Page: ......
MikeGinnyGOLD Member
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA


Posted:
So I've now been a vegetarian for almost 3 years. I originally became a vegetarian because I realized I was a meat addict. There are also environmental concerns. Ethical concerns are way down on my list since I find it gets confusing for me to strongly support animal research for medical applications while opposing using animals for food. Especially because I'm not vegan.

But the final decision happened, not coincidentally, on the first day of Gross Anatomy dissection lab. ubblol

So after 3 years of almost total abstinence from meat (I'll eat meat if there is no other feasable option), I think I'm pretty much de-addicted. The idea of eating a large steak is just not at all appetizing to me.

BUUUUT, this vegetarian business is getting very inconvenient. It makes people stress over where to go for dinner, or what to cook for me. Furthermore, it significantly limits what I can order at a restaurant, and I can't stand it when the only vegetarian options on a menu feature zucchini and mushrooms (two of my least favorite foods).

So I'm starting to debate whether to de-classify myself as a vegetarian and just carry on with life eating very little meat. And by "very little" I mean less than one serving of meat a week. Since my initial reasons were for health, I don't see how this small amount of meat (which, when consumed, will preferably be organic) would change my risk factors. And such miniscule meat consumption wouldn't have much environmental impact. Besides, I have an unfortunate tendency towards anemia.

What do you think?

-Mike

Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella



A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura


HenrikGOLD Member
member
111 posts
Location: Sweden


Posted:
haha.. wihooo! clap yeeeeih!

choisc has got do do with alot in this thread.. becasue it IS yyour own choice. I believe in peoples right to think what they wanna think. its just when they want to prack their beliefs onto you or whoever, i get upset, angry, whatever.

and another thing. this is discussion everybody.. closing this forum would be a catastrophy...!!! i dont know how far i want to go but i know that some of my friends would call i a threat to democrasy. W need to talk with oneanother and come up with solutions from both parts. even though it sometimes may start a bit roughhanded. I accept vegiterians and vegans as long as they dont, as i said, tries to pull me into what they think is right. it has to be my choice..
whooya.. alot of thoughts from me rite now. smile

youre like the diet coke of evil. just one calorie, not evil enough.


Xopher (aka Mr. Clean)enthusiast
456 posts
Location: Hoboken, New Jersey, USA


Posted:
Written by: 'pOp'


(oh yeah: I did eat the diner, I'm still alive and not a lesser vegetarian
because i figured that the number of a beast wouldn't be the same as eating
the beast itself, now would it wink).





Hmm..."you are what you eat"? (heh) "They stab it with their steely knives, but they just. can't. kill. the Beast!"

"If you didn't like something the first time, the cud won't be any good either." --Elsie the Cow, Ruminations


TwirlyShoryuken!
233 posts
Location: Hexham, Newcastle, England


Posted:
Written by:

I would say that arguments on the moral issue also lack some creditability, because we have domesticated animals for thousands of years and we use animals for our pleasure and amusement; as pets, beasts of burden and food. I wonder how many vegetarians have a moggie, for example.




The amount of time we spend doing something as a race has no effect on how right or wrong something is. Men have beaten women for a lot longer than they've bred cats, but that doesn't make domestic abuse cool.

Morally, where most of us veggy types are coming from I think, is that we do not wish to cause suffering where it is unnecessary. There is no right or wrong in that, it's a choice we have made. Telling us that we have eaten animals for ever, whether true or not, doesn't change this stance at all. We really don't care that "its traditional" "its natural" "we're predators." There is evidence on both sides of this, but really, even if you are 100% right, it doesn't change anyones view. Why? Because most veggies don't care if they aren't being natural or traditional, they care that they are causing suffering and loss.

If it turned out that for thousands and thousands of years men had just raped whoever they wished to have a child with, would you suddenly think "oooh, sweet, rape must be cool?" If not, then don't expect your 'facts' to change anyones views.

I'm a vegetarian. I have cats. What? How? Stone; most people don't keep their animals in cages all their lives, before killing and eating them. The problem (for me at least) is with pain and suffering. Reverse the question perhaps - how many vegetarians feel the need to make life absolute hell for their pets?

