Forums > Social Discussion > Thoughts on vegetarianism
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HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Posted:
So I've now been a vegetarian for almost 3 years. I originally became a vegetarian because I realized I was a meat addict. There are also environmental concerns. Ethical concerns are way down on my list since I find it gets confusing for me to strongly support animal research for medical applications while opposing using animals for food. Especially because I'm not vegan.
But the final decision happened, not coincidentally, on the first day of Gross Anatomy dissection lab.
So after 3 years of almost total abstinence from meat (I'll eat meat if there is no other feasable option), I think I'm pretty much de-addicted. The idea of eating a large steak is just not at all appetizing to me.
BUUUUT, this vegetarian business is getting very inconvenient. It makes people stress over where to go for dinner, or what to cook for me. Furthermore, it significantly limits what I can order at a restaurant, and I can't stand it when the only vegetarian options on a menu feature zucchini and mushrooms (two of my least favorite foods).
So I'm starting to debate whether to de-classify myself as a vegetarian and just carry on with life eating very little meat. And by "very little" I mean less than one serving of meat a week. Since my initial reasons were for health, I don't see how this small amount of meat (which, when consumed, will preferably be organic) would change my risk factors. And such miniscule meat consumption wouldn't have much environmental impact. Besides, I have an unfortunate tendency towards anemia.
What do you think?
So I've now been a vegetarian for almost 3 years. I originally became a vegetarian because I realized I was a meat addict. There are also environmental concerns. Ethical concerns are way down on my list since I find it gets confusing for me to strongly support animal research for medical applications while opposing using animals for food. Especially because I'm not vegan.
But the final decision happened, not coincidentally, on the first day of Gross Anatomy dissection lab.
So after 3 years of almost total abstinence from meat (I'll eat meat if there is no other feasable option), I think I'm pretty much de-addicted. The idea of eating a large steak is just not at all appetizing to me.
BUUUUT, this vegetarian business is getting very inconvenient. It makes people stress over where to go for dinner, or what to cook for me. Furthermore, it significantly limits what I can order at a restaurant, and I can't stand it when the only vegetarian options on a menu feature zucchini and mushrooms (two of my least favorite foods).
So I'm starting to debate whether to de-classify myself as a vegetarian and just carry on with life eating very little meat. And by "very little" I mean less than one serving of meat a week. Since my initial reasons were for health, I don't see how this small amount of meat (which, when consumed, will preferably be organic) would change my risk factors. And such miniscule meat consumption wouldn't have much environmental impact. Besides, I have an unfortunate tendency towards anemia.
What do you think?
-Mike
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella
A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura
GOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Posted:
I call the killing of an animal purely so it's flesh can be eaten, unnecessary.
The vast majority of humans do not need to eat flesh to survive and live fit, healthy lives. That is why I consider the pain, loss and suffering of meat animals to be unnecessary.
And the reason I ensure that i'm using the phrase 'pain, loss and suffering' is to cover some of the examples you've come up with, such as that of killing animals painlessly.
Now, given that you agree with me that it is 'wrong to cause unnecessary suffering, pain and loss to sentient beings'
how do you reconcile that with your belief that it is right to kill and eat animals?
Written by: Stone
OWD, I do consider it wrong to cause unnecessary suffering, pain and loss to sentient beings. However it depends on what u call unnecessary pain, and that’s where we differ.
I call the killing of an animal purely so it's flesh can be eaten, unnecessary.
The vast majority of humans do not need to eat flesh to survive and live fit, healthy lives. That is why I consider the pain, loss and suffering of meat animals to be unnecessary.
And the reason I ensure that i'm using the phrase 'pain, loss and suffering' is to cover some of the examples you've come up with, such as that of killing animals painlessly.
Now, given that you agree with me that it is 'wrong to cause unnecessary suffering, pain and loss to sentient beings'
how do you reconcile that with your belief that it is right to kill and eat animals?
"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."
--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32
Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!
BRONZE Member
Playing OldSchool Poi
593 posts
Location: amsterdam, Netherlands
Playing OldSchool Poi
593 posts
Location: amsterdam, Netherlands
Posted:
and then take the example of the old lady who hasn't been used to plastic money yet, she spends a good time looking through her purse to find the credit card, then tries to figure out what her PIN code is, and takes another long time to punch the right buttons, and on top of it start complaining about being underdealt her saving coupons...
did you get the point of this story?
no? good, at least I made as much sense as you did in your post.
oh, and a vegetarian would not set foot in a stake house because he would know the choices of getting a decent meal would be zero.
