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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:So I've now been a vegetarian for almost 3 years. I originally became a vegetarian because I realized I was a meat addict. There are also environmental concerns. Ethical concerns are way down on my list since I find it gets confusing for me to strongly support animal research for medical applications while opposing using animals for food. Especially because I'm not vegan.

But the final decision happened, not coincidentally, on the first day of Gross Anatomy dissection lab. ubblol

So after 3 years of almost total abstinence from meat (I'll eat meat if there is no other feasable option), I think I'm pretty much de-addicted. The idea of eating a large steak is just not at all appetizing to me.

BUUUUT, this vegetarian business is getting very inconvenient. It makes people stress over where to go for dinner, or what to cook for me. Furthermore, it significantly limits what I can order at a restaurant, and I can't stand it when the only vegetarian options on a menu feature zucchini and mushrooms (two of my least favorite foods).

So I'm starting to debate whether to de-classify myself as a vegetarian and just carry on with life eating very little meat. And by "very little" I mean less than one serving of meat a week. Since my initial reasons were for health, I don't see how this small amount of meat (which, when consumed, will preferably be organic) would change my risk factors. And such miniscule meat consumption wouldn't have much environmental impact. Besides, I have an unfortunate tendency towards anemia.

What do you think?


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield

Total posts: 3252
Posted:Written by: L i g h t n i n g


But for this reason, I cannot reconcile the viewpoint that eating animals is morally wrong, while medical research is a necessary evil. Thus, I choose not to have an opinion on animal rights.


How about-

medical research on animals saves human lives and is therefore justified (I personally disagree with this, but I'm trying to come at it from your viewpoint)

whereas-

eating animals does not save lives, therefore the immense suffering inflicted on food animals is not justified (with the exception, again from your point of view, of medically beneficial food items eg fish oil)

?


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield

Total posts: 3252
Posted:Written by: 'pOp'


why on earth would you let others suffer more when there is an option that causes less suffering?! that's how i feel...



I think there are two big reasons why meat eating continues in the west.

The first is simple ignorance. Many people still have the idyllic vision of cows strolling through the fields, chickens clucking as they scamper across the farmyard etc.

Others are aware that the vast majority of animals live far worse lives than this, but few are aware of the true horrors of battery farming etc.

Even I, an ex-vegan with a substantial interest in the issues, have been surprised at some of the stuff I've uncovered on the net as a result of being involved in this thread (a prime example being the use of debeaking in most 'free range' egg hens).

And of course, the most ignorant of all are our children, whose only education on our use of animals is in the form of lies in story books that present the above idyllic view of happy cows and pigs.

Those children become adults with what amounts to a 'meat habit', or at least a perception that it is 'normal' to consume meat- at this point they are disinclined to question too deeply.

My feeling, and I know many will object to this, is, if western culture wants genuine free choice on meat eating, then let our children see exactly how meat is obtained, either by trips to a slaughterhouse, or photos of debeaking etc- at schools as part of their early education.

If that was done I would expect the meat industry to be dead within a single generation.

The second big reason is profit. Meat farming is very inefficient when compared to plant farming (for reasons covered elsewhere in this thread i.e. it takes ten time more plant material to feed x people via feeding the plants to animals first, than if the people just ate the plants direct) which means there's a lot more money to be made by farming animals.

============

I think information is the key, and I think it's more important to get it to those with an interest.

i.e. don't waste energy trying to persuade hardened meat eaters, in most cases it will be totally futile.

My experience is that a lot of meat eaters love getting into arguments with vegetarians purely because they like arguing, and such debates tend only to strengthen their views.

Of course there's also plenty of vegetarians who love to get into such arguments, but I think it's the bigger thing to just refrain from them.

Instead focus on people who have a genuine interest and send them some of the links in this thread.

I'm old enough that I remember whem vegetarians where considered cranks putting themselves at risk of nutritional deficiency, when there where NO vegetarian options in resteraunts.

Things have changed, now vegetarians are a substantial minority, lowering meat consumption is a recomendation of the medical establishment, resteraunts have to cater for veggies.

Maybe in another twenty years meat eaters will be in the minority, and the end of the current 'animal holocaust' will be in sight.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne

Total posts: 2830
Posted:Faberge, I followed your link to "Unhappy Hens Lay Egs" but the information is wrong, and worse misleading. Its right up there with OWD's bodgie black and white photos of illegal practices, and extreme examples presented to skew the truth and sensationalise.

