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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:So I've now been a vegetarian for almost 3 years. I originally became a vegetarian because I realized I was a meat addict. There are also environmental concerns. Ethical concerns are way down on my list since I find it gets confusing for me to strongly support animal research for medical applications while opposing using animals for food. Especially because I'm not vegan.

But the final decision happened, not coincidentally, on the first day of Gross Anatomy dissection lab. ubblol

So after 3 years of almost total abstinence from meat (I'll eat meat if there is no other feasable option), I think I'm pretty much de-addicted. The idea of eating a large steak is just not at all appetizing to me.

BUUUUT, this vegetarian business is getting very inconvenient. It makes people stress over where to go for dinner, or what to cook for me. Furthermore, it significantly limits what I can order at a restaurant, and I can't stand it when the only vegetarian options on a menu feature zucchini and mushrooms (two of my least favorite foods).

So I'm starting to debate whether to de-classify myself as a vegetarian and just carry on with life eating very little meat. And by "very little" I mean less than one serving of meat a week. Since my initial reasons were for health, I don't see how this small amount of meat (which, when consumed, will preferably be organic) would change my risk factors. And such miniscule meat consumption wouldn't have much environmental impact. Besides, I have an unfortunate tendency towards anemia.

What do you think?


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne

Total posts: 2830
Posted:Excuse me! I dont think the thread has been ruined by me squabbling, and I certainly dont think the thread should be locked. In fact, I often wonder at the motives of people when they start threatening thread closure, as it seems a bit extreme to me. I did take offence at what was said about knowledge and knobs, as I thought those particular comments were below the belt, and this may have tainted a few posts. I will modify some comments that may seem discourteous.

If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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(Sole)Spark


fixerupera of strangness maximus
Location: Brisbane, Australia

Total posts: 147
Posted:well i may possibly cop alot of criticism over my view but meat its da bomb :P i mean humans are omnivores we are made to eat meat so if it runs chace it and eat it.

yay up to 5 beat weave only 4 more to get to 9 :P

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Henrik
GOLD Member since Jul 2004

Henrik

member
Location: Sweden

Total posts: 111
Posted:Well, the main reason (as ive come across) why people become vegiterians or vegans is because they are offensed by the way for example stock animals (is that the right word?) like cows etc are beeing treated.
Chickens with small cadges yadda yadda and so on.

I have never heard a vegiterian look down on a human eating meat when that was his only option for living.
as in hunting for your own food, and using every part of the killed animal for non profit things. with me?

I cannot talk for every vegiterian OR vegan.
this is my opinion based on what ive came across disussing with friends and alot of uhm.. i really dont know this word in english.. militant vegans?? (they are the ones who goes out and burn famrs and setting cows free and all of that...:P)


youre like the diet coke of evil. just one calorie, not evil enough.

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(Sole)Spark


fixerupera of strangness maximus
Location: Brisbane, Australia

Total posts: 147
Posted:i cant say i blame them
buring stuff is mad biggrin


yay up to 5 beat weave only 4 more to get to 9 :P

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Henrik
GOLD Member since Jul 2004

Henrik

member
Location: Sweden

Total posts: 111
Posted:haha good one!.. i didnt see that one myself! biggrin biggrin biggrin biggrin

youre like the diet coke of evil. just one calorie, not evil enough.

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_pOp_
BRONZE Member since Mar 2017

Playing OldSchool Poi
Location: amsterdam

Total posts: 593
Posted:hmmm, it kinda sounds weird to say: but I actually agree with henrik for a change biggrin....

it's like I said in the deleted post: I (and most vegetarians with me) don't go wild if somebody wants to eat meat, we'd appriciate it when you don't when you have diner with us, but hey, it's everybody's own chice. on my run to the chipper at work yesterday (I work at a music-venue, so a lot of night shifts) I even got collegues some hamburgers.

and yes, if I had to (stranded after a plane crash or whatever other disaster), I would eat meat, preferably my fellow humans hug, to survive. but now I'm not stranded I have a choice (weird how the word "choice" seems to re-appear in this thread), so I don't need to and won't eat it.


meditate eRic.

I'm not normally a religious man, but if you're up there, save me, Superman!