Written by:

Animals don’t have a soul or a conscience, and in the real world a carnivore would eat you before you could say vegetarian.




A carnivore may have to eat me to survive, and that’s ok. However, in the “real world,” this is very unlikely, as I live in England, where vast amounts of food abound. And anything big enough to eat me does not. In the real world, a skinhead would punch you before you could say pacifist, it doesn’t mean you should go out there and beat up geeks now does it?

Well I don't believe in the "soul" so all I can really say to that bit is neither do I, neither do you. Do animals have a conscience? Well, they can work through problems, they can do maths, some monkeys even have a sense of injustice. They can feel pain. I don't see what you're looking for in them. Just a higher level of intelligence? If they don't know why you're killing them, they don't deserve to live or something? Why does my conscience give me rights, in your eyes, that animals don't have? Hopefully you can expand a bit here, but for me, if they can feel pain, I ought not go out of my way to inflict it.

You bought up conscience so I have to ask this: if it is a factor, do you have a problem with the consumption of the mentally disabled? I don't mean naturally ( yeah you'll get CJD or whatever) but ethically, if you will. There are human beings who have a lower level of conscience than most animals. This is out there for anyone by the way – I want an ethical reason for the animal pain hooray, disabled pain boo viewpoint. They don’t know what’s going on, I have big sharp teeth, and I don’t give a damn if its bad for me – if I can eat animals, why can’t I eat mentally handicapped people?

Yes, I expect the usual (“I’d happily eat the disabled if I got the chance,” “that’s just stupid”) but I’m being genuine – I think for your sakes you should have a think about the different life-values you deal out, and why. If you don’t understand the reasons and logic behind your ideals and actions, there is very little point in standing up for them.

Respect,
Davy

MikeGinnyGOLD Member
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA


Posted:
We have to remember that in all higher carnivores, cannibalism is rare. There seems to be some genetic dictum: "Members of your own species have a different value than members of other species."



My point is that I think that comparing meat eating to cannibalism is probably just a touch extreme.



(And yes, let's leave out the "stranded in the mountains after a plane crash" scenario.)
EDITED_BY: There is no "e" in "Lightning" (1089671040)

-Mike

Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella



A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura


TwirlyShoryuken!
233 posts
Location: Hexham, Newcastle, England


Posted:
Lions will eat lion cubs in the right circumstances, and they are like the best carnivores out there. However another possible example is I want to eat the children of my wifes ex-lover, they are very young thus no conscience..... go!

And yeah, I'll eat anything after a plane crash.

Davy

onewheeldaveGOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom


Posted:
Written by: There is no "e" in "Lightning"



We have to remember that in all higher carnivores, cannibalism is rare. There seems to be some genetic dictum: "Members of your own species have a different value than members of other species."



My point is that I think that comparing meat eating to cannibalism is probably just a touch extreme.



(And yes, let's leave out the "stranded in the mountains after a plane crash" scenario.)




Especially given what Davy said in the previous post about the way mankind has behaved in the past, or about how nature has decreed we and other animals behave as not being particularly relevant to the issue; surely this point by Lightning is just another diversionary tactic?



To me it seems the point he's making is that if it's ok to kill and eat animals on the grounds that they are less conscious than us, then surely there's grounds for eating humans who are similarly lacking in higher consciousness.



It seems like a sound argument that is worthy of a good answer.

"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!


onewheeldaveGOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom


Posted:
Written by: nilid69




Morally, where most of us veggy types are coming from I think, is that we do not wish to cause suffering where it is unnecessary. There is no right or wrong in that, it's a choice we have made. Telling us that we have eaten animals for ever, whether true or not, doesn't change this stance at all. We really don't care that "its traditional" "its natural" "we're predators." There is evidence on both sides of this, but really, even if you are 100% right, it doesn't change anyones view. Why? Because most veggies don't care if they aren't being natural or traditional, they care that they are causing suffering and loss.




Excellent and consise.