The site states that "Even confined, crippled, miserable, de-beaked and de-feathered hens will still lay eggs!" Well unfortunately that's true, but I said performance would drop. Cruelly treated birds would not lay nearly as many eggs as a happy bird.

The argument is that hens are genetically programmed to produce a certain number of eggs per year, is not quite true either. What they fail to say, is that genetic potential (eggs per year) is only reached if environmental conditions are optimum. If for example, the birds were stressed by the shed getting too hot or too cold, then production would decline.

In nature, animals don't breed when environmental conditions are harsh, like in a drought. They wait until the drought has broken, and there is plenty of feed for their progeny.

Again, I feel the case for vegetarianism is marred by half-truths and sensationalism.


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Burzaruka


enthusiast


Total posts: 233
Posted:I am sorry but if the parents of highschool children scream bloody murder over the Nick Burg video being shown by some teachers, what do you think they would do if they showed the slaughter of animals? I admit that neither is really a pretty thing.

I will concede that a crop of cows for slaughter vs. a crop of corn for picking, definatly takes longer to grow... so?

To me a statment like that is like saying a strawberry is sweeter than sour milk. Very very differnt things.

The profet of a single crop of cows is what 10, 20x that of crop of corn?? If not more?

A calf costs what 200-300 USD where corn the same weight might cost what 10-20 USD when bought right from the rancher/farmer?

The point being the profet of the crop of cattle offsets the effeciancy.


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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield

Total posts: 3252
Posted:Written by: Stone

Faberge, I followed your link to "Unhappy Hens Lay Egs" but the information is wrong, and worse misleading. Its right up there with OWD's bodgie black and white photos of illegal practices, and extreme examples presented to skew the truth and sensationalise.



Maybe you'd like to say what's wrong with the photos?

Anyone who's interested, I suggest you check the page and decide for yourselves: -

http://greenfield.fortunecity.com/hummingbird/285/battery.html
br>

Written by: Stone

The site states that "Even confined, crippled, miserable, de-beaked and de-feathered hens will still lay eggs!" Well unfortunately that's true, but I said performance would drop. Cruelly treated birds would not lay nearly as many eggs as a happy bird.



If so, then why do battery farms exist? If confined and debeaked hens actually did lay less eggs then surely it would make battery farms impossible.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne

Total posts: 2830
Posted:Oh Dave, I suppose its like we when we get circumcised. It generally happens when we are young and we don't remember the pain.

If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield

Total posts: 3252
Posted:Written by: Stone

Oh Dave, I suppose its like we when we get circumcised. It generally happens when we are young and we don't remember the pain.



????????????? confused

You've lost me.

Maybe you'd like to answer one of the two questions in my previous post?


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield

Total posts: 3252
Posted:Written by: Burzaruka


I will concede that a crop of cows for slaughter vs. a crop of corn for picking, definatly takes longer to grow... so?




The point I was making is that a piece of ground of a given area can produce enough plant based food to feed around 10 times the amount of people, than if the same area is used to feed animals which are then eaten.

This is easy to understand if you reflect on the fact that animals need energy just to move and breathe during their lives.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne

Total posts: 2830
Posted:Re previous post. The site states that "Even confined, crippled, miserable, de-beaked and de-feathered hens will still lay eggs! Well unfortunately that's true, but I said performance would drop. Cruelly treated birds would not lay nearly as many eggs as a happy bird".

OWD, I'll add that most caged birds are not treated cruelly, because otherwise there would not be an industry. The circumcision was in reference to de-beaking.

What I find objectionable to the photos you posted are that they present the worst case scenario, and are not typical or representative. There are welfare regulations to prevent situations, like in the photos, from occurring. I have seen photos where "free range" (outside) birds are just as miserable.

I think there is another reasons why meat eating continues in the west. That being it is a lot easier to follow a diet with some meat compared to a complicated vegetarian diet. It is also true that as underdeveloped countries become more affluent meat consumption increases.

Yep, I agree that if a few of u pampered city slickers worked on a farm for a few weeks, then your views would change. I also think the really cruel part of the process is the transport and subsequent slaughter of animals.

If you want to convert people to your cause, and I'm not anti-vegetarian, then I suggest u use logical, accurate and truthful arguments. And for goodness sake, stop over humanising animals.

Do animals have souls?


