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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:So I've now been a vegetarian for almost 3 years. I originally became a vegetarian because I realized I was a meat addict. There are also environmental concerns. Ethical concerns are way down on my list since I find it gets confusing for me to strongly support animal research for medical applications while opposing using animals for food. Especially because I'm not vegan.

But the final decision happened, not coincidentally, on the first day of Gross Anatomy dissection lab. ubblol

So after 3 years of almost total abstinence from meat (I'll eat meat if there is no other feasable option), I think I'm pretty much de-addicted. The idea of eating a large steak is just not at all appetizing to me.

BUUUUT, this vegetarian business is getting very inconvenient. It makes people stress over where to go for dinner, or what to cook for me. Furthermore, it significantly limits what I can order at a restaurant, and I can't stand it when the only vegetarian options on a menu feature zucchini and mushrooms (two of my least favorite foods).

So I'm starting to debate whether to de-classify myself as a vegetarian and just carry on with life eating very little meat. And by "very little" I mean less than one serving of meat a week. Since my initial reasons were for health, I don't see how this small amount of meat (which, when consumed, will preferably be organic) would change my risk factors. And such miniscule meat consumption wouldn't have much environmental impact. Besides, I have an unfortunate tendency towards anemia.

What do you think?


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Twirly


Twirly

Shoryuken!
Location: Hexham, Newcastle, England

Total posts: 233
Posted:Written by:

Written by: nilid
All I was asking for was the reason for the differentiation you've made between dumb humans and dumb animals.



Think you just answered your own question nilid69. Humans possess language skills a conscience, intelligence and rational thought. And a soul.



Hey, I said dumb humans. We were talking about the extremely mentally handicapped remember? ie humans which don't possess language skills, a conscience, intelligence and rational thought. Maybe they possess a soul, but those don't exist :P
So no, I didn't.

Anyway, I'm tired of this. OWD is saying the same thing over and over again, and instead of anyone addressing it head on, we're just going off on little tangents addressing points that, when it comes down to it, are quite irrelevant.

Eating beefs causes unneccessary loss and suffering. Whether people give enough of a shit to care is something only they can decide.

Respect,
Davy


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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:Written by: onewheeldave

You seem to be hinting at some special characteristic of humans that absolves them from the abuse we put on animals.



As opposed to, say, bears? They're omnivores, too. We don't judge them for eating meat.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield

Total posts: 3252
Posted:I'm doing my best here, but I'm really coming to feel that you're not wanting to get to the heart of this.



I'll make you a deal- answer this fundamental question, which, as Davy points out is basically the only thing I've been saying for the past 18 pages: -



Do you (lightning, or maybe stone would like to answer as well), consider it wrong to cause unnecessary suffering, pain and loss to sentient (ie includes animals) beings.



A simple yes or no would be great.



If you do that then I'll tell exactly why IMO it's perfectly ok for bears to eat meat, and why, even if it wasn't, that would not be relevant to the issue of whether it's ok for humans to eat meat, and even whether I consider humans to be superior to animals.



But, if you're not willing to answer that question, then I don't think we can proceed any further.



I hope you do have sufficient respect for me that you will give an answer, as I've put a lot into this thread, mostly focused on that simple and, I hope, reasonably succinctly stated point of view- to continue I really need to know whether you agree or disagree with it.



My perception at this moment is that you're just coming up with side issues, none of which stand up to even a rudimentary examination; and I'm really finding it hard to believe that someone of your intelligence can actually be sincere in putting them forward.



That's just my perception, please don't take offence. If you address the above question it'd be great, but if not then I can't see much point me continuing to discuss this.

EDITED_BY: onewheeldave (1089823749)


"You can't outrun Death forever.
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"Last of The Lancers"
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...{SAFE}...


...{SAFE}...

"if i jump in the fire, will you?"
Location: USA, wishing I was in SA

Total posts: 633
Posted:Thoughts on vegetarianism


"dont do it"


i like breaking the Law frown , of Gravity wink !

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Spanner
BRONZE Member since Feb 2003

Spanner

remembers when it was all fields round here
Location: in the works... somewhere...

Total posts: 2790
Posted:All I have to say, is that this:

"Most vegetarians over sensationalise their arguments, and claim the high moral ground, as if their arguments are divinely inspired and therefore truth can be dismissed."

is like saying:

"most carnivores and omnivores make mass generalisations."

wink


"I thought you are man, but
you are nice woman.

yay,

:R"

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:Unnecessary suffering and waste is bad, of course.