Written by: Stone
Say a bus load of tourists get off a bus at a fast food shop and the first person at the counter take 15-20 minutes to order because they insist on asking the cook about the meat content of every product, while 30 hungry tourists mutter inexplicable things about vegetarians. Same in restaurants, a vegetarian goes into a Texas steak house and starts complaining because people are eating meat.
and then take the example of the old lady who hasn't been used to plastic money yet, she spends a good time looking through her purse to find the credit card, then tries to figure out what her PIN code is, and takes another long time to punch the right buttons, and on top of it start complaining about being underdealt her saving coupons...
did you get the point of this story?
no? good, at least I made as much sense as you did in your post.
oh, and a vegetarian would not set foot in a stake house because he would know the choices of getting a decent meal would be zero.
eRic.
I'm not normally a religious man, but if you're up there, save me, Superman!
GOLD Member
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Posted:
Well, then of course unnecessary pain and suffering is bad.
If we're not worrying about what "unnecessary" means, then where, exactly, are we going?
And why are we in this handbasket?
Well, then of course unnecessary pain and suffering is bad.
If we're not worrying about what "unnecessary" means, then where, exactly, are we going?
And why are we in this handbasket?
-Mike
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella
A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura
GOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Posted:
I'm not asking if unnecessary pain and suffering is bad.
I'm asking if causing unnecessay pain, loss and suffering to sentient beings is wrong
Like I said before, I can't go further unless you reply 'yes' or 'no' to that question.
I'm not asking if unnecessary pain and suffering is bad.
I'm asking if causing unnecessay pain, loss and suffering to sentient beings is wrong
Like I said before, I can't go further unless you reply 'yes' or 'no' to that question.
"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."
--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32
Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!
GOLD Member
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Posted:
Ok, then if unnecessary pain=bad, then causing it=bad=wrong.
Does this handbasket come with bucket seats?
Ok, then if unnecessary pain=bad, then causing it=bad=wrong.
Does this handbasket come with bucket seats?
-Mike
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella
A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura
GOLD Member
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posted:
Spanner wanting to know what's in your food isn't asking for preferential treatment. But being arrogant and a pain in the bum is. Unfortunately, people remember bad experiences and forget the good ones. Why don’t u take along gas chromatograph when u go shopping if you feel that strongly about it. There are times and places for most things, making a stand for vegetarianism in a fish shop, is not one of them.
Hadn’t heard about the ham.
Do I feel threatened by vegetarianism? No, I hadn’t even considered it. I do however, feel threatened when people lie and manipulate the facts to suite their own purpose. So to re-cap my objections:
Hi pOp, speaking for all vegetarians now are we? Unfortunately thems real life experiences, mate.
OWD, I will say it again. OWD I do consider it wrong to cause unnecessary suffering, pain and loss to sentient beings
Spanner wanting to know what's in your food isn't asking for preferential treatment. But being arrogant and a pain in the bum is. Unfortunately, people remember bad experiences and forget the good ones. Why don’t u take along gas chromatograph when u go shopping if you feel that strongly about it. There are times and places for most things, making a stand for vegetarianism in a fish shop, is not one of them.
Hadn’t heard about the ham.
Do I feel threatened by vegetarianism? No, I hadn’t even considered it. I do however, feel threatened when people lie and manipulate the facts to suite their own purpose. So to re-cap my objections:
Written by:
Stone said earlier: I also disagree with the way the case for vegetarianism has been argued. Personally, I take umbrage when people use religious, emotive and unscientific arguments to justify their cause. I think these types of arguments also undermine the credibility of vegetarianism, and do much to detract from what is obviously a good and healthy way to live.
So for example, don't:
Tell me vegetarianism is a Buddhism philosophy, when that is not strictly true (religious).
Tell me I'm a really a herbivore, when we (as a species) are obviously omnivores (scientific/evolutionary).
Make me feel guilty by humanising things, and telling me I'm a cannibal and I'm eating corpses (emotive)
Hi pOp, speaking for all vegetarians now are we? Unfortunately thems real life experiences, mate.
OWD, I will say it again. OWD I do consider it wrong to cause unnecessary suffering, pain and loss to sentient beings
If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh
GOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Posted:
If so, then how do you reconcile that with your belief that it is OK to kill and eat anmials?
Because animals are sentient beings, and killing them to eat their flesh is causing them loss (of life) and generally pain/suffering.
I know they can be killed painlessly, but, being realistic, many aren't.
But, pain aside- loss is definitly being caused.
