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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:So I've now been a vegetarian for almost 3 years. I originally became a vegetarian because I realized I was a meat addict. There are also environmental concerns. Ethical concerns are way down on my list since I find it gets confusing for me to strongly support animal research for medical applications while opposing using animals for food. Especially because I'm not vegan.

But the final decision happened, not coincidentally, on the first day of Gross Anatomy dissection lab. ubblol

So after 3 years of almost total abstinence from meat (I'll eat meat if there is no other feasable option), I think I'm pretty much de-addicted. The idea of eating a large steak is just not at all appetizing to me.

BUUUUT, this vegetarian business is getting very inconvenient. It makes people stress over where to go for dinner, or what to cook for me. Furthermore, it significantly limits what I can order at a restaurant, and I can't stand it when the only vegetarian options on a menu feature zucchini and mushrooms (two of my least favorite foods).

So I'm starting to debate whether to de-classify myself as a vegetarian and just carry on with life eating very little meat. And by "very little" I mean less than one serving of meat a week. Since my initial reasons were for health, I don't see how this small amount of meat (which, when consumed, will preferably be organic) would change my risk factors. And such miniscule meat consumption wouldn't have much environmental impact. Besides, I have an unfortunate tendency towards anemia.

What do you think?


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne

Total posts: 2830
Posted:OWD, I said the B-12 thing was a personal opinion, ok. And just because U say vegetarian diets don't need supplements, that does not necessarily mean that they don't need supplements. It's this type of manipulation of facts that annoys me. So against my better judgement I'll spell it out.

I agree that the vegetarianism is a good thing, necessary even. But to my mind some of the comments in this discussion hint of elitism. It's so faint you would hardly notice it, but it's there and it puts me off me veggies.

I also disagree with the way the case for vegetarianism has been argued. Personally, I take umbrage when people use religious, emotive and unscientific arguments to justify their cause. I think these types of arguments also undermine the credibility of vegetarianism, and do much to detract from what is obviously a good and healthy way to live.

So for example, don't:
Tell me vegetarianism is a Buddhism philosophy, when that is not strictly true (religious).
Tell me I'm a really a herbivore, when we (as a species) are obviously omnivores (scientific/evolutionary).
Make me feel guilty by humanising things, and telling me I'm a cannibal and I'm eating corpses (emotive)

I really have a problem with the emotion manipulation. Like I don't agree with the way pOp plays the emotional card: I only eat 'organic' yoghurt, because yes: cows suffer tremendously in the milk industry: try having boobs that weigh 10 times more than is natural, having your offspring murdered and die an early death after having to sit 24/7 with no room to move! Because that's a load of bull.

Firstly, how are organic cows different too standard cows? Second, while it is true that the udders of cows, bred for milk production, would become painful if they were not milked regularly, and they are kept lactating for most of their life. It has been my experience that cows have a rather pleasant life, better than most people living in third world countries. They eat pasture all day, then amble up to the dairy for milking with plenty of feed in the bail, then back out to the pasture for more eating pasture.

The bottom line on animal production is that if animals are miss-treated they don't perform. As farming is about performance, then it is in the best interest of the farmers to keep their cows happy. Which they are, and most farmers are not cruel by nature anyhow.

Also, I think if you guys were really serious about furthering the case for vegetarianism then you could be less confrontationable. Like I think a better approach than hassling some poor overworked pizza guy about what's in a pizza, would be to suggest that vegetarian pizzas are trendy and will sell well. I think it is a real invasion to expect some poor chip cook to have to get the oil can so every vegetarian that walks in to the shop can read the label before the buy a dollars worth of chips. That's just being arrogant! Anyhow, most pizza places and restaurants have vegetarian meals. There are even vegetarian pizza places, well at least in Australia.

Xopher, why do I think vegetarians would object to GMOs. Call it a hunch wink Perhaps its because they would not consider it natural, and animal genes have been added to plants. I would suggest that you get new radar as your is obviously broken wink GM's are a huge issue worldwide, and there are lots of people coming over from the States telling us how bad they are.

