as babies. Our teeth are not fangs as are carnivores. Our colons are much larger and longer than carnivores just as are other herbivores. We do not have the necessary acid in our stomachs to digest meat. To live on these foods we must alter them to make them digestible. Meat and other animal products are unhealthful to eat raw. When we eat the flesh of an animal, we must usually cook it well done. Our stomach acid will not break it down or destroy the harmful bacteria as a carnivore's stomachs would do. Cooking it well done is better, if you are going to consume meat products. The cooking denatures the proteins making them easier to absorb and causes the bacteria and most other life forms to die helping to prevent disease.

Cooking of vegetable source foods in not usually necessary or good. We conceived the idea of disease being spread by raw foods over thousands of years. The notion is based on consumption of animal-based foods. Animal foods do carry disease. I bought a large set of 1913 internal medicine practice texts. In those texts they described various types of food poisoning. Food poisoning and how to treat it from fish, pork, meat, poultry, milk products etc. is described. No forms of food poisoning listed from plant sources. Those of us who become living foods vegetarians quickly learn that we just don't get food poisoning, unless we are unfortunate enough to eat in a location in which the restaurant or host prepares salads or raw veggies following the preparation of animal source foods on the same preparation area contaminating the vegetables.

This is not to say that a vegetable can't be rancid, poisonous or unhealthful to eat. It is just that with adequate use of the nose and a little common sense the risk was considered not worth mentioning in older medical texts before modern food processing could hide toxic food odors, tastes and appearances. In living using a diet that is closer to nature as is a raw, living vegan diet our natural instincts honed over billions of years of development come fully into play. We select wholesome, ripe, non diseased fruits and vegetables. We reject things that are rotting or look, smell or feel bad. Our eyes, noses and senses of touch guide us to healthful appearing food sources. It is not as easy to do this when we cook these foods and change their nature by cooking or using flavor covering spices. It is almost impossible to be guided by our instincts if we use animal products in our diet.

It is not a good idea to take into our bodies the organisms that are trying to digest the meats of other animals. Those bacteria with a little encouragement will also consume us. Clearly cancer viruses are such organisms. As all vegetables contain on and in them the necessary organisms designed by nature to return them to the soil on their deaths, so do animals. We are by design meant to consume vegetables and those organisms that come with them. In our digestive tract we, in the colon, have a large region designed for these organisms to live and help us with the digestion of the foods we eat. The forms of disease that kill plants are not often the same forms of diseases that kill animals. Plants have cancer viruses. Animals have cancer viruses. These viruses are generally very kingdom specific. It is very rare for a plant virus to attack an animal. We are specifically designed to live in harmony with them. It is much less likely that a plant virus will be designed to attack us. It is well accepted that viruses that are usually fairly species specific can make the jump between animal species. This is particularly true if the species are close relatives. AIDS is an example of this. It is a common virus of chimpanzees, and seems to cause them no harm. It made the jump to man, and is fatal to us.

*******************************************************************************

No herbivore or omnivore digestive system is designed to break down all the nutrients in the food. The consumption of raw not sterilized foods is important to create and maintain this second line of digestion in the colon. In the colon these residues of our foods go through a final sweep to remove nutrients and manufacture others for our use. How we do this is that there is supposed to be a healthful colony of bacteria in the cecum which breaks down the food still further and makes products useful to the body from these residues.

The effect on health is shown by explaining a common misconception about vegetarians. It was taught earlier in this century, that vegetarians could not be healthful because they needed meat to get all the necessary nutrients to survive. This has not proven true at all. However partial vegetarians or those who do not have healthful flora in their colons do need supplementation. Vegans, who consume no animal products, do not. The use of products containing antibiotics kills some essential flora in the colon. Without that flora surviving as a vegan is impossible. One essential nutrient is vitamin B-12. This is not a vegan vitamin, and our own bodies do not make it any more than termites make the enzymes necessary to digest cellulose. It was taught in our health universities and colleges that unless vegans took B-12, they would develop pernicious anemia and die. Then along came the 60s and 70s. Thousands became vegan, eating no animal products. I myself have not had any animal source foods for more than six years nor have I taken any B-12 supplements. If we did not have, nor could not make B-12, all of us should have developed deficiency symptoms. In fact the exact opposite happens. Those of us who are living foods vegans rarely have any nutritional deficiency symptoms. The key to this is that friendly bacteria in the colon make vitamin B-12. We absorb this B-12 into the body. We develop no deficiencies of this vitamin due to a symbiotic relationship with the bacteria in our colons. Perhaps we have more in common with termites in our digestive needs than we realize. We also almost never have candida infections, unless our doctors give us antibiotics and we fail to restore normal balance following this therapy.