Given that you believe it's wrong to cause unnecessary pain, loss and suffering to sentient beings, then how can you consider it right to take an animals life in order to eat it's flesh, when eating flesh is not necessary for you to live a healthy life.
Written by: StoneCheers Stone.
OWD, I will say it again. OWD I do consider it wrong to cause unnecessary suffering, pain and loss to sentient beings
If so, then how do you reconcile that with your belief that it is OK to kill and eat anmials?
Because animals are sentient beings, and killing them to eat their flesh is causing them loss (of life) and generally pain/suffering.
I know they can be killed painlessly, but, being realistic, many aren't.
But, pain aside- loss is definitly being caused.
Given that you believe it's wrong to cause unnecessary pain, loss and suffering to sentient beings, then how can you consider it right to take an animals life in order to eat it's flesh, when eating flesh is not necessary for you to live a healthy life.
"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."
--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32
Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!
BRONZE Member
Playing OldSchool Poi
593 posts
Location: amsterdam, Netherlands
Playing OldSchool Poi
593 posts
Location: amsterdam, Netherlands
Posted:
ehrm, speaking for all vegetarians? no, I thought you were the one generalizing...
I think it's pretty sad that you think people remember bad experiences rather that the good ones, and I feel sorry for you if you do (and I don't say this to mock you, seriously). I recently split up with my girlfriend, because being together didn't do either of us any good anymore. now, only 3 weeks down the road, I can't even remember the bad times we had. only the good. and this line of thought happens with all my experiences in live: I really live for the good memories and put the bad away because the are the past.
no wonder that you take such a hard stance against people here, you must be filled with bad memories about everything and a very bitter person as such.
seriously, forget about it, it's much better to remember the good than the bad.
Written by: Stone
Unfortunately, people remember bad experiences and forget the good ones.
Written by: Stone
Hi pOp, speaking for all vegetarians now are we?
ehrm, speaking for all vegetarians? no, I thought you were the one generalizing...
I think it's pretty sad that you think people remember bad experiences rather that the good ones, and I feel sorry for you if you do (and I don't say this to mock you, seriously). I recently split up with my girlfriend, because being together didn't do either of us any good anymore. now, only 3 weeks down the road, I can't even remember the bad times we had. only the good. and this line of thought happens with all my experiences in live: I really live for the good memories and put the bad away because the are the past.
no wonder that you take such a hard stance against people here, you must be filled with bad memories about everything and a very bitter person as such.
seriously, forget about it, it's much better to remember the good than the bad.
eRic.
I'm not normally a religious man, but if you're up there, save me, Superman!
journeyman
53 posts
Location: Southampton, uk
53 posts
Location: Southampton, uk
Posted:
When i say i`m a vegetarian I feel like I have to explain my reasons,
because well...
At 14 I had so many daily dietary problems
because I unknowingly was allergic to most red meats,
so out goes the meat I felt loads better.
It was my choice to give up meat,
because I couldn`t function normally if I ate meat.
Was my choice a right or wrong one?
I still can`t decide that after 20 years.
Sometimes I have meat because I miss it,
it still has the same affect on me is it worth it?
When i say i`m a vegetarian I feel like I have to explain my reasons,
because well...
At 14 I had so many daily dietary problems
because I unknowingly was allergic to most red meats,
so out goes the meat I felt loads better.
It was my choice to give up meat,
because I couldn`t function normally if I ate meat.
Was my choice a right or wrong one?
I still can`t decide that after 20 years.
Sometimes I have meat because I miss it,
it still has the same affect on me is it worth it?
Drinking wine, eating cheese, catching some rays, yunno.
GOLD Member
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Posted:
I don't. Because I'm not sure what constitutes "necessary." Humanity did just fine before medicine came along, although people didn't live very long. Life was brutal, nasty, and short. But medicine isn't "necessary." So on one extreme, I could argue that even animal research isn't necessary.
As I've said before, my way of dealing with this is that I consume very little meat. I gave up vegetarianism because it was a pain in the arse, not because I want to eat meat. Since I "officially" dropped vegetarianism, I've had fish on three occasions and one bite of someone's Tandoori Chicken (which was nummy
). That's been two months now. I'm still vegetarian over 95% of the time.
Frankly, I'd be perfectly happy if people stopped eating meat altogether. My solution is that I will not order meat in a restaurant, I will not buy it in a store, and I will not keep it in my house. However, if I am a guest of someone else and they've already bought the meat, I'm not doing anyone any favors by refusing to eat it. Similarly, in other countries where animals are treated differently, or where vegetarianism is simply not culturally endemic, I prefer to go with the flow rather than be so arrogant as to impose my cultural values on them.