Hope that mekes sense smile


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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native
SILVER Member since Jun 2004

native

sleeping with angels
Location: anaheim CA usa

Total posts: 508
Posted:we are desighend to eat meat we have sharp teath for a reson are body is ment to break down meat. by all aspects of nature we should eat meat. any one who tells you that its not good to eat meat should get there head examend
sleep with angels muckieha


SLEEP WITH ANGELS muckieha

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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield

Total posts: 3252
Posted:Written by: Stone

OWD, I said the B-12 thing was a personal opinion, ok. And just because U say vegetarian diets don't need supplements, that does not necessarily mean that they don't need supplements.




The fact remains that vegetarians don't need b12 supplements- millions of vegetarians live very healthy lives without any supplements.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield

Total posts: 3252
Posted:Written by: Stone
So for example, don't:
Tell me vegetarianism is a Buddhism philosophy, when that is not strictly true (religious).
Tell me I'm a really a herbivore, when we (as a species) are obviously omnivores (scientific/evolutionary).
Make me feel guilty by humanising things, and telling me I'm a cannibal and I'm eating corpses (emotive)



I never said it was a buddhist philosophy, I brought buddhism in mainly because of it's view of animals as sentients beings i.e. they can feel and are conscious.

Concerning the fact that animals can feel pain and are sentient- that isn't humanisng them.

It's just a fact that both animals and humans can feel.

Not all vegetarians are going to restrict their discussion to the health benefits of being vegetarian because many are veggie for moral reasons i.e. they consider the killing of animals for their flesh to be murder.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield

Total posts: 3252
Posted:Written by: Stone


The bottom line on animal production is that if animals are miss-treated they don't perform. As farming is about performance, then it is in the best interest of the farmers to keep their cows happy. Which they are, and most farmers are not cruel by nature anyhow.



Wouldn't the horror of battery hen farming would suggest that this isn't true?

Battery hens are severely mistreated.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:I agree with every word Stone just said. There are a thousand great reasons to be a vegetarian. There are about six million BS reasons. I prefer to stick to the good reasons.

I would like to point out that since I stopped being a vegetarian, I have eaten seafood three times, and that's it. Oh, I might have tried one bite of someone's Tandoori chicken.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Pyrolific
BRONZE Member since Jan 2001

Returning to a unique state of Equilibrium
Location: Adelaide, South Australia

Total posts: 3289
Posted:Stone, milk is ok by vegetarians (although it shouldnt be, because it contains blood from mastitis) I think.

As for animal Cruelty.

. I dont think you have to be a vego to be against animal cruelty. For example, I live on a farm where we grow goats for milk and meat. they lead a very luxurious life with all the high quality feed and are hand milked daily. They are happy goats. then one day they get an extra special bowl of their faviorite food, and bam the lights go out. We use a rifle from point blank range at an angle recommended as the best possible instant kill. These goats die instantly. there really isnt much sufferring in this process. Perhaps a philosophical right to life and natural death argument could be mounted, but Ive explored those arguements and they dont wash with me, in fact I think they are a bad joke in this day and age when the population is manipulated by big corporates into consumerist lifestyles which harm them and the environment.

now at the other end of the spectrum you have commercial abbotoirs(sp?) where the animals are in obvious distress from the moment they are loaded on the truck, and it only gets worse. Animal cruelty is endemic, and after all - thats not surprising given the nature of the job.

The meat industry has a lot of health issues as well, although to be honest I dont know about the health issues in teh Oz industry - a lot of the reports i've read have been from US industry.

Then there is the environmental impact, which has been discussed, and the personal health issues which Lightning accurately outlined (as usual).

So even without all the emotive "think of bambi everytime you bite into a steak" style arguments, and the religious reasons, there is still a lot of good reasons to be vego.

Being vego is cheaper than being a meat eater anyhow (in most countries I've travelled to).

and Stone - I think GMOs are the pits, and pose a serious problem, mostly because they are being controlled by multinational corps who on the whole suck the life from the world (IMHO)

Josh


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Help! My personality got stuck in this signature machine and I cant get it out!