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:pOp, it's that word "choice" that I think is important.

There are a few things in this world that drive me nuts, and sanctimoniousness is one of them. I have no use for vegetarians who make faces when others eat meat, who berate and lecture meat-eaters, and who generally make obnoxious arses of themselves about their diets.

As a vegetarian, I was always happy to discuss it with someone if asked (generally "I became a vegetarian on the first day of Gross Anatomy" stopped that discussion ubblol ). I always reassured people not to apologize for eating meat in front of me and stressed that my decision was a personal choice.

IMHO, being militant about vegetarianism and trying to convert everyone is no better than what Jerry Falwell or the other nutty Southern Baptists do with their religion.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Henrik
GOLD Member since Jul 2004

Henrik

member
Location: Sweden

Total posts: 111
Posted:haha.. wihooo! clap yeeeeih!

choisc has got do do with alot in this thread.. becasue it IS yyour own choice. I believe in peoples right to think what they wanna think. its just when they want to prack their beliefs onto you or whoever, i get upset, angry, whatever.

and another thing. this is discussion everybody.. closing this forum would be a catastrophy...!!! i dont know how far i want to go but i know that some of my friends would call i a threat to democrasy. W need to talk with oneanother and come up with solutions from both parts. even though it sometimes may start a bit roughhanded. I accept vegiterians and vegans as long as they dont, as i said, tries to pull me into what they think is right. it has to be my choice..
whooya.. alot of thoughts from me rite now. smile


youre like the diet coke of evil. just one calorie, not evil enough.

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Xopher (aka Mr. Clean)


enthusiast
Location: Hoboken, New Jersey, USA

Total posts: 456
Posted:Written by: 'pOp'

(oh yeah: I did eat the diner, I'm still alive and not a lesser vegetarian
because i figured that the number of a beast wouldn't be the same as eating
the beast itself, now would it wink).




Hmm..."you are what you eat"? (heh) "They stab it with their steely knives, but they just. can't. kill. the Beast!"


"If you didn't like something the first time, the cud won't be any good either." --Elsie the Cow, Ruminations

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Twirly


Twirly

Shoryuken!
Location: Hexham, Newcastle, England

Total posts: 233
Posted:Written by:
I would say that arguments on the moral issue also lack some creditability, because we have domesticated animals for thousands of years and we use animals for our pleasure and amusement; as pets, beasts of burden and food. I wonder how many vegetarians have a moggie, for example.



The amount of time we spend doing something as a race has no effect on how right or wrong something is. Men have beaten women for a lot longer than they've bred cats, but that doesn't make domestic abuse cool.

Morally, where most of us veggy types are coming from I think, is that we do not wish to cause suffering where it is unnecessary. There is no right or wrong in that, it's a choice we have made. Telling us that we have eaten animals for ever, whether true or not, doesn't change this stance at all. We really don't care that "its traditional" "its natural" "we're predators." There is evidence on both sides of this, but really, even if you are 100% right, it doesn't change anyones view. Why? Because most veggies don't care if they aren't being natural or traditional, they care that they are causing suffering and loss.

If it turned out that for thousands and thousands of years men had just raped whoever they wished to have a child with, would you suddenly think "oooh, sweet, rape must be cool?" If not, then don't expect your 'facts' to change anyones views.

I'm a vegetarian. I have cats. What? How? Stone; most people don't keep their animals in cages all their lives, before killing and eating them. The problem (for me at least) is with pain and suffering. Reverse the question perhaps - how many vegetarians feel the need to make life absolute hell for their pets?

Written by:
Animals dont have a soul or a conscience, and in the real world a carnivore would eat you before you could say vegetarian.



A carnivore may have to eat me to survive, and thats ok. However, in the real world, this is very unlikely, as I live in England, where vast amounts of food abound. And anything big enough to eat me does not. In the real world, a skinhead would punch you before you could say pacifist, it doesnt mean you should go out there and beat up geeks now does it?

Well I don't believe in the "soul" so all I can really say to that bit is neither do I, neither do you. Do animals have a conscience? Well, they can work through problems, they can do maths, some monkeys even have a sense of injustice. They can feel pain. I don't see what you're looking for in them. Just a higher level of intelligence? If they don't know why you're killing them, they don't deserve to live or something? Why does my conscience give me rights, in your eyes, that animals don't have? Hopefully you can expand a bit here, but for me, if they can feel pain, I ought not go out of my way to inflict it.

