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_VT_
Your Face!
Location: el paso, tx
Member Since: 15th Jul 2003
Total posts: 1173
Posted:WTF! Sorry, I saw this and i'm so censored pissed off right now i can't even think strait. I under stand why it was done, but since when do two wrongs make a right?

Heroism on command, senseless violence, and all the loathsome nonsense that goes by the name of patriotism - how passionately I hate them!
-Albert Einstein-

Peanut butter... It fills the cracks of the soul! -Paul Blart-

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SpitFire
Mand's Girl....and The Not So Shy One
Location: Calgary, Alberta Canada
Member Since: 2nd Dec 2002
Total posts: 2723
Posted:Yeah...I saw that too, and two wrongs don't make a right, ever.

*sigh*





Solitude sometimes speaks to you, and you should listen.

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mrFlibble
Ghostbuster
Location: York, UK
Member Since: 1st Mar 2003
Total posts: 455
Posted:yeah it is really sick.
but its not the first time someone has been beheaded and then had the video of it get spread all over the internet. it happened to some russian soldier in chechnya too.


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mrFlibble
Ghostbuster
Location: York, UK
Member Since: 1st Mar 2003
Total posts: 455
Posted:also a video was shown on national tv in the phillipines of a phillipino government soldier getting beheaded by rebels. (this was a while ago now)

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robotface
member

Member Since: 2nd Apr 2004
Total posts: 190
Posted:Also a captured american reported.



Im not justifying this, but I really think the soldiers who tortured the iraqi's should feel the worst about this,. It's on their shoulders.


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mrFlibble
Ghostbuster
Location: York, UK
Member Since: 1st Mar 2003
Total posts: 455
Posted:its why things like the troubles in northern ireland and the israeli-palestinian conflict keep going for so long - because it becomes about revenge for the most recent killing, and it keeps going round and round with revenge after revenge and it never ends.


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_VT_
Your Face!
Location: el paso, tx
Member Since: 15th Jul 2003
Total posts: 1173
Posted:My younger brother is a medic in the U.S. army. He is in iraq right now and has been for the past 90 days. My brother put's it like this. "Every soldier that is there is family". They refer to each other as there brother and sister. Because everyone watches out for every one. so to put it mildly, It's like someone shooting or blowing up a member of your family. When someone gets shot or blown to pieces. everyone get's extremely pissed off because you just pretty much blew up or picked off a member of their family. It's like you and a member of your family(mother, brother,sister,aunt) are standing on the street and someone walk's up and shoot's them.

I can't say alot of the things they do are right,but it's totaly different when your in that situation. Most people don't see that mentality and then when the press see's that mentality, they have a field day with it, twist it around,blow it out of proportion, and then spit it out to the public.

yes the the tortured prisoners where a bit over board from our point of view,but to the soldiers,they think they doing right.

EDITED_BY: Pvt.VT (1084312555)


Heroism on command, senseless violence, and all the loathsome nonsense that goes by the name of patriotism - how passionately I hate them!
-Albert Einstein-

Peanut butter... It fills the cracks of the soul! -Paul Blart-

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robotface
member

Member Since: 2nd Apr 2004
Total posts: 190
Posted:my point is, the soldiers brought this about by torturing the prisoners. So now, a member of their family has had their head cut off. They should feel pretty [censored] bad for what they have done.

Shouldn't they?

If I got in trouble with the mafia because I ripped them off a pound of cocaine, and they killed my brother. I would feel pretty god damn awful about myself.


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mrFlibble
Ghostbuster
Location: York, UK
Member Since: 1st Mar 2003
Total posts: 455
Posted:i'd imagine that the soldiers guarding the iraqi prisoners will now think twice about getting their photo taken whilst doing anything that could be considered remotely bad, knowing that it could end up over every news channel in the world.

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_VT_
Your Face!
Location: el paso, tx
Member Since: 15th Jul 2003
Total posts: 1173
Posted:That's just it, they don't feel bad. They feel the iraqi's got what they had comeing to them.

Heroism on command, senseless violence, and all the loathsome nonsense that goes by the name of patriotism - how passionately I hate them!
-Albert Einstein-

Peanut butter... It fills the cracks of the soul! -Paul Blart-

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robotface
member

Member Since: 2nd Apr 2004
Total posts: 190
Posted:Im not saying they should feel bad about what they did. They should feel bad because what they did killed their comrade, and will kill more of their comrades in the near future.

If they can't comprehend action and consequence, then they are plain stupid.


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_VT_
Your Face!
Location: el paso, tx
Member Since: 15th Jul 2003
Total posts: 1173
Posted:Actualy this is going to,if not already piss them off even more because it was a civilian they beheaded and not another soldier.

Heroism on command, senseless violence, and all the loathsome nonsense that goes by the name of patriotism - how passionately I hate them!
-Albert Einstein-

Peanut butter... It fills the cracks of the soul! -Paul Blart-

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robotface
member

Member Since: 2nd Apr 2004
Total posts: 190
Posted:Well, it's going to be soldiers in the future.