What's "necessary?" Some would argue that medical research is unnecessary.

Some would argue that they'd just die without their leather Gucci purse. Go figure. *shrug*


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne

Total posts: 2830
Posted:Perhaps u did nilid69, but thats not a good example because id people may make up like 0.0001% percent of the population, where as all animals are dumb. But to answer your question, even id people are Homo sapiens, ie. Humans are a different species. Hows you cat?

OWD, I do consider it wrong to cause unnecessary suffering, pain and loss to sentient beings. However it depends on what u call unnecessary pain, and thats where we differ. I expect its due to my farm background. Mulesing for example, has the animal libbers up in arms, but trust me, its better than a fly blown sheep. And I dont consider it cruel to use prey animals as food, provided they well cared for and are killed painlessly. We all die you know. Some would consider it preferable to have a short sweet life, compared to a long painful one with all the miseries of growing old. Only the good die young.

Spanner, not really. If you look back through the 14 pages u will c many examples of sensationalism and inaccuracies used by vegetarians to gain the high moral ground. The black and white photos are a good example. Calling people cannibals and rapists is another.

Just to deviating to the fish shop example. Ive had bad experiences where vegetarians expect preferential treatment, oblivious to everyone else. Say a bus load of tourists get off a bus at a fast food shop and the first person at the counter take 15-20 minutes to order because they insist on asking the cook about the meat content of every product, while 30 hungry tourists mutter inexplicable things about vegetarians. Same in restaurants, a vegetarian goes into a Texas steak house and starts complaining because people are eating meat. These types of actions do more harm than good.

However, to answer your original allergy question. I doubt that a vegetarian would die if they ate a small amount of meat, where as an allergy sufferer could quite possible die if they ate food with say nuts in it. I think as consumers, its up to us to know whats in products, especially if we have special dietary requirements, and food places cater for vegetarians.

Just on the cooking oil and chips. Good chips are cooked in oil twice, places like Mc Donalds used to pre-cooked chips in animal oils, and then send them to their outlets where they were cooked again in vegetable oil. This got them into much trouble, as they claimed their fries were suitable for vegetarians.


smile


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield

Total posts: 3252
Posted:Written by: There is no "e" in "Lightning"


What's "necessary?" Some would argue that medical research is unnecessary.

Some would argue that they'd just die without their leather Gucci purse. Go figure. *shrug*


We don't need to worry about what's necessary and medical research etc (to answer the specifc question Iasked above).

The question is about unnecessary (pain, suffering and loss).

Eating of meat, for the majority of humans is unnecessary; in the few instances where it is medically necessary to eat meat, then I'm not going to argue that it is wrong to do so.

======================


Written by: There is no "e" in "Lightning"

Unnecessary suffering and waste is bad, of course.



Like you say, of course unnecessary pain and waste is bad.

However the question I asked was not the one you've just answered: -

Do you (lightning, or maybe stone would like to answer as well), consider it wrong to cause unnecessary suffering, pain and loss to sentient (ie includes animals) beings.

It's very specific; it may be short but I put a lot of thought into wording it so it was both concise and not open to too many side issues.

Significantly it includes 'cause' (i.e. causing pain and suffering being wrong- rather than simply pain and suffering itself being bad

Can I assume that your answer to my question is 'yes'?


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield

Total posts: 3252
Posted:Written by: Stone


OWD, I do consider it wrong to cause unnecessary suffering, pain and loss to sentient beings. However it depends on what u call unnecessary pain, and thats where we differ.



I call the killing of an animal purely so it's flesh can be eaten, unnecessary.

The vast majority of humans do not need to eat flesh to survive and live fit, healthy lives. That is why I consider the pain, loss and suffering of meat animals to be unnecessary.

And the reason I ensure that i'm using the phrase 'pain, loss and suffering' is to cover some of the examples you've come up with, such as that of killing animals painlessly.

Now, given that you agree with me that it is 'wrong to cause unnecessary suffering, pain and loss to sentient beings'

how do you reconcile that with your belief that it is right to kill and eat animals?