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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne

Total posts: 2830
Posted:OWD, I hate cage houses, nearly as much as I hate intensive piggeries. And I know this doesn't make sense to us humans, perhaps because we aren't chooks, but chooks housed in cage houses produce well. I feel sure that you would agree that if animals were being treated poorly then production would decline.

Put another way, while I think cage houses are cruel, the chooks don't seem to mind that much. Anyhow, we certainly have a wide choice of organic and free-range eggs at the supermarket. So it is relatively easy not to support the cage house industry. Without support the industry will decline, and this will lead to more humane egg production.

Josh, some where along the line there has been a blurring b/t the case for vegetarianism and animal rights. Anyhow, I think it's the Maasai who use the blood from their cows as an important protein source wink While mastitis is a bacterial infection of the teat and udder, caused by Staphylococcus aureus. Milk from infected cows should be separated, and not used for human consumption.

GMOs pose serious problems for many reasons including allergies (hazel nut DNA in beans for example), but I have to agree that it's the multinational corporations who scare me the most. As the public plant breeding programs are being dismantled, it's the multinational companies with their Triffids and terminator genes that are taking over the world's food production. These companies will (have) lock farmers into systems that are heavily reliant chemicals to grow GM plants. Just to contradict myself, there are good arguments for GMs, but not in the hands of Monsanto et al.


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Eera
BRONZE Member since May 2003

old hand
Location: In a test pit, Mackay

Total posts: 1107
Posted:Are we designed to eat meat? Maybe, maybe not.

We are absolutely not made to cope with the refined sugars and virtually zero nutirional value of the vast majority of prepackaged food we'll happily eat. Considering the average western diet now it's a moot point.

Is a vegetarian diet healthier than an omniverous one? You can live off white bread, dark chocolate and Pepsi and truthfully call yourself vegetarian, so no.

15 years ago free-range eggs were unheard of, then people asked for them and they've appeared. Freedom food meat (RSPCA inspected and approved for quality of animal care) is appearing in supermarkets because it's being asked for.

As the customer, we ultimately have the power to get things changed though it's going to take more than one voice to do so.


There is a slight possibility that I am not actually right all of the time.

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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield

Total posts: 3252
Posted:Written by: Stone

OWD, I hate cage houses, nearly as much as I hate intensive piggeries. And I know this doesn't make sense to us humans, perhaps because we aren't chooks, but chooks housed in cage houses produce well. I feel sure that you would agree that if animals were being treated poorly then production would decline.



No, I absolutely do not agree that production is an indicator of how well the animal is treated.

Written by: Stone

Put another way, while I think cage houses are cruel, the chooks don't seem to mind that much. Anyhow, we certainly have a wide choice of organic and free-range eggs at the supermarket. So it is relatively easy not to support the cage house industry. Without support the industry will decline, and this will lead to more humane egg production.



How would you expect a cage hen to display their suffering?

Here's a link to a comparison of a battery hen life and a non battery hen: -

http://greenfield.fortunecity.com/hummingbird/285/battery.html
br>
normally I post some relevant extracts, but it's pretty sickening stuff so I'll leave it to everyone to decide whether to check it out.

Lastly, I'll just remind everyone who wants to buy non cruel eggs to be wary of what it says on the packaging. The producers of battery eggs have no scruples about using misleading wording such as - 'Farm Fresh', 'Country Fresh', and 'Naturally Fresh'.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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flid
BRONZE Member since Aug 2002

flid

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Warwickshire

Total posts: 3136
Posted:that has to be the most sickening webpage background i've seen in a long time! eek

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Faberg
GOLD Member since Aug 2003

veteran
Location: Dublin, Ireland

Total posts: 1459
Posted:while we're on the subject of eggs (& me being HOP's resident eggcentric and all.....) Free Range is not all it's cracked up to be. Free Range conveys a positive image of animals living outdoors as nature intended, though this is not always the case. and ALL egg production systems involve the disposal of unwanted male chicks frown

