Forums > Social Discussion > Hate crime legislation. Right or wrong?

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robotfacemember
190 posts

Posted:
What are your opinions on hate crime legislation? It was put on paper to discourage hate crimes, but personally I think it's a shotty piece of legislation, and I don't see how it is justified to give greater penalty for a hate crime then any other crime.

If I beat up a man out of hate because he's black, or gay or jewish etc... why is that any diffrent then beating up a man because I hate him because he's a republican, or likes a sports team I don't like etc etc...

To me, assault is assault. The penalty should depend on the severity of the assault, the degree of pre-meditation etc...

I do agree the hate crime legislation is good when it comes to areas of discrimination, such as work place discrimination.

Another thing that bothers me is the fact that it's a hate crime to write hateful literature about people covered by the hate crime legislation. To me it's outright censorship. Canada recently broadend it's hate crime definition to envelope homosexuals (before it was very vague about how the legislation applied to hate crimes agaisnt homosexuals) and I expect various right wing religious publications to end up in court for writeing about how homosexuality is wrong. Something is wrong when the government can step in and censor religious publications.

Personally I think homosexuals should have inclusion in the legislation just because everyone else does, but it kind of bothers me to see the legislation becomeing larger.

Another issue is hate crimes agaisnt majoritys are rarely charged. For example if I am beaten up by a black man because he hates white men, he will simply be charged with assault most likely (although people have been charged with hate crimes in these instances). Furthermore if I beat up a black man because he beat up my brother for example. Even though my motivation isn't hatred towards black men, there is a very good chance I could be charged with a hate crime and receive more jail time.


DurbsBRONZE Member
Classically British
5,689 posts
Location: Epsom, Surrey, England


Posted:
Errrrm - because you're not gay? confused

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MikeGinnyGOLD Member
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA


Posted:
Quote:

I don't see how you can not choose to like the member of the opposite sex.




Great, Now you're telling me I'm lying.

I'm an Eagle Scout. I hate being called a liar.

-Mike

Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella



A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura


Burzarukaenthusiast
233 posts

Posted:
Nope, not calling the great scout master a liar, just cant comprehend your choices.

Durbs is right, I'm not gay, how can I understand without asking questions? I am not trying to be rude, just trying to understand. Maybe a conversation like this shouldnt be in the open. I can sence tought tempers, ready to snap and nobody wants to see that from anyone. peace

MikeGinnyGOLD Member
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA


Posted:
I told you I never made a choice (other than the futile choice I made to be straight, which led me to live in misery until I came out at age 25). You insist I am.

The only interpretation is that you are accusing me of not telling the truth.

-Mike

Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella



A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura


Burzarukaenthusiast
233 posts

Posted:
Please allow me to adjust what I said so that it might make more sence...

I feel, that homosexuality is a choice, I view it as a choice, I am by no means calling anyone a liar if they feel or view it as other. I am saying that a single viewpoint that is contrary to my own is not enough for me to change my mind. I do not know what it would take to change my mind.

What I understand and what I dont understand are two very differnt looking piles. I will admit that. I will also admit that I do not have a clue about the choice or lack of choice for homosexuality. I do know what my gut and my own personal beliefs tell me and untill they are both proven wrong without a shadow of a doubt I will hold them as 100% truth to me.

Quote:

That's assuming we're able to discover anything after we die.




I also believe that after we die, all the truths of this world will be revealed, I am not assuming anything. To me that is also fact.

StoneGOLD Member
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia


Posted:
Burzaruka, I strongly disagree with:
Quote:

My own personal view on homosexuality come from a natural stand point as much as a religious one. Two homosexual mamals, insects, fish and birds can not breed. They are violating the laws of nature.

If you can have faith in nothing else, have faith in that. I honestly dont think there are any homosexuals outside the human species, though it would be interesting to be proven wrong, so this leaves us with one logical conclusion. Since nature has not made any other homsexual creatures, why would humans be differnt?

Homosexuality is a desire. A mental choice.




Because that is so much crap. Your view is a religious one and is not one based on nature or science or anything except prejudice. From a natural stand point (and in this case we'll stick to mammals) a small percentage of the natural population is born homosexual; its all in the normal distribution of the population, and homosexuality certainly occurs in other mammals besides humans.

If we look at insects, we c that when populations build up to high levels we get a lot of cannibalism and homosexuality which acts to bring the population below the threshold to avoid extinction.

Homosexuality is a part of the natural order.

