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Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13920
Posted:So I've now been a vegetarian for almost 3 years. I originally became a vegetarian because I realized I was a meat addict. There are also environmental concerns. Ethical concerns are way down on my list since I find it gets confusing for me to strongly support animal research for medical applications while opposing using animals for food. Especially because I'm not vegan.

But the final decision happened, not coincidentally, on the first day of Gross Anatomy dissection lab. ubblol

So after 3 years of almost total abstinence from meat (I'll eat meat if there is no other feasable option), I think I'm pretty much de-addicted. The idea of eating a large steak is just not at all appetizing to me.

BUUUUT, this vegetarian business is getting very inconvenient. It makes people stress over where to go for dinner, or what to cook for me. Furthermore, it significantly limits what I can order at a restaurant, and I can't stand it when the only vegetarian options on a menu feature zucchini and mushrooms (two of my least favorite foods).

So I'm starting to debate whether to de-classify myself as a vegetarian and just carry on with life eating very little meat. And by "very little" I mean less than one serving of meat a week. Since my initial reasons were for health, I don't see how this small amount of meat (which, when consumed, will preferably be organic) would change my risk factors. And such miniscule meat consumption wouldn't have much environmental impact. Besides, I have an unfortunate tendency towards anemia.

What do you think?


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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ado-p
ado-p

Pirate Ninja
Location: Galway/Ireland
Member Since: 13th May 2004
Total posts: 3882
Posted:I still dont agree, I am anything but an average, read: stereotypical 'Meat n Two Veg' guy.

I've been to countries where meat is added to dishes for flavour not content....

I'm not knocking veggie food, all im saying is that you dont have to be a veggie to enjoy/cook good food. And you dont have to be a veggie to enjoy veggie food tongue


Love is the law.

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Skulduggery
Skulduggery

Pirate Pixie Crew Captain
Location: Wales
Member Since: 12th Aug 2004
Total posts: 8428
Posted:Why on earth do people fight so much about this topic?

I don't eat meat. It's my choice. I also don't eat Aubugines or swede but I don't find people arguing with me about that. It's just a personal choice.

Lets just let people choose if the do or don't wish to eat meat and leave it at that.


Feed me Chocolate!!! Feed me NOW!

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ado-p
ado-p

Pirate Ninja
Location: Galway/Ireland
Member Since: 13th May 2004
Total posts: 3882
Posted:Hey Skul



Its never really occured to me to argue with someone over choice..... veggie do veggie dont, tis all the same to me,



but flavour... now thats a whole different kettle of fish (or kittens if you dont like fish)



personally i dont like cucumber but its down to genetics and not choice and so i feel robbed....



I must admit though, Argueing about flavour, like i said above, is completly based on opinion, thus any debate is immediatley rendered fruitless (or meatless if you dont like fruit).



I would suggest organising a picnic. (no cucumber sandwhich's for me please).



Would anyone like an apple?



/edit/



yes, i am aware that there is a contradiction above, but it still makes sense if you replace opinion with personal taste ubblol

EDITED_BY: ado-p (1095766659)


Love is the law.

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Faberg
veteran
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Member Since: 26th Aug 2003
Total posts: 1459
Posted:you don't eat aubergines? shame on you!! spank

Written by: Skulduggery

Why on earth do people fight so much about this topic?




we're not fighting any more, honestly. that was all a few pages back wink

Written by: Skulduggery

Lets just let people choose if the do or don't wish to eat meat and leave it at that.



then there'd be no point to having a thread called "Thoughts on Vegetarianism" in the Discussion Forum smile


My mind not only wanders, it sometimes leaves completely smile

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onewheeldave
Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield
Member Since: 28th Aug 2002
Total posts: 3252
Posted:

The point I was wanting to make is that I suspect that a lot of meat eaters believe that, for example, veggie burgers are a inferior and bad tasting alternative to meat burgers. That vegetarians are sacrificing taste for moral principles/are depriving themselves.