well, I think that is enough for now, it is already the longest post yet and i need to get some sleep.
tomorrow I will start the day with a nice banana tofu shake.

pOpsteric.


.


meditate eRic.

I'm not normally a religious man, but if you're up there, save me, Superman!

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:pOp, if you read my previous posts here, you'll see my responses to such articles as what you just posted.



All I'm going to say now is that I truly hope that you'll trust scientific sources rather than what you just posted. I've seen people (patients) get into trouble by blindly reading stuff like this written by people with little or no scientific training.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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_pOp_
BRONZE Member since Aug 2003

Playing OldSchool Poi
Location: amsterdam, Netherlands

Total posts: 593
Posted:yes I did read your previous reactions, Lightning, although I must admit the ammount of text in the whole thread made me skip through some parts.
I have been a vegetarian for over a decade now, with occasional 'vegan years', and I wrote the post just to get some off my chest (especially about the other dead ingredients that some people don't know about).
the quotes and the blue part, I actually put in for argument-sake, exactly because people tend to read only one man's view on things. not to say that you are not right, but from a longer list of opinions, one is more liable to choose the right direction for himself, and that could be a combination of things.
eg: I never eat any milk-products, but I believe yoghurt to be very healthy, so I eat that. and on the note of choosing the way of the least suffering: I only eat 'organic' yoghurt, because yes: cows suffer tremendiously in the milk industry: try having boobs that weigh 10 times more than is natural, having your offspring murdered and die an early death after having to sit 24/7 with no room to move!!!!!

and now it's fruitshake time!!!

pOpsteric.




.


meditate eRic.

I'm not normally a religious man, but if you're up there, save me, Superman!

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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom

Total posts: 3252
Posted:Written by: Stone

I found these interesting Facts on meat consumption when I was checking out cigar boxes, from a coleman link.


eek eek eek

Cheers for that. I've known a lot of those stats for some time, especially the stuff which shows that converting veg crops to meat (i.e. feeding it to animals to raise them) involves a 90% loss in calories and nutritional value.

But this is new to me: -

'McDonald's clown, Ronald McDonald, tells children: Hamburgers grow in hamburger patches and love to be eaten.'

Is this true? I was truly shocked to read this. It's always been my opinion that if the West insists on continuing it's massive meat consumption, on the grounds that people choose to want it, that it should send it's children on day trips to a working slaughterhouse so that they can see the true facts and make an truly educated choice.

Whereas this is blatent lying to children frown frown frown


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom

Total posts: 3252
Posted:I thought your post was really interesting.

Mike, what you say is valid, but I'd just mention that one of the reasons some people are less intersted in scintific and medical studies than they could be, is because in the past they have been quoted in attempts by medical professionals to show that vegetartianism is bad for your health and that a vegan diet can't sustain human life (both of which we now to to be totally incorrect)

However, I agree with you that misinformation is dangerous; just saying that there's two side on this one.

Concerning the B-12 issue and what pOp says about it being produced by friendly flora, can either pOp point to some online info on that, or can Mike point to some online info that challenges/disproves it? Cos I'd be interested in learning more on it.

Finally, just remind everyone that B-12 is obtainable from many other non-animal sources, marmite being the most well known.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom

Total posts: 3252
Posted:I'd also like to say that this has been an excellent thread.