Written by:
how do you reconcile that with your belief that it is right to kill and eat animals?
I don't. Because I'm not sure what constitutes "necessary." Humanity did just fine before medicine came along, although people didn't live very long. Life was brutal, nasty, and short. But medicine isn't "necessary." So on one extreme, I could argue that even animal research isn't necessary.
As I've said before, my way of dealing with this is that I consume very little meat. I gave up vegetarianism because it was a pain in the arse, not because I want to eat meat. Since I "officially" dropped vegetarianism, I've had fish on three occasions and one bite of someone's Tandoori Chicken (which was nummy
). That's been two months now. I'm still vegetarian over 95% of the time. Frankly, I'd be perfectly happy if people stopped eating meat altogether. My solution is that I will not order meat in a restaurant, I will not buy it in a store, and I will not keep it in my house. However, if I am a guest of someone else and they've already bought the meat, I'm not doing anyone any favors by refusing to eat it. Similarly, in other countries where animals are treated differently, or where vegetarianism is simply not culturally endemic, I prefer to go with the flow rather than be so arrogant as to impose my cultural values on them.
-Mike
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella
A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura
BRONZE Member
Playing OldSchool Poi
593 posts
Location: amsterdam, Netherlands
Playing OldSchool Poi
593 posts
Location: amsterdam, Netherlands
Posted:
???? how would you impose that on them?
any person from any culture anywhere will ask questions about food in a restaurant...
if you are in paris confronted with a french menu, you want to know what a "croque monsieur" is before ordering it (it's a tosti).
that is not imposing arrogant values on somebody, that's just how it works.
Written by: There is no "e" in "Lightning"
Similarly, in other countries where animals are treated differently, or where vegetarianism is simply not culturally endemic, I prefer to go with the flow rather than be so arrogant as to impose my cultural values on them.
???? how would you impose that on them?
any person from any culture anywhere will ask questions about food in a restaurant...
if you are in paris confronted with a french menu, you want to know what a "croque monsieur" is before ordering it (it's a tosti).
that is not imposing arrogant values on somebody, that's just how it works.
eRic.
I'm not normally a religious man, but if you're up there, save me, Superman!
GOLD Member
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Posted:
When I go to visit another country, I am there to experience the culture...and part of that is the cuisine.
When I go to visit another country, I am there to experience the culture...and part of that is the cuisine.
-Mike
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella
A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura
GOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Posted:
What if you visited a country whose culture was racist, or homophobic; would you be concerned about offending your hosts then?
What if you visited a country whose culture was racist, or homophobic; would you be concerned about offending your hosts then?
"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."
--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32
Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!
BRONZE Member
Playing OldSchool Poi
593 posts
Location: amsterdam, Netherlands
Playing OldSchool Poi
593 posts
Location: amsterdam, Netherlands
Posted:
yes, me too. but even you would ask what something is that you don't know the name of..
eric.
Written by: There is no "e" in "Lightning"
When I go to visit another country, I am there to experience the culture...and part of that is the cuisine.
yes, me too. but even you would ask what something is that you don't know the name of..
eric.
eRic.
I'm not normally a religious man, but if you're up there, save me, Superman!
GOLD Member
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Posted:
Right. But chances are I'll eat it. I've even eaten escargots once (and never again). When traveling, I'll try almost anything once... Including roast caterpillar. (Witchetty grub I tried when I was in Oz)
Right. But chances are I'll eat it. I've even eaten escargots once (and never again). When traveling, I'll try almost anything once... Including roast caterpillar. (Witchetty grub I tried when I was in Oz)
-Mike
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella
A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura
enthusiast
456 posts
Location: Hoboken, New Jersey, USA
456 posts
Location: Hoboken, New Jersey, USA
Posted:
I understand that in India, it's usually sufficient to say "In my caste we don't eat the head of the chicken" or whatever the repellent delicacy is. In the Gaeltocht of Ireland (again, I'm told) the phrase ta geas a me (roughly "I'm not allowed to do that") will deflect attempts to get one to eat things inappropriate to one's diet.
Unlike Lightning, I'm disinclined to abandon my dietary restrictions when visiting another culture. (If I were doing anthropological fieldwork, that would be another story; I'd eat whatever they ate. One reason I'm not a cultural anthropologist, actually.) But there are probably culturally appropriate ways of letting your hosts know what you do and do not eat without offending them.
I understand that in India, it's usually sufficient to say "In my caste we don't eat the head of the chicken" or whatever the repellent delicacy is. In the Gaeltocht of Ireland (again, I'm told) the phrase ta geas a me (roughly "I'm not allowed to do that") will deflect attempts to get one to eat things inappropriate to one's diet.