Some of us have been saying this from the first few pages, hopefully now you've said it so well it'll start to sink in a bit better.

Nice one smile

"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!


StoneGOLD Member
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia


Posted:
OK, not much time today. Conscience is not intelligence. Conscience is the awareness of a moral or ethical aspect to one's conduct together with the urge to prefer right over wrong (dictionary dot com).



The point about cats was they are top of the line predators, and cause much suffering by eating all the native birds and animals in my part of the world, even when they are supposedly kept inside and forced to wear bells. If u keep a cat then u contribute to that suffering and depletion of bio-diversity. Cats are also carnivores, and even if you don’t eat meat, you have to feed your cat meat. If you have you cat on a veggie diet, then u are being cruel, as cats are not herbivores, and someone should call the RSPCA.



Do I have a problem with the consumption of the mentally disabled? Yes. Do I have a problem with euthanasia? That’s another thread, I think. Have u seen the movie soylent green?



Late edition, I’m in a rush: One more thing, if you keep a cat u keep it puerly for your own pleasure, which would seem to me to be a less good reason than keeping say sheeps for clothing (wool) and food (meat).



redface edit due to bad day and oops spelling mistake. Its should be Conscience not Conscious. K, sorrry for that.




EDITED_BY: Stone (1089692879)

If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh


onewheeldaveGOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom


Posted:
Written by: Stone


OK, not much time today. Conscious is not intelligence. Conscious is the awareness of a moral or ethical aspect to one's conduct together with the urge to prefer right over wrong (dictionary dot com).
.



There's several aspects to 'conscious'; my dictionary, for example, focuses on being awake, being aware.

To include awareness of moral/ethical characteristics is IMO grossly biased and naturally denies animals the possession of consciousness. It's certainly not what I mean by the word.

Regardless, by Davys talk of causing suffering and loss, and my own past contribution concerning 'sentience' (which animals do possess), the fact remains that killing/eating animals does cause unnessesary suffering and loss to sentient beings.

"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!


MikeGinnyGOLD Member
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA


Posted:
Written by: onewheeldave



Especially given what Davy said in the previous post about the way mankind has behaved in the past, or about how nature has decreed we and other animals behave as not being particularly relevant to the issue; surely this point by Lightning is just another diversionary tactic?

To me it seems the point he's making is that if it's ok to kill and eat animals on the grounds that they are less conscious than us, then surely there's grounds for eating humans who are similarly lacking in higher consciousness.

It seems like a sound argument that is worthy of a good answer.




I will (stubbornly) say again that I believe that comparing cannabalism to eating meat is extreme.

It's like when you're a kid and you do something "because everyone else is doing it" and an adult says "well if they all jumped off a bridge, would you have done it, too?"

Just as there is a difference between throwing snowballs and suicide, there is a difference between eating meat and eating people.

I'm sorry, but I can't have a rational discussion with someone who believes that humans should recieve equal moral consideration as a farm animal. I just can't wrap my brain around that. *shrug*

-Mike

Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella



A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura


StoneGOLD Member
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia


Posted:
Written by:

Written by:Lightning: I'm sorry, but I can't have a rational discussion with someone who believes that humans should recieve equal moral consideration as a farm animal. I just can't wrap my brain around that.






Thanks Lightning, that’s was what I was trying to say. I’ll just add that I think it’s difficult to have a rational discussion with someone who believes that farm yard animals should recieve equal moral consideration as humans.



And hey, there is no e in van dyk either wink







smile

If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh


onewheeldaveGOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom


Posted:
Written by: There is no "e" in "Lightning"



I will (stubbornly) say again that I believe that comparing cannabalism to eating meat is extreme............

.........I'm sorry, but I can't have a rational discussion with someone who believes that humans should recieve equal moral consideration as a farm animal. I just can't wrap my brain around that. *shrug*



I'm not saying that humans should recieve equal moral treatment with farm animals, neither, I believe, is Davy, or anyone else here- no one is saying that.

There are very obvious physiological and mental differences between humans and animals.

However, there are things we have in common, namely sentience and the ability to feel pain and loss.

