Forums > Social Discussion > If I were President
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HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Posted:
I am a firm believer that if you are going to complain, offer an alternative.
With that in mind, this is the speech I would have given if I were President. This speech would have been broadcast within 24 hours of word of the prisoner tortures reaching my desk:
"My Fellow Americans, Citizens of Iraq, and People of the World:
"I have recently been made aware of the heinous abuses that have been perpetrated against prisoners under our guard in Iraq. I have been shocked and appalled by the information I have receieved.
"On behalf of all Americans, the U.S. Armed Forces, and especially those who perpretrated these horrific crimes, I offer my most sincere and humble apologies to all who have been affected, both directly and indirectly.
"Please rest assured that there will be a prompt and thorough investigation into these ghastly crimes. All individuals responsible will be apprehended, tried, and brought to swift and decisive justice.
"The United States has a proud history of treating our Prisoners of War with decency and humanity. We have strict policies regarding compliance with both the guidelines laid out in the Geneva Convention and with our own internal standards. These atrocities do not reflect the values of our people our our military.
"The torture of these prisoners has cast shame over our Armed Forces, and indeed over our entire nation. Furthermore, these events have poisoned our good will with the people of Iraq and with the people of the World and, as President, I will not stand for it.
"Thank you, and may God bless and watch over America, Iraq, and especially those who have been affected by these events."
I am a firm believer that if you are going to complain, offer an alternative.
With that in mind, this is the speech I would have given if I were President. This speech would have been broadcast within 24 hours of word of the prisoner tortures reaching my desk:
"My Fellow Americans, Citizens of Iraq, and People of the World:
"I have recently been made aware of the heinous abuses that have been perpetrated against prisoners under our guard in Iraq. I have been shocked and appalled by the information I have receieved.
"On behalf of all Americans, the U.S. Armed Forces, and especially those who perpretrated these horrific crimes, I offer my most sincere and humble apologies to all who have been affected, both directly and indirectly.
"Please rest assured that there will be a prompt and thorough investigation into these ghastly crimes. All individuals responsible will be apprehended, tried, and brought to swift and decisive justice.
"The United States has a proud history of treating our Prisoners of War with decency and humanity. We have strict policies regarding compliance with both the guidelines laid out in the Geneva Convention and with our own internal standards. These atrocities do not reflect the values of our people our our military.
"The torture of these prisoners has cast shame over our Armed Forces, and indeed over our entire nation. Furthermore, these events have poisoned our good will with the people of Iraq and with the people of the World and, as President, I will not stand for it.
"Thank you, and may God bless and watch over America, Iraq, and especially those who have been affected by these events."
-Mike
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella
A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura
enthusiast
233 posts
233 posts
Posted:
Some of the "torture" that the prisoners went through is actually almost comical when you think about it. Like the prisoner that was told to stand on this wooden box and if he fell off he would be electricuted... thats not torture, that is something that you would expect to find at rush week for any frat at any college in the US.
Some of it is mild psycological warfare. Sometimes saying please isnt enough to get someone to tell you the information that you want to know.
Besides in a recent poll by USA Today, like 80% or higher of Iraqis believe that Saddam tortured and murdered Iraqis. What these few individuals went through is comparitivly nothing compared to what saddam did.
Some of the "torture" that the prisoners went through is actually almost comical when you think about it. Like the prisoner that was told to stand on this wooden box and if he fell off he would be electricuted... thats not torture, that is something that you would expect to find at rush week for any frat at any college in the US.
Some of it is mild psycological warfare. Sometimes saying please isnt enough to get someone to tell you the information that you want to know.
Besides in a recent poll by USA Today, like 80% or higher of Iraqis believe that Saddam tortured and murdered Iraqis. What these few individuals went through is comparitivly nothing compared to what saddam did.
SILVER Member
Pooh-Bah
2,014 posts
Location: Galveston, TX, USA
Pooh-Bah
2,014 posts
Location: Galveston, TX, USA
Posted:
Burz, Just because the prisioners were not physically hit or "tortured" in the normal sense, what was done to them was wrong. Being humiliated can be just as bad and damaging as being physically tortured. Either way, guards should not have treated those people like they did.