Unlike Lightning, I'm disinclined to abandon my dietary restrictions when visiting another culture. (If I were doing anthropological fieldwork, that would be another story; I'd eat whatever they ate. One reason I'm not a cultural anthropologist, actually.) But there are probably culturally appropriate ways of letting your hosts know what you do and do not eat without offending them.
"If you didn't like something the first time, the cud won't be any good either." --Elsie the Cow, Ruminations
GOLD Member
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posted:
I try to answer some of your questions OWD, even if I don’t think we will agree.
OWD, I don’t consider the killing animals for food unnecessary, though perhaps a luxury. I think most people would consider a portion of meat to be an important part of a balanced diet. While you say it’s easy to become a vegetarian, that doesn’t explain the fact that, as pointed out previously, many people especially young women become anaemic on a veg diet. Historically, people forced to live on a staple of vegies suffered from malnutrition, and I have always thought that eating a small amount of meat was a part of the natural process (food chain if you like).
Ok, I’ll have a go at the pain issue. It’s a tricky one because I run the risk of people thinking I’ even more uncaring than they already do, when I’m just being realistic and pragmatic about the way humankind herds animals. I think this sentence thing is a bit misleading because it implies that all animals experience pain in the same way. Now, I’m getting into the area of speculation because I don’t know that much about animal physiology. But I’m sure there are differences in the nervous systems and pain thresholds between different species of animals. I don’t believe for a minute that a fish feels pain in the same way as a human. I don’t see how a fish could experience loss, as they spawn rather than mate. I think cows and many other warm blooded animals experience loss at weaning, but that’s a process we all go through. I have worked with cows, and I’m sure their feelings of pain are different to humans. From my observations, any pain is soon forgotten in the same way that young males forget about the pain of circumcision, And, as far as loss goes, we all die eventually.
IMO, many of the arguments against eating meat are based on humanising animals, and I think that’s naïve. I can understand how people living in big cities have lost contact with animals, except their pets (slaves) and are prone to humanising all animals. Another way at looking at the humanising animals is to see how people react with wild animals. I use to live near a National Park, and tourists would inevitably try to pat the kangaroos or try to pick up the cute cuddly koala bear. Then, shock horror, they would wonder what happened when they get the [censored] kicked out of them. Too much Disney, and they didn’t realise they were dealing with a “wild” animal. There were lulled into a false sense of security because they were thinking of Bambi instead of a “wild” ferocious animal, as you are with domesticated animals.
pOp, re the example of the old lady with plastic card. Yes, I’ve seen this, and yes unfortunately ageism is common. However, she is not standing on a soap box, perhaps that’s the difference.
pOp, it might be sad that people remember bad experiences rather that the good ones, but that’s reality. Perhaps I’m wrong, but I doubt many would argue against the saying “that people generally remember the bad over the good”. Note - that is a generalisation. I’m not saying I only remember the bad. I’m saying that as a society, we tend to remember the bad things people do rather than the good they do.
I know I have taken an unpopular view, but I’m not gong to apologise for disagreeing with you. If you think I’ve been hard, then look back at all the things I’ve let slide. I mean you even dug up a two year old thread from another forum and posted it here; and the information was inaccurate. Do you call everyone that disagrees with you, bitter? And if you look back through the pages you will see many examples of sensationalism and inaccuracies used by vegetarians to gain the high moral ground.
I try to answer some of your questions OWD, even if I don’t think we will agree.
Written by:
So, then how do you reconcile that with your belief that it is OK to kill and eat animals? Because animals are sentient beings, and killing them to eat their flesh is causing them loss (of life) and generally pain/suffering. I know they can be killed painlessly, but, being realistic, many aren't. But, pain aside- loss is definitly being caused. Given that you believe it's wrong to cause unnecessary pain, loss and suffering to sentient beings, then how can you consider it right to take an animals life in order to eat it's flesh, when eating flesh is not necessary for you to live a healthy life.
OWD, I don’t consider the killing animals for food unnecessary, though perhaps a luxury. I think most people would consider a portion of meat to be an important part of a balanced diet. While you say it’s easy to become a vegetarian, that doesn’t explain the fact that, as pointed out previously, many people especially young women become anaemic on a veg diet. Historically, people forced to live on a staple of vegies suffered from malnutrition, and I have always thought that eating a small amount of meat was a part of the natural process (food chain if you like).