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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_pOp_
BRONZE Member since Mar 2017

Playing OldSchool Poi
Location: amsterdam

Total posts: 593
Posted:Written by: Stone


Say a bus load of tourists get off a bus at a fast food shop and the first person at the counter take 15-20 minutes to order because they insist on asking the cook about the meat content of every product, while 30 hungry tourists mutter inexplicable things about vegetarians. Same in restaurants, a vegetarian goes into a Texas steak house and starts complaining because people are eating meat.







and then take the example of the old lady who hasn't been used to plastic money yet, she spends a good time looking through her purse to find the credit card, then tries to figure out what her PIN code is, and takes another long time to punch the right buttons, and on top of it start complaining about being underdealt her saving coupons...



did you get the point of this story?

no? good, at least I made as much sense as you did in your post.



oh, and a vegetarian would not set foot in a stake house because he would know the choices of getting a decent meal would be zero.



meditate eRic.

I'm not normally a religious man, but if you're up there, save me, Superman!

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Spanner
BRONZE Member since Feb 2003

Spanner

remembers when it was all fields round here
Location: in the works... somewhere...

Total posts: 2790
Posted:Written by: Stone

Spanner, not really. If you look back through the 14 pages u will c many examples of sensationalism and inaccuracies used by vegetarians to gain the high moral ground.




Many examples - but not many vegetarians in comparison.

Written by:

Just to deviating to the fish shop example. Ive had bad experiences where vegetarians expect preferential treatment, oblivious to everyone else. Say a bus load of tourists get off a bus at a fast food shop and the first person at the counter take 15-20 minutes to order because they insist on asking the cook about the meat content of every product, while 30 hungry tourists mutter inexplicable things about vegetarians.




Wanting to know what's in your food isn't asking for preferential treatment! ubblol

You've had more bad experiences than good. I've had more good experiences than bad. Surely you don't think that you experiences alone can be extrapolated to the rest of the world?

Written by:
Same in restaurants, a vegetarian goes into a Texas steak house



Is this a joke? "A teetotal walks into a bar - ouch!", kind of thing? wink

Written by:
and starts complaining because people are eating meat. These types of actions do more harm than good.



I would tend to agree with you that it would do more harm than good, but again you say *a* vegetarian...

Written by:
I doubt that a vegetarian would die if they ate a small amount of meat, where as an allergy sufferer could quite possible die if they ate food with say nuts in it.



It is possible to be allergic to meat. I've been allergic to ham since infant school, years before I became vegetarian.

Written by:
I think as consumers, its up to us to know whats in products, especially if we have special dietary requirements, and food places cater for vegetarians.



So...how do we as consumers find out without asking? confused

Do you feel threatened by vegetarianism, Stone? Following your line of debate, I'm asking seriously. I'd genuinely be interested to know, despite thinking that it would be quite an unorthodox phobia to have.

Here's a nice story for you. On Tuesday, at a spin, I met someone who is studying gamekeeping and management. He seemed very apologetic about it on hearing that I was vegetarian, yet I didn't let his chosen profession cloud my judgement of him and he followed suit regarding my dietary choice. We managed to discuss the issues quite civilly and proportionally. So I think it's a shame that you have such a low view on most vegetarians and that you assume that vegetarians will be equally as difficult smile


"I thought you are man, but
you are nice woman.

yay,

:R"

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:Well, then of course unnecessary pain and suffering is bad.

If we're not worrying about what "unnecessary" means, then where, exactly, are we going?

And why are we in this handbasket? wink


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield

Total posts: 3252
Posted:I'm not asking if unnecessary pain and suffering is bad.



I'm asking if causing unnecessay pain, loss and suffering to sentient beings is wrong



Like I said before, I can't go further unless you reply 'yes' or 'no' to that question.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:Ok, then if unnecessary pain=bad, then causing it=bad=wrong.

Does this handbasket come with bucket seats?


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne

Total posts: 2830
Posted:Spanner wanting to know what's in your food isn't asking for preferential treatment. But being arrogant and a pain in the bum is. Unfortunately, people remember bad experiences and forget the good ones. Why dont u take along gas chromatograph when u go shopping if you feel that strongly about it. There are times and places for most things, making a stand for vegetarianism in a fish shop, is not one of them.

Hadnt heard about the ham.

Do I feel threatened by vegetarianism? No, I hadnt even considered it. I do however, feel threatened when people lie and manipulate the facts to suite their own purpose. So to re-cap my objections:

Written by:
Stone said earlier: I also disagree with the way the case for vegetarianism has been argued. Personally, I take umbrage when people use religious, emotive and unscientific arguments to justify their cause. I think these types of arguments also undermine the credibility of vegetarianism, and do much to detract from what is obviously a good and healthy way to live.
So for example, don't:
Tell me vegetarianism is a Buddhism philosophy, when that is not strictly true (religious).
Tell me I'm a really a herbivore, when we (as a species) are obviously omnivores (scientific/evolutionary).
Make me feel guilty by humanising things, and telling me I'm a cannibal and I'm eating corpses (emotive)




Hi pOp, speaking for all vegetarians now are we? Unfortunately thems real life experiences, mate.



