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Forums > Social Discussion > When does religion/medicine cross into abuse?

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Dunc
GOLD Member since Aug 2003

Dunc

playing the days away
Location: The Middle lands, United Kingd...

Total posts: 7263
Posted:lifted from the homeopathy thread that was leaning off topic, I thought I'd start this.....



It started with this comment



Quote:




....a family was taken to court for neglecting their child because he was dieing of something and they didnt belive in medical treatment in their religion, so they were just letting him die





My response is this........I'm kinda hung jury on this one, yes I don't agree with it by my own principles but I also believe we can't appropriately comment on another cultures befiefs. If they truly had this belief that stopped them administering the required medical attention they must have also believed they were doing the right thing by their religion/god etc. I've seen TV programs about the old Mauri tattoo techniques where they slice and lift off sections of skin before pouring in ink when the boys are 14 and that too could be called abuse, just like enforced circumcision for Jews (sp?) and many others can.



And with the thinking of circumcision, as most American males seem to have this done and at an age where they can't realistically refuse, for reasons of lessening sexual feelings wrapped around a myth of "improved cleanliness" is this abuse??



I can understand how this in itself can be abused and the hard position it makes for law making/enforcement etc.



Does anyone know what the child thought of this? Maybe the childs belief in this culture was also to refuse medical treatment, would it then still count as abuse?







So that it really, when does one cultures beliefs overtake anothers and when does the abuse start?

Does our belief in protecting human life at all costs overwrite anothers when the dieing person/their guardians/their parents believes they will be sent to a better place or re-born etc anyway?

Can religious practices be called abuse when they are practised on children who do not accept the beleif of their parents?



This isn't meant as a law debate or anything like that, I just wondered what folks thoughts on this very grey area were smile


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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:I want to start off by saying that as a pediatrician in training, I have a deep and powerful love of children. To me, anyone who harms a child, or allows a child to come to harm through inaction is an evil monster and should not be allowed to ever lay eyes on a child.

A baby is an innocent being, completely dependent on adults to care for it. To deny an innocent child medical care is to harm that child. I see it as no different than starving a child to death.

If the child is old enough and competent enough to refuse medical treatment, that's a different issue, but for a small child, such a decision is outside the range of his or her comprehension.

Just as my right to swing my fist ends at your nose, the right to freedom of religion stops when it harms another person. There is (and should be) a limit on what you can do to your own children, and denying medical care for an easily treatable and potentially life-threatening illness lies way outside that boundary.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Dunc
GOLD Member since Aug 2003

Dunc

playing the days away
Location: The Middle lands, United Kingd...

Total posts: 7263
Posted:Even if it meant that through the eyes of the ill child or its parent they would then be condemmed to hell (or whatever variant they beleive in) because of the medical process? Such as the blood/bone marrow transfusions which by todays standards are quite a simple process.



How about the circumcision thing if the child it at an age where they are so young they have no comprehention as to what is going on? Especially when the surgery is conducted due to the fallacy of the issue of cleanliness. Isn't that abuse and permenant disfigurement? Especially when it goes (and it does) wrong or where the parents follow the jewish faith and force the 14yo to have the op (I would also say the Seek religion but I can't be 100% sure which of the indian/pakistani faiths practice this) against his will?



"the right to freedom of religion stops when it harms another person" is a very good point (which mostly I agree on) but wouldn't that stop a lot of religious rights to adulthood?


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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:I am actually against routine infant circumcision. This is because the risks of being uncircumcised are approximately equal to the risks of the procedure. I view it as unnecessary and generally not medically indicated.

However, ultimately, circumcision is a safe procedure that has been performed for thousands of years. It does not harm the child or his sexual function (and I know that as a circumcised man). Thus, my feelings on it are not so strong.

