Forums > Social Discussion > Thoughts on vegetarianism

So I've now been a vegetarian for almost 3 years. I originally became a vegetarian because I realized I was a meat addict. There are also environmental concerns. Ethical concerns are way down on my list since I find it gets confusing for me to strongly support animal research for medical applications while opposing using animals for food. Especially because I'm not vegan.

But the final decision happened, not coincidentally, on the first day of Gross Anatomy dissection lab.

So after 3 years of almost total abstinence from meat (I'll eat meat if there is no other feasable option), I think I'm pretty much de-addicted. The idea of eating a large steak is just not at all appetizing to me.

BUUUUT, this vegetarian business is getting very inconvenient. It makes people stress over where to go for dinner, or what to cook for me. Furthermore, it significantly limits what I can order at a restaurant, and I can't stand it when the only vegetarian options on a menu feature zucchini and mushrooms (two of my least favorite foods).

So I'm starting to debate whether to de-classify myself as a vegetarian and just carry on with life eating very little meat. And by "very little" I mean less than one serving of meat a week. Since my initial reasons were for health, I don't see how this small amount of meat (which, when consumed, will preferably be organic) would change my risk factors. And such miniscule meat consumption wouldn't have much environmental impact. Besides, I have an unfortunate tendency towards anemia.

What do you think?

-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

Suggest having a cup of chai to revive the spirits.

CU

If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

Are you implying that I want it closed?



Because I've not said anything to suggest that I do.



What I said was that-



Written by: onewheeldave


OK, I think that I've had enough for now











i.e. everyone else is more than welcome to continue, and, when I feel that I can say something useful again, I'll do so.



I'm happy to debate as long as I feel that it's either enjoyable or constructive.



Recently it's been neither; I feel that the main people I'm 'debating' with are primarily interested in debate as conflict/devils advocacy, and that, while they are responding to my posts, they are not putting as much effort into reading them as I would like.



(it goes without saying that I realise they may well feel the same about me, in which case, all the more reason to leave it for a while).



This thread has had its ups and downs, currently IMO its in a hole.



But it's 19 pages long and probably the best HOP vegetarianism thread ever, I'm sure it will pick up again in the near future, and, hopefully, by me stepping out of the current sniping match, it will develop in a more productive direction.



Some new blood would be good

"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

Written by: onewheeldave

I'm happy to debate as long as I feel that it's either enjoyable or constructive.

Recently it's been neither; I feel that the main people I'm 'debating' with are primarily interested in debate as conflict/devils advocacy, and that, while they are responding to my posts, they are not putting as much effort into reading them as I would like.




I've been feeling the same way.

Thanks for contributing, OWD. I hope to see you back here if this thread turns towards being constructive again

"I thought you are man, but
you are nice woman.

yay,

:R"

Cheers Spanner, I appreciate that

And yes, I will definitly be keeping an eye on the thread and will happily join in again when I feel it is appropriate.

"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

If everything seems under control, your not going fast enough!

It's not the size of the wave, it's the length of the ride!

I had a dream that my friend had a
strong-bad pop up book,
it was the book of my dreams.

If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

Written by: TeeJay

When a hen gets old, a rooster too nasty or mean, they end up soup.



This reminds me of a funny moment on Emeril. He was showing how to do a beer-marinated chicken and when he put the chicken in the beer brine, he said, "Now he's happy! When I go, soak me in beer!"

-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

Umm, me guilty of skimming the odd post, never

Ok from the top:

Battery hens are primarily used for egg production, not meat. Even so, it is a misconception to say that their lives are so horrific that they peck at the others and turn cannibal. Pecking, as in pecking order, is a natural occurrence. And birds will peck regardless of their housing arrangements. Not sure about cannibalism, perhaps if a bird dies?

Have you ever been into a cage house to witness the happiness of the birds? I would suggest that the birds are probably a lot happier than a photograph would show. What may seem cruel to you or I, is not necessarily how a bird feels.

In Australia, most livestock is grazed on open pastures (not many feedlots) and I have often thought that domesticated animals have pretty good lives. No stress, with plenty of food and water, grazing under the sun; it�s a cow life.

Meat is a luxury, and I think we are a bit complacent when it comes to acknowledging how our meat is produced, and we eat far too much meat. However, I maintain that a small amount of meat in the diet is important for health. My point here is that meat is necessary because it is a natural source of Vitamin B 12, and it is natural to eat meat.

Contrary to popular belief, while Marmite is a rich source of the vitamin B complex; vitamin B12 is not naturally found in yeast extract, but is added to Marmite during manufacture.

If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

Lightning, if you suggest that Marmite is a natural source of B-12, then u need provide a source.