OWD, I will say it again. OWD I do consider it wrong to cause unnecessary suffering, pain and loss to sentient beings


wink


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield

Total posts: 3252
Posted:Written by: Stone



OWD, I will say it again. OWD I do consider it wrong to cause unnecessary suffering, pain and loss to sentient beings


wink

Cheers Stone.

If so, then how do you reconcile that with your belief that it is OK to kill and eat anmials?

Because animals are sentient beings, and killing them to eat their flesh is causing them loss (of life) and generally pain/suffering.

I know they can be killed painlessly, but, being realistic, many aren't.

But, pain aside- loss is definitly being caused.

Given that you believe it's wrong to cause unnecessary pain, loss and suffering to sentient beings, then how can you consider it right to take an animals life in order to eat it's flesh, when eating flesh is not necessary for you to live a healthy life.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

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"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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_pOp_
BRONZE Member since Mar 2017

Playing OldSchool Poi
Location: amsterdam

Total posts: 593
Posted:Written by: Stone


Unfortunately, people remember bad experiences and forget the good ones.





Written by: Stone


Hi pOp, speaking for all vegetarians now are we?







ehrm, speaking for all vegetarians? no, I thought you were the one generalizing...

I think it's pretty sad that you think people remember bad experiences rather that the good ones, and I feel sorry for you if you do (and I don't say this to mock you, seriously). I recently split up with my girlfriend, because being together didn't do either of us any good anymore. now, only 3 weeks down the road, I can't even remember the bad times we had. only the good. and this line of thought happens with all my experiences in live: I really live for the good memories and put the bad away because the are the past.

no wonder that you take such a hard stance against people here, you must be filled with bad memories about everything and a very bitter person as such.

seriously, forget about it, it's much better to remember the good than the bad.


meditate eRic.

I'm not normally a religious man, but if you're up there, save me, Superman!

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charsfs


charsfs

journeyman
Location: Southampton, uk

Total posts: 53
Posted:When i say i`m a vegetarian I feel like I have to explain my reasons,
because well... soapbox

At 14 I had so many daily dietary problems
because I unknowingly was allergic to most red meats,
so out goes the meat I felt loads better.

It was my choice to give up meat,
because I couldn`t function normally if I ate meat.

Was my choice a right or wrong one?
I still can`t decide that after 20 years.

Sometimes I have meat because I miss it,
it still has the same affect on me is it worth it?
confused help confused2


Drinking wine, eating cheese, catching some rays, yunno.

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:Written by:
how do you reconcile that with your belief that it is right to kill and eat animals?



I don't. Because I'm not sure what constitutes "necessary." Humanity did just fine before medicine came along, although people didn't live very long. Life was brutal, nasty, and short. But medicine isn't "necessary." So on one extreme, I could argue that even animal research isn't necessary.

As I've said before, my way of dealing with this is that I consume very little meat. I gave up vegetarianism because it was a pain in the arse, not because I want to eat meat. Since I "officially" dropped vegetarianism, I've had fish on three occasions and one bite of someone's Tandoori Chicken (which was nummy smile ). That's been two months now. I'm still vegetarian over 95% of the time.

Frankly, I'd be perfectly happy if people stopped eating meat altogether. My solution is that I will not order meat in a restaurant, I will not buy it in a store, and I will not keep it in my house. However, if I am a guest of someone else and they've already bought the meat, I'm not doing anyone any favors by refusing to eat it. Similarly, in other countries where animals are treated differently, or where vegetarianism is simply not culturally endemic, I prefer to go with the flow rather than be so arrogant as to impose my cultural values on them.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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_pOp_
BRONZE Member since Mar 2017

Playing OldSchool Poi
Location: amsterdam

Total posts: 593
Posted:Written by: There is no "e" in "Lightning"


Similarly, in other countries where animals are treated differently, or where vegetarianism is simply not culturally endemic, I prefer to go with the flow rather than be so arrogant as to impose my cultural values on them.





???? how would you impose that on them?



any person from any culture anywhere will ask questions about food in a restaurant...

if you are in paris confronted with a french menu, you want to know what a "croque monsieur" is before ordering it (it's a tosti).



that is not imposing arrogant values on somebody, that's just how it works.


meditate eRic.