However, I will not ever allow a parent to force a child older than a few months of age to circumcise their son against the child's will. Especially if the child is an adolescent. I will do whatever it takes to stop it, including involving CPS.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Dunc
GOLD Member since Aug 2003

Dunc

playing the days away
Location: The Middle lands, United Kingd...

Total posts: 7263
Posted:yes but fear in the adolescent could push him to silence and not air his views against the subject. I think this is abuse and am whole heartedly with you there Lightning. And for this I feel the same with the parents not putting their kids into hospital when they might die, if the children share the same beleifs as the parents (is that unavoidable?!) it's not abuse in my book, although I don't like it.

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Burzaruka


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Total posts: 233
Posted:On the subject of cricumcision, I for one am glad that if it was to be done during my life time that it was done at an age where I don't remember the pain. I am sorry I couldnt imagine being an adult or even teenager and deciding... gee wilikers I think I'll go to the hospital and haver them snip the tip!


So Lightning are you pro-life then?

Lightning I thought you were for the seperation between church and state? If the church shouldnt have any sway over the government then the government shouldnt have any sway of the church, thus government action to force the parents give the child the operation is a violation of their rights. Hence illeagle, unconstitutional etc...


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Stone
GOLD Member since Jun 2001

Stream Entrant
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Total posts: 2830
Posted:Custom Bug, perhaps not mainstream but I've heard it said that some people believe that sickness is caused by the devil, and some holy/devout people believe that it is up to "God's will" whether a person lives or dies. Strong beliefs, great trials of the faith, biblically like Abraham and Isaac.

Personally, I think its abuse to stand by watch a person, with a treatable illness, die due to superstition.




If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:No, Burz. I am not pro-life because I do not like to draw the line of where humanity begins.

And separation of church and state does not negate laws involving child abuse, neglect, and murder. Separation of church and state goes only so far. By your reasoning, separation of church and state would mean that you could get out of a murder charge by crying "religion!"


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Burzaruka


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Total posts: 233
Posted:Isnt not being pro-life drawing the line where life begins?

Why shouldn't you get out of murder for crying religion, its been done for centuries by various religions, Jews, Christians, Muslims... etc.


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MiG
GOLD Member since Apr 2004

MiG

Self-Flagellation Expert
Location: Bogged at CG, Australia

Total posts: 3415
Posted:And, religion has caused a lot of wars, and deaths, and loss of scientific knowledge.

Which is pretty strange, really, considering nearly all religions say, at least once 'be nice to people'


"beg beg grovel beg grovel"
"master"
--FSA

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--Rougie

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mrFlibble
SILVER Member since Mar 2003

Ghostbuster
Location: York, UK

Total posts: 455
Posted:the idea that being circumcised is more cleanly is ludicrous. if you shower regularly then you'll be as clean as anyone else, circumcised or uncircumcised.

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:Quote:

Why shouldn't you get out of murder for crying religion, its been done for centuries by various religions, Jews, Christians, Muslims... etc.



Which is why I eschew organized religion. I think that once religions started running into each-other, they started causing more trouble than they were worth.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Dunc
GOLD Member since Aug 2003

Dunc

playing the days away
Location: The Middle lands, United Kingd...

Total posts: 7263
Posted:Damn good point mike, IMO I think if organised religion just didn't exist we would have had a far superior development as a race

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:Without religion, there would have been no Dark Ages. We would have advanced our technology 500 years ahead of where we are now by this time.

-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Burzaruka


enthusiast


Total posts: 233
Posted:If you read what I posted before, please ignore it, it was really not said right and frankly came off wrong. So I am changing it, if you posted in reply before I post this, I am sorry for the inconvience of saying something then chainging it.





Lighting, without religion the pyramids of egypt would not exist, without religion the wonderful buildings in rome and greece would not exist, without religion the temple of david would not exist.



This is all part of technology.



These buildings paved the way for our sky scrapers. The math used to create such wonders would probably never have existed or if it existed have been far behind your "500 year" jump.