My mind not only wanders, it sometimes leaves completely smile

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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield

Total posts: 3252
Posted:Written by: Faberg


while we're on the subject of eggs (& me being HOP's resident eggcentric and all.....) Free Range is not all it's cracked up to be. Free Range conveys a positive image of animals living outdoors as nature intended, though this is not always the case. and ALL egg production systems involve the disposal of unwanted male chicks frown





Cheers for the link; I was very surprised at this: -



"Debeaking is more common in free-range hens than battery hens"



I get eggs from a local health co-op ('Beanies' in Sheffield), because I am aware that free range isn't always as good as it sounds.Beanies are pretty ethical and withrdaw stock if they find it to be dodgy, so I reckon it's the best bet for getting ethically sound eggs for me.



I wouldn't mind knowing more about the free range de-beaking thing and will be looking on the net etc.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:OWD, that has to be the most amazingly biased website I've ever seen. Black-and-white photo off the hen in the cage courtesy of ALF? Good heavens! What ever happened to objectivity?

Believe me; I'm not defending cage production, but...sheesh!


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Faberg
GOLD Member since Aug 2003

veteran
Location: Dublin, Ireland

Total posts: 1459
Posted:Written by: Stone

The bottom line on animal production is that if animals are miss-treated they don't perform. As farming is about performance, then it is in the best interest of the farmers to keep their cows happy. Which they are, and most farmers are not cruel by nature anyhow.



i strongly disagree with this, Stone. i would be more inclined to agree with this


My mind not only wanders, it sometimes leaves completely smile

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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield

Total posts: 3252
Posted:Written by: L i g h t n i n g

OWD, that has to be the most amazingly biased website I've ever seen. Black-and-white photo off the hen in the cage courtesy of ALF? Good heavens! What ever happened to objectivity?

Believe me; I'm not defending cage production, but...sheesh!



I did a search and chose that out of many others that basically said the same stuff and had similar photos.

Yes, some of the photos are from the ALF, they're still valid photos of real situations. And, some of the photos are from the RSPCA.

I suspect you're going to be hard pressed to find anything that makes battery farming look acceptable, but, if you really don't like the link then perhaps you could find something more objective.

I've been looking into the issues surrounding 'Free Range' hens, and it's been a real eye opener: -

http://www.airflow.net/chukkies/freerang.htm
gives definitions of the various types of hen keeping and explains why some forms of very ethical and compassionate forms of hen keeping can't be legaly classed as 'free range'

http://www.upc-online.org/merchandise/debeak_factsheet.html
a page on debeaking. Hopefully, Mike, you'll appreciate this one more as it's got quotes and references to works on animal husbandry.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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Xopher (aka Mr. Clean)


enthusiast
Location: Hoboken, New Jersey, USA

Total posts: 456
Posted:Stone, my point was that people are vegetarians for all sorts of reasons, not all of which match up with natural-foodism, or even ecological sensibility.



I, for example, am a vegetarian largely because I believe I have a geas from the Otherworld about it. My geasa do not include any restrictions on GMOs. While I have some ecological concerns about monoculture, I also know that there is not one single incident of a GM crop being harmful to people who ingest it; I consider it a fairly silly concern, actually.



Moreover, I believe that the GM crop movement has a positive benefit* in that gene science is getting funding. Only gene science (with the help of cybernetics) has any hope of ushering in the post-human era, which I await with great eagerness despite the fact that I'm unlikely to see it.



*It also has costs, of course. Whether the benefits outweigh the costs is a matter for debate; just not an obvious no-brainer IMO.

EDITED_BY: Xopher (1088184072)


"If you didn't like something the first time, the cud won't be any good either." --Elsie the Cow, Ruminations

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Xopher (aka Mr. Clean)


enthusiast
Location: Hoboken, New Jersey, USA

Total posts: 456
Posted:Written by: L i g h t n i n g

Food sources plentiful? Ever tried to subsist by eating berries and fruits in the wild? They're few and far between, especially in mid-January.