The cannibalism thing was brought up , not as a recommendation to start eating humans, but as a counter example to the view that-

--------it's OK to kill and eat animals on the grounds that they have a lesser emotional/conscious life than humans---------

because, if that were valid grounds for killing and eating humans, then it would also be valid grounds for killling and eating mentally/conscious impaired humans.

And it's not OK to eat such humans, therefore, the assumption that it's ok to eat creatures whose mental/conscious life is below that certain level, is clearly shown to be invalid.

No ones saying it's OK to eat humans, what they're saying is that the view that it's ok to eat animals, purely on the basis of their lesser mental/conscious aspects, is incorrect.

As to whether humans have some special moral status solely because of their humanity- that's an interesting discussion, but totally irrelevant where this specific issue (of a low mental/conscious life being grounds for killing and eating) is concerned.

"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!


StoneGOLD Member
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia


Posted:
nilid69, I don’t think anyone is trying to change your views. Mostly, what I object to is all the misleading and potentially dangerous medical information that has been used in arguments. I also object to the way most vegetarians over sensationalise their arguments, and claim the high moral ground, as if their arguments are divinely inspired and therefore truth can be dismissed.



The historic/evolutionary comments were to show where we fit in the food chain, which has nothing to do with rape or cannibalism. Face it, humans are the dominant species on the planet, we eat prey animals as is the natural order of things. Yes, some of the more fortunate amongst us have a choice, and I agree with that. I think we eat far too much meat and it’s an polluting, inefficient process etcetcetc. However, one of your main contentions is that being a non-vegetarian causes unnecessary suffering of animals. It would suggest that this argument would be negated if animals were killed painlessly, and we all die eventually. I would also suspect that a great many people become vegetarians for health reasons, as well as moral ones.



(also see above, for other comments.

Also it should be conscience not conscious, sorry about spelling error redface)






EDITED_BY: Stone (1089692654)

If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh


TwirlyShoryuken!
233 posts
Location: Hexham, Newcastle, England


Posted:
Written by:



I'm sorry, but I can't have a rational discussion with someone who believes that humans should recieve equal moral consideration as a farm animal. I just can't wrap my brain around that.










Hahaha it's kinda like some b!tch I heard talking by the bar of my pub ("I try to have rational conversations with anti-foxhunting types, but they make me so angry I'm incapable of it.") Not calling you a b!tch there, just her.



All I was asking for was the reason for the differentiation you've made between dumb humans and dumb animals. If you do make one, it shouldn't be that hard to write it down. Just because an example is extreme doesn't mean it isn't logical or relevant.



"Why did you throw snowballs at me?"

"Johnny told me to"

"If Johnny told you to jump of a bridge, would you?"



Pick which answer deals with this better:

"Thats too extreme, I can't have a rational conversation with you if you really can't see the difference between throwing snowballs and killing myself"



"Well, I wouldn't do ANYTHING Johnny told me to - you have made it clear to me that being told to do it obviously WASNT the reason I threw the snowball. The reason I threw the snowball was that Johnny suggested it, but I really didn't think that the consequences would be bad, I thought it would be a laugh. Killing myself wouldn't be fun, it would hurt, and thus Johnnys command would not be enough to trigger a self-terminating responce from me."



Now you know the difference between throwing snowballs and sucide, and that it is easy to respond rationally to extreme examples, maybe you can tell me the difference between eating animals and eating humans?



1) I am human, therefore I feel an emotional attatchment to humans, including disabled humans. I don't feel this attatchment to animals, therefore I don't mind eating them.



2) My religeon forbids me to eat people.



3) Eating disabled people would cause emotional harm to their family, friends, and would adversly affect the entire human race. People are used to me eating animals, so such affects are not a worry for me if I stick to only eating animals.



C'mon, its an interesting discussion.











OWD:



Written by:



As to whether humans have some special moral status solely because of their humanity- that's an interesting discussion, but totally irrelevant where this specific issue (of a low mental/conscious life being grounds for killing and eating) is concerned.