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Burzaruka


enthusiast


Total posts: 233
Posted:Written by:
The point I was making is that a piece of ground of a given area can produce enough plant based food to feed around 10 times the amount of people, than if the same area is used to feed animals which are then eaten.



This is easy to understand if you reflect on the fact that animals need energy just to move and breathe during their lives.









Yes, but animals can graze where it would cost thousands of dollars to grow crops through irrigation.



Look at the high-plains of the US... months go by through out the year without rain. I believe some parts of the SW are looking at close to 3 months now!



Your telling me, that crops that are to be eaten will grow there?



Nope, but wild grasses suited for that region grow in abundance and cattle can graze on the grasses.



Not everything is about energy, or what feeds who more... practical thinking... Life is a thinking mans game.


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_pOp_
BRONZE Member since Mar 2017

Playing OldSchool Poi
Location: amsterdam

Total posts: 593
Posted:ok, so i need to explain myself on the terminology.
i guess it would be different on different sides of the world, but here we have 2 terms for it: either "organic" or "biological".
it says as much as: grown with a respect to nature.
this means that "not even" free range eggs will have this title here, because they aren't that free range. farm eggs, meaning real live chickens running around on a farm laying eggs, getting fed organic food (so not genetically modified crap), do qualify as the above.

now about the whole 'unhappy chickens lay less eggs? but the industry needs money, why would they go for an option that has unhappy chickens?' thing.
it is just simple mathematics:
say a happy chicken lays an avarage of 10 eggs, and an unhappy chicken only 5. but you can stuff 20 unhappy chickens in one cage the size of the cage of the happy chicken, you will have an avarage of 100 eggs for that same space...
get it? 10 eggs vs 100 eggs!!! now try to tell them it's wrong, when they make 10 times more money...

and about the things burzaruka keeps saying: i can't give my opinion or reaction here, because most of my words would have been censored away...
but about your aunt: what about vegetables, pasta, nuts, soy products, fruit, potato, etc.? if you want to, there is always a way. but i guess your family just doesn't want to see.

this was pOp, signing off. nanu nanu.


meditate eRic.

I'm not normally a religious man, but if you're up there, save me, Superman!

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Burzaruka


enthusiast


Total posts: 233
Posted:pOp anything you want to PM to me, feel free...

We have difference of opinion, and thats cool, I forget who said it, but someone said that it isnt worth their time to try to convert a meat eater... perhaps it would be wise to adopt this sort of approach?

I'm just putting a differnt perspective out there for people to see, nothing I have said should be taken offensivly, because it isnt meant to be so.


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_pOp_
BRONZE Member since Mar 2017

Playing OldSchool Poi
Location: amsterdam

Total posts: 593
Posted:no that is not nescesary,
i didn't mean i had to curse or anything, it was just my twisted way of telling that i had nothing left to say about your attitude...
you say that what you say shouldn't be taken offensively, but the point of view you so strongly take in this discussion is the one of don't caring.
you don't care about the moral issues that some of us have painfully tried to explain here. you don't care just as long as you have whatever you want.
the problem is, and i tried to explain this in my post where i talk about feelings, is that people who choose to be vegetarian (not the ones that have to be because of lactose intolerance or any other medical urgency) do actually care. that is the whole point of being vegetarian. to state your perspective like you did is actually really offensive to most of the vegetarians, and i do believe you know that.
so please don't be all "if you want to PM me, feel free" in this thread, because if you meant it you would have PM-ed me that instead of putting it in this thread. and saying that, i realise that i should have PM-ed you this, but maybe i just care too much.
I don't have anything against meat eaters, in one of my previous posts about choice i actually put a choice of eating meat in it, but i do have a problem with people who like to just barge over somebody else's feelings. please understand this.
so in my view it's not a "difference" of an opinion: I have an opinion, you just don't care.
to everybody else who's been following this thread: I'm sorry if this has made the thread sound more negative, but i will refrain myself from writing again.
sorry.

eric.


meditate eRic.

I'm not normally a religious man, but if you're up there, save me, Superman!

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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne

Total posts: 2830
Posted:Ok, pOp you are wrong. It makes much more sense to have happy hens producing to their genetic ability. There are also regulations on the number of birds in a cage, and your example is typically way over the top. There is much research into this area to ensure happy birds. Check the links I posted previously for OWD.