These days. In places where you and I live. But with only a million people worldwide, we (well, they) wouldn't have to live in those places. (Besides, it's a dream, not a plan for the real world.)


"If you didn't like something the first time, the cud won't be any good either." --Elsie the Cow, Ruminations

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Burzaruka


enthusiast


Total posts: 233
Posted:I never understood the concept of not eating meat.



I understand that too much of any one thing can eventually be bad for you, even certain veggies arnt good in large quatities. I think those tend to lean more towards peppers and what, but why not eat meat?



Mankind has been eating meat for thousands of years, millions and billions depending on who you talk to... if we have done it for that long, why should it all of a sudden be bad for us now?



I don't comprehend why people think it is morally wrong, but then again, people don't comprehend my morals all the time, so I guess you just gotta learn to live.



I enjoy eating meat, red meat, white meat, fish... not so much but a can of tuna instead of a protien shake can be a good change up. It tastes good to me, nothing tastes better than a steak thrown on the barby... grill it till there is just a thin strip of red and a bit of pink and a nicly browned outside... man just makes the mouth water... excl



How can you not like that???





Well each to their own, I eat what I want, if I have it and if I cant get it I settle for something else.



I suggest that people do the same. Eat what you want and if you cant get it, want something else and eat that... food is good diet and exorcise are the key to healthy living. Dont eat too much of one thing, and burn more calories than you take in and you will have a lean healthy body all the days of your life.





BTW, what is a vegan?

EDITED_BY: Burzaruka (1088207899)


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Dom
BRONZE Member since Dec 2001

Dom

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Bristol, UK

Total posts: 3009
Posted:Burz - there's a whole heap of reasons not to eat meat. Moral, logistical, health, religious, personal preference, etc.... I'm not going to go into them but there are loads of veggie sites on the net that will

Just wanted to comment on the free range thing. Ever since I saw Baraka 1 2 3 I've happily been spending nearly twice the amount to only buy free range or organic chicken. On top of that if I can buy outdoor reared & organic bacon I will as most pigs these days have been bred to have a lot less fat than nature intended - more meat for profit but not good for the animals. And the taste is certainly a lot better!

My reckoning is if I'm going to eat meat I have to at least try to make sure that the animal has not suffered and environmental impact is reduced (battery farms produce amazing amounts of waste!).

Sorry to hijack a veggie thread by talking about meat!


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Pyrolific
BRONZE Member since Jan 2001

Returning to a unique state of Equilibrium
Location: Adelaide, South Australia

Total posts: 3289
Posted:There are two kinds of GMO scientists....

Those who are for it and those who are against it. All are experts to varying degrees.

Those who are for it are _invariably_ on the payroll of organisations who stand to make a huge profit out of it.

Those who are against it, are still experts - just not on the payroll.

There are a large number of reasons the way that GMO research / implementation should be slowed down / halted, and none excpet profit for continuing it the way its going.

unfortunately Ive got to study for a damn exam right now so I wont turn this into an exhibit of how messed up the GM industry is.

Anyone wanting a good read on the reasons why GM is a seriously stuffed industry in all except a basic theoretical sense should read;

'Seeds of Deception' by Jeffery M smith.

the guy has shown a hell of a lot more of a scientific approach to GM than any of the big food/chemical companies trying to push it on the world, and presents a very well documented and supported argument against this insidious industry.

Josh


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Burzaruka


enthusiast


Total posts: 233
Posted:Dom, I dont really see any reason not to eat meat. Like I said, it has been done for a long long time, why stop now? If I read Lightning's orriginal post right, this was a topic on weather or not he should consider himself a vegitarian. Eating meat or discussing meat in my opinion is just as viable as discussing veggies or the eating of veggies. So I don't think you were off topic in the least. smile

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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne

Total posts: 2830
Posted:Dave, those black and white photos??? Anyhow, I have taken the easy path in response to your questions, and put in some links to some heavy reading. Cage density effects on production and welfare of layers and Barn hen production.