I think its highly likely that this will become relevant at some point.





Respect

Davy

ps. Stone, I only learned to spell "conscience" off of one of your previous threads.

We all get what you mean so you have no need to apologise smile
EDITED_BY: nilid69 (1089721539)

MikeGinnyGOLD Member
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA


Posted:
Like I say, maybe it's the doctor in me, but I can't wrap my brain around the concept of giving people and animals equal status. I just can't do it and I can't explain why I can't do it.

-Mike

Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella



A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura


onewheeldaveGOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom


Posted:
That's good, because you don't need to wrap your brain round that concept; as previously explained by me, and others, no one here is giving equal status to humans and animals.

None of the arguments here need to do so.

Many of those arguments rest on it being wrong to inflict unecessary pain suffering and loss on any beings.

Lets say (as I'm sure you believe) that humans are much 'better' than animals i.e. of much more moral worth etc.

The argument that it is wrong to inflict unecessary pain and loss still stands even if those beings are inferior to humans.

And, also as previously pointed out, the issue of mentally damaged humans also doesn't rest on concepts of relative values of humans and animals.

Instead it was purely to show that the argument 'low mental capacity=ok to kill and eat' is invalid.

Perhaps if you're going to persist with this line it may be a good idea to quote the passagesd where people have claimed that animals are equal to humans- you certainly won't find any in my posts.

"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!


Xopher (aka Mr. Clean)enthusiast
456 posts
Location: Hoboken, New Jersey, USA


Posted:
For me, the line is drawn by similarity. Humans are too similar to me for me to eat them. So are chimps etc.

Actually, familiarity is a factor, too: I couldn't eat dog, cat, or hamster meat.

I'm a vegetarian (please note spelling...nuff said) anyway, and won't even eat beef, chicken, or fish now.

I do NOT draw the line by empathy. I'm too empathic. I've been known to wince when someone breaks a piece of quartz crystal (or mutilates one just to hang it around their neck, the bastards). Using empathy as a criterion would make it impossible for me to eat anything.

I guess if you grow up on a livestock farm, the familiarity thing goes away, at least partly. Though in the case of chickens I know some people who hate them, and take murderous pleasure in killing them (humanely; they're not THAT sick).

"If you didn't like something the first time, the cud won't be any good either." --Elsie the Cow, Ruminations


StoneGOLD Member
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia


Posted:
Written by:

All I was asking for was the reason for the differentiation you've made between dumb humans and dumb animals.




Think you just answered your own question nilid69. Humans possess language skills smile a conscience, intelligence and rational thought. And a soul.

Written by:

….. maybe you can tell me the difference between eating animals and eating humans?




Humans are generally too fat and salty to enjoy wink There are plenty of examples of cannibalism in human history, some not that far from home. Some believe that if you eat a strong person you will become strong yourself (you’ve watched the discovery channel).

I think we generally refrain from eating each other because we believe in continuation of the species (species survival). However, at high population levels when food becomes a rare resource, then we will eat each other just to survive, as in that movie where the aeroplane crashes into the mountain (a true story btw). So perhaps we don’t eat each at the moment because we don’t have to. Though, don’t get complacent, as bit more global warming could change things dramatically.

Poor old Snowball, exiled from the farm.

Written by:

OWD said: Many of those arguments rest on it being wrong to inflict unecessary pain suffering and loss on any beings.




Dave wot’s the problem then, if an animal is killed painlessly? I don’t think u have answered that question.

smile

If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh


onewheeldaveGOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom


Posted:
The problem is that you're inflicting loss on a being i.e. taking away an animals life.

In general, if you want to come at these questions from my direction, whatever example you have in mind, simply substitute 'human' for 'animal' and see how it pans out.

So: -

'Dave wot’s the problem then, if a human is killed painlessly? I don’t think u have answered that question.'

The problem is that killing painlessly is still killing, and therefore there are issues connected with it

(Cue Mike to come in and again accuse me of giving animals equal value to humans, which I will again deny; and so it goes on.......)

"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!