Seven pages long and everyones managed to keep it calm and non hostile, despite many differing viewpoints.
smile


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:Xopher, I just want to go on record as saying that if NUTELLA were supplemented with B-12, the world would truly be a perfect place. ubblol

-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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_pOp_
BRONZE Member since Aug 2003

Playing OldSchool Poi
Location: amsterdam, Netherlands

Total posts: 593
Posted:I did!
just before the blue part I put the URL of the full article: http://chetday.com/candida4.html
br>the part about milk and the absorption of calcium i got from a vegan flyer at a protest (I used to play in a left wing, political, straight-edge, hardcore-punk band, you see).
another hearsay I'd like to share is on the evolution of man...
someone said earlier in this thread that we got smart as a race BECAUSE we ate meat, but I'd like to tell you of a "documentary" I saw on National Geographic about 2 years agos (enough source naming, onewheeldave?). there they said that the evolutionary thing that made us "human" was due to overpopulation: we were being our nice little monkey selves, swinging trees and eating fruits, but all that goodness leads to overpopulation, and overpopulation has 3 outcomes:
1. you don't do anything and die
2. you find a new food to complement the shortage (meat eating monkeys?)
3. you migrate to a better place (BINGO!!! the start of the first human aspect)

so we became migraters.
to move easier and reach higher branches for more unavailable fruits we needed to do something, so we resorted to walking on our hind legs and scavaging for food (let me remind you: this is all hearsay) seeing other animals kill for food, it might have seemed like a good idea to do the same, but we neither had the speed to hunt, the means to kill, nor the teeth to tear the flesh off, so no can do... let's find another way, shall we?
now, walking on our hind legs had an advantage: because of walking upright, our body was catching less heat from the sun (just check the size of your shodow standing upright, compared to the one when on all fours on the hot part of the day), the energy used for cooling our system now could be used for something else: the nice, cool blood had an easier way of flowing to the brain, with more oxegin in it, this gave our brain the chance to grow, and the human race to be smarter (still hearsay). being smarter now, we found a way to be predators as well (well, in a scavangy type of way), we will make tools (meaning: use a sharp rock) to tear the flesh of an already killed animal, and take it to a save place to eat it. but then the was still the poblem of consumption: we couldn't digest it fully, but luckily some people from HoP were there on their yearly outing with the time machine. they gave a great show and left their pri-mates with the gift of fire, so now they could cook their food!!! and start the destruction of mother earth.

another thing i would like to add is that if we'd even meat consumption down to only 30% of what we do now, we wouldn't only have more water to spare, but more land to grow food for human consumption, instead of using that all for food for cattle consumption and hearding...
remember that eating meat on a daily basis was never comon practice in human history, it only became fashionable around the half of the 20th century, before that one could simply not affoard it. and still now, meat consumption is seen as a luxury. every red-blooded man wants a red-blooded steak on his plate to show that he can support his family well!!!

now let's go use the gift of fire for something better than cooking corpses: let's swing some around our bodies with chains or sticks!!!

pOp.


.


meditate eRic.

I'm not normally a religious man, but if you're up there, save me, Superman!

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_pOp_
BRONZE Member since Aug 2003

Playing OldSchool Poi
Location: amsterdam, Netherlands

Total posts: 593
Posted:ubblolhahaha,
I just came of the MSN with my good friend who's a veggie as well, and let her read this thread,
her reaction only half way through made me laugh out loud!!!
so now I just have to share that little bit of the conversation with all of you:

sheila says:
"now i don't call myself vegetarian..."
sheila says:
means u could still be served anything from chicken to fish to...
sheila says:
just silliness!
sheila says:
now to describe my eating habits there is no longer just one word to sum it up...
i have to list out everything i don't eat....takes forever
sheila says:
all because of people misusing the term

and then it continued into this:

sheila says:
[censored] carnivores the lot of them who think it's fashionable to be vegetarian
sheila says:
that's my opinion
sheila says:
mike is a knob!
sheila says:
he just thinks it's cool to tell his knobby friends he's veggie

so there it is: you are either a veggie or you're not
or should i say: you are either a veggie or a knob?

ubblol ubblol ubblol

eric pOpsteric.


meditate eRic.