Well said, Lightning, as usual...
Burz, Just because the prisioners were not physically hit or "tortured" in the normal sense, what was done to them was wrong. Being humiliated can be just as bad and damaging as being physically tortured. Either way, guards should not have treated those people like they did.
Well said, Lightning, as usual...
GOLD Member
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Posted:
Burz,
Remember, these aren't frat boys, they're prisoners. Their abusers aren't drunk college kids, they are armed guards. They lived in SHEER TERROR that they could be beaten or killed at any moment.
It's not trivial. In many ways, stress like that can be far worse than physical torture. "The misery of uncertainty is worse than the certainty of misery."
What Saddam did has NOTHING to do with what U.S. forces have done. I get sick and tired of people saying "At least we didn't kill them like Saddam!"
Is that where we are, then? You're comparing us to Saddam and congratulating us on our humanity and mercy because we're not as bad?
A lot of Iraqis are starting to miss the reign of Saddam. At least back then they knew the rules, things were predictable, if awful, and the electricity worked.
Burz,
Remember, these aren't frat boys, they're prisoners. Their abusers aren't drunk college kids, they are armed guards. They lived in SHEER TERROR that they could be beaten or killed at any moment.
It's not trivial. In many ways, stress like that can be far worse than physical torture. "The misery of uncertainty is worse than the certainty of misery."
What Saddam did has NOTHING to do with what U.S. forces have done. I get sick and tired of people saying "At least we didn't kill them like Saddam!"
Is that where we are, then? You're comparing us to Saddam and congratulating us on our humanity and mercy because we're not as bad?
A lot of Iraqis are starting to miss the reign of Saddam. At least back then they knew the rules, things were predictable, if awful, and the electricity worked.
-Mike
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella
A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura
member
33 posts
Location: Stoke-on-Trent (England)
33 posts
Location: Stoke-on-Trent (England)
Posted:
No torture should be comical. Did you see the British "torture" pics in America? It was sorta...odd......cant really describe it. Theres one of a "kick" when there looks at any rate as if there is absolutely no force in the kick....odd....mmm.....
No torture should be comical. Did you see the British "torture" pics in America? It was sorta...odd......cant really describe it. Theres one of a "kick" when there looks at any rate as if there is absolutely no force in the kick....odd....mmm.....
SILVER Member
Classic 90's Fire Dancer... Poi, Staff, Doubles, and Breathing
743 posts
Location: South Lake Tahoe, USA
Classic 90's Fire Dancer... Poi, Staff, Doubles, and Breathing
743 posts
Location: South Lake Tahoe, USA
Posted:
Now If I where Pres...
Id give huge Tax Breaks for people who look towards Alternative Energy.
For example; If you put solar pannals on your house, or use a windmill for electricity or water. This way we would not have such a strain on our electrical systems... Less Black outs.
Id have manditory breath-o-lizors for those who get caught driving while intoxicated. People need to get to work, and with out a car they are F*^%ed. So make the person have to instal a Breatholizor into their ignition (First Offence) Thier car will not start if they are drunk, and it will give people jobs to install them...
Id give huge tax breaks for Teachers and Police officers buying houses, for everyone could benifit with a teacher or officer in their naborhood.
I would Introduce Meditation and Yoga in Prisons,
And legalize Pot... But Tax the hell out of it. (it still would be cheeper)
Use the Money from the War against Drugs to educate people, Therefor Less people in Prison ... Instead of building these huge prisons and having to feed and house these folke we need to put this money into SCHOOLS and Free Universitys.
Thats just a few things I would do...
And I would try to Reverse everything this mad pres has done!
Now If I where Pres...
Id give huge Tax Breaks for people who look towards Alternative Energy.
For example; If you put solar pannals on your house, or use a windmill for electricity or water. This way we would not have such a strain on our electrical systems... Less Black outs.