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_VT_
Your Face!
Location: el paso, tx
Member Since: 15th Jul 2003
Total posts: 1173
Posted:I'm sure they are going to feel like ass for bringing this on themselves, but to drag a civilian who is there to help rebuild iraq is gonna stir some feces.
EDITED_BY: Pvt.VT (1084315413)


Heroism on command, senseless violence, and all the loathsome nonsense that goes by the name of patriotism - how passionately I hate them!
-Albert Einstein-

Peanut butter... It fills the cracks of the soul! -Paul Blart-

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Dunc
Dunc

playing the days away
Location: The Middle lands
Member Since: 19th Aug 2003
Total posts: 7263
Posted:my heart goes out to his poor family :cry: I hope he rests in peace and this makes at least one more person think that all war is pointless

Let's relight this forum ubblove

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robotface
member

Member Since: 2nd Apr 2004
Total posts: 190
Posted:like I said, im not justifying what they did, and it is a tragedy.

But I think this is the beginning of a disastour in iraq, if people thought things were bad before, it's going to start looking like vietnam now.


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Medusa
Medusa

veteran
Location: 8 days at Cloudbreak, 6 in Per...
Member Since: 25th Nov 2003
Total posts: 1433
Posted:Sick sick sick!

I feel for his family and hope that the a**holes that did this to him get their just desserts.

That poor poor man must have been absolutely terrified.

Rest In Peace!


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Burzaruka
enthusiast

Member Since: 13th Apr 2004
Total posts: 233
Posted:Now we will see th e true character or America, it's soldiers and it's leaders.

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Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13920
Posted:It's just going to be another downward spiral of attack and counter-attack and counter-counter-attack and counter-counter-counter-counter-counter-attack until nobody's even sure what started it all anymore.

Hatfields, meet the McCoys. McCoys, Hatfields.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13920
Posted:Quote:
That's just it, they don't feel bad. They feel the iraqi's got what they had comeing to them.



That's so awful. It explains why this campaign is going horrible. No respect for the country we're supposed to be liberating.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Burzaruka
enthusiast

Member Since: 13th Apr 2004
Total posts: 233
Posted:Quote:
That's just it, they don't feel bad. They feel the iraqi's got what they had comeing to them.



I don't know how you can say this. Are you in personal contact with all the troops charged with the torture of the prisoners? Perhaps you are right, but perhaps you are wrong.


Lightning, you are takeing a handful of individuals and assuming that they represent the entire US. On a global scale the are representing the US, but doing a rather shotty job at it since not all Americans feel the same way. It is foolish to think that the US military has no respect for the people of Iraq.

I believe that this happend not because of lack of respect for Iraq, but lack of self respect. The people who did this were definatly not in their right minds, no sane person does that to another human. They should be pulled out and sent to shrink to see if they are even fit to stand trial, then they should be tried in a military court where after completion of thier sentance, should be handed over to an Iraqi court to see justice be done and to prove that the US is not in Iraq just for its own well being.

The commanders should be forced to step down and at worst be charged with deraliction of duty for not maintaining propper order a discipline within the troops under their command.


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robotface
member

Member Since: 2nd Apr 2004
Total posts: 190
Posted:I would say your nation's response to the torture represents it's self.

Sennators applauding and endorsing it, the president ignoreing it.

You don't need a handfull of soldiers to represent your nation, your nation does a nice job on it's own.


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_VT_
Your Face!
Location: el paso, tx
Member Since: 15th Jul 2003
Total posts: 1173
Posted:the people who totured the prisoners where marines. my brother is in the army. most of the guys in the army feel that they had it comeing.
EDITED_BY: Pvt.VT (1084336138)


Heroism on command, senseless violence, and all the loathsome nonsense that goes by the name of patriotism - how passionately I hate them!
-Albert Einstein-

Peanut butter... It fills the cracks of the soul! -Paul Blart-

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coleman
coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay
Member Since: 29th Aug 2002
Total posts: 7330
Posted:Quote:
the people who totured the prisoners where marines. my brother is in the army. most of the guys in the army feel that they had it comeing.





but isn't that the same mentality as people responsible for terrorist activities?



"we know what's best - we'll punish untried people for the perceived crimes of others."



no-one 'has it coming' to them like that - that's just the opinion of someone with an overinflated ego and possibly too much power for their own good.



if the 'guys in the army' truly believed the iraqi's 'had it coming to them' (whatever 'it' may be), they wouldn't have needed to do anything but wait.



it all sickens me.

i'll be avoiding the papers again for a couple of days i think...



frown


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13920
Posted:So what will the U.S. Government's response to this be?

Will they call it "cowardly" and "inhumane?" Will they condemn it?

Gosh, those censoreders who killed that poor man sure must be grinning like idiots right now. Not only has the Geneva Convention been completely subverted (hopefully not permanently) by U.S. actions, but we can't even complain about the fact that they did this.