Ok, I’ll have a go at the pain issue. It’s a tricky one because I run the risk of people thinking I’ even more uncaring than they already do, when I’m just being realistic and pragmatic about the way humankind herds animals. I think this sentence thing is a bit misleading because it implies that all animals experience pain in the same way. Now, I’m getting into the area of speculation because I don’t know that much about animal physiology. But I’m sure there are differences in the nervous systems and pain thresholds between different species of animals. I don’t believe for a minute that a fish feels pain in the same way as a human. I don’t see how a fish could experience loss, as they spawn rather than mate. I think cows and many other warm blooded animals experience loss at weaning, but that’s a process we all go through. I have worked with cows, and I’m sure their feelings of pain are different to humans. From my observations, any pain is soon forgotten in the same way that young males forget about the pain of circumcision, And, as far as loss goes, we all die eventually.
IMO, many of the arguments against eating meat are based on humanising animals, and I think that’s naïve. I can understand how people living in big cities have lost contact with animals, except their pets (slaves) and are prone to humanising all animals. Another way at looking at the humanising animals is to see how people react with wild animals. I use to live near a National Park, and tourists would inevitably try to pat the kangaroos or try to pick up the cute cuddly koala bear. Then, shock horror, they would wonder what happened when they get the [censored] kicked out of them. Too much Disney, and they didn’t realise they were dealing with a “wild” animal. There were lulled into a false sense of security because they were thinking of Bambi instead of a “wild” ferocious animal, as you are with domesticated animals.
pOp, re the example of the old lady with plastic card. Yes, I’ve seen this, and yes unfortunately ageism is common. However, she is not standing on a soap box, perhaps that’s the difference.
pOp, it might be sad that people remember bad experiences rather that the good ones, but that’s reality. Perhaps I’m wrong, but I doubt many would argue against the saying “that people generally remember the bad over the good”. Note - that is a generalisation. I’m not saying I only remember the bad. I’m saying that as a society, we tend to remember the bad things people do rather than the good they do.
I know I have taken an unpopular view, but I’m not gong to apologise for disagreeing with you. If you think I’ve been hard, then look back at all the things I’ve let slide. I mean you even dug up a two year old thread from another forum and posted it here; and the information was inaccurate. Do you call everyone that disagrees with you, bitter? And if you look back through the pages you will see many examples of sensationalism and inaccuracies used by vegetarians to gain the high moral ground.
If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh
GOLD Member
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Posted:
Aren't luxuries by definition unnecessary?
I'm not the devil, just his advocate.
Aren't luxuries by definition unnecessary?
I'm not the devil, just his advocate.
-Mike
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella
A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura
GOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Posted:
If you really believe that a vegetarian diet is nutritionally insufficient for health, then I can understand why you're into meat.
But it's been established that, for the vast majority of people, a vegetarian diet is not only sufficent for health, but considerably safer (in terms of cancer risk, heart disease etc) than a diet with a high proportion of meat.
Maybe you'd like to post links to some of the historical malnutrition issues, then I can address them.
Certainly it's possible to suffer malnutrition on a bad vegetarian diet, just as it is on a bad meat-containing diet.
Given that meat is generally more expensive/harder to obtain in times of famine, historically many cultures suffering malnutrition will be on a vegetarian diet- but their ill health is due to famine, rather than a cause of being vegetarian. If they were eating a good vegetarian diet, there'd be no problem.
EDITED_BY: onewheeldave (1090087208)
Written by: Stone
OWD, I don’t consider the killing animals for food unnecessary, though perhaps a luxury. I think most people would consider a portion of meat to be an important part of a balanced diet. While you say it’s easy to become a vegetarian, that doesn’t explain the fact that, as pointed out previously, many people especially young women become anaemic on a veg diet. Historically, people forced to live on a staple of vegies suffered from malnutrition, and I have always thought that eating a small amount of meat was a part of the natural process (food chain if you like).
If you really believe that a vegetarian diet is nutritionally insufficient for health, then I can understand why you're into meat.
But it's been established that, for the vast majority of people, a vegetarian diet is not only sufficent for health, but considerably safer (in terms of cancer risk, heart disease etc) than a diet with a high proportion of meat.
Maybe you'd like to post links to some of the historical malnutrition issues, then I can address them.
Certainly it's possible to suffer malnutrition on a bad vegetarian diet, just as it is on a bad meat-containing diet.
Given that meat is generally more expensive/harder to obtain in times of famine, historically many cultures suffering malnutrition will be on a vegetarian diet- but their ill health is due to famine, rather than a cause of being vegetarian. If they were eating a good vegetarian diet, there'd be no problem.