Burzaruka, a soy burger would be a meat substitute burger. An organic meat burger should have been produced under the guidelines for organic produce (little chemical use, organic fertilsers etc). However, "organic" as with "free-range" has many meanings. From permaculture based systems to farming by neglect.

pOp's definition "grown with a respect to nature" is only part of the story, as you don't need to be an organic farmer to respect nature. In your example of grazing the high-plains, then I would imagine that if few chemicals were used in this system then it might get organic accreditation, if it passed the inspection process for chemical residues etc.


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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_pOp_
BRONZE Member since Mar 2017

Playing OldSchool Poi
Location: amsterdam

Total posts: 593
Posted:ok, one more reply:

my example would already have worked with:
- 1 happy 10 eggs-laying chicken, and
- 2 unhappy 6 eggs-laying chickens...

it was just about the principle of making money vs concience...

pOp.


meditate eRic.

I'm not normally a religious man, but if you're up there, save me, Superman!

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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield

Total posts: 3252
Posted:
Stone, like I said before I'm not 'humanising' (attributing human characteristics to them). The simple fact is that animals are conscious beings who can feel pain and distress.

That is not humanisng them in any way whatsoever.

Concerning your links, I waded through one of them and found absolutely nothing of relevance to this discussion. It is a scientific report comparing barn systems and cage systems. Throughout it objectifies hens as egg producing units.

Written by: Stone


I think there is another reasons why meat eating continues in the west. That being it is a lot easier to follow a diet with some meat compared to a complicated vegetarian diet.




'Complicated'??? This has been well gone into on other threads. The belief that vegetarians need to be super careful about eating the right foods to get adequate nutrition is an old fallacy.

Of course it's possible to have a bad vegetarian diet, but no more so than it is to have a bad meat containing diet.

If you veer towards whole foods (eg wholemeal bread rather than white) then you're going to be fine.

The medical community recommends eating portions from eat of the main food groups in you want to maintain health. Obviously, this applies to everyone, vegetarians and meat eaters alike.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield

Total posts: 3252
Posted:

'pOp', you're sounding disheartened and stressed. I hope it's some consolation that the link you posted a while back is one that I found very valuable and thought provoking.

I'm currently, as a direct result of that link, seriously considering moving more towards a vegan diet by cutting milk products (I don't drink milk as I find it vile, but currently use cheese and butter).

Some of the people on this thread are beyond reach; like I said above, don't waste time trying if it's causing stress, save it for those who are emotionally capable of empathising with beings of a different species.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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_pOp_
BRONZE Member since Mar 2017

Playing OldSchool Poi
Location: amsterdam

Total posts: 593
Posted:nice OneWheelDave,
cause i really feel comforted by reading your posts here...
you seem to say everything the way i wanted to say it, but somehow couldn't...
through that one link i put on about candida, i actually are leaning more towards a vegan diet again as well as trying to eat more raw vegetables. right now i find that it agrees with me more... (and the sinfull Ben&Jerrys I had yesterday didn't satisfy me at all).
so now i'm about to make my self a nice french-bread sandwich with thinly sliced, fried mushrooms on humous!!!!!
hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

pOp


meditate eRic.

I'm not normally a religious man, but if you're up there, save me, Superman!

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Twirly


Twirly

Shoryuken!
Location: Hexham, Newcastle, England

Total posts: 233
Posted:One Minute Silence forum; meat thread

For everything you could possibly hope to read about vegetarinaism/veganism. 27 page epic this one. For those who are giving up hope "converting" people, when this topic started I was a full blown meatchomper, but I've been veggy for over a year now, mostly due to this.

It starts out very dumb, and does degenerate at points, but if you start from Unity's first post on page 2 there is alot of interesting stuff.

Its probably not worth posting on it, cos the forums pretty much died since the band split up.


http://www.themeatrix.com/

^A funny/educational look (animation) at the truth behind farming.^

Respect
Davy


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_pOp_
BRONZE Member since Mar 2017

Playing OldSchool Poi
Location: amsterdam

Total posts: 593
Posted:WOW!!!!!
thanks!!!!
that is an eye opener.
this guy rhys really explained all i tried to do so well in the last post of page 2...
and he basically just answers to all the questions we discussed here in just one long post.
for those who never click on links, here is his post, starting off with a comment about a guy kinda like our friend here...


start of rhys' quote:

Written by:
Why do you two have such a problem with seperating a serious point from humour. Are you mentally deficent?