I'm not normally a religious man, but if you're up there, save me, Superman!

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:So this is why I'm glad I switched off. Other night while I was on call, I went down to the cafeteria for dinner. Precious few vegetarian choices, except for cheese pizza dripping in fat or cream of spinach soup.

Or chicken-noodle soup, which I had, was quite delicious, and probably a lot better for me than the pizza or cream of green stuff soup.

Although I'm not a meat craver and I'll still choose a non-meat option over a meaty one when I can, I like having this flexibility.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Total posts: 2830
Posted:Nice try pOp, but I think u have your evolutionary facts confused. I have not got anything against vegetarians, but I do have something against manipulating the facts (hearsay). We didn't evolve from monkeys, and while I'm sure overpopulation, somewhere along the line, caused us to migrate, I doubt it had much to do with evolution.

The ability to eat and digest meat (carrion) provided us with the energy to develop a large brain, and subsequently the ability to travel long distances. By comparison herbivores need large gut to digest plants and generally have small brains. A excellent documentary on the subject is Walking with beasts. Scroll down to the bit has a on meat and brains. Hey smile


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom

Total posts: 3252
Posted:From the article in question-

"Meat contains a lot of important nutrients which might have allowed the development of large brains..."

It uses the word 'might' rather than 'did' ie it's an unproven conjecture.

Also: -

'Meat was probably only a small percentage of their diet, though...."

----------------

Lastly, is the diet of our ancestors relevant to the issue?

There are good reasons for primitive hunter gatherers to consume meat as they generally exist in low resource environments- meat is a condensed form of food. It's also doubtful that hunter gatherers could endanger their health by eating excessive amounts of meat.

Whereas modern us, in the west, have excess food and no need whatsoever to consume meat to survive or thrive.

In addition, our non-hunter gatherer lifestyles (ie sedentary) and generally excessive eating of meat set us up for a host of major health problems.

So I would be inclined to say that whatever our distant ancestors diet was is of no relevance to the issue of modern mans treatment of animals.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Total posts: 2830
Posted:OWD, the truth is always relevant to the issue. I knew about the inefficiencies of meat production, but it was only recently that I became aware of how destructive it was globally. Though, I have always believed that we need to consume much less if don't want to destroy our home. There is no argument there. However, I draw the line when peoples start fabricating stories to prove their points, as the good Dr Knox and others have appeared to have done.

I agree that we, in affluent societies, have a choice and we can take supplements to prevent us becoming sick if we choose a vegetarian diet. But that does not change the fact that eating meat was important in our development as a species. The fact that vegetarians need B-12 supplements indicated, to me, that something is missing in their diet.

Incidentally that link is not to an article, it's a transcript from "walking with beasts", which I consider to be a well researched documentary, that is well worth watching, although I found it a little slow compared to "walking with dinosaurs".


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:You know different cultures have relied on different diets. Tropical cultures tend to eat more vegetable matter and cultures from colder climates tend to get more nutrition from meat. Think Yanomamo (sp?) of the Amazon vs. the Inuit of the Arctic.

-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom

Total posts: 3252
Posted:Written by: Stone



I agree that we, in affluent societies, have a choice and we can take supplements to prevent us becoming sick if we choose a vegetarian diet. But that does not change the fact that eating meat was important in our development as a species. The fact that vegetarians need B-12 supplements indicated, to me, that something is missing in their diet.



There seems to be a little confusion between vegetarian and vegan here.

Vegetarians (don't eat meat) need no supplements whatsoever- plants, fruits, eggs etc supply all the nutrients needed.

Not only will someone eating a balanced vegetarian diet need no supplements, they will be considerably healthier than many non vegetarians who overdo the meat and are at greater risk from heart disease and many cancers.

Vegans (eat no animal produce whatsoever ie no milk, eggs etc) are the ones in need of B12.

And, given that we are in a modern society, even vegans don't have to take supplement pills- a marmite sandwich every now and again will give them the B12 they need.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Total posts: 2830
Posted:Um, OWD I don't want to start splitting hairs, but according to dictionary dot com "a supplement is something added to complete a thing, make up for a deficiency, or extend or strengthen the whole". I would consider marmite a supplement for a vegetarian diet, but that is a personal opinion.