You bought up conscience so I have to ask this: if it is a factor, do you have a problem with the consumption of the mentally disabled? I don't mean naturally ( yeah you'll get CJD or whatever) but ethically, if you will. There are human beings who have a lower level of conscience than most animals. This is out there for anyone by the way I want an ethical reason for the animal pain hooray, disabled pain boo viewpoint. They dont know whats going on, I have big sharp teeth, and I dont give a damn if its bad for me if I can eat animals, why cant I eat mentally handicapped people?

Yes, I expect the usual (Id happily eat the disabled if I got the chance, thats just stupid) but Im being genuine I think for your sakes you should have a think about the different life-values you deal out, and why. If you dont understand the reasons and logic behind your ideals and actions, there is very little point in standing up for them.

Respect,
Davy


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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:We have to remember that in all higher carnivores, cannibalism is rare. There seems to be some genetic dictum: "Members of your own species have a different value than members of other species."



My point is that I think that comparing meat eating to cannibalism is probably just a touch extreme.



(And yes, let's leave out the "stranded in the mountains after a plane crash" scenario.)

EDITED_BY: There is no "e" in "Lightning" (1089671040)


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Twirly


Twirly

Shoryuken!
Location: Hexham, Newcastle, England

Total posts: 233
Posted:Lions will eat lion cubs in the right circumstances, and they are like the best carnivores out there. However another possible example is I want to eat the children of my wifes ex-lover, they are very young thus no conscience..... go!

And yeah, I'll eat anything after a plane crash.

Davy


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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield

Total posts: 3252
Posted:Written by: There is no "e" in "Lightning"


We have to remember that in all higher carnivores, cannibalism is rare. There seems to be some genetic dictum: "Members of your own species have a different value than members of other species."



My point is that I think that comparing meat eating to cannibalism is probably just a touch extreme.



(And yes, let's leave out the "stranded in the mountains after a plane crash" scenario.)



Especially given what Davy said in the previous post about the way mankind has behaved in the past, or about how nature has decreed we and other animals behave as not being particularly relevant to the issue; surely this point by Lightning is just another diversionary tactic?



To me it seems the point he's making is that if it's ok to kill and eat animals on the grounds that they are less conscious than us, then surely there's grounds for eating humans who are similarly lacking in higher consciousness.



It seems like a sound argument that is worthy of a good answer.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield

Total posts: 3252
Posted:Written by: nilid69



Morally, where most of us veggy types are coming from I think, is that we do not wish to cause suffering where it is unnecessary. There is no right or wrong in that, it's a choice we have made. Telling us that we have eaten animals for ever, whether true or not, doesn't change this stance at all. We really don't care that "its traditional" "its natural" "we're predators." There is evidence on both sides of this, but really, even if you are 100% right, it doesn't change anyones view. Why? Because most veggies don't care if they aren't being natural or traditional, they care that they are causing suffering and loss.



Excellent and consise.

Some of us have been saying this from the first few pages, hopefully now you've said it so well it'll start to sink in a bit better.

Nice one smile


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne

Total posts: 2830
Posted:OK, not much time today. Conscience is not intelligence. Conscience is the awareness of a moral or ethical aspect to one's conduct together with the urge to prefer right over wrong (dictionary dot com).



The point about cats was they are top of the line predators, and cause much suffering by eating all the native birds and animals in my part of the world, even when they are supposedly kept inside and forced to wear bells. If u keep a cat then u contribute to that suffering and depletion of bio-diversity. Cats are also carnivores, and even if you dont eat meat, you have to feed your cat meat. If you have you cat on a veggie diet, then u are being cruel, as cats are not herbivores, and someone should call the RSPCA.



Do I have a problem with the consumption of the mentally disabled? Yes. Do I have a problem with euthanasia? Thats another thread, I think. Have u seen the movie soylent green?



Late edition, Im in a rush: One more thing, if you keep a cat u keep it puerly for your own pleasure, which would seem to me to be a less good reason than keeping say sheeps for clothing (wool) and food (meat).



redface edit due to bad day and oops spelling mistake. Its should be Conscience not Conscious. K, sorrry for that.