StoneGOLD Member
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia


Posted:
So OWD, I don’t think that answer stacks up with your previous comments:

Written by:

OWD said: I'm not saying that humans should recieve equal moral treatment with farm animals, neither, I believe, is Davy, or anyone else here- no one is saying that.

There are very obvious physiological and mental differences between humans and animals.


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh


onewheeldaveGOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom


Posted:
Why do the two not stack up?

"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!


MikeGinnyGOLD Member
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA


Posted:
So now I'm getting this gestalt (based on discussions of empathy and self-awareness and yadda) that we're heading in the direction of "what defines a human?"



That's way too heavy for me today. ubblol



Now, excuse me...a kid just came into the ER with abdominal pain.

-Mike

Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella



A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura


onewheeldaveGOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom


Posted:
Written by: There is no "e" in "Lightning"


So now I'm getting this gestalt (based on discussions of empathy and self-awareness and yadda) that we're heading in the direction of "what defines a human?"

That's way too heavy for me today. ubblol





Again, what's the relevance?

You seem to be hinting at some special characteristic of humans that absolves them from the abuse we put on animals.

So I'll make it easy for you- lets say that humans are 'special', in every sense, morally, emotionally, culturally etc etc; let's say that they are as higher removed from animals as animals are from plants.

That does not impact whatsoever on the fundamental fact that, by eating animals, we are inflicting unnecessary pain and loss on sentient beings (with the standard waiver concerning medical reasons etc as discussed several pages back).

(note: to everyone other than Lightning and stone- I'm not saying that humans are 'special' in that way, simply saying that, if they are, it doesn't have particular relevance to the issue of meat eating).

The only way I can imagine that anyone could consider it to be relevant is if they are operating on the view that it is human style sentience, and that alone, that absolves a being from being killed and eaten for its flesh.

Whereas the point of what I'm saying is that it is wrong to inflict unnecessary pain and loss on any sentient being, regardless of whether they have human type sentience.

"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!


TwirlyShoryuken!
233 posts
Location: Hexham, Newcastle, England


Posted:
Written by:


Written by: nilid
All I was asking for was the reason for the differentiation you've made between dumb humans and dumb animals.



Think you just answered your own question nilid69. Humans possess language skills a conscience, intelligence and rational thought. And a soul.




Hey, I said dumb humans. We were talking about the extremely mentally handicapped remember? ie humans which don't possess language skills, a conscience, intelligence and rational thought. Maybe they possess a soul, but those don't exist :P
So no, I didn't.

Anyway, I'm tired of this. OWD is saying the same thing over and over again, and instead of anyone addressing it head on, we're just going off on little tangents addressing points that, when it comes down to it, are quite irrelevant.

Eating beefs causes unneccessary loss and suffering. Whether people give enough of a shit to care is something only they can decide.

Respect,
Davy

MikeGinnyGOLD Member
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA


Posted:
Written by: onewheeldave


You seem to be hinting at some special characteristic of humans that absolves them from the abuse we put on animals.




As opposed to, say, bears? They're omnivores, too. We don't judge them for eating meat.

-Mike

Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella



A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura


onewheeldaveGOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom


Posted:
I'm doing my best here, but I'm really coming to feel that you're not wanting to get to the heart of this.



I'll make you a deal- answer this fundamental question, which, as Davy points out is basically the only thing I've been saying for the past 18 pages: -



Do you (lightning, or maybe stone would like to answer as well), consider it wrong to cause unnecessary suffering, pain and loss to sentient (ie includes animals) beings.



A simple yes or no would be great.



If you do that then I'll tell exactly why IMO it's perfectly ok for bears to eat meat, and why, even if it wasn't, that would not be relevant to the issue of whether it's ok for humans to eat meat, and even whether I consider humans to be superior to animals.



But, if you're not willing to answer that question, then I don't think we can proceed any further.



I hope you do have sufficient respect for me that you will give an answer, as I've put a lot into this thread, mostly focused on that simple and, I hope, reasonably succinctly stated point of view- to continue I really need to know whether you agree or disagree with it.



