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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:So I've now been a vegetarian for almost 3 years. I originally became a vegetarian because I realized I was a meat addict. There are also environmental concerns. Ethical concerns are way down on my list since I find it gets confusing for me to strongly support animal research for medical applications while opposing using animals for food. Especially because I'm not vegan.

But the final decision happened, not coincidentally, on the first day of Gross Anatomy dissection lab. ubblol

So after 3 years of almost total abstinence from meat (I'll eat meat if there is no other feasable option), I think I'm pretty much de-addicted. The idea of eating a large steak is just not at all appetizing to me.

BUUUUT, this vegetarian business is getting very inconvenient. It makes people stress over where to go for dinner, or what to cook for me. Furthermore, it significantly limits what I can order at a restaurant, and I can't stand it when the only vegetarian options on a menu feature zucchini and mushrooms (two of my least favorite foods).

So I'm starting to debate whether to de-classify myself as a vegetarian and just carry on with life eating very little meat. And by "very little" I mean less than one serving of meat a week. Since my initial reasons were for health, I don't see how this small amount of meat (which, when consumed, will preferably be organic) would change my risk factors. And such miniscule meat consumption wouldn't have much environmental impact. Besides, I have an unfortunate tendency towards anemia.

What do you think?


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:Well, when I started taking fish oil for a rheumatologic condition that I have (and there's evidence in the literature that high-dose fish oil is helpful...and it has been for me), I realized that being vegetarian was actually deleterious to my health.

And no, flax seed oil is not as effective


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Total posts: 2830
Posted:Fair points Custom Bug. While I haven't checked, I think it depends on how far we go back in time. I suspect that by the time we evolved into Homo sapiens we were already omnivores.



I read somewhere that the ability to eat meat gave us a definite advantage, in that it allowed the development of the brain. This larger brain size allowed us to develop tools and eventually civilisations. The loss of a functioning appendix would indicate an increased reliance on meat on the diet. So, perhaps in affluent countries we do have a choice.



OWD, I'm not a cruel person and I only eat a bit of fish occasionally. I certainly don't support the intensive animal industries. However, while I think a distinction based on sentence has merit, I think it's a bit unrealistic to "Bambise" everything.



I like that Buddhist quote I found: "One who eats meat can have a pure heart just as one who does not eat meat can have an impure heart. In the Buddha's teachings, the important thing is the quality of your heart, not the contents of your diet".


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom

Total posts: 3252
Posted:What can I say?

You're lucky that you can say you're certain that fish oil, and none of the other factors in your life is responsible for alleviating your symptoms.

I've been vegan, vegetarian, near vegetarian as well as going through a variety of lifestyle practices.

I've never been able to conclude from those experiences which are good for my health.

So many factors, including just the general ups and downs of mood.

However you yourself, in response to, for example, some peoples new age alternative medicine posts, have stressed the need for extensive double blind scientific testing before drawing definite conclusions.

So i'm sure you'll agree that there's at least some room for doubt as to whether fish oil is definitly responsible for helping you, and whether it's the only thing that can provide that help.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:Oh, there's room for doubt, of course. It's true in all autoimmune conditions.

But that's why I use the evidence in the literature as my guide./


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom

Total posts: 3252
Posted:Written by: Stone


OWD, I'm not a cruel person and I only eat a bit of fish occasionally. I certainly don't support the intensive animal industries. However, while I think a distinction based on sentence has merit, I think it's a bit unrealistic to "Bambise" everything.

I like that Buddhist quote I found: "One who eats meat can have a pure heart just as one who does not eat meat can have an impure heart. In the Buddha's teachings, the important thing is the quality of your heart, not the contents of your diet".



Firstly, what does 'bambise' mean?

Concerning the buddhist quote, I thought I'd dealt with that previously.

A pure heart is a noble goal; What's of more relevance to most buddhists is what needs to be done to attain a pure heart, and that's a matter of 'practice' and living your life in the way most conducive to that goal.

One part of that is minimising the amount of unnecessary harm you cause to others.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Total posts: 2830
Posted:No OWD, I didn’t realise u "dealt" with the quote. It makes sense to me, perhaps u are trying to skew some of the Buddhist teachings.