EDITED_BY: Stone (1089692879)


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield

Total posts: 3252
Posted:Written by: Stone

OK, not much time today. Conscious is not intelligence. Conscious is the awareness of a moral or ethical aspect to one's conduct together with the urge to prefer right over wrong (dictionary dot com).
.


There's several aspects to 'conscious'; my dictionary, for example, focuses on being awake, being aware.

To include awareness of moral/ethical characteristics is IMO grossly biased and naturally denies animals the possession of consciousness. It's certainly not what I mean by the word.

Regardless, by Davys talk of causing suffering and loss, and my own past contribution concerning 'sentience' (which animals do possess), the fact remains that killing/eating animals does cause unnessesary suffering and loss to sentient beings.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:Written by: onewheeldave


Especially given what Davy said in the previous post about the way mankind has behaved in the past, or about how nature has decreed we and other animals behave as not being particularly relevant to the issue; surely this point by Lightning is just another diversionary tactic?

To me it seems the point he's making is that if it's ok to kill and eat animals on the grounds that they are less conscious than us, then surely there's grounds for eating humans who are similarly lacking in higher consciousness.

It seems like a sound argument that is worthy of a good answer.



I will (stubbornly) say again that I believe that comparing cannabalism to eating meat is extreme.

It's like when you're a kid and you do something "because everyone else is doing it" and an adult says "well if they all jumped off a bridge, would you have done it, too?"

Just as there is a difference between throwing snowballs and suicide, there is a difference between eating meat and eating people.

I'm sorry, but I can't have a rational discussion with someone who believes that humans should recieve equal moral consideration as a farm animal. I just can't wrap my brain around that. *shrug*


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne

Total posts: 2830
Posted:Written by:
Written by:Lightning: I'm sorry, but I can't have a rational discussion with someone who believes that humans should recieve equal moral consideration as a farm animal. I just can't wrap my brain around that.





Thanks Lightning, thats was what I was trying to say. Ill just add that I think its difficult to have a rational discussion with someone who believes that farm yard animals should recieve equal moral consideration as humans.



And hey, there is no e in van dyk either wink







smile


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield

Total posts: 3252
Posted:Written by: There is no "e" in "Lightning"


I will (stubbornly) say again that I believe that comparing cannabalism to eating meat is extreme............

.........I'm sorry, but I can't have a rational discussion with someone who believes that humans should recieve equal moral consideration as a farm animal. I just can't wrap my brain around that. *shrug*


I'm not saying that humans should recieve equal moral treatment with farm animals, neither, I believe, is Davy, or anyone else here- no one is saying that.

There are very obvious physiological and mental differences between humans and animals.

However, there are things we have in common, namely sentience and the ability to feel pain and loss.

The cannibalism thing was brought up , not as a recommendation to start eating humans, but as a counter example to the view that-

--------it's OK to kill and eat animals on the grounds that they have a lesser emotional/conscious life than humans---------

because, if that were valid grounds for killing and eating humans, then it would also be valid grounds for killling and eating mentally/conscious impaired humans.

And it's not OK to eat such humans, therefore, the assumption that it's ok to eat creatures whose mental/conscious life is below that certain level, is clearly shown to be invalid.

No ones saying it's OK to eat humans, what they're saying is that the view that it's ok to eat animals, purely on the basis of their lesser mental/conscious aspects, is incorrect.

As to whether humans have some special moral status solely because of their humanity- that's an interesting discussion, but totally irrelevant where this specific issue (of a low mental/conscious life being grounds for killing and eating) is concerned.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne

Total posts: 2830
Posted:nilid69, I dont think anyone is trying to change your views. Mostly, what I object to is all the misleading and potentially dangerous medical information that has been used in arguments. I also object to the way most vegetarians over sensationalise their arguments, and claim the high moral ground, as if their arguments are divinely inspired and therefore truth can be dismissed.