Id have manditory breath-o-lizors for those who get caught driving while intoxicated. People need to get to work, and with out a car they are F*^%ed. So make the person have to instal a Breatholizor into their ignition (First Offence) Thier car will not start if they are drunk, and it will give people jobs to install them...
Id give huge tax breaks for Teachers and Police officers buying houses, for everyone could benifit with a teacher or officer in their naborhood.
I would Introduce Meditation and Yoga in Prisons,
And legalize Pot... But Tax the hell out of it. (it still would be cheeper)
Use the Money from the War against Drugs to educate people, Therefor Less people in Prison ... Instead of building these huge prisons and having to feed and house these folke we need to put this money into SCHOOLS and Free Universitys.
Thats just a few things I would do...
And I would try to Reverse everything this mad pres has done!
FIRE IS ALIVE!
IT LIVES AND BREATHS!
IT CONSUMES, AND DISTROYS!
BUT WE CONTROL IT,
AND DANCE WITH FIRE!!
BRONZE Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,009 posts
Location: Bristol, UK
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,009 posts
Location: Bristol, UK
Posted:
Burzaruka - what!!! You're not serious are you? Or are you really that insensitive ? Psychological torture. The body heals, but the mind can still feel the pain. At a stupid US frat maybe it could happen, but the person would know it was only a game and they wouldn't actually come to harm. In Iraq these are often (by the Pentagon's own admission) innocent people honestly fearing for their lives. Of course it's a massive deal and it is torture.
Add on top of this the fact that these are Muslims - and the degradation they were put through was designed to humiliate them and break their spirits. Your average frat kid stood on a box with a hood on his head, swaying drunkenly, has different sensibilities to a Muslim man.
And what's more it's an abandonment of international law, human rights and human decency. The US has consistently, willfully and from the highest levels of power, put itself outside of international law such as the Geneva convention and International Criminal Court.
The US spins the line that it's bringing freedom and democracy to Iraq. However almost every action it takes in Iraq gives evidence against this - nepotism, corruption, censorship, torture ... the list goes on. Every US citizen should be ashamed of their government.
Firstly, a lot of these people are picked up randomly, they're not 'enemy combatants'. The Pentagon has admitted that at least 40% of the people arrested and put through the jail in Iraq are innocent and probably shouldn't have been arrested.
Also this arguments supports torture and intimidation for criminal investigations within the US. Do you agree with this? There's a house broken into so all the dodgy looking men around that house get arrested, intimidated, tortured, sexually degraded and maybe a couple get murdered. This OK with you?
What is your point here? That it's OK to torture people if they're used to it as long as you're a bit kinder than the last torturer?
What I want to know is why it took so long for this to come out, especially in the US papers. These pictures have been on the front pages of almost every paper in the UK for the last week or more, and the week before was the pictures of the coffins returning home. In the US only a handful of the major papers ran a front page story with pictures. Is Joe America that scared of facing the brutal facts of a war it thought was easy?
Bit of a rant but Burzaruka, you really got me by being dismissive of something so fundamentally awful and wrong on so many levels.
Burzaruka - what!!! You're not serious are you? Or are you really that insensitive ? Psychological torture. The body heals, but the mind can still feel the pain. At a stupid US frat maybe it could happen, but the person would know it was only a game and they wouldn't actually come to harm. In Iraq these are often (by the Pentagon's own admission) innocent people honestly fearing for their lives. Of course it's a massive deal and it is torture.
Add on top of this the fact that these are Muslims - and the degradation they were put through was designed to humiliate them and break their spirits. Your average frat kid stood on a box with a hood on his head, swaying drunkenly, has different sensibilities to a Muslim man.
And what's more it's an abandonment of international law, human rights and human decency. The US has consistently, willfully and from the highest levels of power, put itself outside of international law such as the Geneva convention and International Criminal Court.
The US spins the line that it's bringing freedom and democracy to Iraq. However almost every action it takes in Iraq gives evidence against this - nepotism, corruption, censorship, torture ... the list goes on. Every US citizen should be ashamed of their government.
Quote:
Some of it is mild psycological warfare. Sometimes saying please isnt enough to get someone to tell you the information that you want to know.
