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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:So I've now been a vegetarian for almost 3 years. I originally became a vegetarian because I realized I was a meat addict. There are also environmental concerns. Ethical concerns are way down on my list since I find it gets confusing for me to strongly support animal research for medical applications while opposing using animals for food. Especially because I'm not vegan.

But the final decision happened, not coincidentally, on the first day of Gross Anatomy dissection lab. ubblol

So after 3 years of almost total abstinence from meat (I'll eat meat if there is no other feasable option), I think I'm pretty much de-addicted. The idea of eating a large steak is just not at all appetizing to me.

BUUUUT, this vegetarian business is getting very inconvenient. It makes people stress over where to go for dinner, or what to cook for me. Furthermore, it significantly limits what I can order at a restaurant, and I can't stand it when the only vegetarian options on a menu feature zucchini and mushrooms (two of my least favorite foods).

So I'm starting to debate whether to de-classify myself as a vegetarian and just carry on with life eating very little meat. And by "very little" I mean less than one serving of meat a week. Since my initial reasons were for health, I don't see how this small amount of meat (which, when consumed, will preferably be organic) would change my risk factors. And such miniscule meat consumption wouldn't have much environmental impact. Besides, I have an unfortunate tendency towards anemia.

What do you think?


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Tao Star


Tao Star

Pooh-Bah
Location: Bristol

Total posts: 1662
Posted:i live in london!

I had a dream that my friend had a
strong-bad pop up book,
it was the book of my dreams.

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Faberg
GOLD Member since Aug 2003

veteran
Location: Dublin, Ireland

Total posts: 1459
Posted:Written by: Tao Star

i know it's not quite all that simple, but i basically only eat meat and stuff from my friends' farms, so i know they've just been running round a field their whole life.



well if you live in london yet manage to be supplied with true (& fresh) organic foodstuffs from friends farms where you know the score, then you should count yourself very lucky smile

but i'd say you'd be an exception to the rule. most city folk are not so privileged.

i truely beleived for years that i was doing the right thing by buying free range eggs, only to find out a year ago that most free range hens have their beaks chopped off when they're a couple of days old!

for a lot of people, especially if ethics are involved, cutting out the products altogether makes for less hassle than the amount of research needed to ascertain just how organic/free range animal based products actually are.


My mind not only wanders, it sometimes leaves completely smile

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flid
BRONZE Member since Aug 2002

flid

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Warwickshire

Total posts: 3136
Posted:that's cool. The stand point that i've always taken is that some is better than nothing. As people have pointed out in this thread, nothing is black and white (except OWD's infamous photos smile), and sensational claims only impress people looking for shock appeal as opposed to anyone seriously investigating facts. Lightening also mentioned that you can't draw a definitive line. I agree, we don't have the conclusive science at the moment (and may never do without intivention from 'god') to clear up many factors on what is morally right, whether animals feel pain, whether any other humans other than myself feel pain/exist. Everyone in activism has to be able to draw their own line, and be willing to modify it as they progress through life and learn more - in both directions. You'll meet few vegans (I've yet to meet any) who live to the ideal of 'no animal products', it's simply not feasible by my standards in the UK. Do I refuse to stand on woolen carpets? I'm happy with my line, i think it's realistic, but i modify it all the time. I've a list of companies which I boycott for various reasons, but the list shrinks as companies clean up their act as well as growing. I personally can't wait for concrete scientific proof or god to come down and clear up the matter of whether animals are vegetables or not, because I gave up animals products because I found it morally wrong, not because I didn't like KFC. If it happens, then I'll adjust my line, but until then I can't see myself ever being non vegan again.



There's been talk of converting too. I don't believe in doing this, I merely offer the oppertunatey for anyone to find out more about my views and what I've learnt if they want to and I have the time free to do so. The only time i'll intervine is if people are talking blatent crap infront of my face (hamburgers grow in hamburger fields etc), in any direction whether pro or anti. I wouldn't want to be brainwashed into anything myself, I hate it when people ring my doorbell to give me a message from Jesus as much as anyone. But volunatry discussion, in an appropriate place, which you can choose to participate in or not is great, and I'm liking this thread. As I said in my post before the weekend, I respect the views of anyone who has thought them through properly, farmers, pro war lobby etc included, so I can listen to what they have to say, try and understand their view point and maybe modify my line if they have something to say that I haven't heard before. I have however, heard a LOT of unthought through arguments/sensational 'facts' both against and for vegetarianism over the years, which is why i take a side step from most conversations these days.