The historic/evolutionary comments were to show where we fit in the food chain, which has nothing to do with rape or cannibalism. Face it, humans are the dominant species on the planet, we eat prey animals as is the natural order of things. Yes, some of the more fortunate amongst us have a choice, and I agree with that. I think we eat far too much meat and its an polluting, inefficient process etcetcetc. However, one of your main contentions is that being a non-vegetarian causes unnecessary suffering of animals. It would suggest that this argument would be negated if animals were killed painlessly, and we all die eventually. I would also suspect that a great many people become vegetarians for health reasons, as well as moral ones.



(also see above, for other comments.

Also it should be conscience not conscious, sorry about spelling error redface)






EDITED_BY: Stone (1089692654)


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Twirly


Twirly

Shoryuken!
Location: Hexham, Newcastle, England

Total posts: 233
Posted:Written by:


I'm sorry, but I can't have a rational discussion with someone who believes that humans should recieve equal moral consideration as a farm animal. I just can't wrap my brain around that.









Hahaha it's kinda like some b!tch I heard talking by the bar of my pub ("I try to have rational conversations with anti-foxhunting types, but they make me so angry I'm incapable of it.") Not calling you a b!tch there, just her.



All I was asking for was the reason for the differentiation you've made between dumb humans and dumb animals. If you do make one, it shouldn't be that hard to write it down. Just because an example is extreme doesn't mean it isn't logical or relevant.



"Why did you throw snowballs at me?"

"Johnny told me to"

"If Johnny told you to jump of a bridge, would you?"



Pick which answer deals with this better:

"Thats too extreme, I can't have a rational conversation with you if you really can't see the difference between throwing snowballs and killing myself"



"Well, I wouldn't do ANYTHING Johnny told me to - you have made it clear to me that being told to do it obviously WASNT the reason I threw the snowball. The reason I threw the snowball was that Johnny suggested it, but I really didn't think that the consequences would be bad, I thought it would be a laugh. Killing myself wouldn't be fun, it would hurt, and thus Johnnys command would not be enough to trigger a self-terminating responce from me."



Now you know the difference between throwing snowballs and sucide, and that it is easy to respond rationally to extreme examples, maybe you can tell me the difference between eating animals and eating humans?



1) I am human, therefore I feel an emotional attatchment to humans, including disabled humans. I don't feel this attatchment to animals, therefore I don't mind eating them.



2) My religeon forbids me to eat people.



3) Eating disabled people would cause emotional harm to their family, friends, and would adversly affect the entire human race. People are used to me eating animals, so such affects are not a worry for me if I stick to only eating animals.



C'mon, its an interesting discussion.











OWD:



Written by:


As to whether humans have some special moral status solely because of their humanity- that's an interesting discussion, but totally irrelevant where this specific issue (of a low mental/conscious life being grounds for killing and eating) is concerned.









I think its highly likely that this will become relevant at some point.





Respect

Davy

ps. Stone, I only learned to spell "conscience" off of one of your previous threads.

We all get what you mean so you have no need to apologise smile

EDITED_BY: nilid69 (1089721539)


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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:Like I say, maybe it's the doctor in me, but I can't wrap my brain around the concept of giving people and animals equal status. I just can't do it and I can't explain why I can't do it.

-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield

Total posts: 3252
Posted:That's good, because you don't need to wrap your brain round that concept; as previously explained by me, and others, no one here is giving equal status to humans and animals.

None of the arguments here need to do so.

Many of those arguments rest on it being wrong to inflict unecessary pain suffering and loss on any beings.

Lets say (as I'm sure you believe) that humans are much 'better' than animals i.e. of much more moral worth etc.

The argument that it is wrong to inflict unecessary pain and loss still stands even if those beings are inferior to humans.

And, also as previously pointed out, the issue of mentally damaged humans also doesn't rest on concepts of relative values of humans and animals.

Instead it was purely to show that the argument 'low mental capacity=ok to kill and eat' is invalid.

Perhaps if you're going to persist with this line it may be a good idea to quote the passagesd where people have claimed that animals are equal to humans- you certainly won't find any in my posts.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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Xopher (aka Mr. Clean)


enthusiast
Location: Hoboken, New Jersey, USA

Total posts: 456
Posted:For me, the line is drawn by similarity. Humans are too similar to me for me to eat them. So are chimps etc.