Firstly, a lot of these people are picked up randomly, they're not 'enemy combatants'. The Pentagon has admitted that at least 40% of the people arrested and put through the jail in Iraq are innocent and probably shouldn't have been arrested.
Also this arguments supports torture and intimidation for criminal investigations within the US. Do you agree with this? There's a house broken into so all the dodgy looking men around that house get arrested, intimidated, tortured, sexually degraded and maybe a couple get murdered. This OK with you?
Quote:
Besides in a recent poll by USA Today, like 80% or higher of Iraqis believe that Saddam tortured and murdered Iraqis. What these few individuals went through is comparitivly nothing compared to what saddam did.
What is your point here? That it's OK to torture people if they're used to it as long as you're a bit kinder than the last torturer?
What I want to know is why it took so long for this to come out, especially in the US papers. These pictures have been on the front pages of almost every paper in the UK for the last week or more, and the week before was the pictures of the coffins returning home. In the US only a handful of the major papers ran a front page story with pictures. Is Joe America that scared of facing the brutal facts of a war it thought was easy?
Bit of a rant but Burzaruka, you really got me by being dismissive of something so fundamentally awful and wrong on so many levels.
SILVER Member
old hand
1,032 posts
Location: Madrid, United Kingdom
old hand
1,032 posts
Location: Madrid, United Kingdom
Posted:
"I don't take drugs. I am drugs" - Salvador Dali 
GOLD Member
ZORT!
3,045 posts
Location: Brisbane, Australia
ZORT!
3,045 posts
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Posted:
yay! id vote for you mike! apart from the complication of not being an US citizen though...
the entire thing is also a matter of principle. the US and UK are both signatories [is that the word?] of the Geneva Convention. i do not believe that Iraq ever was - as was clear from treatment of some captured military personal during the gulf war.
but the if we stoop to those levels of behaviour, we are just as bad as the previous goverment. the goal was to make iraq a better place to live, not an equally bad place to live.
hope ive explained that ok.
yay! id vote for you mike! apart from the complication of not being an US citizen though...
the entire thing is also a matter of principle. the US and UK are both signatories [is that the word?] of the Geneva Convention. i do not believe that Iraq ever was - as was clear from treatment of some captured military personal during the gulf war.
but the if we stoop to those levels of behaviour, we are just as bad as the previous goverment. the goal was to make iraq a better place to live, not an equally bad place to live.
hope ive explained that ok.
"Here kitty kitty...." - Schroedinger.
member
190 posts
190 posts
Posted:
Uh it's psycological torture, and there's strong evidence torture of any form is a bad way to get information anyways. There was a case in the US (my memory of this is sketchy so don't hold me to the exact facts) where the police hauled in a suspect in a rape murder case. They used
mild psychological torture techniques compared to what happened to these prisoners in Iraq. The guy confessed to the crime eventually, they thought multiple people were involved so they kept pressing, and he named his friend. They did the same thing to the guys friend, who named another friend, who named another friend.
Turns out an inmate in prison for another crime heard about it and confessed to the crime because he didn't want to see these men go to jail. They certainly got their confessions out of the men, they put them under so much strain they made up elaborate stories, and named their friends just to get out of the damn interview room.
That's just the practiical side of why they shouldn't be using any form of torture to extract information. Really I don't feel like stateing the ethics and morals, they have been covered by other people in this thread, and if they aren't blatantly obvious for you, then I feel a great swell of pity and sadness towards you.
Also it's convinient how you didn't mention the other torture that has come to light since the initial investigation, such as beatings, death threats issued with fire arms, sodomizing with broom handles and chemical glow lights etc...
Maybe if you were captured by foreign hostiles, forced to stand on a tiny box for several hours fearing if you fall you will die, or forced to take off your clothing and pile up with several other iraqi men while jeering and cheering hostile soldiers take pictures. Perhaps if someone beat you, threatened you with a loaded gun, sodomized you with a broom handle and psychologically tortured you day and night you would change your opinion on just how comical this is.
