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Forums > Social Discussion > Point out what passages are flawed in the bible.

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robotface


member


Total posts: 190
Posted:Buzaruka decided to make this challenge in onewheeldaves "religion a way forward" thread, even though it's been clearly stated that onewheeldave didn't want such activity in his thread so I thought I would take the initiative and create this thread for buzaruka.

Heres my passage and my issue with it Quote:
Leviticus 20:13:
"If a man lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination and they shall surely be put to death."



and in the ten commandments it says though shall not kill.

a flaw? seems to me it is indeed a flaw.


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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:Oh, where to start cataloging the contradictions? Look, it's pointless. The bible was written by many authors. Furthermore, with each transcription, subtle errors were made and so it has changed over time. It has evolved, in quite a literal sense. You have to realize how difficult it is to get a brand new Torah. The entire thing has to be HAND-PAINTED by a special calligrapher. The entire Torah!

After at least 6,000 years since the time of the Dead Sea Scrolls, so many changes have happened that the original (the Dead Sea Scrolls are hardly the original, but simply represent the oldest known version of the Bible) has been lost in the fog of antiquity, but it almost certainly doesn't even remotely resemble the present version.

I think it's silly, arrogant, and just plain stupid to call any particular version of the Bible "infallable." Jews and Christians agree that man is flawed. So certainly over 6,000 years, any Jew or Christian with half a brain cell would be forced to admit that man has flawed the work of God.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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ben-ja-men
GOLD Member since Jun 2003

ben-ja-men

just lost .... evil init
Location: Adelaide, Australia

Total posts: 2474
Posted:oooooo i just want to appologies to those im about to offend (note if your a christian and easily take offense stop reading now, i dont mean this in a serious way just in a ooo quirky logic kinda way) i tryed, i tryed so hard to resist but the urge was to strong

id agree that there are flaws in the translation but hows about this
father = son = holy ghost
i think thats pretty accepted as not a misprint
now according to the bible mary is impregnated by the holy spirit and gave birth to jesus
but
jesus = holy spirit
therefore
jesus got it on with his mum !!!
eek
very un pc i know but hey im the devil biggrin


Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourself, who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous and talented? Who are you NOT to be?

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robotface


member


Total posts: 190
Posted:this thread will also serve as a place to debate the pro's and cons of religion rather then discuss the positives like one wheel dave has stated to be the topic of his thread, here is a reply to stone I wrote in that thread but decided to put here.

Example:church and it's congregation dedicates their time to feeding and houseing the homeless. Church raises money to build affordable houseing in south america. People find joy in their religion and improve their lives. A person following the teaching of the bible does anything they can to help those in need. Are you so jaded you have never noticed these happenings in your community? they happen in mine.

The first example was a lutheran church which my friends father is a pasture at, second example is a baptist church, third example is several people I know who found a way to better their lives via religion, even after trying several other religions or seeking therapy in one form or another. Again in the 4th example it's my friends father who does anything for anyone.

Now, secular organizations and athiests can and do all these things, but how does that negate the religion has done positive? It doesn't.


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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Total posts: 2830
Posted:Yes, robotface these are the traditional examples that I expected to be raised in the other thread. Education is another. Is it religion or the people who do these things?

I think it is fair to define how far people should take a topic, but I think it is over the top to exclude debate in a discussion forum. To me this means that people are only interested in hearing the things that they want to hear, which is typically, when it comes to discussing religion. I could also suggest that a religious forum might be more amenable to these "one-eyed" discussions.

O! Flaws in the bible? I saw a excellent documentary by John McGrath called
It Ain't Necessarily So It examines the archaeology of the early history of Israel and Judah and concludes that the bible is mostly "lies from the false pen of scribes" .



If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Burzaruka


enthusiast


Total posts: 233
Posted:Before I get started here I would like to publically appologise to OWD about the hijacking of his thread, apparently I did not read very carfully and missed where he said that. Thank you Robotface for making this thread.


Robotface, this passage was written after the 10 commandments.

God originally gave one commandment, we broke it.

God then gave 10, we broke them all.

So God gave us books worth of laws... we still manage to keep breaking them.

