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MikeGinnyGOLD Member
HOP Mad Doctor
13,923 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA


Posted:
So I've now been a vegetarian for almost 3 years. I originally became a vegetarian because I realized I was a meat addict. There are also environmental concerns. Ethical concerns are way down on my list since I find it gets confusing for me to strongly support animal research for medical applications while opposing using animals for food. Especially because I'm not vegan.

But the final decision happened, not coincidentally, on the first day of Gross Anatomy dissection lab. ubblol

So after 3 years of almost total abstinence from meat (I'll eat meat if there is no other feasable option), I think I'm pretty much de-addicted. The idea of eating a large steak is just not at all appetizing to me.

BUUUUT, this vegetarian business is getting very inconvenient. It makes people stress over where to go for dinner, or what to cook for me. Furthermore, it significantly limits what I can order at a restaurant, and I can't stand it when the only vegetarian options on a menu feature zucchini and mushrooms (two of my least favorite foods).

So I'm starting to debate whether to de-classify myself as a vegetarian and just carry on with life eating very little meat. And by "very little" I mean less than one serving of meat a week. Since my initial reasons were for health, I don't see how this small amount of meat (which, when consumed, will preferably be organic) would change my risk factors. And such miniscule meat consumption wouldn't have much environmental impact. Besides, I have an unfortunate tendency towards anemia.

What do you think?

-Mike

Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella



A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura


onewheeldaveGOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom


Posted:
While maybe not strictly relevant to this phase of the thread, I found this page: -



https://www.cbass.com/Hilligenn.htm



which may be inspiring for vegetarians/anyone thinking of becoming veggie, but who have concerns that it may adversely affect health, cause muscle loss or be inadequate for training etc.

"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!


nearly_all_goneSILVER Member
Pooh-Bah
1,626 posts
Location: Southampton, United Kingdom


Posted:
Another good link, thanks Dave

I used to be pescitarian for many years before I became fully vegetarian, primarily for health reasons. But I find it very easy to get the nutrients I got from fish from other sources - I find it less easy to justify eating them morally (personally!!!).

I was wondering - what are peoples opinions of eating animal derivatives? Like Gelatine, stuff like that..? Personally I have to say I do eat them, I don't feel I support the meat trade by occasionally having a sweet and it's the meat trade I have a problem with. Also I do wear leather sometimes, although I try to avoid it wherever possible.

So the question I'm asking is... how strict a vegetarian are you, and why?

What a wonderful miracle if only we could look through each other's eyes for an instant.
Thoreau


FabergGOLD Member
veteran
1,459 posts
Location: Dublin, Ireland


Posted:
i've been called strict by others but i don't see it that way myself.

i don't eat food containing any animal bi-products at all, i.e. gelatine, animal fats etc.

i don't know why, i've just always been that way. i either give something 100% or don't bother. the first thing i do is read the ingredients on every product i buy, i've been doing it for years, it's just second nature at this stage.

i'm not a vegan, just vegetarian, and i also don't eat eggs. i've toyed with the idea of becoming a vegan, but one of my fav foods is cheese (without rennet) and to give up something i really like would in my opinion be very strict indeed.

this means that i also don't buy products containing any egg derivatives either.

call it anal if you will, it's just the way i shop/cook/eat, and i like it that way.

i believe you are what you eat.

i also don't buy anything containing E-numbers. i'm no science buff, so i've no idea what half of them are. i've been told some of them are harmless, but sorry, if i don't know what it is, then it's not going into my body.

it was only fairly recently though that i found out that a huge proportion of E-numbers are actually "non-vegetarian".

here's a fuller list of E-numbers for anyone who's interested.....

they really don't sound like the type of things you want to be eating now do they........

My mind not only wanders, it sometimes leaves completely smile


nearly_all_goneSILVER Member
Pooh-Bah
1,626 posts
Location: Southampton, United Kingdom


Posted:
I wouldn't call it anal at all, I have a lot of respect for people who take it seriously and go to the effort of looking into things like that. One of my best mates is vegan and it's amazing to see how little she can actually buy from shops to eat. She pretty much always cooks everything from scratch, which is really cool but more effort than I'm capable of!

That list is huge (and scary). I'm impressed (and shocked)!

If you are what you eat then I'm a tescos 8-for-99p veggieburger sandwich with cheese and ketchup.

I can live with that

What a wonderful miracle if only we could look through each other's eyes for an instant.
Thoreau


FabergGOLD Member
veteran
1,459 posts
Location: Dublin, Ireland


Posted:
Written by: nearly_all_gone


If you are what you eat then I'm a tescos 8-for-99p veggieburger sandwich with cheese and ketchup.