There's a fine line between being funny and being idiotic - you seem to be in the idiotic camp most of the time, not always, but most times. Sure, my friends rib me about veganism - it's harmless and quite funny most of the time and I'm sure it could be on here as well. I give as good as I get because we can't be millitant squares 24/7 can we? But when we get into serious debate about veganism they kind of shy up and want to change the subject fast because they take it, beneath all the light hearted fun, there is a serious debate which they don't really feel they can discuss.

And I'm not ignoring you - I'm ignoring the so called 'humour' and the obvious attempts at winding people up you endlessly display on my monitor. When you get back into 'I'm here for no reason but to be a Tory boy and piss the other dudes off' mode I will ignore you again - if you show signs of argument then I will continue replying to anything I believe warrants my answers. Get it? Now let's see if you can produce something valid outside your sad internet alter-ego...

But yeah, this thread is full of racist comments and juvenile remarks. Now if they were within a context that made these types of jokes a minority amidst a majority of good points, I think that then they're wholly justified. But as one hit wonders, they just don't work in my view.

Written by:
Rhys, why do you think it is wrong for us, human beings to eat meat (or why do you choose not to eat meat)?



I don't think it's 'wrong' for human beings to eat meat - I believe and can scientifically prove that an omnivore/ carnivore diet isn't essential to live a full, healthy life and I would also encourage any one to adopt a vegetarian life style, or more importantly, a vegan life style. Maybe the hunter/ gatherers HAD to kill animals in order to survive but their conditions hardly reflect today's world full of cruelty free alternatives. If you want info on veganism consult the web sites to gain knowledge of what substitutes can be made to make sure you are getting all your relevant vitamins etc. The hunters also had a relationship with their prey where as in today's factory farming age, humans have absolutely NO respect for that which they eat to the point that they deny to themselves that the animal has suffered for their food/ clothes/ cosmetics.

I believe that veganism is a privelage and their is nothing radical about respecting animals, I am far from an animal lover, but I see it a fair approach to protecting the rights for animals to live free of cruel methods of torture for something which doesn't have to happen in a so-called civilized world.

So basically, I choose not to eat meat to lead a cruelty free life. Through abstaining from animal/ animal by-product consumerism, that's one less guy paying the butchers bills.

Written by:
it is by the very design of a human beings that clearly indicates that eating meat is one of the things which we are designed to do. The fact that our jaw moves up and down rather than just sideways proves that we have adapted to eat meat...




Yeah, this is the most common argument against vegetarianism and skips the ethical argument to try and prove some biological truths. But let's just take what you're saying and think about it shall we: Just because our body is able to do something does not follow that we should do that particular thing, or that it is acceptable to do that thing. For example: I can take a [censored], but to [censored] on peoples heads is not a nice thing to do. Beating some one up or killing them is another example of things we CAN do, but in a civilized world, shouldn't do. You also presume our teeth are MADE to eat meat - not true. You can't take a bite into an uncooked cow, aside from the diseases you'd catch, it just isn't practical (think fruit and veg on the other hand unity). And also, If it follows from the fact that teeth can chew on meat, then this argument does not give us any reason to not eat humans unless you can think up a difference between humans and animals whereby I bet you start contradicting your argument some more.

Written by:
and the desin of our teeth, having cainines and inscisors for cutting and ripping...this is not needed for vegetables but for meat.



Really? See above and explain why we cook meat but don't neccessarily have to cook fruit and vegetables. Remembering that raw meat is full of bacteria, hence the cooking, hence the tooth/meat compatability.

Written by:
We are not even able to digest vegetables properly without the aid of bacterium, however our one stomach copes fine with the make up of most meats.



I think you will find that's bollocks. This is the data to put some factual evidence into your guess work:

"The digestion of proteins in the human stomach is accomplished by the aid of the enzyme, pepsin, which is most active at a highly acidic pH (~2). Natural carnivores do not chew their flesh into small pieces, they just tear it into chunks small enough to be swallowed, and rely on their highly specialized digestive system to do its work. Snakes, many birds, and many fish swallow their prey whole. Since humans have protein specific digestive juices that are about one-tenth as concentrated as those of natural carnivores, this means that the digestion of flesh would proceed one-tenth as fast, and therefore take ten times as long to be completed. Humans, therefore, simply do not have the natural apparatus necessary to properly digest concentrated proteins, and thus do not thoroughly digest concentrated proteins from any source (meats, poultry, fish, eggs, cheeses, beans, nuts, seeds, "seed cheese", tofu, texturized vegetable protein, etc.). Since humans cannot properly digest concentrated proteins, these rot and putrefy in the intestines producing the characteristic "rotten egg" odor of hydrogen sulfide, H2S. This is produced by the putrefaction of sulphur containing amino acids. H2S is one of the most toxic gases known and produces the characteristic odor of flatulence. The well know effects of eating "beans, beans, the musical fruit ..." are ample and undeniable evidence that cooked, concentrated proteins are not digestible by the human.