Also, Mike if you were president im sure you wouldn't violate the geneva convention by first takeing and publishing photo's of alqaida prisoners, locking them in kennels with no shelter from the sun in the hot cuban sun. (all this after rumsfeld condemmed the afghans for breaking the geneva convention for takeing and publishing photo's of american POW's marching alongside a road)
I don't think you would break the geneva convention again by photographing POW's in the war of iraq, again rumsfeld condemmed the iraqi's for doing the same thing.
Yeah, im pretty sure things would be a lot diffrent if mike was president.
PS-If you want to make comparisons, try comparing us to the militants in iraq presently who have been documented using the EXACT same tactics on various people they kidnapped (much like we kidnapped most of these prisoners)
EDITED_BY: robotface (1083902310)
Quote:
Some of it is mild psycological warfare. Sometimes saying please isnt enough to get someone to tell you the information that you want to know.
Uh it's psycological torture, and there's strong evidence torture of any form is a bad way to get information anyways. There was a case in the US (my memory of this is sketchy so don't hold me to the exact facts) where the police hauled in a suspect in a rape murder case. They used
mild psychological torture techniques compared to what happened to these prisoners in Iraq. The guy confessed to the crime eventually, they thought multiple people were involved so they kept pressing, and he named his friend. They did the same thing to the guys friend, who named another friend, who named another friend.
Turns out an inmate in prison for another crime heard about it and confessed to the crime because he didn't want to see these men go to jail. They certainly got their confessions out of the men, they put them under so much strain they made up elaborate stories, and named their friends just to get out of the damn interview room.
That's just the practiical side of why they shouldn't be using any form of torture to extract information. Really I don't feel like stateing the ethics and morals, they have been covered by other people in this thread, and if they aren't blatantly obvious for you, then I feel a great swell of pity and sadness towards you.
Also it's convinient how you didn't mention the other torture that has come to light since the initial investigation, such as beatings, death threats issued with fire arms, sodomizing with broom handles and chemical glow lights etc...
Maybe if you were captured by foreign hostiles, forced to stand on a tiny box for several hours fearing if you fall you will die, or forced to take off your clothing and pile up with several other iraqi men while jeering and cheering hostile soldiers take pictures. Perhaps if someone beat you, threatened you with a loaded gun, sodomized you with a broom handle and psychologically tortured you day and night you would change your opinion on just how comical this is.
Also, Mike if you were president im sure you wouldn't violate the geneva convention by first takeing and publishing photo's of alqaida prisoners, locking them in kennels with no shelter from the sun in the hot cuban sun. (all this after rumsfeld condemmed the afghans for breaking the geneva convention for takeing and publishing photo's of american POW's marching alongside a road)
I don't think you would break the geneva convention again by photographing POW's in the war of iraq, again rumsfeld condemmed the iraqi's for doing the same thing.
Yeah, im pretty sure things would be a lot diffrent if mike was president.
PS-If you want to make comparisons, try comparing us to the militants in iraq presently who have been documented using the EXACT same tactics on various people they kidnapped (much like we kidnapped most of these prisoners)
EDITED_BY: robotface (1083902310)
enthusiast
233 posts
233 posts
Posted:
Hold up fellas, time out please...
For clarification, I said SOME, not all, not most I said some. The messed up sexually degrading things they did, yes that was wrong. The dude standing on the box, sorry that was rather comical, TO ME.
Few Iraqis are missing the hell that was saddams rein. Hold up bud, the electricity is up, more power plants are running now than befor the war, hundreds of thousands of iraqis have sanitary drinking water, more than even befor the war. More hopitals and schools are open now than befor the war. Things are a lot better than they were.
If Saddam is a representitive of "humanity", then we should be very proud at our mercy.
Hobbitboy, you can't see the force in a kick if you choose the right frame to show people.
These people are fed, clothed have drinking water, actually better living conditions than they had while "free" citizens in the iraqi army. Why do you think so many troops surrenderd to the US, to the reporters!? Because they knew that the US would treat them better than their own commanders would. While granted this case doesnt exactly agree with the above,
The US isnt putting itself outside of the geniva convention, thats why those soldiers are getting into trouble. If they wernt, then you could say that the US was going outside the geniva convention.