I can live with that




ubblol ubblol ubblol

just a note on cooking everything from scratch, which is what i do too..... it doesn't always have to be the tremendous amount of effort people suggest.

if i'm cooking something like an oven dish, or even pasta sauce from scratch, of course it involves more effort that just adding water to a packet of dehydrated sawdust, but it makes more sense to make extra. and freeze it.

make 4 times the amount you need. then some day that you don't feel like putting in the effort...... voila! a tasty, nutritious and healthy meal ready in no time smile

My mind not only wanders, it sometimes leaves completely smile


StoneGOLD Member
Stream Entrant
2,830 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia


Posted:
Well, here we go with another unpopular, but well meaning, post on the ignorance of animal libbers, or should that be animal fibbers.

Abercrombie and Fitch have joined a campaign led by the animal rights group PETA to boycott of Australian wool because of objections to a method of preventing blowfly strike in sheep.

To me this is another case of the well meaning drowning out the well informed. Like how many people have seen a fly blown sheep, or have any appreciation of the horrendous pain and suffering a fly blown sheep is subjected to?

Id like to know how many animals are hurt or killed when ignorant "animal righters sitting behind a desk somewhere in an air conditioned office, make objections to things they know nothing about? And what percentage of Australian sheep are mulsed anyhow? I would suggest it is very small, compared to other methods, but it could be seen as part of an integrated approach to flystrike.

Warning the photos at PETA are bad, but nowhere as bad as fly strike.

If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh


onewheeldaveGOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom


Posted:
I don't know anything about fly blown sheep, or the measures used against it, so I can't comment.



But I will comment on the way you make your contempt for those who care for animals very clear ie-



Written by: Stone



Well, here we go with another unpopular, but well meaning, post on the ignorance of animal libbers, or should that be animal fibbers.








surely it would be better to refer to the ignorance of some animal libbers? Presumably you do acknowledge that others are sincere, restrained and tackling genuine issues of unnecessary animal abuse?



I'm sure if you were less aggressive, it would make people more likely to look into the issues you're putting forward.

"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!


MikeGinnyGOLD Member
HOP Mad Doctor
13,923 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA


Posted:
I just was subjected to a tirade by a vegan this week about how:

1) I'm a quack because I'm in medical school.
2) Vitamin B-12 is only necessary if you poison yourself with a non-vegan diet and thus vegans do not require B-12 (or B-complex vitamins in general)
3) The bacteria in the gut, when properly nourished with a vegan diet, can produce all essential amino acids and vitamins.

Now, this vegan is an adult and is entitled to her own medical beliefs, but wow...

The denial that people will go into to justify their pride.

-Mike

Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella



A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura


StoneGOLD Member
Stream Entrant
2,830 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia


Posted:
Oops Dave, I had me farmer Joh hat on when I made that daft, but well meaning post. What I hold in contempt is ignorance. Especially when it is used to back opinions that have enormous ramification on other peoples lives. But then Ive said that many times in this thread.

Also, I think you have to accept the odd generalisation, because from a farmers perspective thats how animal libbers are seen. The other part of that story is the pressure to ban Australian live sheep exports to the Middle-east.

Lightning makes a good point when he says The denial that people will go into to justify their pride. While I dont quite look at it that way, Ive know what he means. I strike many examples of this of this attitude when people talk about organic farming, the holy grail. For example, some people just have no understanding of plant breeding, and stick to almost fairy tale beliefs because thats what they want to believe. For example, old fashioned wheat seed is better than the new modern hybrids. For a start, the new varieties arent hybrids, thats just incorrect, but do you think you can convince an ardent organic supporter of the truth. They don't want to believe anything that challenges their thinking. They just lock themselves in.

Ideologically speaking, I find that I sit with the fruitarians. I believe that life is life, and I dont see a lot of difference between killing a plant or an animal. In both situations life is destroyed. And, as a species, we cant even stop killing each other, let alone other life forms.

Have a nice day wink

If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh


StoneGOLD Member
Stream Entrant
2,830 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia


Posted:
Well OWD, perhaps I should have counted to ten before the last few posts, but coming off a farm and still working in agriculture, Im torn many ways on some of these issues. Not the least being the social consequences for remote rural communities. Anyhow, Im basically a plant person, and I add what I intended to say before I got off track.


One important point that was missed with the definition of flexitarianism, was that they apparently see meat as a side dish or a sauce. Like instead of meat and three veg, you have three veg and a small portion of meat. Now while this sounds like a bit of a wank, its got to be the ultimate compromise. The gradual reduction of meat consumption will take the pressure of factory farms and everyone lived happily ever after.