Whereas the truth is that most vegetarians actually prefer the taste of their veggie burgers to meat burgers.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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ado-p
ado-p

Pirate Ninja
Location: Galway/Ireland
Member Since: 13th May 2004
Total posts: 3882
Posted:Dave

I prefer veggie burgers to normal burgers.... but only the birdseye ones.... smile

I see your point though.... maybe the great unwashed do see veggies as being somehow deficiant. Personally I would suggest its much more likley that they find them intimidating. Sub conciously labelling them as silently (and sometimes not so silently) claiming the moral high ground.

Sadly as with alot of things, people seem to lose respect instead of gaining it when making alternative personal choices.


Love is the law.

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onewheeldave
Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield
Member Since: 28th Aug 2002
Total posts: 3252
Posted:Written by: Flame Boy

Im jumping in on this coversation cos I only just noticed it so obviously I've missed a fair bit so maybe this has already been said, however, I have no probs with vegys but I'd like to point out that just by giving up meat is not going to decrease the number of animals that are killed; in fact I doubt if even the whole vegy population has had much of an impact on the meat industry biggrin


As I know, no one has brought that point up yet.

You'll have to elaborate on what you're saying; intuitively it would seem to me that if no one ate meat, then meat production would have to stop- surely companies aren't going to continue to produce a product that no one will buy?


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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ado-p
ado-p

Pirate Ninja
Location: Galway/Ireland
Member Since: 13th May 2004
Total posts: 3882
Posted:Written by: Flame Boy

giving up meat is not going to decrease the number of animals that are killed; in fact I doubt if even the whole vegy population has had much of an impact on the meat industry biggrin




My two cents here

Cattle/Chickens/Pigs etc.. They dont breed, they are bred.

Flameboy, therein lies an answer and a solution.


Love is the law.

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nearly_all_gone
nearly_all_gone

Pooh-Bah
Location: Southampton
Member Since: 3rd Aug 2004
Total posts: 1626
Posted:Written by: Stone




I cringe when I hear about substitutes. I prefer the real thing.







I personally think that if the choice is between killing an animal and not killing an animal but still surviving in just as good a way (often with better tasting stuff, as I see lots of people think), then not killing is a priori the better option. I think "substitute" becomes a good word when you think of the alternative.. abbatoir.



Written by: Stone


And plants do die for your taste. Its true plants arent cuddly, but they are alive before they are killed for your food. Genetically, theres not that much difference b/t a wheat plant and a chicken.







But a wheat plant is a lot further away from me in terms of consciousness and an experience of existance. Take chickens, for example, or any other form of animal life. They have rudimentary consciousness, they feel fear and pain (maybe as a result of instinct or as a survivalistic reflex, but it still exists for them) and through this I believe they feel discomfort. The conditions they're kept in is shocking, and I can't justify supporting a trade which does that by my dietary choices. I also can't justify eating the flesh of a being that has died unpleasantly, or support conscious life being bred in order to die. Plants are beautiful but their regenerative capabilities are far greater. And their seed-bearing capacities mean their DNA is passed on in virtually unchanged form, so if you look at them as a type of life, I think the same life can continue for generations of plant, maybe even the whole cycle of seed-to-plant for the thousands of years it continues.



Back to animals though. Philosophers have argued that these reflex survival actions do not mean intelligence or consciousness, but that we merely recognise their reactions in our own behaviour and sympathise with things that aren't even there. But I think that you can explain most human beahviour as a kind of survivalistic reflex, however remote and complex it is. I'm sitting here discussing this issue on the internet because of a communal instinct in me which tells me to talk to other people, to communicate, so I could pass messages of danger or recieve warnings, and so that I feel close to people so I can have support from them which in some situations could result in my survival. It's complicated but I can think of virtually no human situation that couldn't be explained in this way. So really, what difference is there between their less complex reflexes and my own?



I don't think that plants have this experience of life. They naturally bear fruit and seeds. If I could nourish people by feeding them my seed (mm, nice image there) then I would. Hey, anyone want some seed? You could put it in a sandwich. But it wouldn't be vegetarian friendly... or would it? Nothing dies in its production...



I might just leave that...



Interesting thoughts though Stone! smile


What a wonderful miracle if only we could look through each other's eyes for an instant.
Thoreau

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nearly_all_gone
nearly_all_gone

Pooh-Bah
Location: Southampton
Member Since: 3rd Aug 2004
Total posts: 1626
Posted:Written by: onewheeldave

I'm not sure that substitutes is a good word, it makes it sound that if you're not eating meat you're somehow lacking (nutrition or taste) whereas I think most vegetarians would agree that vegetarian food is way tastier (and healthier) than meat based food.