Actually, familiarity is a factor, too: I couldn't eat dog, cat, or hamster meat.

I'm a vegetarian (please note spelling...nuff said) anyway, and won't even eat beef, chicken, or fish now.

I do NOT draw the line by empathy. I'm too empathic. I've been known to wince when someone breaks a piece of quartz crystal (or mutilates one just to hang it around their neck, the bastards). Using empathy as a criterion would make it impossible for me to eat anything.

I guess if you grow up on a livestock farm, the familiarity thing goes away, at least partly. Though in the case of chickens I know some people who hate them, and take murderous pleasure in killing them (humanely; they're not THAT sick).


"If you didn't like something the first time, the cud won't be any good either." --Elsie the Cow, Ruminations

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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne

Total posts: 2830
Posted:Written by:
All I was asking for was the reason for the differentiation you've made between dumb humans and dumb animals.



Think you just answered your own question nilid69. Humans possess language skills smile a conscience, intelligence and rational thought. And a soul.

Written by:
.. maybe you can tell me the difference between eating animals and eating humans?



Humans are generally too fat and salty to enjoy wink There are plenty of examples of cannibalism in human history, some not that far from home. Some believe that if you eat a strong person you will become strong yourself (youve watched the discovery channel).

I think we generally refrain from eating each other because we believe in continuation of the species (species survival). However, at high population levels when food becomes a rare resource, then we will eat each other just to survive, as in that movie where the aeroplane crashes into the mountain (a true story btw). So perhaps we dont eat each at the moment because we dont have to. Though, dont get complacent, as bit more global warming could change things dramatically.

Poor old Snowball, exiled from the farm.

Written by:
OWD said: Many of those arguments rest on it being wrong to inflict unecessary pain suffering and loss on any beings.



Dave wots the problem then, if an animal is killed painlessly? I dont think u have answered that question.

smile


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield

Total posts: 3252
Posted:The problem is that you're inflicting loss on a being i.e. taking away an animals life.

In general, if you want to come at these questions from my direction, whatever example you have in mind, simply substitute 'human' for 'animal' and see how it pans out.

So: -

'Dave wots the problem then, if a human is killed painlessly? I dont think u have answered that question.'

The problem is that killing painlessly is still killing, and therefore there are issues connected with it

(Cue Mike to come in and again accuse me of giving animals equal value to humans, which I will again deny; and so it goes on.......)


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne

Total posts: 2830
Posted:So OWD, I dont think that answer stacks up with your previous comments:

Written by:
OWD said: I'm not saying that humans should recieve equal moral treatment with farm animals, neither, I believe, is Davy, or anyone else here- no one is saying that.

There are very obvious physiological and mental differences between humans and animals.



If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield

Total posts: 3252
Posted:Why do the two not stack up?

"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:So now I'm getting this gestalt (based on discussions of empathy and self-awareness and yadda) that we're heading in the direction of "what defines a human?"



That's way too heavy for me today. ubblol



Now, excuse me...a kid just came into the ER with abdominal pain.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield

Total posts: 3252
Posted:Written by: There is no "e" in "Lightning"

So now I'm getting this gestalt (based on discussions of empathy and self-awareness and yadda) that we're heading in the direction of "what defines a human?"

That's way too heavy for me today. ubblol




Again, what's the relevance?

You seem to be hinting at some special characteristic of humans that absolves them from the abuse we put on animals.

So I'll make it easy for you- lets say that humans are 'special', in every sense, morally, emotionally, culturally etc etc; let's say that they are as higher removed from animals as animals are from plants.

That does not impact whatsoever on the fundamental fact that, by eating animals, we are inflicting unnecessary pain and loss on sentient beings (with the standard waiver concerning medical reasons etc as discussed several pages back).

(note: to everyone other than Lightning and stone- I'm not saying that humans are 'special' in that way, simply saying that, if they are, it doesn't have particular relevance to the issue of meat eating).

The only way I can imagine that anyone could consider it to be relevant is if they are operating on the view that it is human style sentience, and that alone, that absolves a being from being killed and eaten for its flesh.

Whereas the point of what I'm saying is that it is wrong to inflict unnecessary pain and loss on any sentient being, regardless of whether they have human type sentience.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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