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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield

Total posts: 3252
Posted:Written by: Stone

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Written by:</font><hr />
Some of the people on this thread are beyond reach; like I said above, don't waste time trying if it's causing stress, save it for those who are emotionally capable of empathising with beings of a different species



Well I find that a bit condescending, if not openly rude.


frown frown frown


Apologies if anyone found it rude, it certainly wasn't my intention.

Dentrassis's right, it wasn't meant to be judgemental.

At least two of the people concerned have openly stated that they simply don't care much about aniaml welfare, so I don't think they'll feel insulted by me saying that they lack the capacity for empathy with animals.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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Spanner
BRONZE Member since Feb 2003

Spanner

remembers when it was all fields round here
Location: in the works... somewhere...

Total posts: 2790
Posted:Blimey - is this one still going? ubblol

Written by:
I think it is a real invasion to expect some poor chip cook to have to get the oil can so every vegetarian that walks in to the shop can read the label before the buy a dollars worth of chips. That's just being arrogant!



It's simply a case of the consumer wanting to know what's in the food before buying it. If someone with food intolerance wanted to be certain of what was in the food they were about to buy, would that be arrogant? I don't see why ethical reasons should be any different.

If the seller uses animal product or refuses to confirm the ingredients, they may find they lose business at the expected point of sale. So, would it be easier to give customers access to ingredient information, or to lose money?

Anyway, the example of fetching an oil can is laying it on a bit thick. The ingredients could easily be noted down/photocopied and kept by the counter smile


"I thought you are man, but
you are nice woman.

yay,

:R"

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_pOp_
BRONZE Member since Aug 2003

Playing OldSchool Poi
Location: amsterdam

Total posts: 593
Posted:mad HEY!!!!!

I ask to see the oil tin whenever I go into a chipper I don't know...
AND I check if they don't fry meat products in the same fryer!

(but nobody here would be surprised that I do, now would you?)

eric.


meditate eRic.

I'm not normally a religious man, but if you're up there, save me, Superman!

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polythene


veteran
Location: London/ Surrey

Total posts: 1359
Posted:Re-read, pop... Spanner was being supportive of the right to ask to see it smile

The optimist claims that we are living in the best of all possible worlds.
The pessimist fears this is true.

Always make time to play in the snow.

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Twirly


Twirly

Shoryuken!
Location: Hexham, Newcastle, England

Total posts: 233
Posted:Glad you liked the thread p0p. Yeah anywoo, Rhys is one of the most clued in guys I've had the opportunity to chat with, he deals with stuff brilliantly.

Typically, after 2 years or so of existence, that thread has just been deleted cos it hadn't been bumped recently enough, so I think that the quote from you there is all thats left.

keep it real peeps. D


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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:Written by:
"The digestion of proteins in the human stomach is accomplished by the aid of the enzyme, pepsin, which is most active at a highly acidic pH (~2). Natural carnivores do not chew their flesh into small pieces, they just tear it into chunks small enough to be swallowed, and rely on their highly specialized digestive system to do its work. Snakes, many birds, and many fish swallow their prey whole. Since humans have protein specific digestive juices that are about one-tenth as concentrated as those of natural carnivores, this means that the digestion of flesh would proceed one-tenth as fast, and therefore take ten times as long to be completed. Humans, therefore, simply do not have the natural apparatus necessary to properly digest concentrated proteins, and thus do not thoroughly digest concentrated proteins from any source (meats, poultry, fish, eggs, cheeses, beans, nuts, seeds, "seed cheese", tofu, texturized vegetable protein, etc.). Since humans cannot properly digest concentrated proteins, these rot and putrefy in the intestines producing the characteristic "rotten egg" odor of hydrogen sulfide, H2S. This is produced by the putrefaction of sulphur containing amino acids. H2S is one of the most toxic gases known and produces the characteristic odor of flatulence. The well know effects of eating "beans, beans, the musical fruit ..." are ample and undeniable evidence that cooked, concentrated proteins are not digestible by the human.