Hence the 10 commandments though relivent were replaced with a more detailed laws. It also goes on to say that their blood will be on their heads, not the ones who did the actual killing thus making it as if they took their own life. Odd how you left that little part out wink


I am asking for proof not your speculation Lighting. Can't you come up with some fact? C'mon you're a college man, I am just a GED bum... can't you think of something better? Your logic isn't chapter and verse like I asked.

Ben-ja-men, the concept of the Trillogy is a very hard thing to grasp. 3 seperate beings yet 1 in the same. Jesus is both the Holy Spirit and not the Holy Spirit, so yes and no. Honestly it is humorus when you look at it that way, but since when does the God of all creation need to be PC? tongue


Stone, your whole debate useing that mini-series (I take it) is hingent on one man's opinion. On the same type of scientists who discoverd a whole race of primitive man off of a single tooth. Archiology is about as an exact science as those who are trying to discover cold fusion.

I asked for Chapter and Verse


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Dom
BRONZE Member since Dec 2001

Dom

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Bristol, UK

Total posts: 3009
Posted:OK, 'Burzaruka' - I'll play but first your question is not complete.

In order to answer your question anybody needs to very clearly know 2 things:

1) What do you define as a flaw?
2) What version of the Bible or religous scriptures are you refering to?

Point 2 is very, very important and might provide an answer to your question of 'all of it' if point one is too loose.

Ta, and maybe if I get the time I'll play ball.


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duballstar
SILVER Member since Sep 2003

duballstar

slack rating - 9.5
Location: Suburbiton, Yoo-Kay, United Ki...

Total posts: 2216
Posted:you know the Catholic Church has spent centuries trying to sort out flaws and making further contradictions. this thread could go on for some time. being sensible (?) people however i think it's more likely we'd all get bored first... ubbrollsmile

It is our fantasies that make us real. Without our fantasies we're just a blank monkey' - Terry Pratchett

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Dunc
GOLD Member since Aug 2003

Dunc

playing the days away
Location: The Middle lands, United Kingd...

Total posts: 7263
Posted:will get bored? wink

Let's relight this forum ubblove

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Burzaruka


enthusiast


Total posts: 233
Posted:Dom, interesting points I will try to clarify.

1. A flaw is a contradiction, something said in one place and then said differntly in another. A flaw is something that you can show me in the Bible. A flaw is not your opinion about how the Bible has been coppied or translated. It is something that can be shown both chapter and verse.

2. I think this point is a very good one, lets limit the playing field to an NIV (New International Version) Bible, seen as how it is my game and I make the rules, and that it is the Bible I have in front of me wink


duballstar, as long as people keep trying to proove the Bible wrong, I wont get bored, and my ranting and raving should either be quite comical or some other form of entertainment for others wink tongue


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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:Quote:

2. I think this point is a very good one, lets limit the playing field to an NIV (New International Version) Bible, seen as how it is my game and I make the rules, and that it is the Bible I have in front of me wink



The NIV? Ok...



-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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NYC


NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA

Total posts: 9232
Posted:Interesting thread.

I was trapped in a horrible class a few months ago with a teacher that had NO lessonplan for an entire week. I won't bitch about that BUT my only distraction was the bible left in my desk (the classes were given in a Catholic school.)

WOW! I don't care what you think about religion, if you want to really solidify your opinions, READ THE BIBLE!

My impressions of Jesus were TOTALLY changed. (Possibly offensive material ahead... I'm trying to be respectful and I'm sorry if I fail.) I was very surprised by some of the powers that I didn't know Jesus had.

For example, Jesus gets mad at a fig tree because there aren't any figs on it... so he kills it just by touching it. Firstly, I had no idea that Jesus had the power of treekilling. Second, it seemed kind of vengeful from how Jesus was described to me.

Before I offend again... do yourself a favor and read the whole thing yourself.

The "Laws" in the old testement are archaic and brutal. You can rape an unmarried woman if you give her dad some silver. And if you rape a MARRIED woman in a city, and she doesn't fight you off or get help... SHE should be killed WITH you.

And my alltime favorite verse in any religious text: Deuterotomy 23:1: (or is it 24:1)
If your testicles are destroyed in an accident, you can't get into heaven. Period.

Who knew?!


Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
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psycho44
BRONZE Member since Jan 2004

psycho44

member
Location: , USA

Total posts: 56
Posted:in the new testament it says that jesus died for our sins so if someone is saved and they accept jesus christ as their personal savior then that is their ticket to heaven we are all human and we all sin in one way or another. the laws and commandments from the old testament are before jesus sacraficed his life for us.once he died he took on the sins of the world so that we can be forgiven.

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Burzaruka


enthusiast


Total posts: 233
Posted:I couldn't have said it better myself psycho44

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FireSpirit
SILVER Member since Mar 2001

FireSpirit

Classic 90's Fire Dancer... Poi, Staff, Doubles, and Breathing
Location: South Lake Tahoe, USA

Total posts: 743
Posted:I hear ya, but I still feel the bible is missing a few pages!!



For instance; Karma and Rencarnation.



I don't really care to much for orginized religion, but to each his own...



I feel Religion is for folks who fear Hell, where Spirituality is for those who have been there ... Religions have to many rules and regs, I feel that boxes them up from seeing the whole picter, and binds them to their believes, where they can become judgementle, and harsh on others believes.



I feel the 'Truth' is like a Merror, that has been smashed on the ground . All of these little pieces of Truth everywhere, but religions are trying to pull more piecses towards themselves, saying they have the Most Truth! Well you just need to take a step back and see the pieces for yourself.

Alot of Religions Say the Same Things, but then add or subtract what best suits themselves. That is Corrupt!! I say take all of the bits and pieces from all of the religions, and keep everything true and subtract the BS (like having to wear your hair or cloths a cirtain way).







~Fire Spirit


FIRE IS ALIVE!
IT LIVES AND BREATHS!
IT CONSUMES, AND DISTROYS!
BUT WE CONTROL IT,
AND DANCE WITH FIRE!!

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Burzaruka


enthusiast


Total posts: 233
Posted:That really isnt what this topic is about, but I still think you're wrong wink

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Hobbitboy


member
Location: Stoke-on-Trent (England)

Total posts: 33
Posted:Well sed psycho....

You should have used King James Version, so much cooler wink


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Burzaruka


enthusiast


Total posts: 233
Posted:Yeah but I dont have one of those with me, sorry.

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FireSpirit
SILVER Member since Mar 2001

FireSpirit

Classic 90's Fire Dancer... Poi, Staff, Doubles, and Breathing
Location: South Lake Tahoe, USA

Total posts: 743
Posted:Im sorry, If you want I'll start quoting BS out of the Black Book! ubbangel

Or I could pull your Hailo down, and choke you with it? ubblol



FIRE IS ALIVE!
IT LIVES AND BREATHS!
IT CONSUMES, AND DISTROYS!
BUT WE CONTROL IT,
AND DANCE WITH FIRE!!

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Burzaruka


enthusiast


Total posts: 233
Posted:You can try, but I doubt either will work wink

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FireSpirit
SILVER Member since Mar 2001

FireSpirit

Classic 90's Fire Dancer... Poi, Staff, Doubles, and Breathing
Location: South Lake Tahoe, USA

Total posts: 743
Posted:Your not worth it! wink

FIRE IS ALIVE!
IT LIVES AND BREATHS!
IT CONSUMES, AND DISTROYS!
BUT WE CONTROL IT,
AND DANCE WITH FIRE!!

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:Quote:
If your testicles are destroyed in an accident, you can't get into heaven. Period.




Which is sort of true, in a way... ubblol

I mean, you'd definately be in hell... eek


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Burzaruka


enthusiast


Total posts: 233
Posted:I think you're wrong, you think you're right Firespirit, it is nothing to get upset over.

And I tend to agree with Lightning on that one eek


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NYC


NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA

Total posts: 9232
Posted:Is the fact that there are different versions of the Bible suggestive of some sort of flaw and contradiction? If it's THE word of God, wouldn't it be in some universal tongue and not open to several different translations? If any literary work (including the Bible) is translated from one language to another the translation must be inexact as words have different meanings and implications in different languages.

Just a thought.


Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
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Dunc
GOLD Member since Aug 2003

Dunc

playing the days away
Location: The Middle lands, United Kingd...