If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh


onewheeldaveGOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom


Posted:
It's a nice vision, as long as 'everyone' includes the animals smile

The good thing is that if animal produce consumption does go down substantially, then the lesser number of animals could be kept in better conditions.

For example, near me there's a farm which allows its hens genuine free roaming- consequently it can boast that its hens aren't debeaked.

Hopefully, if animal produce consumption does substantially decrease, it will be feasable for this to become the standard way of raising chicks- a mutually symbiotic relationship between humans and the animals they farm.

"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!


_pOp_BRONZE Member
Playing OldSchool Poi
593 posts
Location: amsterdam, Netherlands


Posted:
Written by: Stone


Well, here we go with another unpopular, but well meaning, post on the ignorance of animal libbers, or should that be animal fibbers.

Abercrombie and Fitch have joined a campaign led by the animal rights group PETA to boycott of Australian wool because of objections to a method of preventing blowfly strike in sheep.

To me this is another case of the well meaning drowning out the well informed. Like how many people have seen a fly blown sheep, or have any appreciation of the horrendous pain and suffering a fly blown sheep is subjected to?

Id like to know how many animals are hurt or killed when ignorant "animal righters sitting behind a desk somewhere in an air conditioned office, make objections to things they know nothing about? And what percentage of Australian sheep are mulsed anyhow? I would suggest it is very small, compared to other methods, but it could be seen as part of an integrated approach to flystrike.





as the devil's advocate (not because i disagree with animal rights as you well know, but because I haven't experienced neither flydrysheep nor "the method" first hand) I would like to post this link to a PETA video about this.
NOT only horrible pictures, but also an explanation about the method, what could and does go wrong and why these australian sheep farmers breed this type of sheep that is not suited for the australian climate. (yep, you guessed it: more wool, more money, more profit, so you can buy more things you don't need).
please watch it and make up your own mind.
any documentation that will support stone's argument is welcome here too,
but for now I have to go with PETA's point of view...

meditate eRic.

I'm not normally a religious man, but if you're up there, save me, Superman!


StoneGOLD Member
Stream Entrant
2,830 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia


Posted:
pOp.





Devils advocate or armchair critic?



Firstly, no one in Australia has made any money out of wool for at least twenty years. The farmers that are still left in the industry are in survival mode, and very poor. This question is not about money or profit; its about husbandry.



As far a profits go, I would suspect that companies that join the boycott are just trying to cash in on peoples gullibility.



Perhaps mulsing is anachronistic, but I dont think anyone is calling for it to be banned. They just want anesthetic used, which would be a good compromise if you didnt have to do 5000 sheep before lunch. And, have you ever seen a fly blown sheep? Do you know what that means as far as pain goes?



Perhaps we did bring in the wrong type of English sheep out to Australia. Perhaps we shouldnt have cleared the land and just farmed kangaroos. I dont know, perhaps we should have done a lot of things differently.



What about that climber who gnawed through his arm because that was the only way he could get free? Would he have died if he had been a vegetarian?
EDITED_BY: Stone (1099611214)

If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh


_pOp_BRONZE Member
Playing OldSchool Poi
593 posts
Location: amsterdam, Netherlands


Posted:
no, not an armchair critic when i wrote previous post...
but i'll be one in this one.
just because you gave one side of the argument (it wasn't mentioned before in this thread) I thought it would be good to show the other side as well, if only for argument's sake.
as far as the ban goes, I believe that in that video they try to give alternatives to mulsing like "diet regulation, spray washing or 'simply' breeding another breeds of sheep who are better suited to the hot australian climate".
the anesthetic that you talk about is not offered as an alternative, the lack of it in the mulsing process is named to emphasize the cruelty envolved the the action.

you say: "which would be a good compromise if you didnt have to do 5000 sheep before lunch"
now lets assume that the farmer's only income is the sheep.
he surely wouldn't have to "do 5000 sheep before lunch" every day?
I mean, we all work more than 1 day in a year right? so the work could be spread over a period of time, or did you actually mean that one farmer would own 1.300.000 sheep? (5000 sheep x 52 weeks x 5 working days = 1.300.000 sheep a year). and forgive me for getting sarcastic here...

ofcourse another diet would mean a higher cost. but that's where the goverment should come in and subsidise it. we don't want all the taxmoney to go to the american anti terrorist war anyway, now do we? the other thing would be to raise the prices of the wool. I really dunno. that's why we have experts advising governments, so that we commoners don't have to deal with that part. the only thing we can do is give a signal to those governments to get their act together. and that's what's happening with this ban.
it is not an attempt to cheat people out of their income, it's a signal for the "higher power" to do something about it, and soon!

and about that climber.... what does that have to do with being a vegetarian?
I thought that we made it clear in an earlier stage of this thread that being a vegitarian is about 'having a choice'. and if you have a choice, to choose a cruelty free option. to me it seems that the climber didn't have a choice, and i would have done the same in that situation. it's the old "if i was in a plane crash, I would eat my fellow man to survive" story all over again.

meditate eRic.