But unfortunatley, the human body is still adapted to gain sustenance from meat. There isn't a better source of protein, and it's a really good source of iron and stuff... I think that really, the human body does need meat. But that you can also get substitutes for this need which are just as good. But the purpose they serve is one of substitution, because they replace something which humans have evolved to eat.

Give it a few hundred thousand years. Our teeth will be the shape of can openers wink


What a wonderful miracle if only we could look through each other's eyes for an instant.
Thoreau

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...{SAFE}...
...{SAFE}...

"if i jump in the fire, will you?"
Location: USA, wishing I was in SA
Member Since: 1st Jul 2004
Total posts: 633
Posted:well ...honestly , i dont think that its about saving animals , hear me out ... just think about the number of people that are becomming of age to eat meat. all those little children that are subject to eating what their parents put in front of them . now considder the amount of people that are converting to veggies. now i dont know what the ratio would be ... new little meat eaters/converting veggies(???) but the population ratio would tell me that the meat eaters are out weighing the converters.

i dont much , i just put a bit of thinking into it and found this one conclusion.


i like breaking the Law frown , of Gravity wink !

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nearly_all_gone
nearly_all_gone

Pooh-Bah
Location: Southampton
Member Since: 3rd Aug 2004
Total posts: 1626
Posted:I don't think it's about saving animals. I think it's about not eating animals myself, and not wishing for animals to die in order that I may live. In which I'm successful.

What a wonderful miracle if only we could look through each other's eyes for an instant.
Thoreau

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onewheeldave
Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield
Member Since: 28th Aug 2002
Total posts: 3252
Posted:Written by: nearly_all_gone




But unfortunatley, the human body is still adapted to gain sustenance from meat. There isn't a better source of protein, and it's a really good source of iron and stuff... I think that really, the human body does need meat.





The human body gets sustenance from what is available, traditionally a combination of meat and vegetable foods.



However, it doesn't need meat, the existence of many millions of healthy long term vegetarians shows that.



Humans can live healthily on a mixture of meat and vegetation.



They can live healthily on a pure vegetation diet.



It's doubtful that they can live healthily on a pure meat diet (maybe eskimos are a counter example, but I suspect that there are genetic factors there, plus it's a very specialised form of meat i.e. sea animals and a very specialised lifestyle).



Certtainly it's pretty clear that a pure meat diet in the forms modern westerners take would probably kill you with heart attack/clogged up arteries/blood pressure etc.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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stroo
stroo

trusty sidekick to superman
Location: oxford, england, uk
Member Since: 23rd Feb 2003
Total posts: 799
Posted:totally. none of my family apart from my dad (who doesnt eat meat now unless his parents make him. lol) have ever eaten meat and ive got 1 amazing surfer/actor for a brother and the other plays county rugby, so you cant really call either of them unhealthy. i think that humans have got the brains that other animals havent so we can choose what we do and dont eat. Other animals that dont have the brains eat whats available to survive. Plenty of studies have shone that vegies have far lower colesterol on average and are 98% less likely to be become obese. Thats sounds pretty healthy to me.

Livin' on dreams and custard creams

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nearly_all_gone
nearly_all_gone

Pooh-Bah
Location: Southampton
Member Since: 3rd Aug 2004
Total posts: 1626
Posted:Feel a bit misquoted though, I am vegetarian and what I'm trying to say is that yes you can be fully healthy from just vegetation, but that substitutes of some kind of another (be that loads and loads of nuts and pulses, it substitutes something from a typical human diet of meat and vegetation) are required for that to work in the majority of cases. People would become anaemic if they just tried to subsist on garden salad and raw carrots. You have to make some kind of effort for protein, iron and all the other stuff that I can't specifically name because I'm not clued in about nutrition.

What a wonderful miracle if only we could look through each other's eyes for an instant.
Thoreau

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NOn
activist for HoPper liberation.
Location: ffidrac
Member Since: 23rd Jun 2004
Total posts: 1643
Posted:Written by: onewheeldave

It's doubtful that they can live healthily on a pure meat diet (maybe eskimos are a counter example, but I suspect that there are genetic factors there, plus it's a very specialised form of meat i.e. sea animals and a very specialised lifestyle).