Bambise from the movie Bambi. To humanise animals, give animals human characteristics.


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom

Total posts: 3252
Posted:The teachings are very clear, very simple.

No one with a 'pure heart' could condone the way we in the west treat animals.

I'm definitly not humanising animals, simply pointing out that they are sentient i.e. have consciousness and can feel pain.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom

Total posts: 3252
Posted:Just to clarify my position.

I think that vegetarianism is a good thing to aim for.

I think it's wrong to inflict unnecessary pain and suffering on any sentient being, whether human or animal.

However I'm not preaching 100% vegetarian/vegaism for everyone.

My main concern is the situation in the west with its meat industry which slaughters billions of sentient beings per year.

Our strange attitude that as long as we slaughter 'humanely' it's all ok.

If Mike needs a bit of fish oil to keep him healthy, then so be it. If a primitive world hunter gatherer tops a monkey for his supper- that's ok.

But, in the 'civilised' west, where it's known for a fact that meat is not necessary for health (with the exception of people like Mike and his fish oil), I find it sickening that we breed, objectify, imprison, abuse and then kill, billions of sentient beings for the purpose of consuming their flesh.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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Dunc
GOLD Member since Aug 2003

Dunc

playing the days away
Location: The Middle lands, United Kingd...

Total posts: 7263
Posted:well said Dave clap

Let's relight this forum ubblove

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Xopher (aka Mr. Clean)


enthusiast
Location: Hoboken, New Jersey, USA

Total posts: 456
Posted:I don't think anyone here would argue against more humane treatment of meat animals. That's a pure good - it costs more, but I'd be perfectly happy if the meat producers passed that cost on to consumers. If meat is more expensive, then fewer people will eat it. (Of course, agribusiness meat producers wouldn't be happy, because they want to sell as much meat as they possibly can, but making them miserable goes on the "good" side of the ledger too...'cause I'm a nasty vindictive type.)

"If you didn't like something the first time, the cud won't be any good either." --Elsie the Cow, Ruminations

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:The reason I don't eat commercially-farmed beef is because of the way it's done in this country. It's cruel to the animals, sure, but it's also really horrible for the environment on a number of levels. The pollution is the most obvious one, what with all the energy loss involved in meat production from a biochemical level, the methane produced by the cows, the run-off, and the fossil fuels burned transporting feed and stuff around.

But then there are the antibiotics (not the hormones, but specifically the antibiotics). These breed bacterial resistance, and these bacteria can infect and make people ill. The poultry industry has been breeding a lot of resistant strains of Salmonella.

(As for the hormones, the hormones given are by injection, they are protein hormones that are not absorbed across the GI tract and are found in only very low levels in the animal flesh, anyways. As proteins, they are degraded by enzymes in the human GI tract and, contrary to popular hysteria, there is ZERO evidence that there is any absorption or effect on humans.)

So I will only eat organically raised meat. Which is why dropping vegetarianism isn't going to change my diet much. Organic meat is expensive.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Total posts: 2830
Posted:So OWD, by your definitions both the Buddha and the Dalai Lama would not have 'pure hearts' because they were/are as not vegetarians.

I suppose it depends on how u cook it, but Lightning do you think that there is a risk of getting worms or other parasites from organic meat?


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Sunrise


Ivetka


Total posts: 211
Posted:ok i eat fish fingers sometimes...ooooops

meat as chicken,beef,pork...or so i dont eat about 2 years...

my parents they doesnt like so when i came back from england to my home country for a while,they wanted me to start eat it..

after couple of mounths what i was listen them talk about how is not good that i eat fish meat only,i tried to eat a small piece of chicken and pig meat,i really didnt like it anymore...so i dont eat it...dont know if its good or bad..but i feel ok with it...
smile


sunny
grouphug

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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom

Total posts: 3252
Posted:Written by: Stone

So OWD, by your definitions both the Buddha and the Dalai Lama would not have 'pure hearts' because they were/are as not vegetarians.





No, I don't recall saying anything like that.

I was simply stressing that the concept of a 'pure heart' is incredibly vague, especially to people who don't have it.