If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh


MikeGinnyGOLD Member
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA


Posted:
Quote:

I feel, that homosexuality is a choice, I view it as a choice, I am by no means calling anyone a liar if they feel or view it as other. I am saying that a single viewpoint that is contrary to my own is not enough for me to change my mind. I do not know what it would take to change my mind.





Well that's just too damned bad. Because you're quite wrong.

This isn't an issue for discussion or disagreement. This isn't up for debate. It isn't a choice and I know it from first-hand experience.

You can believe the sky is green for all I care, but it doesn't make it right, so if you want to believe that homosexuality is a choice, go right ahead, but you're plain wrong.

If you can't say what it would take to convince you, that should be the first sign that what you have is not an interest or a belief, but mindless, brainwashed dogma.

And that is so sad.

-Mike

Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella



A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura


Burzarukaenthusiast
233 posts

Posted:
Religion or not I still don't understand why one believes that they are physically limited to liking only one sex.

Why can't anyone give a definate answer to my questions? Are there no definate answers?

To recap my questions... Why is it that people feel that nature has selected them to like only one sex and that no matter what they do or wish they can't change it?

All religoin aside, I don't understand this, can someone please explane this to me?

robotfacemember
190 posts

Posted:
Because people grow up in a hostile society and wish more then anything they could be straight? They fake it for several years sacrificing their soul so they can go with the flow, and often end up killing themselves because they have no control over their sexuality?


MikeGinnyGOLD Member
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA


Posted:
Quote:

Why can't anyone give a definate answer to my questions? Are there no definate answers?





No, you answer mine. Why would I choose to be gay?

Go on. What could have been my motive? What makes a nice Midwestern boy, born into a good family, who wants nothing more in his life than to have a wife and kids (I love children in a way I can't even describe), "choose" to be gay?

-Mike

Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella



A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura


MiGGOLD Member
Self-Flagellation Expert
3,414 posts
Location: Bogged at CG, Australia


Posted:
offtopic
Right, one thing to get out in the open straight away:
I'm a straight male. Personally, i dont care one way or another if a person is gay, as long as they dont hit on me. Oh, and i dont really like people that flaunt their sexuality (things like the gay and lesbian mardi gras). I definitely wouldn't class myself as homophobic, nor bisexual. Oh, and im agnostic, or atheist, or whatever it is that thinks there might be a god, but dont care much one way or the other. I really dont care about much, to be honest.

Now, with that out of the way, I'll make a reference to the second to last post, that is grounded pretty much in common sense/ basic scientific knowledge:
Quote:

Why can't anyone give a definate answer to my questions? Are there no definate answers?

To recap my questions... Why is it that people feel that nature has selected them to like only one sex and that no matter what they do or wish they can't change it?

All religoin aside, I don't understand this, can someone please explane this to me?




Well, there are hardly any definite answers when it comes to people, especially the mental side of things. Ok, we know that what you eat and drink definitely come out at some point, and we definitely have lots of bones, but i dont think there are that many, if any at all, definite answers when it comes to how we think. I know that i'm attracted to certain things on ladies, and there's nothing i can do to change that. In much the same way, (taking a bit of liberty here, lightning. I will change/delete stuff if you want me to), i bet lightning is simply attracted to males more than females, in the same way that i prefer a short-medium height (~5' - 5'10"ish) female to a 7 foot behemoth. Its not my fault i like shorter females, and its not lightning's fault he likes guys. Its the way the dice fall. Whether it was nature or nurture that caused the dice to fall that way, i dont know, and probably never will.

At the end of the day, I dont think that there is anyone that knows a defite reason as to why people are born gay, turn gay, or stay straight. its another one of those mysteries. Perhaps its better that way, perhaps not.

I apologise to anyone that i may have offended in the above post, and if there is anything that you would like changed, let me know.

Oh, and i think some people should read the terms and conditions page, about not saying nasty stuff.

"beg beg grovel beg grovel"
"master"
--FSA

"There was an arse there, i couldn't help myself"
--Rougie


Burzarukaenthusiast
233 posts

Posted:
In all truth I can't answer your question, all I can do is come up with conjectors and BS as to why you chose to turn gay.

Your turn to try to answer mine.

onewheeldaveGOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom


Posted:
The whole point of what Mikes saying, it seems to me, is that he didn't choose to be gay.

Have you tried asking yourself why it's so important to you to believe that gays choose their sexual preference, rather than it being imposed upon them by nature?

"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!


StoneGOLD Member
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia


Posted:
Quote:

Why is it that people feel that nature has selected them to like only one sex and that no matter what they do or wish they can't change it?