I don't think you can feasibly say either way, 'humans are meant to eat meat' or, 'humans are not meant to eat meat'.... we have a genetical advantage in being physically able to eat both, in order to sustain ourselves and since we are in the priviliged position of having the choice then the argument either way seems to me to be irrelevant. It is merely a choice as to whether or not you become vegetarian, as we don't currently need to rely on either form. Whereas in the example OWD gave, the inuit will tend to survive primarily on meat, because lets face it, they're not going to be able to grow a lot of fruit or veg within the arctic circle, it becomes necessity. Although in this day and age it is not beyond ability to preserve and import from elsewhere if they so wish.

If the situation was reversed and there was a tribe of humans living on a remote island where there were no other inhabitants sizable enough for eating but there was a nice little mango grove and a bunch of other tasty vegetation, then they would probably be vegetarian out of necessity.

Back to the matter of choice, i can understand that it's easier to have two black and white categories of vegetarian and non-vegetarian but most stuff isn't black or white, there's never much room for all the shades of grey... so i propose that a new term be invented for all the folk who like their veggies but also a bit of fish/ gelatin/ rennet/ poultry or whatever their non-veggie weakness may be. How about...... vegenivore?


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if it makes no sense that's because it's NOn-sense.

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Faberg
veteran
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Member Since: 26th Aug 2003
Total posts: 1459
Posted:Written by: NOn

so i propose that a new term be invented for all the folk who like their veggies but also a bit of fish/ gelatin/ rennet/ poultry or whatever their non-veggie weakness may be. How about...... vegenivore?



nah.... that sounds too much like someone who eats vegans ubblol


My mind not only wanders, it sometimes leaves completely smile

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NOn
activist for HoPper liberation.
Location: ffidrac
Member Since: 23rd Jun 2004
Total posts: 1643
Posted:eek ok, so that one applies if you mainly vegetarian but occasionally enjoy a spot of cannibalism.... biggrin

carnitarian? no that's rubbish... vegefisharian? vegenotentirelyan? vege........gah.. dunno.... vegegahdunno! there we go, there's the new word biggrin


Aurinko freedom agreement reached 10th Sept 2006

if it makes no sense that's because it's NOn-sense.

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_pOp_
Playing OldSchool Poi
Location: amsterdam
Member Since: 22nd Aug 2003
Total posts: 593
Posted:Written by: darkpoet


and have you ever seen a healthy looking vegitarian??
no! theyre all anemic and a slate clammy gray colour





so there i am, ubbangel innocently surfing the net for vegetarian links...
ubblol then I find this link especially for darkpoet!!!!!

quote from the site: "Welcome to the first and only adult site made by and featuring a cast of sexy vegans and vegetarians! Veg Porn is alternative porn and sex-positive culture for herbivores and those who love them, and we think you'll find something here that tickles you fancy." ubbloco

oh man, what do people come up with next... poi-porn????
.


meditate eRic.

I'm not normally a religious man, but if you're up there, save me, Superman!

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Sir_Sheep
Sir_Sheep

old hand
Location: Chester, UK
Member Since: 1st Mar 2003
Total posts: 725
Posted:Written by: flid

Oi! Poi Pr0n was my idea!!!



Spoiling Christmas for small children since 2003.

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Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13920
Posted:www.jennifersteele.com (WARNING: ADULT MATERIAL!)

Poi porn has been done. biggrin

Did I mention that Jen Steele was in the camp next-door at Burning Man?


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Luminous Souls
Luminous Souls

newbie
Location: Austin, Texas, U.S.
Member Since: 25th Sep 2004
Total posts: 36
Posted:i'm a vegan. smile

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Tao Star
Tao Star

Pooh-Bah
Location: Bristol
Member Since: 30th May 2003
Total posts: 1662
Posted:i've been vegetarian for about 3 weeks now and it's absolute murder.


I WANT SOME MEAT!!!!


i'm a bad vegearian...


I had a dream that my friend had a
strong-bad pop up book,
it was the book of my dreams.