Total posts: 7263
Posted:that's right NYC. Like the whole "Virgin" thing. The older scripts and thus dialects had two different words one meant woman who had not given child and the other meant woman who had not had sex but both translate into our word virgin. Mary was not a virgin in the sense we think of it, only in the sense that she had never had a child. So the whole miraculous conception is a pile of gumph.

And before anyone wants more details on the words I have no idea what they were, but this was described very eloquently to me by a devout baptist who was very into his research to do the same thing this thread basically does, to highlight the many many floors in the texts and translations. If I could get him on here he'll be able to reel off a list of things for you but I don't know where he lives anymore....anywho.....


Let's relight this forum ubblove

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Dunc
GOLD Member since Aug 2003

Dunc

playing the days away
Location: The Middle lands, United Kingd...

Total posts: 7263
Posted:oh and another was the orginal text for food ended up being translated into meat. Jesus was also a devout vegitarian and thus the feeding of the five thousand didn't involve any fish, but miss-translation after miss-translation makes this story incorrect, although of course the moral is still the same.

l8rs


Let's relight this forum ubblove

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psycho44
BRONZE Member since Jan 2004

psycho44

member
Location: , USA

Total posts: 56
Posted:i have seen a few different versions of the bible and really the only difference is in the wording but the meaning is still there i mean have you tried to read the king james version it is very hard to understand i mean people just don't talk like that anymore other versions can be used with the king james version and it makes it a whole lot easier to understand ubbangel

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Dentrassi
GOLD Member since Apr 2003

Dentrassi

ZORT!
Location: Brisbane, Australia

Total posts: 3044
Posted:i cant remember for the life of me where i got it from, but i though it was enough note to save this little article.

Quote:
Laura Schlessinger is a US radio personality, and dispenses advice to people who call in to her radio show. On her radio show recently, she said that, as an observant Orthodox Jew, homosexuality is an abomination, according to Leviticus 18:22, and cannot be condoned under any circumstance.

Dear Dr. Laura,
Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from your show, and try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination... End of debate. I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some other elements of God's Laws and how to follow them:

1.Leviticus 25:44 states that I may possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

2. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

3. I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual un-cleanliness - Lev.15: 19-24. The problem is how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offence.

4. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odour for the Lord - Lev.1:9. The problem is: my neighbours. They claim the odour is not pleasing to them. should I smite them?

5. I have a neighbour who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself, or should I ask the police to do it?

6. A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination - Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this? Are there 'degrees' of abomination?

7. Lev.21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle-room here?

8. Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev. 19:27. How should they die?

9. I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

10. My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev.19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? Lev.24:10-16

Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair, like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)

I know you have studied these things extensively and thus enjoy considerable expertise in such matters, so I am confident you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.




have fun Burz! biggrin


"Here kitty kitty...." - Schroedinger.

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Dom
BRONZE Member since Dec 2001

Dom

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Bristol, UK

Total posts: 3009
Posted:I'm with NYC - the fact that there are different versions means that the Bible should never be taken as 'gospel'. Especially as the Bible is an edited version of many texts that are now available out there and tell some wider and very different stories. Even the NIV is a translation of an old text, and it's accepted that many versions of the bible floated around at that time edited to fit individual people's beliefs, just as now.

And to say that a flaw is a contradiction is to dismiss the huge amount of, to me and many people, other flaws in the Bible and people's interpretation of it.

I would get into this more, but I'm worried the chicken pecking around me is going to do some damage and the connection keeps dying.



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NYC


NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA

Total posts: 9232
Posted:?Has Glass gotten drunk and put on his Chicken outfit again?

confused


Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Total posts: 2830
Posted:Burzaruka, do U really expect us to believe that God changed the rules from not killing people as in the ten commandments to making it acceptable to kill homosexuals as in Leviticus 20:13. More like some person shoving their prejudices on the rest of the world. To me this is clearly a case of where Moses predicted the corruption/tampering of the Law (Bible) after his death (Deuteronomy 31:25-29).

Literal interpretation can be dangerous because the Bible is corrupted, unreliable and mostly filled with "man-made" laws. And most Christians, Muslims and Jews would acknowledge this.

So I suggest that people think "would Jesus do that?" before they quote stuff like Leviticus 20:13 to back up their own prejudices, and even fooling themselves into believing that it is the word of God Almighty.


If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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