I'm not normally a religious man, but if you're up there, save me, Superman!

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:When I go to visit another country, I am there to experience the culture...and part of that is the cuisine.

-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield

Total posts: 3252
Posted:What if you visited a country whose culture was racist, or homophobic; would you be concerned about offending your hosts then?

"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

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"Last of The Lancers"
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_pOp_
BRONZE Member since Mar 2017

Playing OldSchool Poi
Location: amsterdam

Total posts: 593
Posted:Written by: There is no "e" in "Lightning"

When I go to visit another country, I am there to experience the culture...and part of that is the cuisine.


yes, me too. but even you would ask what something is that you don't know the name of..

eric.


meditate eRic.

I'm not normally a religious man, but if you're up there, save me, Superman!

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:Right. But chances are I'll eat it. I've even eaten escargots once (and never again). When traveling, I'll try almost anything once... Including roast caterpillar. (Witchetty grub I tried when I was in Oz)

-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Xopher (aka Mr. Clean)


enthusiast
Location: Hoboken, New Jersey, USA

Total posts: 456
Posted:I understand that in India, it's usually sufficient to say "In my caste we don't eat the head of the chicken" or whatever the repellent delicacy is. In the Gaeltocht of Ireland (again, I'm told) the phrase ta geas a me (roughly "I'm not allowed to do that") will deflect attempts to get one to eat things inappropriate to one's diet.

Unlike Lightning, I'm disinclined to abandon my dietary restrictions when visiting another culture. (If I were doing anthropological fieldwork, that would be another story; I'd eat whatever they ate. One reason I'm not a cultural anthropologist, actually.) But there are probably culturally appropriate ways of letting your hosts know what you do and do not eat without offending them.


"If you didn't like something the first time, the cud won't be any good either." --Elsie the Cow, Ruminations

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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne

Total posts: 2830
Posted:I try to answer some of your questions OWD, even if I dont think we will agree.

Written by:
So, then how do you reconcile that with your belief that it is OK to kill and eat animals? Because animals are sentient beings, and killing them to eat their flesh is causing them loss (of life) and generally pain/suffering. I know they can be killed painlessly, but, being realistic, many aren't. But, pain aside- loss is definitly being caused. Given that you believe it's wrong to cause unnecessary pain, loss and suffering to sentient beings, then how can you consider it right to take an animals life in order to eat it's flesh, when eating flesh is not necessary for you to live a healthy life.



OWD, I dont consider the killing animals for food unnecessary, though perhaps a luxury. I think most people would consider a portion of meat to be an important part of a balanced diet. While you say its easy to become a vegetarian, that doesnt explain the fact that, as pointed out previously, many people especially young women become anaemic on a veg diet. Historically, people forced to live on a staple of vegies suffered from malnutrition, and I have always thought that eating a small amount of meat was a part of the natural process (food chain if you like).

Ok, Ill have a go at the pain issue. Its a tricky one because I run the risk of people thinking I even more uncaring than they already do, when Im just being realistic and pragmatic about the way humankind herds animals. I think this sentence thing is a bit misleading because it implies that all animals experience pain in the same way. Now, Im getting into the area of speculation because I dont know that much about animal physiology. But Im sure there are differences in the nervous systems and pain thresholds between different species of animals. I dont believe for a minute that a fish feels pain in the same way as a human. I dont see how a fish could experience loss, as they spawn rather than mate. I think cows and many other warm blooded animals experience loss at weaning, but thats a process we all go through. I have worked with cows, and Im sure their feelings of pain are different to humans. From my observations, any pain is soon forgotten in the same way that young males forget about the pain of circumcision, And, as far as loss goes, we all die eventually.

IMO, many of the arguments against eating meat are based on humanising animals, and I think thats nave. I can understand how people living in big cities have lost contact with animals, except their pets (slaves) and are prone to humanising all animals. Another way at looking at the humanising animals is to see how people react with wild animals. I use to live near a National Park, and tourists would inevitably try to pat the kangaroos or try to pick up the cute cuddly koala bear. Then, shock horror, they would wonder what happened when they get the [censored] kicked out of them. Too much Disney, and they didnt realise they were dealing with a wild animal. There were lulled into a false sense of security because they were thinking of Bambi instead of a wild ferocious animal, as you are with domesticated animals.

pOp, re the example of the old lady with plastic card. Yes, Ive seen this, and yes unfortunately ageism is common. However, she is not standing on a soap box, perhaps thats the difference.

pOp, it might be sad that people remember bad experiences rather that the good ones, but thats reality. Perhaps Im wrong, but I doubt many would argue against the saying that people generally remember the bad over the good. Note - that is a generalisation. Im not saying I only remember the bad. Im saying that as a society, we tend to remember the bad things people do rather than the good they do.