I'm not normally a religious man, but if you're up there, save me, Superman!


StoneGOLD Member
Stream Entrant
2,830 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia


Posted:
pOp, I know both sides of the argument.
Like I said armchair critic.
I also put in a link to PETA.
We dont subsidise agriculture much in Australia, its a thing they do in the US and Europe to make up for inefficient production.
The price of wool is set by the export market.
The 5000 before lunch was tongue and cheek to show what its like on a sheep farm, but you missed the point.
Traditionally, sheep farms are called wheat and sheep farms, because they crop as well.
Another diet? Sheep eat grass.
'simply' breeding another breed. Yeah, right.
Like I said its about husbandry.

L8R

If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh


StoneGOLD Member
Stream Entrant
2,830 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia


Posted:
Put it this way pOp, is there enough room for two Devils Advocates? wink

What I was trying to say before, and perhaps thats what you were trying to say as well, is that its good that all parties have a voice.

I think its important that people understand what they are getting into, because well meaning acts can also lead to cruelty. Like when activists decide to free thousands of birds from cage houses, and 90% of birds end up dead.

CU smile

If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh


_pOp_BRONZE Member
Playing OldSchool Poi
593 posts
Location: amsterdam, Netherlands


Posted:
yes exactly. that was my point
as much as i am concerned with the wellbeing of others (and animals),
I am too concerned with the wellbeing of others to act on impuls.
but I do believe you should make yourself heard when you feel injustice has been done.
and i feel strongly to come up with a B answer to an A statement for argument's sake as well.
but that's just me.

meditate eRic.

I'm not normally a religious man, but if you're up there, save me, Superman!


StoneGOLD Member
Stream Entrant
2,830 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia


Posted:
Hows this pOp?

Tuesday
Phasing out of mulesing by 2010 proposed

The wool industry says it hasn't caved in to pressure from animal rights campaigners, by agreeing to phase out the practice of mulesing by 2010.



Wednsday
Wool industry seeks to stop PETA calling for boycotts

The peak industry body for Australian wool growers is seeking an order restraining the animal rights group, People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals, (PETA), from threatening clothing retailers and applying pressure on them to impose a boycott on Australian wool.

If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh


stickmanWorld Champ Procrastinator
580 posts
Location: ||...lost...||


Posted:
ah, thank you ado-p.. this is exactly what i was looking for, but dont have the time not the will and definitely not the patience to read it all..

can you sum it up pls?? biggrin

AdeSILVER Member
Are we there yet?
1,897 posts
Location: australia


Posted:
As a vegetarian who catches and kills her own meat, I have seen australian farms in action (through a cousin who is a wool grader and an uncle who runs a wheat and sheep farm) - label that type of vegetarianism, or not biggrin

I have seen first hand crutching of sheep and have seen first hand what happens to a fly blown sheep.

both are nasty

but in lieu of banning sheep production all together...

ubbidea

hang on, I've just had an idea: lets ban blow flies instead wink

diet regulation and dipping seemed to have been suggested as alternatives (mentioned in the discssion about)

the only suitable diet regulation to avoid fly blown sheep would be to feed the sheep so it doesn't go to the toilet (family friendly site remember). How in the gods name would diet regulation stop a build up of crap around the sheeps behind????

stickmanWorld Champ Procrastinator
580 posts
Location: ||...lost...||


Posted:
Yo respect Ade!! (uh, yea, in da house ubbloco) if i lived in a place where such things as catching and killing wild animals was possible i would become a veggie in that sense too(btw, i hope no one takes offense at the term 'veggie').. i completely disagree with the way animals are treated and confined in the bioindustry (is that an english word confused.. i know its dutch, but hey) and so if i knew the animal was not tortured before eaten, then id have no problem eating meat.. right now i still eat it cuz im addicted.. but sadly in flatsville where i live nearly every square meter is inhabited by humans and so there are hardly any wild animals left ubbcrying

onewheeldaveGOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom


Posted:
Written by: Ade


As a vegetarian who catches and kills her own meat............






??????????????????