Well Burzaruka, to answer your question u have to understand how the human body replicates itself. I suggest u watch an excellent video called The Human Body with Robert Winston . That way u will appreciate how complex things are when it comes to human reproduction and sexuality. Like did u know that males start as women in the womb or that Olympic officials cannot determine the sex of some athletics ????

If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh


Burzarukaenthusiast
233 posts

Posted:
Actually I did know about babies and though I really didnt know about the olympic offical thing, I can understand the problem. Then again wernt the olympics done nude at one time to prevent women from competeing?

robotfacemember
190 posts

Posted:
I would like to see you answer onewheeldave's question.

Burzarukaenthusiast
233 posts

Posted:
Ahh but my question was asked first. So at the risk of sounding the same age as my shoe size I am going to take the oprotunity to wait out an answer.

Either that or perhaps I just don't have an answer for him yet. It is most definatly a duzy of a question. wink

MikeGinnyGOLD Member
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA


Posted:
Quote:

In all truth I can't answer your question, all I can do is come up with conjectors and BS as to why you chose to turn gay.








How about thinking about it and realizing that it would make no sense for me to choose to "turn gay"?



How about showing some 1) brains and 2) maturity and admitting that you're wrong?



As for your question, I'll answer it with another question: why are some children born sick? Why are some women infertile? Why are some men infertile? Why would nature select for an organism that doesn't reproduce?



Answer: it doesn't. That doesn't mean that we don't pop up anyways. Even if we are "accidents" of nature, it doesn't mean that it's a choice. And discriminating against us is no more morally correct than discriminating against someone with cystic fibrosis (they can't reproduce, either).



As it happens, there may be a selective advantage to having certain genes that predispose to homosexuality that outweigh the cost of having gay individuals. Do you know about sickle-cell anemia and why that disease is maintained in the population?

-Mike

Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella



A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura


Burzarukaenthusiast
233 posts

Posted:
If I believed that people were born gay, then I would have no other choice than to admit I was wrong. Brains have nothing to do with it, it is a matter of preception. You admit that you once thought you were strait and that you wish you were, why the change?

People are born with challenges to overcome them. It isn't fair, it isn't logical, but who said anything in life was fair or logical?

Why do you feel that just because I feel that homosexuality is a choice that I choose to discriminate. Where did I give that impression? If you do get the impression that I discriminate, then you are quite wrong.

I dont know about sickle cell animea, enlighten me, why has George Bush decided not to get rid of it? (as I am sure it is his fault somewhere)

StoneGOLD Member
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia


Posted:
Well Burzaruka, I see u missed the point again. I don't think u really want an honest answer because it might go against your preconceived prejudice. You have to make an effort you know.

Have u ever studied basic biology? Because this is way more complex than making people take off their clothes to determine what sex they are. Nature is not that simple.



If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh


MikeGinnyGOLD Member
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA


Posted:
Ask a biology teacher to tell you about why sickle-cell anemia, a genetic disease, is maintained in the population over time.

-Mike

Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella



A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura


DurbsBRONZE Member
Classically British
5,689 posts
Location: Epsom, Surrey, England


Posted:
Does a straight person choose to be attracted to a member of the opposite sex?
No
Does a homosexual person choose to be attracted to a member of the same sex?
No

Simple smile

Burner of Toast
Spinner of poi
Slacker of enormous magnitude


robotfacemember
190 posts

Posted:
I just thought I would point out, it's perfectly plausible and from my observations likely that for most people it's not a choice but for some it is.

Daimember
22 posts
Location: Aberystwyth/ Newcastle


Posted:
I think some people who've posted on this thread have some growing up to do! Firstly I don't for one second belive that homosexuality is evil or that it will bring about the downfall of civilization. With regards to reproduction there are > 6 billion people on this planet and even if 20% opoted not to have children (for whatever reason) I think the human race would carry on just fine.

I have no problems with people with contrsting views (to mine) as long as they fullfill the baisic unwriten rules of not harming or villifing others and not trying to brainwash others and to my knowledge very few people break these 'rules'.

I have no problem with homosexuals and in the past men have made advances towards me (god knows why - not exactly brad pitt) and I've always tried to respond with a firm but politte NO - as I would with a woman that didn't intrest me.
In summary I belive any mature civilized person can get on just fine with anyone else providing they're not a physcopathic killer, evil personoified or just plain dull ubblol

even a frisbee is a lethal weapon in the hands of the wrong person


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