It's especially open to abuse and misinterpretian by those who wish to consider themselves as practicing buddhists, but who don't wish to put in the necessary hard work, intense self examination and honesty necessary for true practise.

I was pointing out that it is more practical to approach it by the very clear and consise guidelines given in buddhism, concerning the four noble truths and the eightfold path.

These are not vague, and give specific and practical advice as to how life should be lived according to buddhist principles.

Following them will guide one towards having a 'pure heart', but this is a goal of practice, not a basis for it.

Also, I'm not saying that it's impossible to eat meat and have a 'pure heart'.

But the buddhist teachings are very clear- avoid causing unnecessary harm to sentient beings, and, in buddhism, animals are considered sentient.

That's very clear, very simple. Any argument to the contrary that uses the concept of a 'pure heart' as it's basis, is undoubtably taking advantage of the aforementioned vagueness of 'pure heart'.

Lastly, I'd like to point out again that I'm not so much talking about eating meat but, am referring to the present meat industry.

When the buddha lived, 2,500 years ago in India, there's a world of difference between the lives and deaths of farm animals then, and the scale and horror of the way we treat animals.

Today we in the west also have the benefit of plentiful nutritious non meat foods and the scientific knowledge that eating flesh is not necessary for health; yet we abuse and slaughter billions of sentient beings every year, simply to consume their flesh.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:Stone, the risks from meat are infection, which can be generally avoided by cooking whole cuts of meat at least medium-rare. Whole cuts of meat are sterile on the inside.

Ground meat introduces bacteria into the middle of the meat, so it should be fully cooked (at least medium-well) all the way through.

Of course, there is no way to avoid getting PrP (the prion that causes "Mad Cow Disease") other than avoiding all beef.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Xopher (aka Mr. Clean)


enthusiast
Location: Hoboken, New Jersey, USA

Total posts: 456
Posted:And even then, if you eat human brains, you can still get it!!!

(That should really be the ending of one of those silly zombies-eating-brains movies...they all get BSE and die...deader. Or whatever.)


"If you didn't like something the first time, the cud won't be any good either." --Elsie the Cow, Ruminations

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:Fortunately, PrP is found in low concentrations in muscles (it is restricted to nerves, which are found in muscle, but in low density) and even if it is an infected animal, the transmission rate is much less than 1% per exposure. The barriers are that the protein has to 1) cross the intestinal wall and 2) has to bind to and alter human proteins (remember, this is a cow protein). So between these two unlikely events, very few people actually get infected with PrP

Having said that, variant CJD ("Mad Cow") SUCKS. And it takes a year or so to kill you.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Xopher (aka Mr. Clean)


enthusiast
Location: Hoboken, New Jersey, USA

Total posts: 456
Posted:OK, I know BSE, which stands for Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy, from the fact that your brain turns into Baby Swiss. What does CJD stand for? (You said what it IS - Mad Cow - but what do the letters stand for?)

"If you didn't like something the first time, the cud won't be any good either." --Elsie the Cow, Ruminations

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:CJD stands for Crudzfelt-Jacob Disease, which is different from BSE only in that CJD happens in humans and BSE happens in cows. CJD is actually a sporadic disease that rarely happens in older patients (60's and older) and progresses somewhat slowly (5 year course). vCJD is variant CJD, or the transmissible form of BSE that goes to humans. It happens in younger patients (well, technically in patients of all ages, which lowers the mean age of presentation) and progresses more rapidly.

-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Xopher (aka Mr. Clean)


enthusiast
Location: Hoboken, New Jersey, USA

Total posts: 456
Posted:<sigh> They couldn't just call it HUMAN Spongiform Encephalopathy, could they? That would make too much sense, and not give Crudzfelt and Jacob their egoboo for having described it.

"If you didn't like something the first time, the cud won't be any good either." --Elsie the Cow, Ruminations

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MiG
GOLD Member since Apr 2004

MiG

Self-Flagellation Expert
Location: Bogged at CG, Australia

Total posts: 3415
Posted:I thought that we needed the iron from meat, or we got deficient?

"beg beg grovel beg grovel"
"master"
--FSA

"There was an arse there, i couldn't help myself"
--Rougie

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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom

Total posts: 3252
Posted:There's lots of non meat sources of iron.

The fact that there are many healthy vegetarians who don't use supplements pretty much shows that meat is not necessary for health.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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Xopher (aka Mr. Clean)


enthusiast
Location: Hoboken, New Jersey, USA

Total posts: 456
Posted:MiG, eat spinach. Or you can saute in a cast-iron skillet, and you'll never be iron-deficient. I've also heard that Guinness is loaded with iron, but this may be apocryphal!

Also, men tend to have the problem of getting TOO MUCH iron, rather than too little: it can lead to strokes and heart attacks. Men and women just shouldn't eat the same diet, really.


"If you didn't like something the first time, the cud won't be any good either." --Elsie the Cow, Ruminations

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flid
BRONZE Member since Aug 2002

flid

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Warwickshire, United Kingdom

Total posts: 3136
Posted:you may also wanna remove your email address from your sig if you want to avoid shed loads of spam

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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Total posts: 2830
Posted:Thanks for your patience OWD. I will check out the four noble truths and the eightfold path smile

Lightning, that's a good point about Mad Cow Disease. Poor animal husbandry practices, often motivated by greed, have led to have led to pathogens crossing species. As with CJD, avian flu and even perhaps HIV/AIDS (not sure).

MiG, spinach is a source of iron, but you have to eat a large amount of spinach compared to meat, for an equal amount of iron.


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:Ok, first of all, cooking in a cast-iron pan is NOT the answer to iron deficiency. Elemental iron is not absorbed from the gut and the amount that gets into the food from the pan is miniscule.

However, iron is found in many sources, including spinach, beets, etc. In fact, for a healthy young man, the daily requirement of iron is pretty small because healthy young men don't lose much iron. Young women, because they menstruate, need more iron.

The other vegetarian option if there is truly an iron deficiency (and we do see this, most often in vegetarian young women), is iron sulfate tablets taken with vitamin C. Iron sulfate is the best non-organic form of iron for absorption, and ascorbic acid (Vitamin C) increases the absorption of iron from the GI tract. Iron sulfate is made from non-meat sources.

Xopher, you CAN overdo on iron, but generally, you have to be taking supplements. The body is pretty good about regulating its iron absorption since there is no physiological mechanism for iron excretion.

As for B-12, it is a sticky one. Nutritional yeast and sources like Marmite are really your best bet. Certain unwashed legumes can also have it, but otherwise, vegan sources are scarce.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Total posts: 2830
Posted:Lightning, care to expand on your statement that "certain unwashed legumes can also have it (B-12)". As most pulses (grain legumes for human consumption) need to washed and soaked to get rid of toxins before consumption. A notable exception being split red lentils.



Until I read this thread, I was under the impression that B-12 was fairly difficult to obtain from non meat sources, remembers something about cobalt processing or sumthing.



I think the "cast-iron pan" was a bit of a joke. Like telling someone to hammer nails into a tree to correct iron deficiency in the tree.





If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Faberg
GOLD Member since Aug 2003

veteran
Location: Dublin, Ireland

Total posts: 1459
Posted:Written by: Xopher
I've also heard that Guinness is loaded with iron, but this may be apocryphal!



Post operative patients used to be given Guinness in hosptials here, as were blood donors & mothers who had just given birth. It's still made available to blood donors.

The Guinness site however mentions nothing about its iron content.....

The VHI have this to say about it though.

So you see it's our hostipals fault we're a nation of drinkers ubbloco

Slinte beerchug


My mind not only wanders, it sometimes leaves completely smile

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Faberg
GOLD Member since Aug 2003

veteran
Location: Dublin, Ireland

Total posts: 1459
Posted:Written by: Stone
MiG, spinach is a source of iron, but you have to eat a large amount of spinach compared to meat, for an equal amount of iron.



Apricots biggrin


My mind not only wanders, it sometimes leaves completely smile

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Xopher (aka Mr. Clean)


enthusiast
Location: Hoboken, New Jersey, USA

Total posts: 456
Posted:Wow, and I totally believed the cast-iron skillet thing...the theory wasn't elemental iron, but that iron compounds would be formed in the cooking process. No, huh?

"If you didn't like something the first time, the cud won't be any good either." --Elsie the Cow, Ruminations

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