Show me where you found that those who were tortured were part of that alleged 40% and where did you find that number anyhow?
Joe America, might just be tired of seeing Americans die because of the pompus BS that a few idiots. First 3000+ die in the attacks of 9/11, then a few hundred more in Afganistan, and now in Iraq Americans dieing on a reguler basis. Joe America is tired of seeing it in our papers.
Personally I feel that anything that can be done to get the killings to stop, to get our boys home quickly should be done. If that means the "mental anguish" of a few people then I am all for it.
I am a firm believer in the phrase, "The ends justify the means", it may not apply in every case, but I personally feel that it does when it applys to bringing US troops home.
I am sorry if you feel that I am wrong, I am sorry that you feel that what I have said is insensitive or just plain rude crude and socially unaaceptable, but it is what I feel.
I hold very little pity in my heart for anyone who would harbor ill towards any of the brave men and women who put foot to butt cheek every day to help out another country. It doesn't matter to them why Bush sent them there, they have a job to do and they are going to do it.
This is just the way I view it. Please don't take it too harshly.
chill and be happy 
Hold up fellas, time out please...
For clarification, I said SOME, not all, not most I said some. The messed up sexually degrading things they did, yes that was wrong. The dude standing on the box, sorry that was rather comical, TO ME.
Few Iraqis are missing the hell that was saddams rein. Hold up bud, the electricity is up, more power plants are running now than befor the war, hundreds of thousands of iraqis have sanitary drinking water, more than even befor the war. More hopitals and schools are open now than befor the war. Things are a lot better than they were.
If Saddam is a representitive of "humanity", then we should be very proud at our mercy.
Hobbitboy, you can't see the force in a kick if you choose the right frame to show people.
These people are fed, clothed have drinking water, actually better living conditions than they had while "free" citizens in the iraqi army. Why do you think so many troops surrenderd to the US, to the reporters!? Because they knew that the US would treat them better than their own commanders would. While granted this case doesnt exactly agree with the above,
The US isnt putting itself outside of the geniva convention, thats why those soldiers are getting into trouble. If they wernt, then you could say that the US was going outside the geniva convention.
Show me where you found that those who were tortured were part of that alleged 40% and where did you find that number anyhow?
Joe America, might just be tired of seeing Americans die because of the pompus BS that a few idiots. First 3000+ die in the attacks of 9/11, then a few hundred more in Afganistan, and now in Iraq Americans dieing on a reguler basis. Joe America is tired of seeing it in our papers.
Personally I feel that anything that can be done to get the killings to stop, to get our boys home quickly should be done. If that means the "mental anguish" of a few people then I am all for it.
I am a firm believer in the phrase, "The ends justify the means", it may not apply in every case, but I personally feel that it does when it applys to bringing US troops home.
I am sorry if you feel that I am wrong, I am sorry that you feel that what I have said is insensitive or just plain rude crude and socially unaaceptable, but it is what I feel.
I hold very little pity in my heart for anyone who would harbor ill towards any of the brave men and women who put foot to butt cheek every day to help out another country. It doesn't matter to them why Bush sent them there, they have a job to do and they are going to do it.
This is just the way I view it. Please don't take it too harshly.
chill and be happy GOLD Member
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Posted:
Really? Spoken to an Iraqi lately? One of my anatomy professors is Iraqi. He's got family there. He doesn't get the Government-Issue happy-horsedung news that people here get fed. He hears about it first-hand.
Life there sucks.
Quote:
Few Iraqis are missing the hell that was saddams rein. Hold up bud, the electricity is up, more power plants are running now than befor the war, hundreds of thousands of iraqis have sanitary drinking water, more than even befor the war. More hopitals and schools are open now than befor the war. Things are a lot better than they were.
Really? Spoken to an Iraqi lately? One of my anatomy professors is Iraqi. He's got family there. He doesn't get the Government-Issue happy-horsedung news that people here get fed. He hears about it first-hand.