My perception at this moment is that you're just coming up with side issues, none of which stand up to even a rudimentary examination; and I'm really finding it hard to believe that someone of your intelligence can actually be sincere in putting them forward.



That's just my perception, please don't take offence. If you address the above question it'd be great, but if not then I can't see much point me continuing to discuss this.
EDITED_BY: onewheeldave (1089823749)

"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
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Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!


...{SAFE}..."if i jump in the fire, will you?"
633 posts
Location: USA, wishing I was in SA


Posted:
Thoughts on vegetarianism


"dont do it"

i like breaking the Law frown , of Gravity wink !


MikeGinnyGOLD Member
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA


Posted:
Unnecessary suffering and waste is bad, of course.

What's "necessary?" Some would argue that medical research is unnecessary.

Some would argue that they'd just die without their leather Gucci purse. Go figure. *shrug*

-Mike

Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella



A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura


StoneGOLD Member
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia


Posted:
Perhaps u did nilid69, but that’s not a good example because id people may make up like 0.0001% percent of the population, where as all animals are dumb. But to answer your question, even id people are Homo sapiens, ie. Humans are a different species. How’s you cat?

OWD, I do consider it wrong to cause unnecessary suffering, pain and loss to sentient beings. However it depends on what u call unnecessary pain, and that’s where we differ. I expect it’s due to my farm background. Mulesing for example, has the animal libbers up in arms, but trust me, its better than a fly blown sheep. And I don’t consider it cruel to use prey animals as food, provided they well cared for and are killed painlessly. We all die you know. Some would consider it preferable to have a short sweet life, compared to a long painful one with all the miseries of growing old. Only the good die young.

Spanner, not really. If you look back through the 14 pages u will c many examples of sensationalism and inaccuracies used by vegetarians to gain the high moral ground. The black and white photos are a good example. Calling people cannibals and rapists is another.

Just to deviating to the fish shop example. I’ve had bad experiences where vegetarians expect preferential treatment, oblivious to everyone else. Say a bus load of tourists get off a bus at a fast food shop and the first person at the counter take 15-20 minutes to order because they insist on asking the cook about the meat content of every product, while 30 hungry tourists mutter inexplicable things about vegetarians. Same in restaurants, a vegetarian goes into a Texas steak house and starts complaining because people are eating meat. These types of actions do more harm than good.

However, to answer your original allergy question. I doubt that a vegetarian would die if they ate a small amount of meat, where as an allergy sufferer could quite possible die if they ate food with say nuts in it. I think as consumers, it’s up to us to know what’s in products, especially if we have special dietary requirements, and food places cater for vegetarians.

Just on the cooking oil and chips. Good chips are cooked in oil twice, places like Mc Donald’s used to pre-cooked chips in animal oils, and then send them to their outlets where they were cooked again in vegetable oil. This got them into much trouble, as they claimed their fries were suitable for vegetarians.


smile

If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh


onewheeldaveGOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom


Posted:
Written by: There is no "e" in "Lightning"



What's "necessary?" Some would argue that medical research is unnecessary.

Some would argue that they'd just die without their leather Gucci purse. Go figure. *shrug*



We don't need to worry about what's necessary and medical research etc (to answer the specifc question Iasked above).

The question is about unnecessary (pain, suffering and loss).

Eating of meat, for the majority of humans is unnecessary; in the few instances where it is medically necessary to eat meat, then I'm not going to argue that it is wrong to do so.

======================


Written by: There is no "e" in "Lightning"


Unnecessary suffering and waste is bad, of course.




Like you say, of course unnecessary pain and waste is bad.

However the question I asked was not the one you've just answered: -

Do you (lightning, or maybe stone would like to answer as well), consider it wrong to cause unnecessary suffering, pain and loss to sentient (ie includes animals) beings.

It's very specific; it may be short but I put a lot of thought into wording it so it was both concise and not open to too many side issues.

Significantly it includes 'cause' (i.e. causing pain and suffering being wrong- rather than simply pain and suffering itself being bad

Can I assume that your answer to my question is 'yes'?

"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!


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