I know I have taken an unpopular view, but Im not gong to apologise for disagreeing with you. If you think Ive been hard, then look back at all the things Ive let slide. I mean you even dug up a two year old thread from another forum and posted it here; and the information was inaccurate. Do you call everyone that disagrees with you, bitter? And if you look back through the pages you will see many examples of sensationalism and inaccuracies used by vegetarians to gain the high moral ground.



wave


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:Aren't luxuries by definition unnecessary?

I'm not the devil, just his advocate. biggrin


-Mike )'(
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"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield

Total posts: 3252
Posted:Written by: Stone






OWD, I dont consider the killing animals for food unnecessary, though perhaps a luxury. I think most people would consider a portion of meat to be an important part of a balanced diet. While you say its easy to become a vegetarian, that doesnt explain the fact that, as pointed out previously, many people especially young women become anaemic on a veg diet. Historically, people forced to live on a staple of vegies suffered from malnutrition, and I have always thought that eating a small amount of meat was a part of the natural process (food chain if you like).





If you really believe that a vegetarian diet is nutritionally insufficient for health, then I can understand why you're into meat.



But it's been established that, for the vast majority of people, a vegetarian diet is not only sufficent for health, but considerably safer (in terms of cancer risk, heart disease etc) than a diet with a high proportion of meat.



Maybe you'd like to post links to some of the historical malnutrition issues, then I can address them.



Certainly it's possible to suffer malnutrition on a bad vegetarian diet, just as it is on a bad meat-containing diet.



Given that meat is generally more expensive/harder to obtain in times of famine, historically many cultures suffering malnutrition will be on a vegetarian diet- but their ill health is due to famine, rather than a cause of being vegetarian. If they were eating a good vegetarian diet, there'd be no problem.

EDITED_BY: onewheeldave (1090087208)


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne

Total posts: 2830
Posted:Yes, the devils advocate has a point . I should have been more specific. I think, I meant that killing of animals for meat could be considered a luxury. In that we consume much more than we actually need. eek now I'm confused

Just clarifying a few issues for OWD:

Written by:
If you really believe that a vegetarian diet is nutritionally insufficient for health, then I can understand why you're into meat.



I said most people think a portion of meat is important for a balanced diet. You only have to look at the size of meat section at the Supermarket to see that.

Written by:
But it's been established that, for the vast majority of people, a vegetarian diet is not only sufficient for health, but considerably safer (in terms of cancer risk, heart disease etc) than a diet with a high proportion of meat.



Been established by whom??? You probably need to qualify that statement with a source. I would be interested to know when the research was undertaken, the quantities of meat involved, the criteria for the control group, and if the research was short term or long term. Perhaps the question to ask is a diet with a high proportion of meat healthier than a diet with a small/balanced portion, compared to a vegetarian diet?

Written by:
Maybe you'd like to post links to some of the historical malnutrition issues, then I can address them.



It was a general comment and easy to check, like pottage and dhal being poor mans meat.

Written by:
Certainly it's possible to suffer malnutrition on a bad vegetarian diet, just as it is on a bad meat-containing diet.



Yes, but I would suspect that the risk of malnutrition is higher if meat is absent from the diet. Like you need to eat a vast quantity of spinach compared to meat, to obtain a similar amount of iron. What did the proxy poster say - people who eat meat are lazy, which is probably true. And having meat in the diet makes it easy to get the necessary protein and nutrients in a small convenient package.

Written by:
Given that meat is generally more expensive/harder to obtain in times of famine, historically many cultures suffering malnutrition will be on a vegetarian diet- but their ill health is due to famine, rather than a cause of being vegetarian. If they were eating a good vegetarian diet, there'd be no problem.



Historically, I suspect people did not know the criteria for a good vegetarian diet. Also the vast array of vegetarian products available today, were probably not available then, and meat was an important source of protein and other nutrients. Even today the world is protein poor.


smile


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield

Total posts: 3252
Posted:OK, I think I've had enough for now smile



Time to take the advice I gave to someone else several pages back and stick to discussing this with people who are genuinely interested in considering switching to vegetarianism.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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