I just feel a need to say here...

Um...no.

This is why I hate armchair science. Like the Bible, it can be used to defend any position if you BS it enough. But unlike the Bible, it's actually pretty concrete and straightforward if you have a proper scientific education.

As I've said, there are many great reasons to be a vegetarian. This isn't one of them.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Dentrassi
GOLD Member since Apr 2003

Dentrassi

ZORT!
Location: Brisbane

Total posts: 3044
Posted:ha! i agree! basically this theory relies on a single calculation and a whole mass of assumptions! the one-tenth things is wonderfully simple... but the rest is merely qualitative bullsh*t that glosses over any evidence quite smoothly....

if this was any sort if scientific paper you would get crucified by a swarm of aged academics


"Here kitty kitty...." - Schroedinger.

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:Screw the aged academics. You'd come out of it with a "conspiracy theory" being your only defense. No qualified scientist would buy this. It's a bunch of pseudo-scientific rubbish meant to fool those who don't have degrees in science and it's downright dishonest.

-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Dentrassi
GOLD Member since Apr 2003

Dentrassi

ZORT!
Location: Brisbane

Total posts: 3044
Posted:ubblol i think you missed my point... but oh well.....

*wanders off to technical section...*


"Here kitty kitty...." - Schroedinger.

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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne

Total posts: 2830
Posted:Me laying it on a bit thick, coughcough, I don't think so. Don't suppose u have had to work in a poorly paid chip shop, either.



Animal fats are solid at room temperature. Suggest if it's an oil, it would be probably be palm or a canola type.



Suggest a photocopy would not ummm satisfy, some people wink

EDITED_BY: Stone (1088569136)


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Tao Star


Tao Star

Pooh-Bah
Location: Bristol

Total posts: 1662
Posted:so if we're not natural carnivores - what is the explination for us having 'meat teeth'? Maybe we're just different.

(not having a go, just asking! smile)


I had a dream that my friend had a
strong-bad pop up book,
it was the book of my dreams.

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Xopher (aka Mr. Clean)


enthusiast
Location: Hoboken, New Jersey, USA

Total posts: 456
Posted:The stuff about the morning erection being due to constipation is nonsense too. When I was a kid it was attributed to a full bladder, but that's also been debunked. IIRC it has more to do with the brain being awakened out of Stage 4 sleep; a full bladder is one of the things that can wake you up, but isn't the cause, and neither is constipation.

Yes, brothers, you're popping rods all night long - or you're not getting any real sleep, since erections are very typically associated with Stage 4 sleep. Or so they told me when I asked about some of the sensors for my sleep study a number of years ago. The "morning wood" means you woke up suddenly, and that's all.

Let's leave the junk science to the right-wing loonie toons, shall we?


"If you didn't like something the first time, the cud won't be any good either." --Elsie the Cow, Ruminations

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flid
BRONZE Member since Aug 2002

flid

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Warwickshire

Total posts: 3136
Posted:I believe this was solved in a Beavis and Butthead episode - morning wood is caused by the morning wood fairy.

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Xopher (aka Mr. Clean)


enthusiast
Location: Hoboken, New Jersey, USA

Total posts: 456
Posted:Tao Star, I'd say we're natural omnivores.

But we're a species that builds spacecraft. Not to mention that many of us shave and most of us wear clothing at least part of the time (yes, there are still cultures who do not, long may they wave). And while you mostly hear about the people who don't, there are lots and lots of folks (even MEN) who practice lifelong monogamy, for really real.

Not one of these things is natural. (There are species who are naturally monogamous; humans just aren't one of them. If they were, few would even be tempted to stray, instead of virtually everyone.)

My point is this: The fact that something is "natural" -- or not -- is not a legitimate argument for or against any human activity. Just my opinion, of course. Each person chooses to what degree they're going to go with nature (either species-wide or personal) or with a discipline based on some other source. Buddhism, for example.

Sometimes two natural emotions war with each other: compassion and predation can be terrifyingly close. When I hold a week-old infant, I am hugely careful and exquisitely gentle - because I know how fragile s/he is, and vivid images of the potential results of carelessness play through my brain like little horror movies. (That's what these PETA sickos are trying to do wrt meat when they show video slaughter-porn on the street outside the grade school; they forget that you cannot teach compassion without having it yourself.)