'Vegans are recommended to ensure their diet includes foods fortified with vitamin B12. A range of B12 fortified foods are available. These include yeast extracts, Vecon vegetable stock, veggieburger mixes, textured vegetable protein, soya milks, vegetable and sunflower margarines, and breakfast cereals." (vegetarian society). Also see other link Marmite for more info on B12 and Marmite.

I�m not arguing for a meat centered diet. I think we eat way too much meat, but I think that including some meat in the diet is acceptable.

I would be very interested in any comments on the following meat based diet, available as a pdf file from this site: CSIRO Total Well Being Diet

If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

Dave, i agree with you 100%.

i became a vegetarian at about 15 years of age. i'm now 34. i also don't eat eggs, as aside from the de-beaking issue, i cannot except the fact that ALL male chicks are suffocated or gassed or ground up (sometimes alive) at a day old.

i'm probably a little overweight for my height, but i eat chocolate almost every day, so i know the cause of it

with the exception of breaking 1 tooth through a fall a number of years ago, my teeth are fine, i DO NOT have 1 filling, nor have i ever had a toothache. (believe me, that's a rarity in a 34 year old)

i do a lot of hiking & trekking at the weekends and am heading off to the himalayas this october. i also practise tai chi & chi gung every day.

i woudn't necessarily call myself a health freak, as i can be as lethargic as the next person from time to time, but i resent being told that eating meat is essential in order to maintain good health!

with regard to longterm consequences, i'd like to give another example.

a friend of mine, who is 37, has been a vegetarian since she was in her mid teens. she met and married a vegetarian, and they have brought up 2 perfectly healthy children on a vegetarian diet. their son is 14, almost 5' 8" in height and plays on nearly every sportsteam at school. as is usual with kids, they will get sick and have to attend the doctor, but never once have my friends been told by their gp that either of their children were lacking in any vitamin or mineral. so i do believe that with a little extra care and attention paid to the foods we eat, meat is not essential in order to maintain good health.

and just to close off, i'd like to clear something up about the vitamin B12 issue.

stone, do you realise that both meateaters and veggies alike obtain most of their vitamin B12 from fortified foodstuffs?

you've made a continuous point that a 'small' amount of meat is naturally required by our bodies as animal products are the only natural source of vitamin B12.

a small amount of meat often doesn't provide you with 100% of the RDA of B12, so you unless you're big into eating liver every day, most non-veggies also obtain most of their vitamin B12 intake from fortified foods such as milk & cornflakes for breakfast

peace & love

Lisa

My mind not only wanders, it sometimes leaves completely

-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

OWD said �Could you reflect on what I'm saying about fudging?�

lol: Dave, read the thread from the beginning and you tell me about fudging. Yes, I�ve picked up a few points along he way. You guys really had me worried with that �morning glory� one. Then, what was that analogy about serving the flesh of humans in restaurants. The infamous black and white photos. Or all the other religious, emotive and unscientific arguments presented to justify your cause. Bottom line: I am not a cannibal and I do have the right to speak on injustice.

Faberge, I got my info on B12 from the vegetarian society ie. reliable unfortified sources of vitamin B12 are meat, dairy products and eggs. Yes a small point, and perhaps less relevant now than in a previous discussion on the origins of omnivores/carnivores. However, the point shows that humans need animal products to satisfy their dietary requirements, without supplements. Might I also remind people that �battery houses� are used for egg production, as this is another emotive card that is often played indiscriminatively.

By my calculations you would probably need to eat about 10 - 50 g of Marmite a day to satisfy the B 12 requirement.
Vit B 12 requirement for teenagers & adults (1.2 - 1.5ug/day)
Yeast extracts contains b/t 2 - 50ug/100g B 12.

A bit of history. �Vegetarianism is not new. The word "vegetarian" was invented in 19th century. Early Greek thinkers advocated a vegetarian diet in reaction to over-indulgence in animal flesh and wine. Excesses finally gave birth to the vegetarian movement in both Greece and Rome. Pythagoras (6th century B.C.) argued for vegetarianism on the basis of transmigration of souls between humans and animals. Plato (5th-4th centuries B.C.) drew sharp distinction between the rational soul of humans and appetitive soul of animals and claimed that superior rational humans naturally rule over inferior appetitive animals. He characterized animal existence as "beastly", sexually wanton, lawless, murderous, and warlike, but was sympathetic to vegetarianism as an ideal. Aristotle (4th century B.C.) claimed that animals with a lower type (sensitive) soul are meant to serve the purposes of humans, who have a higher type (rational) soul. This idea has heavily influenced to the present day a Western anthropocentric view of animals (Magel 1989)�. [South Dakota Uni

If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura