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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:So I've now been a vegetarian for almost 3 years. I originally became a vegetarian because I realized I was a meat addict. There are also environmental concerns. Ethical concerns are way down on my list since I find it gets confusing for me to strongly support animal research for medical applications while opposing using animals for food. Especially because I'm not vegan.

But the final decision happened, not coincidentally, on the first day of Gross Anatomy dissection lab. ubblol

So after 3 years of almost total abstinence from meat (I'll eat meat if there is no other feasable option), I think I'm pretty much de-addicted. The idea of eating a large steak is just not at all appetizing to me.

BUUUUT, this vegetarian business is getting very inconvenient. It makes people stress over where to go for dinner, or what to cook for me. Furthermore, it significantly limits what I can order at a restaurant, and I can't stand it when the only vegetarian options on a menu feature zucchini and mushrooms (two of my least favorite foods).

So I'm starting to debate whether to de-classify myself as a vegetarian and just carry on with life eating very little meat. And by "very little" I mean less than one serving of meat a week. Since my initial reasons were for health, I don't see how this small amount of meat (which, when consumed, will preferably be organic) would change my risk factors. And such miniscule meat consumption wouldn't have much environmental impact. Besides, I have an unfortunate tendency towards anemia.

What do you think?


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Total posts: 2830
Posted:Written by:
OWD said: Time to take the advice I gave to someone else several pages back and stick to discussing this with people who are genuinely interested in considering switching to vegetarianism.



I didnt know the aim of this thread was to convert people to vegetarianism.


Does that mean that you are considering opening another thread where there is no discussion. Like the one limited to talking about the good points of religion with no peer group review?


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom

Total posts: 3252
Posted:Not at all, discussion is good .

But after long discussion with some people I reach the conclusion that no ones moving forward or benefiting; that nothing either one says is going to bring about anything constructive.

Posting intelligent, well thought out stuff takes time and energy- I feel that we're very much going in circles and that I'm wasting my time.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Total posts: 2830
Posted:cool

Suggest having a cup of chai to revive the spirits.

CU


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:OWD, I started the thread. Remember? And I started it with a statement that I was switching away from vegetarianism.

I think I like this discussion open.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom

Total posts: 3252
Posted:Are you implying that I want it closed?



Because I've not said anything to suggest that I do.



What I said was that-



Written by: onewheeldave


OK, I think that I've had enough for now smile











i.e. everyone else is more than welcome to continue, and, when I feel that I can say something useful again, I'll do so.



I'm happy to debate as long as I feel that it's either enjoyable or constructive.



Recently it's been neither; I feel that the main people I'm 'debating' with are primarily interested in debate as conflict/devils advocacy, and that, while they are responding to my posts, they are not putting as much effort into reading them as I would like.



(it goes without saying that I realise they may well feel the same about me, in which case, all the more reason to leave it for a while).



This thread has had its ups and downs, currently IMO its in a hole.



But it's 19 pages long and probably the best HOP vegetarianism thread ever, I'm sure it will pick up again in the near future, and, hopefully, by me stepping out of the current sniping match, it will develop in a more productive direction.



Some new blood would be good smile


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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Spanner
BRONZE Member since Feb 2003

Spanner

remembers when it was all fields round here
Location: in the works... somewhere..., ...

Total posts: 2790
Posted:Written by: onewheeldave

I'm happy to debate as long as I feel that it's either enjoyable or constructive.

Recently it's been neither; I feel that the main people I'm 'debating' with are primarily interested in debate as conflict/devils advocacy, and that, while they are responding to my posts, they are not putting as much effort into reading them as I would like.




I've been feeling the same way.

Thanks for contributing, OWD. I hope to see you back here if this thread turns towards being constructive again smile


"I thought you are man, but
you are nice woman.

yay,

:R"

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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom

Total posts: 3252
Posted:Cheers Spanner, I appreciate that smile

And yes, I will definitly be keeping an eye on the thread and will happily join in again when I feel it is appropriate.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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Twirly


Twirly

Shoryuken!
Location: Hexham, Newcastle, England

Total posts: 233
Posted:Yeah, if it gets worthwhile again I'm all fingers.

Haha I feel like some bloody eagle or something.


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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Total posts: 2830
Posted:Here is one to think about. Hope its ok Lightning, as its more an animal libber one than a vegetarian one.

Council bans goldfish bowls. Pet owners in the northern Italian city of Monza, best known for its Formula 1 Grand Prix, have become the first in Italy to be banned from keeping their goldfish in bowls. The town council passed a ruling "on the treatment of domestic animals, which will go into effect in a fortnight", council official Giampietro Mosca said.

Is this ruling over the top or wot?


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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kiteman


Flying high!
Location: At the beach.

Total posts: 245
Posted:If god didn't want us to eat animals he wouldn't have made them out of meat.

If everything seems under control, your not going fast enough!

It's not the size of the wave, it's the length of the ride!

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TeeJay


TeeJay

member
Location: Malaeimi, Am. Samoa

Total posts: 75
Posted:I've got chickens...I love them dearly.
Their names are Maggie and Cluck.
I used to have four chickens - Sherry and Henny.
My dog got Henny , and Maggie and Cluck began beating up on Sherry.
Sherry ended up in the soup pot, which was quicker and less cruel than leaving her to her sisters - she was almost bald in the end.

Meat eating seems cruel only if you have lost touch with nature....if there are no carnivores, death can be very cruel.

Teejay


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TeeJay


TeeJay

member
Location: Malaeimi, Am. Samoa

Total posts: 75
Posted:One more reply - a little more to point....
I live in what is for most residents here a third world country.
I also have two daughters who decided on vegetarianism.
One ended up in the hospital here getting a blood due to acute anemia, the other (in the States) has also been found anemic.

As for it being cheaper to raise vegetables and grain than meat - I know first hand that in island countries at least, this is not true.
In (Western) Samoa, we have cattle - they feed on wild brush and forage for water as do wild animals - the only difference is that they are fenced in and that they are "helped" (we gather water for them during drought and suppliment their food).
We also have tons of chickens - all wild. They roost in the trees at night, we leave boxes ans such in safe places and they lay their eggs there. When a hen gets old, a rooster too nasty or mean, they end up soup. This causes the rest of the flock less suffering. Cows get culled the same way .
As far as vegetables - it takes MUCH more space to grow any crop....taro does okay, as well as banana, eggplant, and breadfruit. But you will never find a native Polynesian diet that is vegetarian - simply because complete proteins and B vitamins are impossible to obtain with a "natural" diet here.
If you study truly primitive societies, you will find meat was always eaten. In Polynesia - it would have been impossible to sustain a vegetarian diet on native foods.
The "primitive" diet consisted of fish, chicken, dog, pig, taro, banana, papaya, tapioca, mango, and seaweed.

Pretty much true throughout the world, it's hard to sustain a vegetarian diet on indiginous foods. I have a friend who spend a fortune importing foods for her vegetarian lifestlye - she's very thin and always sick.\

"Life away from the modern world for a week can cure most anything"

Teejay


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Tao Star


Tao Star

Pooh-Bah
Location: Bristol

Total posts: 1662
Posted:i think a reoccouring point here is that the meat eating is much more acceptable (especially to people who are vegetarian for moral reasons) if the meat source is natural and uncruel.

i try not to eat meat unless i know where it's come from, this means that i'm basically vegetarian most of the time until i go home to somerset & can but meat from friends' farms. so the diets described in the post above probably would be ok to some of the vegetarians here, but sadly in this country and others like it, the animals do not arrive on our plates in such a natural way, and being vegetarian is the only way for a lot of people to stick to their morals.


I had a dream that my friend had a
strong-bad pop up book,
it was the book of my dreams.

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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Total posts: 2830
Posted:Thanks for sharing your realistic and insightful examples TeeJay. I agree that much of the world is carbohydrate rich (rice/wheat) and protein deficient (pulses- beans, peas. lentils etc.), and meat is essential to provide the protein necessary for a healthy diet. And I cant think of what pulse crops they would grow in countries where rice is the staple.



Back to the moral vegetarians. Im still wondering how moral vegetarians can justify keeping meat eating pets like cats?



Im also wondering how the anti GMO vegetarians are going to survive when the majority of the worlds soy bean production is based on GM cultivars?



Hmmmmmmmm.


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom

Total posts: 3252
Posted:Written by: Tao Star

i think a reoccouring point here is that the meat eating is much more acceptable (especially to people who are vegetarian for moral reasons) if the meat source is natural and uncruel.




Very true.

I mentioned some pages back that, I personally, have no quibble with primitive cultures taking meat eg hunter gatherers, either in the distant past or in the present.

For those in primitive conditions meat can be essential to survival; an extreme example would be eskimos living in a place where there is no vegetation whatsoever.

I simply maintain that those factors do not apply in the technologised west

Also, morally speaking, there is a distinction between an animal being killed and eaten as a culmination of its life spent in the wild, and the lives of animals raised as part of the western meat production process.

TeeJays points about animals being cheaper than plant crops are true in cases where the animals are roaming free as part of the landscape. Here, though the fact remains that they are consuming large amounts of vegetation to produce relatively small amounts of flesh, this is offset by the fact that the vegetation is wild growing and generally not edible by humans.

I'm sure a little reflection will show that this does not apply in the west.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:Written by: TeeJay

When a hen gets old, a rooster too nasty or mean, they end up soup.



This reminds me of a funny moment on Emeril. He was showing how to do a beer-marinated chicken and when he put the chicken in the beer brine, he said, "Now he's happy! When I go, soak me in beer!" ubblol


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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TeeJay


TeeJay

member
Location: Malaeimi, Am. Samoa

Total posts: 75
Posted:Hehe -

I usually soak ME in beer before I cook the chicken........especially if it's a chicken I know....

javascript:void(0)


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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Total posts: 2830
Posted:Actually, I find this reoccurring point that meat eating is much more acceptable (especially to people who are vegetarian for moral reasons) if the meat source is natural and uncruel, a bit fanciful if not hypocritical.

What is a natural meat source? Does it for example mean eating wild, possibly endangered animals? To me its a bit like the housewife in the television ad that says its natural, so it must be good. Remembering that strychnine is a natural product, as are many other poisons.

What is meant by an uncruel meat source? Farmers are not cruel by nature, and sheep and cows grazing grass in paddocks have a very idyllic life. So, I suppose it depends on the experience of the person holding the knife, but I doubt there would be any difference in the pain experienced by animals killed naturally or unnaturally. Or to put it another way, is it any less uncrule to kill an animal in a purpose built abattoir, compared to killing an animal by chasing it around a stockyard with a knife?

I dont really see any distinction, morally speaking or not, between an animal being killed and eaten as a culmination of its life spent in the wild, and the lives of animals raised as part of the western meat production process. As in both situations animals are killed and eaten, except perhaps that an animal living in the wild could be endangered. Remembering, that we have been domesticating animals for thousands of years, and domestication is now part of the natural process.

I would suggest that all the western meat production process does is provide meat to people living in big cities. The real issue being population growth. Big cities incidentally, can occur in both the east and the west, so I really dont see the point.


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom

Total posts: 3252
Posted:I guess there's a scale of cruelty that humans inflict on animals; at one end we have primitive cultures who hunt an animal in the wild, which has led its life in nature.

At the other end we have battery hens packed into spaces so small that they can't flap their wings, who have their beaks burnt off because their lives are so horrific that they peck at the others around them and turn cannibal.

The issue here isn't the end of their lives (you're right that an animal killed in the wild can suffer greatly), but the whole of their lives.

Along the way are the other forms of western meat production, and certainly I, if sheep are indeed living 'idyllic lives in the pastures' have no objections.

There's other scales involved on the moral issue, for example, need and luxury.

Primitives have a need for meat (to survive), most westerners have no need (with the exeption of some who need it for medical reasons), but eat it for luxury or out of habit.

-------

Lastly Stone, I've mentioned my frustration and feelings that in the past you've not invested as much effort into reading my replies as I would like.

This is not good for me, or for you. There's no point putting the whole blame on your shoulders, I'm sure that I'm also responsible.

Nevertheless, I feel we should address it, otherwise I'll end up not responding to your questions at all, so I'll request that, if you respond to the above reply, that you address or acknowledge what I've said there, rather than just come up with a new set of objections.

And, if you perhaps feel that I'm not giving sufficient respect to your points, feel free to point that out as well.

Given some of the other misunderstandings that have arisen on this board in recent weeks, and the tone on this thread, I think it's important to at least make an attempt at addressing this.

Respect,

Dave.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Total posts: 2830
Posted:Umm, me guilty of skimming the odd post, never ubbangel

Ok from the top:

Battery hens are primarily used for egg production, not meat. Even so, it is a misconception to say that their lives are so horrific that they peck at the others and turn cannibal. Pecking, as in pecking order, is a natural occurrence. And birds will peck regardless of their housing arrangements. Not sure about cannibalism, perhaps if a bird dies?

Have you ever been into a cage house to witness the happiness of the birds? I would suggest that the birds are probably a lot happier than a photograph would show. What may seem cruel to you or I, is not necessarily how a bird feels.

In Australia, most livestock is grazed on open pastures (not many feedlots) and I have often thought that domesticated animals have pretty good lives. No stress, with plenty of food and water, grazing under the sun; its a cow life.

Meat is a luxury, and I think we are a bit complacent when it comes to acknowledging how our meat is produced, and we eat far too much meat. However, I maintain that a small amount of meat in the diet is important for health. My point here is that meat is necessary because it is a natural source of Vitamin B 12, and it is natural to eat meat.

Contrary to popular belief, while Marmite is a rich source of the vitamin B complex; vitamin B12 is not naturally found in yeast extract, but is added to Marmite during manufacture.


smile


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom

Total posts: 3252
Posted:I'd say the pecking thing is again a matter of scale.

I agree that some pecking is inevitable whatever the housing.

But in battery houses and free range barns the majority of birds are debeaked as a matter of course.

I'm happy for animals to lead idyllic lives on the farm, but I'm not happy with a system in which the burning off of beaks is a matter of course.

Basically I'm content to eat eggs that come from chickens that have genuine access to free run outside.

I will not eat eggs that come from chickens that have had their beaks burnt off.

And I would like to see such practices acknowledged as being immoral, and for them to be made illegal.

-----------------

I agree with you that a small amount of meat in the diet is not necessarily a bad thing.

I know that it is not essential for health as I, and many others live healthy lives without it.

I do however, qualify my beliefs with the fact that, for some, it may be essential (eg medical reasons, or those who tend to become anemic etc)

It would be good if you did something similar when you say, as you have on several occasions, that some meat is important for health.

Because, for many, it obviously isn't that important.

As for marmite, when it hits the shelves it's got B12 in it, whether its a part of the process, or added during manufacture, the important thing is that it has B12, and is thus of value to vegans (who eat no animal produce)


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Total posts: 2830
Posted:

I know that it is not essential for health as I, and many others live healthy lives without it. (meat)





Thats a big statement. How do you know meat is not essential? I think thats a bit subjective, even speculative, to say meat is not essential for health, based on you assumption that because you and others appear to live healthy lives without meat. You would not know how healthy you could be in comparison, if you did include a small amount of meat, nor do you know the long term consequences of a particular vegetarian diet. Agreed, its a bit hard to prove one way or the other. But to me, its like bit like saying it is ok to use a certain illicit drug because me and my friends are not suffering any side effects at the present.





U have edited your post so some of my comments may be out of date.

EDITED_BY: Stone (1091067413)


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Total posts: 2830
Posted:

It would be good if you did something similar when you say, as you have on several occasions, that some meat is important for health.

Meat is packed with essential minerals that a vegetarian may lack if not careful. Check any vegetarian web site.



I would suggest that beak-trimming looks worse than it actually is. Recent evidence in Australia and from Europe indicates that beak-trimming at hatch or soon after results in little long term pain and research suggests that beak-trimming at this age will reduce injurious feather pecking and cannibalism in later life (Australian literature review, long pdf file). Even if this practice still seems unacceptable then you can avoid poultry products, which is different to avoiding all meat products.



The point about the marmite was that if you need supplements then it is not natural (natural being what is found in nature). To my mind, it seems appropriate to consume products where these vitamins occur naturally ie.meat, compared to what I suspect are artificial supplements.


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:Marmite isn't supplemented with B-12. It has it naturally.

I would still argue that a non-meat centered diet is more healthy than a meat-centered one. There are no nutrients that are found exclusively in meat that are required for health or life.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Total posts: 2830
Posted:Lightning, if you suggest that Marmite is a natural source of B-12, then u need provide a source.


'Vegans are recommended to ensure their diet includes foods fortified with vitamin B12. A range of B12 fortified foods are available. These include yeast extracts, Vecon vegetable stock, veggieburger mixes, textured vegetable protein, soya milks, vegetable and sunflower margarines, and breakfast cereals." (vegetarian society). Also see other link Marmite for more info on B12 and Marmite.

Im not arguing for a meat centered diet. I think we eat way too much meat, but I think that including some meat in the diet is acceptable.

I would be very interested in any comments on the following meat based diet, available as a pdf file from this site: CSIRO Total Well Being Diet



smile


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom

Total posts: 3252
Posted:Written by: Stone








Thats a big statement. How do you know meat is not essential? I think thats a bit subjective, even speculative, to say meat is not essential for health, based on you assumption that because you and others appear to live healthy lives without meat. You would not know how healthy you could be in comparison, if you did include a small amount of meat, nor do you know the long term consequences of a particular vegetarian diet. Agreed, its a bit hard to prove one way or the other. But to me, its like bit like saying it is ok to use a certain illicit drug because me and my friends are not suffering any side effects at the present.







What I'm saying is that meat is not essential for health in my case and the case of the many vegetarians/vegans in the world who are healthy.



As I, and they are healthy, that shows that meat is not essential for health.



Once again you're trying to fudge the issue by asking how I know we couldn't be healthier.



We're healthy and we don't eat meat, many of us for decades or even lifetimes (to address your query about the long term consequences)- that constitues very strong practical evidence that meat is not essential for health.



Could we be even healthier if we ate some meat?



I don't know, but-



a. it's not relevant as I was pointing out that meat is not essential for health (ie 'superhealth' wasn't a factor in what I was talking about)



b. the existence of successful vegetarian atheletes would suggest that extremely high levels of, if not necessarily health, then certainly muscular and cardiovascular fitness, can be built and maintained on a non-meat diet. Given the stress imposed on the immune systems of competing atheletes by the training, for vegetarian atheletes to be successful would suggest that they must, as well as being very fit, also be healthy.



Could you reflect on what I'm saying about 'fudging'?



It would have been nice if you'd at least acknowledged my point that meat is not essential for heath, before you slipped in the stuff about degrees of health.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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Faberg
GOLD Member since Aug 2003

veteran
Location: Dublin, Ireland

Total posts: 1459
Posted:Dave, i agree with you 100%.

i became a vegetarian at about 15 years of age. i'm now 34. i also don't eat eggs, as aside from the de-beaking issue, i cannot except the fact that ALL male chicks are suffocated or gassed or ground up (sometimes alive) at a day old.

i'm probably a little overweight for my height, but i eat chocolate almost every day, so i know the cause of it smile

with the exception of breaking 1 tooth through a fall a number of years ago, my teeth are fine, i DO NOT have 1 filling, nor have i ever had a toothache. (believe me, that's a rarity in a 34 year old)

i do a lot of hiking & trekking at the weekends and am heading off to the himalayas this october. i also practise tai chi & chi gung every day.

i woudn't necessarily call myself a health freak, as i can be as lethargic as the next person from time to time, but i resent being told that eating meat is essential in order to maintain good health!

with regard to longterm consequences, i'd like to give another example.

a friend of mine, who is 37, has been a vegetarian since she was in her mid teens. she met and married a vegetarian, and they have brought up 2 perfectly healthy children on a vegetarian diet. their son is 14, almost 5' 8" in height and plays on nearly every sportsteam at school. as is usual with kids, they will get sick and have to attend the doctor, but never once have my friends been told by their gp that either of their children were lacking in any vitamin or mineral. so i do believe that with a little extra care and attention paid to the foods we eat, meat is not essential in order to maintain good health.

and just to close off, i'd like to clear something up about the vitamin B12 issue.

stone, do you realise that both meateaters and veggies alike obtain most of their vitamin B12 from fortified foodstuffs?

you've made a continuous point that a 'small' amount of meat is naturally required by our bodies as animal products are the only natural source of vitamin B12.

a small amount of meat often doesn't provide you with 100% of the RDA of B12, so you unless you're big into eating liver every day, most non-veggies also obtain most of their vitamin B12 intake from fortified foods such as milk & cornflakes for breakfast tongue

peace & love peace

Lisa


My mind not only wanders, it sometimes leaves completely smile

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:Actually, I'm mistaken. Marmite does have B-12 added. Nutritional yeast is a natural source, though.

-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Total posts: 2830
Posted:OWD said Could you reflect on what I'm saying about fudging?

lol: Dave, read the thread from the beginning and you tell me about fudging. Yes, Ive picked up a few points along he way. You guys really had me worried with that morning glory one. Then, what was that analogy about serving the flesh of humans in restaurants. The infamous black and white photos. Or all the other religious, emotive and unscientific arguments presented to justify your cause. Bottom line: I am not a cannibal and I do have the right to speak on injustice.

Faberge, I got my info on B12 from the vegetarian society ie. reliable unfortified sources of vitamin B12 are meat, dairy products and eggs. Yes a small point, and perhaps less relevant now than in a previous discussion on the origins of omnivores/carnivores. However, the point shows that humans need animal products to satisfy their dietary requirements, without supplements. Might I also remind people that battery houses are used for egg production, as this is another emotive card that is often played indiscriminatively.

By my calculations you would probably need to eat about 10 - 50 g of Marmite a day to satisfy the B 12 requirement.
Vit B 12 requirement for teenagers & adults (1.2 - 1.5ug/day)
Yeast extracts contains b/t 2 - 50ug/100g B 12.

A bit of history. Vegetarianism is not new. The word "vegetarian" was invented in 19th century. Early Greek thinkers advocated a vegetarian diet in reaction to over-indulgence in animal flesh and wine. Excesses finally gave birth to the vegetarian movement in both Greece and Rome. Pythagoras (6th century B.C.) argued for vegetarianism on the basis of transmigration of souls between humans and animals. Plato (5th-4th centuries B.C.) drew sharp distinction between the rational soul of humans and appetitive soul of animals and claimed that superior rational humans naturally rule over inferior appetitive animals. He characterized animal existence as "beastly", sexually wanton, lawless, murderous, and warlike, but was sympathetic to vegetarianism as an ideal. Aristotle (4th century B.C.) claimed that animals with a lower type (sensitive) soul are meant to serve the purposes of humans, who have a higher type (rational) soul. This idea has heavily influenced to the present day a Western anthropocentric view of animals (Magel 1989). [South Dakota Uni


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If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:Let us not forget that a good portion of the population of India is vegetarian. And they seem to be reproducing just fine.

-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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