Life there sucks.
-Mike
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella
A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura
enthusiast
233 posts
233 posts
Posted:
Calm and collected Iraqis who have done nothing wrong. Just incase you were wondering those are humans.
Nope havnt talked to any Iraqi's, just have a brother and a cousin one at Camp Fellujha and one at BIAP. So my family and I get the real news too. Things are a lot better than they were. Maybe not everywhere, but improvements are being made
Calm and collected Iraqis who have done nothing wrong. Just incase you were wondering those are humans.
Nope havnt talked to any Iraqi's, just have a brother and a cousin one at Camp Fellujha and one at BIAP. So my family and I get the real news too. Things are a lot better than they were. Maybe not everywhere, but improvements are being made
GOLD Member
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Posted:
I see, so it's OK to blame all Iraqis for the crimes of a few.
Gawd. That attitude is soo 80's.
Quote:
Calm and collected Iraqis who have done nothing wrong. Just incase you were wondering those are humans.
I see, so it's OK to blame all Iraqis for the crimes of a few.
Gawd. That attitude is soo 80's.
-Mike
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella
A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura
enthusiast
233 posts
233 posts
Posted:
Where did I say blame all Iraqis? I was just showing the people that far worse is done with the mob mentality. I am not saying either is right, just showing another side to the coin.
Edit,
And why not, is it not the general consencis that the all the members US armed forces are responsible for the treatment of those prisoners?
Look at what the US is doing, not look at what a few individuals are doing.
EDITED_BY: Burzaruka (1083904765)
Where did I say blame all Iraqis? I was just showing the people that far worse is done with the mob mentality. I am not saying either is right, just showing another side to the coin.
Edit,
And why not, is it not the general consencis that the all the members US armed forces are responsible for the treatment of those prisoners?
Look at what the US is doing, not look at what a few individuals are doing.
EDITED_BY: Burzaruka (1083904765)
BRONZE Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,009 posts
Location: Bristol, UK
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,009 posts
Location: Bristol, UK
Posted:
By the sounds of it killing 600 innocent civilians, closing down a hospital to use as a military base, using snipers who picked off women, children and the elderly to get revenge for the murder of 4 security contractors. Yes it was an awful thing they did to those guys, but they knew the risk in being contractors in Iraq and got paid well to take the risk.
By using those photos you're playing the same game the media and government does - look what happened to us so it's OK to do it back.
If you truly stands up for justice, freedom, democracy, human rights, human dignity and freedom of speech then you act with these values no matter what happens to you. This is why people like Nelson Mandela, Martin Luther King, Jesus et al are so respected - they didn't put down what they believed in when they were attacked, they faced those attacks with more of what they believed in.
A little bit a bout 'revenge', because regardless of what people say it does play a huge part in people's thinking about Iraq:
Revenge is something we desire when we are powerless. We desire to strike back at those who have caused or abused our powerlessness. However when we're in a position to extract that revenge it is no longer revenge, it is abuse of power. To be truly great one must rise above lowering ourselves to the level of those we despise.
Quote:
Look at what the US is doing, not look at what a few individuals are doing.
By the sounds of it killing 600 innocent civilians, closing down a hospital to use as a military base, using snipers who picked off women, children and the elderly to get revenge for the murder of 4 security contractors. Yes it was an awful thing they did to those guys, but they knew the risk in being contractors in Iraq and got paid well to take the risk.
By using those photos you're playing the same game the media and government does - look what happened to us so it's OK to do it back.
If you truly stands up for justice, freedom, democracy, human rights, human dignity and freedom of speech then you act with these values no matter what happens to you. This is why people like Nelson Mandela, Martin Luther King, Jesus et al are so respected - they didn't put down what they believed in when they were attacked, they faced those attacks with more of what they believed in.
A little bit a bout 'revenge', because regardless of what people say it does play a huge part in people's thinking about Iraq:
Revenge is something we desire when we are powerless. We desire to strike back at those who have caused or abused our powerlessness. However when we're in a position to extract that revenge it is no longer revenge, it is abuse of power. To be truly great one must rise above lowering ourselves to the level of those we despise.