Without the dark ages the renaissance never would have happend, human flight would not have happend. The medical tools you use wouldnt exist. Religion is the cornerstone of human evoloution, be it Christianity, Buddisim, Taoisim, Muslim, man take your pick each religion has contributed more than just violence to the world, it has given hope to those who had none.



Correct me if I am wrong but you seem like a man who has lost his faith in everything. I feel a lot of pitty for you.

EDITED_BY: Burzaruka (1085028655)


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Dunc
GOLD Member since Aug 2003

Dunc

playing the days away
Location: The Middle lands, United Kingd...

Total posts: 7263
Posted:eh? confused I may be wrong as I'm no historian but weren't the pyramids built for the Egyption kings not their gods??

And how did all this stuff come out of the Dark Ages?? I thought the whole point of it being called the Dark Ages was that we have such little information about what happenned due to the barbarianism that Europe succumed after the fall of the Roman Empire....how did you have all that info yet the historians don't??

As for flight.....Leonardo DaVinci (16th Century) Montgolfier Brothers (18th Century) and The Wright Brothers (20th Century) hardly count as the dark ages. And the Renaissaince came from the Dark ages too??? confused

And you may like to know that the techiniques used for the construction of sky scrapers is actually comletely different to the old buildings you mention. The only way they contributed was that the Egyptians invented Pythagoras theory two thousand years before Pythagoras (who himself was around 2000 years ahead of an african tribesman who also discovered it without the help of religion) and the buildings taught us you can't build sky scrapers with the construction techniques employed in building like St Davids and other massive building because they fall over! And the buildings we have in rome etc, yes we wouldn't have had prayer temples and churches etc without religion but I'm sure we'd have lots of other ones. Man can evolve and build without religion as the guide and inspiration you know....Just like we do today.

I think you might need to take your books back to the library and get some that are a little closer to the truth.

As for your comment on Lighnings faith, that's a very personal and negative comment, although I'm sure it will wash off like water off a ducks back but you shuldn't make such negative comments. You seem to have brought a lot of negative comments to these boards, perhaps you should think a little more positively before posting your views


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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom

Total posts: 3252
Posted:Burzaruka's got a good point about the buildings, from stonehenge onwards many of humanities most impressive structures have been religion/spirituality inspired.

However, I think Custom Bugs right to point out that negativity is not a good thing, Lightning certainly doesn't seem like a person who has lost faith in everything to me.

The question of whether the world is a better or worse place because of religion is an interesting one, religion has been behind great evil as well as great comfort.

Ultimately it's not a question I really dwell on any longer as I think the only way to know is to somehow rerun all history, without religion.

Not only is that impossible, but, if I try to imagine how the world would turn out, I can see it going either way.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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Moohaahaa
BRONZE Member since Mar 2002

Moohaahaa

enthusiast
Location: In Ger Land, India

Total posts: 382
Posted:Religion did, however, bring us war.

Many many wars.

And pro-lifers, which, in regards to the title of the thread, is way past the abuse line.

Rites of passage, such as the Maori tattoo's or circumcision, will most-likely not have an ongoing effect on the person's life. If the child is at an age where they are strongly against it, then, like Mike said, everything should be done to help them.

Pro-life is saying, "O.K, because of one mistake, which probabaly 99% of people will make at some point in their life, you have to bring up this child." It takes nothing like the mental, economic, or health issues of the mother-to-be into account. It is completely blinkered in it's views. It is definately abuse.

Religions often start of with good intentions, but often just get silly.

When talking to my (fairly) devout Roman-Catholic friend she explained
"Believing in God helps me be a better person"
I said something like "Would you not feel better if you believed it was yourself that makes you a better person?"

This is my view on it. It seems to me that it is devoutly religious people who have lost faith.


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Some things you have to believe in to see.

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Burzaruka


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Total posts: 233
Posted:Forgive me if I jumped around too much to follow.