Does any of that mean there's anything wrong with monogamy or vegetarianism? Of course not. (Nor is it an argument for or against "sexual generosity" or meat-eating.) It just means that the "it's natural" argument is useless and a waste of time, no matter which side deploys it.

Carry on.


"If you didn't like something the first time, the cud won't be any good either." --Elsie the Cow, Ruminations

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Xopher (aka Mr. Clean)


enthusiast
Location: Hoboken, New Jersey, USA

Total posts: 456
Posted:Written by: flid

I believe this was solved in a Beavis and Butthead episode - morning wood is caused by the morning wood fairy.


COOL!!! Can I be a morning wood fairy? Can I, can I huh? [jumps up and down]


"If you didn't like something the first time, the cud won't be any good either." --Elsie the Cow, Ruminations

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Tao Star


Tao Star

Pooh-Bah
Location: Bristol

Total posts: 1662
Posted:well, i'm not trying to argue for or against anything - i was really just wondering why we have those teeth if, as that biiiiig scientific quote by lighting says we don't naturally eat meat.

i have my own opinions on weather to eat meat or not which i really can't be bothered to go in to - sorry!


I had a dream that my friend had a
strong-bad pop up book,
it was the book of my dreams.

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:Written by: Xopher

The stuff about the morning erection being due to constipation is nonsense too. When I was a kid it was attributed to a full bladder, but that's also been debunked. IIRC it has more to do with the brain being awakened out of Stage 4 sleep; a full bladder is one of the things that can wake you up, but isn't the cause, and neither is constipation.

Yes, brothers, you're popping rods all night long - or you're not getting any real sleep, since erections are very typically associated with Stage 4 sleep. Or so they told me when I asked about some of the sensors for my sleep study a number of years ago. The "morning wood" means you woke up suddenly, and that's all.

Let's leave the junk science to the right-wing loonie toons, shall we?



So here's the story. All male primates get an erection in REM sleep, regardless of the content of the dream. This is so reliable that we can use pressure sensors placed around the base of the penis at night to determine whether a complaint of erectile dysfunction stems from a true organic disorder or from psychological causes. If the patient gets an erection during the night, the cause is psychological.

All that a morning erection means is that you woke up out of REM sleep.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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mo-seph


mo-seph

enthusiast
Location: Edinburgh, UK

Total posts: 524
Posted:In the article it kinda seemed like they were suggesting it was a negative effect of eating meat confused

I always thought it was a nice fuzzy warm feeling to wake up to :disturbinghalfasleepsmiley:

biggrin yay for morning wood biggrin


monkeys ate my brain

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:Yup. The fact that the article would even imply that means that the entire thing is rubbish. That's not just a minor point, that's well-established physiology. The article isn't just wrong; it's dishonest.

-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Xopher (aka Mr. Clean)


enthusiast
Location: Hoboken, New Jersey, USA

Total posts: 456
Posted:Hey Lightning, Stage 4 =?= REM? I thought they were the same, and I didn't want people to hear "Losing My Religion" when I was trying to talk about sleep...because that's another thread altogether!

"If you didn't like something the first time, the cud won't be any good either." --Elsie the Cow, Ruminations

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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne

Total posts: 2830
Posted:Thanks Lightning and others for taking the time to post some facts in this discussion.


I was just going to say that, as an example of the rubbish I've seen posted in the name of pseud-science, that I'd have to agree with rhys (the proxey poster), that men who eat meat have more erections ubblol

thats a joke btw


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Flynt
SILVER Member since May 2002

Flynt

Intrepid Penguin


Total posts: 5635
Posted:I thought that REM occured near Stage 2 sleep, usually on the way back up from Stage 4.....

I have nothing to contribute to the morning wood side of this arguement however, ubblol


Currently on the right side up of the world.

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OrangeBobo
SILVER Member since Nov 2003

OrangeBobo

veteran
Location: Guelph, ON, Canada

Total posts: 1389
Posted:Written by: Tao Star

so if we're not natural carnivores - what is the explination for us having 'meat teeth'? Maybe we're just different.




I don't know if this has to do with anything about this at all, and maybe it's already been said? Ah well, I'm gonna say it anywho...