EDITED_BY: onewheeldave (1090087208)
"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."
--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32
Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!
GOLD Member
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posted:
Yes, the devils advocate has a point . I should have been more specific. I think, I meant that killing of animals for meat could be considered a luxury. In that we consume much more than we actually need.
now I'm confused
Just clarifying a few issues for OWD:
I said most people think a portion of meat is important for a balanced diet. You only have to look at the size of meat section at the Supermarket to see that.
Been established by whom??? You probably need to qualify that statement with a source. I would be interested to know when the research was undertaken, the quantities of meat involved, the criteria for the control group, and if the research was short term or long term. Perhaps the question to ask is a diet with a high proportion of meat healthier than a diet with a small/balanced portion, compared to a vegetarian diet?
It was a general comment and easy to check, like pottage and dhal being poor mans meat.
Yes, but I would suspect that the risk of malnutrition is higher if meat is absent from the diet. Like you need to eat a vast quantity of spinach compared to meat, to obtain a similar amount of iron. What did the proxy poster say - people who eat meat are lazy, which is probably true. And having meat in the diet makes it easy to get the necessary protein and nutrients in a small convenient package.
Historically, I suspect people did not know the criteria for a good vegetarian diet. Also the vast array of vegetarian products available today, were probably not available then, and meat was an important source of protein and other nutrients. Even today the world is protein poor.
Yes, the devils advocate has a point . I should have been more specific. I think, I meant that killing of animals for meat could be considered a luxury. In that we consume much more than we actually need.
now I'm confused Just clarifying a few issues for OWD:
Written by:
If you really believe that a vegetarian diet is nutritionally insufficient for health, then I can understand why you're into meat.
I said most people think a portion of meat is important for a balanced diet. You only have to look at the size of meat section at the Supermarket to see that.
Written by:
But it's been established that, for the vast majority of people, a vegetarian diet is not only sufficient for health, but considerably safer (in terms of cancer risk, heart disease etc) than a diet with a high proportion of meat.
Been established by whom??? You probably need to qualify that statement with a source. I would be interested to know when the research was undertaken, the quantities of meat involved, the criteria for the control group, and if the research was short term or long term. Perhaps the question to ask is a diet with a high proportion of meat healthier than a diet with a small/balanced portion, compared to a vegetarian diet?
Written by:
Maybe you'd like to post links to some of the historical malnutrition issues, then I can address them.
It was a general comment and easy to check, like pottage and dhal being poor mans meat.
Written by:
Certainly it's possible to suffer malnutrition on a bad vegetarian diet, just as it is on a bad meat-containing diet.
Yes, but I would suspect that the risk of malnutrition is higher if meat is absent from the diet. Like you need to eat a vast quantity of spinach compared to meat, to obtain a similar amount of iron. What did the proxy poster say - people who eat meat are lazy, which is probably true. And having meat in the diet makes it easy to get the necessary protein and nutrients in a small convenient package.
Written by:
Given that meat is generally more expensive/harder to obtain in times of famine, historically many cultures suffering malnutrition will be on a vegetarian diet- but their ill health is due to famine, rather than a cause of being vegetarian. If they were eating a good vegetarian diet, there'd be no problem.
Historically, I suspect people did not know the criteria for a good vegetarian diet. Also the vast array of vegetarian products available today, were probably not available then, and meat was an important source of protein and other nutrients. Even today the world is protein poor.
If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh
GOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Posted:
OK, I think I've had enough for now
Time to take the advice I gave to someone else several pages back and stick to discussing this with people who are genuinely interested in considering switching to vegetarianism.
OK, I think I've had enough for now
Time to take the advice I gave to someone else several pages back and stick to discussing this with people who are genuinely interested in considering switching to vegetarianism.
"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."
--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32
Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!
GOLD Member
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posted:
I didn’t know the aim of this thread was to convert people to vegetarianism.
Does that mean that you are considering opening another thread where there is no discussion. Like the one limited to talking about the good points of religion with no peer group review?
Written by:
OWD said: Time to take the advice I gave to someone else several pages back and stick to discussing this with people who are genuinely interested in considering switching to vegetarianism.
I didn’t know the aim of this thread was to convert people to vegetarianism.
Does that mean that you are considering opening another thread where there is no discussion. Like the one limited to talking about the good points of religion with no peer group review?
If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh
GOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Posted:
Not at all, discussion is good .
But after long discussion with some people I reach the conclusion that no ones moving forward or benefiting; that nothing either one says is going to bring about anything constructive.
Posting intelligent, well thought out stuff takes time and energy- I feel that we're very much going in circles and that I'm wasting my time.