Written by: Ade


,the only suitable diet regulation to avoid fly blown sheep would be to feed the sheep so it doesn't go to the toilet (family friendly site remember). How in the gods name would diet regulation stop a build up of crap around the sheeps behind????




I think the problem is that sheep have been bred to enhance wool production- nature/evolution tends not to produce animals whose backside hair is so long that they are prone to lethal fly infestations. (Any species that did so would quickly die out if left to nature).

So, my suggestion would be to use the same breeding tactics to produce sheep that don't have excessive wool/hair in places that will lead to infestation; rather than continuing to breed from stock that is very prone to infestation.

"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!


Sir_Sheepold hand
725 posts
Location: Chester, UK


Posted:
Perhaps the diet problem is when the sheep are turned out from their winter barn to the spring grass. They can 'scour' (diarrhoea) from the abundance of fresh, new grass growth. umm

Spoiling Christmas for small children since 2003.


flidBRONZE Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,136 posts
Location: Warwickshire, United Kingdom


Posted:
Written by:

right now i still eat it cuz im addicted




Surely it's a bit weak and feable to use addiction as an excuse for something that isn't chemically addictive? I could understand if you were talking about nicotine or heroin

stickmanWorld Champ Procrastinator
580 posts
Location: ||...lost...||


Posted:
too true *slaps self*

youre right i have no will power.. i tried not eating meat for a while because of what i said about treatment of animals, but it turned out that i crave something more if i know i cant have it..

Mr MajestikSILVER Member
coming to a country near you
4,693 posts
Location: home of the tiney toothy bear, Australia


Posted:
humans as a species are omnivores, which means we basically eat anything living/ or once living. after knowing thati think vegitarianism is a bit silly but i can understand that people do it simply because they dont like the taste of meat or they disagree with the methods taken to kill the animals. if a person decides to become a vege thats fine, more meat for me, easier survival for me!

"but have you considered there is more to life than your eyelids?"

jointly owned by Fire_Spinning_Angel and Blu_Valley


_pOp_BRONZE Member
Playing OldSchool Poi
593 posts
Location: amsterdam, Netherlands


Posted:
Written by: Mr Majestik


humans as a species are omnivores, which means we basically eat anything living/ or once living.



no we are not. e.g. we cannot eat raw meat. we grew accustomed to it, but still need to cook it to be able to digest.

Written by: Mr Majestik

after knowing thati think vegitarianism is a bit silly



ubblol ubblol ubblol ubblol ubblol (I really don't know what to say to this)

meditate eRic.

I'm not normally a religious man, but if you're up there, save me, Superman!


Mr MajestikSILVER Member
coming to a country near you
4,693 posts
Location: home of the tiney toothy bear, Australia


Posted:
lol, we so could eat raw meat, if we had to survive, anywqay, you get my point that humans have a wide veriety in their diet to maximise survival potential

"but have you considered there is more to life than your eyelids?"

jointly owned by Fire_Spinning_Angel and Blu_Valley


onewheeldaveGOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom


Posted:
Written by: Mr Majestik


.......if a person decides to become a vege thats fine, more meat for me, easier survival for me!




Given that you live in modern day Australia and spend some of your time using high-tech IT equipment and posting on the internet, it seems a little strange that you'd be having 'survival' difficulties.

A certain proportion of meat eaters seem to be living in some kind of fantasy land, where, despite the fact that they live in houses and get their food from a supermarket, seem to be under the impression that eating meat relates to live and death survival scenarios and being manly hunters.

Obviously, none of them can really believe that; but, from some of the things they say and the arguments put forward, it does seem that one some subconscious level they are in that fantasy mindset.

Modern meat farming is nothing to do with nature, or the skill and craft of hunting, or has any connection whatsoever with survival.

It's about production lines where living beings are force fed the cheapest food (generally including waste parts from their own species), steroids/antibiotics, kept in torturously close confinement (not always, but often), slaughtered and used as food for a species (humanity) which has no real biological need for such food (I'm referring to those humans who live in the modern civilised world)

"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!


Mr MajestikSILVER Member
coming to a country near you
4,693 posts
Location: home of the tiney toothy bear, Australia


Posted:
this is true dave, this is why ican understand people become vergos because of the way the animals are treated. it wasnt an arguement it was a joke, i'm from the west and 'surviving' better than a few billion people in other parts of the world. and at the same time providing myself with irrelevant toys like computers. hoorah for hypocricy, when we can see the problem and just talk about it on the net

"but have you considered there is more to life than your eyelids?"

jointly owned by Fire_Spinning_Angel and Blu_Valley


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