Now what's Bush going to say? frown


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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vanize
vanize

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Austin, Texas
Member Since: 21st Aug 2001
Total posts: 3899
Posted:I suspect they would have cut the guy's head off and video taped it regardless of whether the whole Iraqi prisoner abuse scandal had existed or not. If it hadn't happened, they would have just said something else to justify it.

-v-

Wiederstand ist Zwecklos!

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Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13920
Posted:Oh, wait. It's already started. Per CNN.com,

"[White House Spokesman] McClellan said the videotape "shows the true nature of the enemies of freedom. They have no regard for the lives of innocent men, women and children."

Sounds awfully hypocritical, now doesn't it? Even if we are making rapid changes to stop the abuse on our end, the damage is done.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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SpitFire
Mand's Girl....and The Not So Shy One
Location: Calgary, Alberta Canada
Member Since: 2nd Dec 2002
Total posts: 2723
Posted:vanize is right, they would have beheaded the guy anyway.

soapbox What's below are my opinions and my opinions only. soapbox

As for the abuse by US Soldiers? There was a breakdown in command, and it started the moment someone thought that MP's working with military intelligence to interrogate prisoners would be a good thing....that is NOT standard operating procedure (I've talked to my friend, Donna, who was an MP officer).

ndersecretary of Defense for Intelligence, Stephen A. Cambone made the decision the two should work together, but I bet you he didn't listen to advice from the Army Chief of Staff.

MP's are not trained to interrogate prisoners. They are trained to guard them. If those MP's didn't read the Geneva conventions, then the people who trained them should be reprimanded. The MP unit I trained with had drill weekends devoted to such training. Donna, my friend, said as an officer in charge of MP's she made it her business to be well versed in such things.

What happened in the prison is a disgrace, and the soldiers should have known better. The breakdown, though, was much higher in the chain of command. Cambone should be forced out of his position. He has no military qualifications, and really isn't qualified for his job.

Rumsfeld is another who is not qualified, and he should be forced to resign as well. He ignored the report initially filed at the beginning of the year. By ignoring it, he gave some form of approval, no matter how weak or indirect.

As an American, I'm ashamed of what those MP's did. We've got to be better , morally, than the folks we're fighting. Unfortunately, those MP's are human, and make mistakes. They, though, should and must be held accountable. The supervising officers should be held accountable. The Brigadier General who's been reassigned definitely needs to be held accountable, but so should Cambone and Rumsfeld.

In the military, when things like this happen, the ultimate responsibility lies with the Commanding officer. Unfortunately, too often some try to pass the buck to the next guy on the totem pole. Rumsfeld and Cambone are covering their butts, but they are just as responsible as those that knew about the problem and ignored it.

I do not, though want to give the impression the soldiers responsible for the abuse should get off...they must be held accountable for their actions. They used poor judgement, but they are not the only ones at fault. That's my point. In the military, chain of command is everything. When discipline breaks down, look to the leadership. Somewhere in the chain of command, you'll find the weak link. In this case, it's Rumsfeld and Cambone.

The soldier that reported the abuse, and those who investigated, and reported it to Rumsfeld did the right thing.

Not all American soldiers are like this. Unfortunately, I think we'll hear of more incidents. Again, I point the finger to those who are in charge. They let discipline lapse in cases like this. Republican senators who don't understand the brew-ha-ha should be slapped.

WE'VE GOT TO BE BETTER than those we fight, plane and simple. Our soldiers have to take the moral High Road, no matter how much it sucks at the time.

*ahems* End Rant.


Solitude sometimes speaks to you, and you should listen.

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Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13920
Posted:Quote:
WE'VE GOT TO BE BETTER than those we fight, plane and simple. Our soldiers have to take the moral High Road, no matter how much it sucks at the time.



clap

It's so sad to hear people going "Well, at least we're not as bad as Saddam!" or "I didn't hear them apologizing for mutilating corpses and dragging through the streets!"

It is, indeed, a dark day when Americans begin to compare themselves to the thugs, terrorists, and warlords that we are supposed to be fighting. And it is even darker when we congratulate ourselves on "not being as bad" as they.

frown


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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_VT_
Your Face!
Location: el paso, tx
Member Since: 15th Jul 2003
Total posts: 1173
Posted:Lightning, I don't even know why they took that extreme in the first place since the marines that tortured those people are most likely going to be exicuted.

Heroism on command, senseless violence, and all the loathsome nonsense that goes by the name of patriotism - how passionately I hate them!
-Albert Einstein-

Peanut butter... It fills the cracks of the soul! -Paul Blart-

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Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13920
Posted:Quote:
Lightning, I don't even know why they took that extreme in the first place since the marines that tortured those people are most likely going to be exicuted.



Can you execute someone for that? I thought treason, cowardice, and desertion were the only capital offenses in the military.

I will be VERY upset if they execute the non-coms and let the higher-ups off with a slap on the wrist.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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