The opportunity for putrefaction and fermentation of partially digested concentrated proteins is increased markedly because of the long intestinal tract of the human vs. the natural carnivore. The carnivore is equipped with a very short intestinal tract such that its contents are removed from the body in a short time. Even with all the unique techniques that enable natural carnivores to quickly digest their food and quickly evacuate its residues, their excrement is foul smelling which indicates that total digestion and assimilation of flesh is not even achieved by these specialized animals.

The human, unfortunate enough to be culturally programmed to eat concentrated proteins from any source, not only does not properly digest them, but because of the relatively long length of the human intestines (5-6 times body length in the human, 30ft human vs. 3-6ft carnivore) these putrefying masses remain in the body a long time and thus their highly toxic by-products are absorbed into the body from the slow moving fecal mass. This process is called "autointoxication". It is made worse by the fact that concentrated proteins tend to slow motility through the human intestines also, i.e., they produce constipation. It is not uncommon for an extreme high protein eater to have only one bowel movement per week!! High protein eaters tend also to eat a low fiber diet that only compounds this problem. Some side effects of this constipation and autointoxication are the well-known belligerent attitude and sexual frenzy of the human carnivore. The common "morning erection", gleefully misinterpreted as being a sign that one is a "great lover", is a direct result of internal pressure due to constipation. Like healthy babies, animals, and humans eating a raw fruit and vegetable diet, one should have a full evacuation immediately after every meal.

Autointoxication is the reason for the highly offensive fecal, urine, body, perspiration, and breath odors of human meat eaters and even high protein vegetarians. This creates the lucrative markets for mouth washes, spiced tooth pastes, breath mints and chewing gums, oral sprays, deodorants and deodorant soaps, antiperspirants, compulsive showering, feminine sprays, odor-eater shoe inserts, and was probably the original motivation for perfumes. Argentines eat a very high animal protein diet and brag about their national per capita consumption of soap.

Since constipation, autointoxication, various common digestive disturbances, and numerous other "disease" symptoms are caused by consuming cooked, concentrated proteins, this practice creates the lucrative market for laxatives, headache remedies, anti-diarrhetics, and a vast array of "cold/flu" medicines. Since headaches are generally caused by a toxic, clogged colon or pressure of gases in same, the easiest, safest, drugless approach is to take an enema with plain water that is slightly above body temperature."

Written by:
In my view we have developed to eat meats as it is a good source of essential proteins, fats, iron etc (however, i do accept that these things can be obtained in other food stuffs.)



... And it's therefore right for you to sit and eat a bacon/ pig sandwich just because you're too lazy to find out what the alternatives are. If you need some info I can get fact sheets to you or alternatively, do a search to show you're interested in knowing the truth and not just copping out to justify your conscience for eating meat. There really are NO excuses unity, so pull your finger out! The West is heavily influenced by pro-protein propaganda because of the market there, why do you think less healthier products have a higher proffit margin? Exactly! You aint going to see Mcdonalds reccommend you guys the Multi Mcvitamin. First off, what is protein for: The construction and maintenance of tissue (it is not used for energy, except under emergency conditions).

Consider this:

The human infant is growing new tissue at the most rapid rate of its entire life. therefore, its protein capacity is at an all time high. What does Nature provide for its protein needs? Human milk is a liquid with a protein content of 1.1% of its entire diet and this is enough protein to support the most rapid growth rate, and hence this fulfills it's highest protein needs of the infant for it's entire life. When reaching adulthood, protein intake is necessary only to support maintenance, not additional growth; therefore, adult protein needs are even less. This can be sufficiently supplied with fruits and vegetables without resorting to concentrated sources: nuts/seeds, "seed cheese", beans, tofu, miso, "texturized vegetable protein" (TVP), etc. The fact that humans cannot digest concentrated protein from any source, would therefore reinforce this argument that we haven't "developed to eat meat" - rather we have got too lazy to bother finding out the cruelty-free alternatives.

All I ask is that you do try and stop using the age old meat eating clichs about human nature/ teeth/ natural to eat meat and revise veganism and understand that it's not that hard.