Xopher, apologies for generalising, but you are the first vegetarian I have known to be pro GM. My sister told me about the hazelnut DNA in beans, and she was most concerned because one of her kids is allergic to nuts. There is not much public funding for "science" in any sector in Australia. It's the multinationals that are doing the research into GMs. And actually cost is not a problem, it's a lot cheaper and quicker to breed GM plants than by traditional plant breeding.



Burzaruka, check these Facts on meat consumption.







If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Burzaruka


enthusiast


Total posts: 233
Posted:I have removed this because it wasn't how I truly feel nor was it what I truly meant to say. I apologise again.
EDITED_BY: Burzaruka (1088295105)


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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne

Total posts: 2830
Posted:Well you did ask. But I didn't mean to put you off ya tucker, though ubblol

Suggest you ask OWD why a cow isn't a cow? wink

smile


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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flid
BRONZE Member since Aug 2002

flid

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Warwickshire

Total posts: 3136
Posted:Written by:
Wait, you are assuming that I actually care about all these "facts". I dont, I enjoy my food.



Then why are you posting in the discussion forum if you care not about facts?

Written by:
I never understood the concept of not eating meat.



And you never will if you persist in disregarding all other people's views without taking them seriously. People who involved in activism do so because they really beleive very strongly in their cause. I don't disregard anyone's beleifs, if they've spent time researching it and take it seriously. With the exception of a minority of ADHD tourists who just wanna get in the papers (which you get in any group), people in activism slave away day in day out for what they beleive in and to make the world a better place, for others around them. Granted, some activists have a pretty twisted view on reality, and I don't agree with all of their causes. But I have respect for them, if I take time to look at the world from their perspective, and see the motivation for what they are doing is based in goodness. Take for example a racist, who campaigns for a pure white state. Obviously off his nut, but if he's doing it because he was brought up to beleive it, if his only run ins with non whites have been bad and he is doing it to protect his family and friends, then I have respect for him. I might not agree, and in this example I would definately try and change his views, but he has my respect.

The main problem with the world, whether it be human suffering, animal suffering, the environment etc is not that people are all evil, the perpatrators of it are generally small in numbers. The problem is the ignorance of practically everyone else about it and apathy towards doing anything about it. Traditional problems with the world have been allowed to persist through lack of anyone thinking for themselves, looking at science, looking at the facts of the matter and saying 'hey, this is wrong' for themselves, then doing something about it. In a lot of cases positive change can be brought about by a small number. With 24 hour news channels, the internet, a huge amount of charities putting out info these days I'm affraid I have no repect for those who simply dismisses all informtation on the basis that what they are doing is ok because it has been done before by other people.


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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield

Total posts: 3252
Posted:Written by: Burzaruka




BTW, what is a vegan?





Hi Burzaruka



Most of the questions you ask are answered in other pages of this thread and it would be well worth while reading the other eight pages.



From your posts it's obvious that when it comes to reasons for vegetarianism based on animal rights and animal suffering, that you simply don't care.



Fair enough, I'm not going to attempt to convert you. But many other people do care, and that is why they don't eat meat, and campaign for those issues.



A vegan is someone who doesn't eat any animal produce whatsoever, no flesh, no milk, no eggs etc.



I hope, if you're wanting to contribute to this thread that you'll endeavour to not get heated/antagonistic, as it's been a very productive and respectful thread, despite the controversy of the issues and peoples strong feelings.