Another area for concern would be Genetically Modified Organisms (GMO's). I would imagine that, on principal, most vegetarians would object to GM's, yet how can we escape GM's? Considering many of the soybeans produced today would be GM, as is a lot of cotton, some wheat and canola and who knows what else?


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom

Total posts: 3252
Posted:Written by: Stone

.... I would consider marmite a supplement for a vegetarian diet, but that is a personal opinion.




As I mentioned above, a vegetarian diet doesn't need supplementing- it's vegans (who eat no animal produce whatsoever) who are in danger of requiring supplemental b12.

Could you reflect on this because, as you previously mentioned-

Written by: Stone

.... I do have something against manipulating the facts (hearsay)...........



and you've now twice said that vegetarians need some form of b12 supplement, - it's just not true.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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Xopher (aka Mr. Clean)


enthusiast
Location: Hoboken, New Jersey, USA

Total posts: 456
Posted:Stone, why would you think that vegetarians would object to GMOs? I'm sure there's a lot of overlap between the groups, but unless animal genes are being added to vegetable crops, I see no necessary connection.

I've noticed that Europeans are much more up-in-arms about GMOs than Americans. The issue is hardly a blip on the radar screen here. I'm guessing Oz is more like Europe, where the fact that something is a GMO is much like saying it's crawling with live, plague-carrying insects as far as saleability goes.


"If you didn't like something the first time, the cud won't be any good either." --Elsie the Cow, Ruminations

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:I don't understand why it's so imperative that many vegetarians believe that we somehow aren't "evolved" to eat meat.

Regardless of whether we are or not, the fact is that we've altered our environment to the point where we aren't doing anything the way we were "evolved to."

If youh happen to be a hunter-gatherer, meat is a great source of complete nutrition that weight-for-weight is far superior to any other source. Fruits and veggies take a lot of work and have a lot of bulk for relatively less nutrition. That's why herbivores like cows do nothing except eat all day.

There also weren't six billion of us at the time. And animals were wild, instead of these walking meat and flab factories that we call "cows."

Fast-forward to today. Same genes of thriftiness (ergo, people naturally tend to choose the most caloric and tasty foods while trying to put forth the minimum effort necessary), but all you need to do to get a batch of cookies is hop in your car, drive to the store, and buy a box. You don't even have to mix the dough anymore! Meat, rather than being a rare treat, has become a mainstay of the American diet with many people not thinking of ANY meal as being a "real meal" unless a slab of meat is involved.

And that's why vegetarianism is a good idea today. But if you are de-addicted from meat, then a LOW-MEAT diet is still compatible with good health.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Xopher (aka Mr. Clean)


enthusiast
Location: Hoboken, New Jersey, USA

Total posts: 456
Posted:/me agrees with Lightning.

Back when there weren't a lot of humans, we were gatherers mostly, and hunters occasionally. But "gathering" wasn't a huge deal; the food sources were pretty plentiful, and we got the food we needed just walking around. I can't cite a source (memory ain't what it used to be) but I seem to remember reading that the average adult human back then worked the equivalent of 20 hours a week for survival. The rest was play, ritual, and mating time (not like there's no overlap among those, of course).

Sound like a nice life? Well, it was short, and people died of all sorts of bad [censored] that's trivial to get rid of today. But imagine if there were only say a million people total, worldwide. Supposing we somehow magically have no utter collapse of world everything (which would be the result if nearly six billion people died, for example), the average person would spend most of hir life just walking around, chatting with friends, playing...and when s/he got hungry, s/he could just reach up and pick a piece of fruit, which would always be in reach.

No, I don't think this could ever actually happen. My idea of heaven, I guess. Except that the fruit would also be low-glycemic...


"If you didn't like something the first time, the cud won't be any good either." --Elsie the Cow, Ruminations

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:Food sources plentiful? Ever tried to subsist by eating berries and fruits in the wild? They're few and far between, especially in mid-January.

-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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