Written by:
Surely by not eating meat we are simply depriving our bodies of what it is designed for, wants and needs.



Only if the alternatives (all easy as hell to find and pick up in your local super market, like I say, there is no excuses for laziness) weren't there and waiting for you. Unless of course, you think a Mars Bar is more important than life. Alot of meat eaters die from heart problems - fifty years from now ask yourself if all those dead animals gunging up your arteries was really worth the time...

Written by:
I do not support the idea of battery farming, however i do support the eating of meats and proper humane farms...



Explain that one to me...

But before you do, to pressume your meat/ eggs/ dairy/ leather comes from a well pampered animal - it doesn't. Research extensively before you start making up stories about 'free range' eggs/ RSPCA friendly products. DO the hard work then we will discuss how torturing/ gassing/ starving/ locking up/ shooting/ beating/ skinning/ gutting/ animals is humane when if we did this to a human, it would be cruel as [censored].

Written by:
i accept that animals do have feelings, but if they have grown up in a farm yard environment, they would think of it as normal



Oh, and to have a black child born into slavery makes it normal for them to make the white man money? Come on unity, think about what you're saying. Do animals have any less right to live than you? If so, give me one argument that proves this to be true.

At the end of the day unity, I don't think you're a bad person. About twelve months ago I was making up the same excuses for eating meat whilst, ironically, protesting against Mcdonalds like I even knew why. I just think meat eaters are lazy as opposed to 'wrong' - You can take my advice or leave it - but if humans really were as important as we all try and make out then we would probably protect the natural world a little more than we do.

You aint a bad person, my ma' even eats meat and I love her, I just think instead of trying hard with the typical pro-carnivore arguments, do some research and then if you're feeling as passionate about the brutality and murder of sentient beings - then carry on with your arguments. If you stop to consider the inhumane treatment of other beings and cut away the propaganda clouding up your vulnerable mind, then maybe, just maybe, you will consider respecting animals a little more and stop thinking of them in terms of food and clothes.

Cheers mate, thanks for the chance to give my side across.

Oh, and Capuchin says:
Written by:
Even if you are vegetarian, you must still kill plants, your body will still destroy bacteria and other microscopic organisms.



Plants do have feelings. You are right. But my idea of what constitutes as life is where we are going to argue. Those who feel through very real emotions and senses common in the animal world (not excluding humans) owed to a network of complex nerves etc is my idea of where I personally put a precious tag on life. My idea is as follows: The response of the neuron to the nerve impulse and the capacity of the cell to be stimulated, make the cell a receiving and transmitting unit capable of transferring information from one part of the body to another. You hit a goat across the head and it will definately feel pain and consequently a series of emotions. You might know different to me, but I don't think this happens quite the same in a plants physical structure. I understand the the Venus Fly Trap for example, is a matter of hydraulics and not muscle tissue which allow them to respond to the world around them. I do know the nervous system of a fish, and all other vertebrates for that matter, consists of two systems: the 'cerebrospinal system' and the 'auonomic system'. Within these systems are the senses of touch, smell, sound, sight and taste. All relevant to our emotional capacity. A fish can feel pain, I won't participate in fish consumerism either.

Rhys.



and I would like to add to that: WOOT WOOT!!!!!

pOp.


meditate eRic.

I'm not normally a religious man, but if you're up there, save me, Superman!

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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne

Total posts: 2830
Posted:Written by:
Some of the people on this thread are beyond reach; like I said above, don't waste time trying if it's causing stress, save it for those who are emotionally capable of empathising with beings of a different species



Well I find that a bit condescending, if not openly rude.


frown frown frown


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Dentrassi
GOLD Member since Apr 2003

Dentrassi

ZORT!
Location: Brisbane

Total posts: 3044
Posted:Written by: Stone

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Written by:</font><hr />
Some of the people on this thread are beyond reach; like I said above, don't waste time trying if it's causing stress, save it for those who are emotionally capable of empathising with beings of a different species



Well I find that a bit condescending, if not openly rude.

frown frown frown



i think it was an open statement that perhaps shouldnt be read into to much.... 'those emotionally capable of empathising with being of a differnent species' is a pretty non-judgemental statement. it doesnt judge whether is a good or bad thing.


"Here kitty kitty...." - Schroedinger.