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onewheeldave
Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield
Member Since: 28th Aug 2002
Total posts: 3252
Posted:Here's a page on 'flexitarianism'- if you're going to crack in the near future it could be an alternative to bingeing on meat.



http://www.cbass.com/flexitarian.htm
br>


Alternatively, try to work out what about meat you're craving- if it's fat then there are vegetarian options with high fat. If it's protein, then eat some eggs etc.



If it's the taste then just stick with finding tasty vegetarian stuff and, in time the lust for meat should pass.



I've not eaten meat for many, many years, and really don't miss it.





"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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nearly_all_gone
nearly_all_gone

Pooh-Bah
Location: Southampton
Member Since: 3rd Aug 2004
Total posts: 1626
Posted:Thanks for the link Dave

I do find that sometimes, particularly when I'm wasted and my principles aren't exactly in the forefront of my mind, I want to give in and eat a burger or something. It's lucky I live in Brighton where you can easily get vegetarian options in most greasy burger joints - not so back in Dunstable!


What a wonderful miracle if only we could look through each other's eyes for an instant.
Thoreau

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Tao Star
Tao Star

Pooh-Bah
Location: Bristol
Member Since: 30th May 2003
Total posts: 1662
Posted:well i decided beforehand that i would only eat meat if i knew the farm it's from and that the animal had a good life - and also game that's from the wild cos obviously that's had the most natural life too.

it's ok when i'm home in somerset cos basically everyone i know has a farma and most of them are organic - it's just london i have a problem with!


I had a dream that my friend had a
strong-bad pop up book,
it was the book of my dreams.

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Spanner
Spanner

remembers when it was all fields round here
Location: in the works... somewhere...
Member Since: 27th Feb 2003
Total posts: 2790
Posted:Thanks for the link Dave - very interesting smile

But I'm obviously missing something here: what's the difference between flexitarianism and demivegetarianism? confused


"I thought you are man, but
you are nice woman.

yay,

:R"

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onewheeldave
Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield
Member Since: 28th Aug 2002
Total posts: 3252
Posted:Written by: Spanner

Thanks for the link Dave - very interesting smile

But I'm obviously missing something here: what's the difference between flexitarianism and demivegetarianism? confused



That depends on what a demivegetarian is- it's not a term I'm familiar with.

If they do mean the same I think the flexitarianism is more suitable in that most vegetarians maintain that vegetarianism involves zero meat consumption.

So the term demi-vegetarian, in that sense, is somewhat meaningless, or at least misleading, as one who eats any meat is not a vegetarian at all.

Flexitarian is one who eats primarily a vegetarian diet, but occasionally consumes meat (mayb for health reasons, maybe because, like Tao Star, they are having serious problems with cravings).

It has the advantage of not including the term 'vegetarian' in its name.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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Stone
Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne
Member Since: 13th Jun 2001
Total posts: 2830
Posted:Flexitarian, sounds like a contortionist.

Whats the difference between a flexitarian or demivegetarianism? Perhaps a question, more to the point, is whats the difference between a demivegetarianism and a pescetarian?

A demi vegetarian eats little of no meat, but may eat fish.

All these terms to deal with Dave, and you said it was easy to become a vegetarian wink

It just seems to me that what you are really discussing, in a round about way, is a healthy, balanced diet.

This may be an old fashioned concept, but I always though a vegetarian was a person who ate vegetables and no meat.


ubblol


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Spanner
Spanner

remembers when it was all fields round here
Location: in the works... somewhere...
Member Since: 27th Feb 2003
Total posts: 2790
Posted:OWD: You seem to be as familiar with demi-vegetarianism as the Vegetarian Society is with flexitarianism ubblol

I did mention demi-vegetarianism earlier in the thread, but I will explain again to save you rereading the whole thread smile

A demi-vegetarian is someone who eats no or little meat but may eat fish. That's not "may" as in "allows themself to", but as in "possibly". The difference is that that pescetarians don't eat meat, but definitely eat fish.

So, aside from the etymology, neither are vegetarian, that's true. But if that's so, surely there's no difference between being a flexitarian and being an omnivore? Both eat meat, both eat vegetables... smile


"I thought you are man, but
you are nice woman.

yay,

:R"

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