I ask this because of past threads which have gotten out of hand; I know that it's never just one person, that it takes several to have a verbal fight; but I feel that from the wording of your posts on this thread, and the response to them, that there is a danger of it.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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_pOp_
BRONZE Member since Aug 2003

Playing OldSchool Poi
Location: amsterdam

Total posts: 593
Posted:yeah, and that's why i didn't post for a while.



my reason for being a veggie is that i just don't want to eat a dead animal (anything that had a face) or any part of it (gelatin, foodcolouring, rennet, flour enhancer, etc.). and it remains a personal choise, for me the one of the way of the least suffering. I am not someone to attack another upon eating meat, when in a restaurant I might joke about it once, but I won't persist.



why the whole "humans aren't carnivores" thing got dragged into it, is because the meat eaters amongst us seem to feel under attack, even when they arent, as if "we" are trying to deprive them of their god given right of a slap of nice red steak on their plate, hence the reaction of burzaruka, which i find somewhat ignorant about other people's feelings.

and that brings us back to one of the main issues for being a veggie or a vegan, because we care about other people's and animal's feelings .

to me meat products taste like suffering, and you can say that a milk cow doesn't suffer or else it wouldn't produce, but that's a load of bull... (read the link on freerange eggs).



why on earth would you let others suffer more when there is an option that causes less suffering?! that's how i feel...



in almost every supermarket you have the option to chose between products.

there are loads of cookies without eggs on the shelfs with cookies with, and they taste great!

next to a butcher shop there is often a choice of "organic" meat. and the same applies to dairy products.

why not, if you have the chance, try and help to make this world a happier place?

please give it a chance!



eric pOpsteric. (just call me a hippie)



* on the background you can hear the stereo playing: "'cause all we are saying: is give peace a chance!"


meditate eRic.

I'm not normally a religious man, but if you're up there, save me, Superman!

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:I find vegetarianism to be more ethically simple than omnivorism, and I did acknowledge this when I first chose to be a vegetarian. However, without animal research, I would never have benefited from this drug that has almost miraculously healed my back. Animals suffered and died for my benefit. I remember this every day.

But for this reason, I cannot reconcile the viewpoint that eating animals is morally wrong, while medical research is a necessary evil. Thus, I choose not to have an opinion on animal rights. Of course, we should not inflict unnecessary and cruel suffering on any being. Torturing an animal to death just for the sheer heck of it is wrong; I think that's pretty basic. But the finer points as to where to draw what line aren't so simple. I don't think that there can be a single, unified theory or policy regarding when it's OK to keep animals captive and cause them to suffer and die...and when it isn't.

It's a lot like the abortion issue, in a lot of ways. What is a "valid" reason to have an abortion? (That's a rhetorical question used to make a point! Let's not get into that discussion here!)

See why it's difficult to set clear lines? It's too much like this board: lots of grey. biggrin


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Burzaruka


enthusiast


Total posts: 233
Posted:Let me rephrase a few things I said last night and totally retract others.





To me, an animal is an animal, those that are meant for eating are meant for eating. They must die, in order to be eaten.



Comming from someone who takes his 30.6 out every year and goes buck and doe hunting and has since he was 14 the death of an animal isnt a big deal. A shot through the lungs and heart or a smack on the head with a large hammer of sorts, gets the job done.



I dont find it cruel, I am sure we could all think of cruel ways to die. As Josh said with his farms methid of slaughtering goats there are humaine ways, and definatly inhumaine...



I dont find the slaughter of animals for human consumption cruel and inhumaine. I think that is just a difference of opinoin. The fact that some here do find it inhumaine, well that is just a difference we are all going to have to live with.







Flid, some of Stone's facts that s/he provided seemed a bit on the extreem, kind of unbelievable dreampt up hogwash. I could very well be wrong about all of that, but we all know things are not always as they seam. I mean no offence to Stone with any of this, just sorry bud, I find it hard to trust the facts of such a biased website.





`pOp', what do you mean "orgainic meat", you mean like a soy burger or something to that extent?



Here is a real life scenario, my Aunt, is alergic to almost everything. I mean from chocolate, milk, wheat, heck every grain, (except rice, if I remember right)... anyhow her produce options are extreemly limited... if she didnt eat meat, her eating options would be very very very limited...



What say you to this? What advice on having a diet not including meat would you give her?



I hope that leads to a productive discussion, though sorry to jack a thread and it be that off topic, but it kind of fits.

EDITED_BY: Burzaruka (1088295161)


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