Not at all, discussion is good .
But after long discussion with some people I reach the conclusion that no ones moving forward or benefiting; that nothing either one says is going to bring about anything constructive.
Posting intelligent, well thought out stuff takes time and energy- I feel that we're very much going in circles and that I'm wasting my time.
"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."
--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32
Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!
GOLD Member
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posted:
Suggest having a cup of chai to revive the spirits.
CU
Suggest having a cup of chai to revive the spirits.
CU
If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh
GOLD Member
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Posted:
OWD, I started the thread. Remember? And I started it with a statement that I was switching away from vegetarianism.
I think I like this discussion open.
OWD, I started the thread. Remember? And I started it with a statement that I was switching away from vegetarianism.
I think I like this discussion open.
-Mike
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella
A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura
GOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Posted:
Are you implying that I want it closed?
Because I've not said anything to suggest that I do.
What I said was that-
i.e. everyone else is more than welcome to continue, and, when I feel that I can say something useful again, I'll do so.
I'm happy to debate as long as I feel that it's either enjoyable or constructive.
Recently it's been neither; I feel that the main people I'm 'debating' with are primarily interested in debate as conflict/devils advocacy, and that, while they are responding to my posts, they are not putting as much effort into reading them as I would like.
(it goes without saying that I realise they may well feel the same about me, in which case, all the more reason to leave it for a while).
This thread has had its ups and downs, currently IMO its in a hole.
But it's 19 pages long and probably the best HOP vegetarianism thread ever, I'm sure it will pick up again in the near future, and, hopefully, by me stepping out of the current sniping match, it will develop in a more productive direction.
Some new blood would be good
Are you implying that I want it closed?
Because I've not said anything to suggest that I do.
What I said was that-
Written by: onewheeldave
OK, I think that I've had enough for now
i.e. everyone else is more than welcome to continue, and, when I feel that I can say something useful again, I'll do so.
I'm happy to debate as long as I feel that it's either enjoyable or constructive.
Recently it's been neither; I feel that the main people I'm 'debating' with are primarily interested in debate as conflict/devils advocacy, and that, while they are responding to my posts, they are not putting as much effort into reading them as I would like.
(it goes without saying that I realise they may well feel the same about me, in which case, all the more reason to leave it for a while).
This thread has had its ups and downs, currently IMO its in a hole.
But it's 19 pages long and probably the best HOP vegetarianism thread ever, I'm sure it will pick up again in the near future, and, hopefully, by me stepping out of the current sniping match, it will develop in a more productive direction.
Some new blood would be good
"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."
--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32
Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!
GOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom
Posted:
Cheers Spanner, I appreciate that
And yes, I will definitly be keeping an eye on the thread and will happily join in again when I feel it is appropriate.
Cheers Spanner, I appreciate that
And yes, I will definitly be keeping an eye on the thread and will happily join in again when I feel it is appropriate.
"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."
--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32
Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!
Shoryuken!
233 posts
Location: Hexham, Newcastle, England
233 posts
Location: Hexham, Newcastle, England
Posted:
Yeah, if it gets worthwhile again I'm all fingers.
Haha I feel like some bloody eagle or something.
Yeah, if it gets worthwhile again I'm all fingers.
Haha I feel like some bloody eagle or something.
GOLD Member
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posted:
Here is one to think about. Hope it’s ok Lightning, as it’s more an animal libber one than a vegetarian one.
Council bans goldfish bowls. Pet owners in the northern Italian city of Monza, best known for its Formula 1 Grand Prix, have become the first in Italy to be banned from keeping their goldfish in bowls. The town council passed a ruling "on the treatment of domestic animals, which will go into effect in a fortnight", council official Giampietro Mosca said.
Is this ruling over the top or wot?
Here is one to think about. Hope it’s ok Lightning, as it’s more an animal libber one than a vegetarian one.
Council bans goldfish bowls. Pet owners in the northern Italian city of Monza, best known for its Formula 1 Grand Prix, have become the first in Italy to be banned from keeping their goldfish in bowls. The town council passed a ruling "on the treatment of domestic animals, which will go into effect in a fortnight", council official Giampietro Mosca said.
Is this ruling over the top or wot?
If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh
Flying high!
245 posts
Location: At the beach.
245 posts
Location: At the beach.
Posted:
If god didn't want us to eat animals he wouldn't have made them out of meat.
If god didn't want us to eat animals he wouldn't have made them out of meat.
If everything seems under control, your not going fast enough!
It's not the size of the wave, it's the length of the ride!
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