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Faberg
GOLD Member since Aug 2003

veteran
Location: Dublin, Ireland

Total posts: 1459
Posted:Written by: onewheeldave

I'm currently, as a direct result of that link, seriously considering moving more towards a vegan diet by cutting milk products (I don't drink milk as I find it vile, but currently use cheese and butter).



yeah, me too. i haven't bought eggs since i first read an article on free-range hens and debeaking, and that was only about a year ago.

it's a difficult one though, like yourself Dave, i find milk vile, and currently only use butter & cheese. and although i could easily substitute butter with a tasty enough vegetable based spread, i have never been able to find a good vegan substitute for cheese, cheese being one of my fav foodstuffs.

furthermore, i do a lot of hill-walking, trekking etc, and there just aren't any good mountain boots available (in ireland) which aren't at least partially made of leather.

if i was gonna cut out all dairy from my diet then i'd feel rather hypocritical if i didn't cut out the bi-products too. it's either 100% or not at all......

(if anyone know's of any good non-leather mountain boots then i'd love to hear about it. must be top quality though, as i'll be trekking in the himalayas in october)


My mind not only wanders, it sometimes leaves completely smile

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flid
BRONZE Member since Aug 2002

flid

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Warwickshire

Total posts: 3136
Posted:Faberge, check out these people for walking boots. A little pricy, but comparable to leather versions of the same calibre. For a couple of years I only bought shoes from vegetarian shoe shops because traditionally most mainstream non leather shoes have been aimed at those who can't afford it. Recently however I've been finding more and more good quality non leather in serious outdoor stores high street. There's a growing number of manufacturers of outdoor sports equipment choosing to use non leather for some products, primarily choosing to do so with practicality not vegetarianism in mind. A few weeks ago I got some sport sandals for about 50 uk pounds from Millets by this company. As far as walking boots go though, I plan to buy some of these when I take up paragliding later this year. Time will tell of course, but there's a range of very good materials available today wholesale. My non vegan/vegetarian parents bought a dining table last year for about 3 grand, which to their initial horror when readingh the litrature had fake suede on the chairs. Why? It looks 100% realistic and is easier to clean.



Hope this helps smile


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Faberg
GOLD Member since Aug 2003

veteran
Location: Dublin, Ireland

Total posts: 1459
Posted:thanks for that flid. some nice gear there too smile

the boots you pointed out aren't completely waterproof though, so would be no use to me unfortunately. however, i've just sent them an email enquiring about heavier duty boots, and also stockists in ireland.... worth a shot...... thanks again smile


My mind not only wanders, it sometimes leaves completely smile

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flid
BRONZE Member since Aug 2002

flid

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Warwickshire

Total posts: 3136
Posted:yea, paragliding in rain is just silly, so wasn't a criteria as mucch as ankle support for me smile

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Tao Star


Tao Star

Pooh-Bah
Location: Bristol

Total posts: 1662
Posted:if you're worried about the way the chickens are treadted, reather than dietary reasons, there are alternatives to cutting that stuff out all together. like only buying from farms where yo've been and know the score.

i know it's not quite all that simple, but i basically only eat meat and stuff from my friends' farms, so i know they've just been running round a field their whole life.


I had a dream that my friend had a
strong-bad pop up book,
it was the book of my dreams.

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flid
BRONZE Member since Aug 2002

flid

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Warwickshire

Total posts: 3136
Posted:Written by: Tao Star
so i know they've just been running round a field their whole life





and you eat no other processed/ready made food? Visible lumps of meat/glasses of milk/fried eggs make up only a percentage of the animal products consumed in the UK. Animal products get in all sorts of things, and unless specifically labelled otherwise, generally use whatever is cheapest as ingrediants (ie battery farmed chickens etc).


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Tao Star


Tao Star

Pooh-Bah
Location: Bristol

Total posts: 1662
Posted:no, i'm not perfect at all, but mainly i eat salad (no meat products there) and stuff i've cooked myself from raw ingredients. i never eat ready meals and stuff although i do buy frozen chip and things like that which sometimes have meat products in. I do eat sweets with gelotine in as well - sorry!

there obviously is stuff that had meat products in, but i avoid as much as poss.


I had a dream that my friend had a
strong-bad pop up book,
it was the book of my dreams.

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Faberg
GOLD Member since Aug 2003

veteran
Location: Dublin, Ireland

Total posts: 1459
Posted:that's all fine & well if you have access to such a farm. unfortunately, the masses who live in our cities and large towns don't always have access to such products.

My mind not only wanders, it sometimes leaves completely smile

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