The Pharos were both King and God. Thus pyramids built for the Egyption religion.

Through the Renaissaince, the theory of human flight first took a practical shape and evolved throuh the centuries. Now we have space travel.

The Dark Ages were a time where the only technology that advanced was that of torture and death. So when th e Dark Ages ended and the time of the Renaissaince began technology and practical thought took form. What does this have to do with religion? Religion helped fuel the Dark Ages, with out this period of little thought, it is quite possible that the Rennisaunce would not have happend and thus no jump in thought. Most of Lightning's medical practices find their roots in the Renaissaince.


The technique may be differnt for building skyscrapers, but the foundation of the idea happend especially with the building of Roman buildings such as the Collisium, inspired by Aries god of war, if I am not mistaken.


Moohahaha, I dont think that circumcision in the majority of todays cultures has anything to do with a right of passage.

I think that you are looking at the word religion and thinking Christianity, when you talk about Quote:
"Believing in God helps me be a better person"
I said something like "Would you not feel better if you believed it was yourself that makes you a better person?"




There are religions out there such as Taoisim, Confoushisim that really has nothing to do with God. Yet they seem to help people. Is this wrong? No. If you believe that a certain way will help you out, all the power to them. Also not all relgions have caused war. Take the Omish for instance, what war or even a fight, have you seen the Omish start, finish or even take much of a part in?


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Moohaahaa
BRONZE Member since Mar 2002

Moohaahaa

enthusiast
Location: In Ger Land, India

Total posts: 382
Posted:When I said Quote:
"Believing in God helps me be a better person"
I said something like "Would you not feel better if you believed it was yourself that makes you a better person?"

I was thinking of Christianity,as I was talking to my Roman Catholic friend, as I mentioned in the post.

When I said right of passage, I possibly used the wrong words. I was trying to use it as an example of something that is done for purely religous purposes.

You have taken a much smaller religion (Omish) and used it to defend religion as a whole. If I take a much larger one (Christianity) and use it as as an example of religions causing problems, then you tell me Quote:
you are looking at the word religion and thinking Christianity


Which I was. When Christianity is the dominant religion in the world, it is hard not to.

If we are talking about problems/benifits caused by religion, then we are genereally talking of the 4 major faiths. Christianity, Hinduism, Muslims, Buddhists. Of corse there are thousands of varients and different faiths, but these are the main 4.

For individuals, I am sure these faiths have brung a lot of benefit. For civilisation as a whole, I am not so sure. I don't know if space travel and churches out weigh the amount of pain and death they have brung.

As one wheel said, the only way to find out would be to re-run history without religion. Which we can't.


But, if all major religions where somehow stopped tomorrow using some sort of magic brain erasing technology, I think a lot of fighting would cease. Mike would continue to practice though. smile

Tis just a thought.


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Some things you have to believe in to see.

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Burzaruka


enthusiast


Total posts: 233
Posted:There is enough racial bigotry and a desire for ethnic cleansing to keep war going even if their wasnt religions.

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Dunc
GOLD Member since Aug 2003

Dunc

playing the days away
Location: The Middle lands, United Kingd...

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Posted:so what you're saying Baz is that everything we have now (flight, tools etc) comes from HISTORY. Not specific to the dark ages. But everything comes from history.

Quote:
The technique may be differnt for building skyscrapers, but the foundation of the idea happend especially with the building of Roman buildings such as the Collisium, inspired by Aries god of war, if I am not mistaken

God of War, good example for the Abuse theme.

So nobody wanted big buidings until the Romans and/or religion....hmmm...I think folk have always wanted (and built) big buildings, occupied the biggest cave etc pre-Egyptian included. "How" they built them was nothing to do with religion, that was only "why" they wanted "some" of them. "How" they built them was mans own brain power, brain power that would have existed without religion. Desires that would ahve existed without religion. Ego has been around much longer than our beleif in God(s)

Anyway, we're taking this well off topic, please bump an old one to continue this debate if you fancy.