Umm, humans are currently evolving, by losing our wisdom teeth, are we not? I mean, all the time you hear of people - many of them kids my age - having to get their wisdoms out, because they don't fit in their jaw. So what does this mean? Were wisdom teeth just more grinding plates for green food? What affect could it possibly have in the future, and our eating habbits?

Just throwing that out there, even though.... offtopic

ubbrollsmile

~ Bobo


wie weit, wie weit noch?
fragst mich, wo wir gewesen sind...
du fehlst hier

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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield

Total posts: 3252
Posted:Ah, but why are they called wisdom teeth?



Could it be that they are connected with wisdom and the ultimate evolution of humanity?



This would indicate that: -



a. it is wiser to eat plants rather than meat



and



b. that the reason we have such problems with our wisdom teeth not fitting in our jaws is that humanity, by continuing to eat meat is, quite simply, not wise enough for its own teeth!



but I expect Lightning will dismiss this as being 'unscientific'



smile


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne

Total posts: 2830
Posted:Suspect that's a bit of tongue-and-cheek OWD.

But the fact remains that, as a species, we have not evolved one little bit.


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Maximus Ego


member


Total posts: 10
Posted:Cyber Sprite and I just returned from five weeks in Iran where vegetarianism was virtually unknown. People were fascinated when she told them she didn't eat meat, "What DO you eat?" was their usual reponse. And as being invited over for dinner is what passes for a wild evening in the Islamic Republic, people tried very hard to give her dishes "bedun guscht," without meat.
What she got was vegetables boiled beyond belief--a stack of greasy french fries next to potato chips, raw cucumbers (they were yummy), burnt tomatoes, slender eggplants boiled so long they had no color or texture and looked like amputated penises, and a huge mound of white rice that they soak overnight to remove all the vitamins (drizzled with butter).
I really admired the way she stuck to her diet. But I decided to eat whatever was offered me at homes and ordered chicken when eating out. Neither of us got sick, although some particularly nasty chicken I ate at a bus stopover in the middle of nowhere went right through me like a red-hot sword.
Iranians are in terrible shape. Most of them are overweight (according to local newspapers). Lifestyle as well as diet is responsible: they eat luch at about 2 pm, and then promptly take a siesta (go to sleep) for 2-3 hours. Then they eat dinner at about 11 pm and go to sleep for the night.
And as for animal rights, animals are treated like tools. We saw them overburdened, abused, ignored, and disrespected. When one dies in the field it just lies there to rot. (Muslim law forbids eating an animal which has died of natural causes.)
The first thing we did upon returning to San Francisco was eat at a vegetarian Chinese restaurant. Tofu never tasted so good.
And back at my own place, I picked ripe peaches and apricots from the trees and red tomatoes off the vines. Delicious.
Bad-eating habits are hardly limited to the industrialized West or factory-style food production. Nor are third-world diets any guide to what is good for you.

peace, miso, and a piece of the Playa,
Maximus Ego


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Spanner
BRONZE Member since Feb 2003

Spanner

remembers when it was all fields round here
Location: in the works... somewhere...

Total posts: 2790
Posted:Written by: Stone


Me laying it on a bit thick, coughcough, I don't think so. Don't suppose u have had to work in a poorly paid chip shop, either.



Animal fats are solid at room temperature. Suggest if it's an oil, it would be probably be palm or a canola type.



Suggest a photocopy would not ummm satisfy, some people wink





No, I haven't worked in a chip shop, poorly paid or otherwise. But I have been to plenty of chip shops where the staff have been more than happy to show me details of the ingredients of their food when requested to. The example I addressed was very specific and I felt it emphasized the "why?" over the equally questionable "why not?".



Maybe copied details of ingredients wouldn't satisfy some, that's true. But if a food outlet has taken the initiative to do so, it's more likely that the person asking would return to the shop and pass on the information by word of mouth to their friends, which would also benefit the shop. Business rarely has anything to gain by being stubborn towards the requirements of the consumer.



Imagine a member of staff was asked to bring details of a meat product to a meat eater so that they could verify that it had an acceptable amount of meat in it, if at all. If their request was refused, the meat eater would likely take their business elsewhere...


"I thought you are man, but
you are nice woman.

yay,

:R"

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