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Burzaruka


enthusiast


Total posts: 233
Posted:Wow, you are really hell bent on telling the world that religion has done nothing but cause war. You are also really hell bent at trying to put words in my mouth and taking things I have said way out of context. Why?

No people wanted big buildings long before the Romans, but an example of a big building built for religion are a lot of the great Roman buildings! Is that so hard to understand?

Religion, depending on what you believe, existed before mans ego. Biblically God was around before man's sin. So when Adam and Eve were created, their religion was already in place. Now if you dont believe this then I can understand your claim that man created religion and god, but I believe it is very much the other way around.


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Dunc
GOLD Member since Aug 2003

Dunc

playing the days away
Location: The Middle lands, United Kingd...

Total posts: 7263
Posted:Quote:
Wow, you are really hell bent on telling the world that religion has done nothing but cause war. You are also really hell bent at trying to put words in my mouth and taking things I have said way out of context. Why?



Sorry dude, just reading it the way you write it.


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Burzaruka


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Total posts: 233
Posted:No you're not, not even close. Religion has had a huge impact on technological advancment, I have given several examples of said impact. You have tried to twist every last word into something it isnt and then claim that your just "reading the way I write it". What you said wasnt even a logical thought process for a continuation of what I said.

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onewheeldave
GOLD Member since Aug 2002

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom

Total posts: 3252
Posted:I think everyone should calm down a bit.

Maybe all the wars that are said to come from religion actually came from disagreements and arguments about religion?

This thread is a good illustration of how people seem to have real difficulty discussiong religion without getting hostile (that goes for both the religious and the non religious).



"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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Moohaahaa
BRONZE Member since Mar 2002

Moohaahaa

enthusiast
Location: In Ger Land, India

Total posts: 382
Posted:Are disagreements and arguments about religions not based in religion?

Quote:
Religion, depending on what you believe, existed before mans ego. Biblically God was around before man's sin. So when Adam and Eve were created, their religion was already in place. Now if you dont believe this then I can understand your claim that man created religion and god, but I believe it is very much the other way around



Surely you are now mistaking Christianity with religion Burz?


Some things you have to see to believe, but
Some things you have to believe in to see.

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Burzaruka


enthusiast


Total posts: 233
Posted:Gee, I thought Christianity was a religion and in the specific case of that religion (being the one I believe in) then my statment is true.

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robotface


member


Total posts: 190
Posted:It's more then a little ridicilous to assume religion is to blame for so many wars. Most religious wars I am aware of had underlying issues that had nothing to do with religion, it was just done in the name of religion, and it could have been done in the name of anything else.

Look at the age of communism from the russian revolution to now and see how many wars it's responsible for. I would say, Perhaps ideaological and fundamental dedication on the part of society is responsible being the banner for many wars. Would you like a world without idealogical and fundamental dedication? I ask you this.


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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:Quote:
Correct me if I am wrong but you seem like a man who has lost his faith in everything. I feel a lot of pitty for you.



Oh, I have plenty of faith. In my meditations, I have traveled to places that the authors of the Bible never even dreamed. I have seen and felt things that I cannot even describe.

But confusing faith and religion is like confusing love and sex. They are not one and the same. I have no use for reading some old book that has been transcribed for thousands of years, errors, editings, and blatant re-writings all included and deciding that this is the infallable blueprint for how the world works. THAT is what causes problems.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:Quote:

The Pharos were both King and God. Thus pyramids built for the Egyption religion.



They were, as were temples, cathedrals, and many other wonders of the world.

They're very pretty and impressive, but, tell me, what good are the pyramids? They were an impressive waste of resources and money that could have been used for the betterment of Egyptian society.

Pretty buildings are hardly a reason to have religion around. I mean, have you seen the Vatican? It's the most colossal waste of money the world has ever seen. With the riches found there, we could do...amazing things.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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