BRONZE Member
member
27 posts
Location: Leicester, England.
member
27 posts
Location: Leicester, England.
Posted:
Not to mention the sheer hypocrisy the US and UK media have shown in publishing some of the photos. If photo of a dead US/UK citizen wrapped in nothing but clingfilm were printed in an Arabic newspaper, then we would hear about breaking the Geneva Convention. I accept that this abuse should have been made public, as sadly it seems the only way the US goverment was ever going to do something about it, I just think a bit of respect should have been paid to the prisoners, at least to disguise their identity and save their families the humiliation.
Not to mention the sheer hypocrisy the US and UK media have shown in publishing some of the photos. If photo of a dead US/UK citizen wrapped in nothing but clingfilm were printed in an Arabic newspaper, then we would hear about breaking the Geneva Convention. I accept that this abuse should have been made public, as sadly it seems the only way the US goverment was ever going to do something about it, I just think a bit of respect should have been paid to the prisoners, at least to disguise their identity and save their families the humiliation.
Pooh-Bah
1,662 posts
Location: Bristol
1,662 posts
Location: Bristol
Posted:
if i were president...
well basically, i wouldn't be. I think Bush is a bit of an idiot frankly, and there have been much better presidents, but i coudln't do it. I wouldn't have gone to war, but what would i have done in his place? i don't know, and i can't think about it, if i was in his shoes with all the pressures, offers of bribes, whatever, i don't know if i could do any better.
scary thoguhts.
if i were president...
well basically, i wouldn't be. I think Bush is a bit of an idiot frankly, and there have been much better presidents, but i coudln't do it. I wouldn't have gone to war, but what would i have done in his place? i don't know, and i can't think about it, if i was in his shoes with all the pressures, offers of bribes, whatever, i don't know if i could do any better.
scary thoguhts.
I had a dream that my friend had a
strong-bad pop up book,
it was the book of my dreams.
GOLD Member
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Posted:
You choose to be a member of the US Armed Forces. You don't choose to be Iraqi.
Tell me, if you were one of those guards, would you have been cowed into doing stuff like this? The fact that you consider it "comical" makes me think so. After all, the guards seemed to find it comical.
Quote:
Where did I say blame all Iraqis? I was just showing the people that far worse is done with the mob mentality. I am not saying either is right, just showing another side to the coin.
Edit,
And why not, is it not the general consencis that the all the members US armed forces are responsible for the treatment of those prisoners?
You choose to be a member of the US Armed Forces. You don't choose to be Iraqi.
Tell me, if you were one of those guards, would you have been cowed into doing stuff like this? The fact that you consider it "comical" makes me think so. After all, the guards seemed to find it comical.
-Mike
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella
A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura
member
21 posts
Location: Cairns, Australia
21 posts
Location: Cairns, Australia
Posted:
Omg...not to be rude or anything....or insensative, but i agree with that burzuka guy in post 28...sorry to people's that know me I am usually really sensative towards these issues, it's just my best friends father died in the world trade center on 9-11 and all i saw on tv was the iraqs running around having a good time celebrating what there people have done.
In my opinion I would rather 10 people die to find out information than wait for the next couple of thousands of people to die.
Sorry guys if you have taken any offense to this
Omg...not to be rude or anything....or insensative, but i agree with that burzuka guy in post 28...sorry to people's that know me I am usually really sensative towards these issues, it's just my best friends father died in the world trade center on 9-11 and all i saw on tv was the iraqs running around having a good time celebrating what there people have done.
In my opinion I would rather 10 people die to find out information than wait for the next couple of thousands of people to die.
Sorry guys if you have taken any offense to this
You bastard!
GOLD Member
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Posted:
No, Burz. YOU look at what the U.S. is doing. There is no hope of democracy, militias and cadres have popped up everywhere. The power doesn't stay on (in spite of your claims to the contrary), thugs and thieves control the streets, the police don't do their job, the water is often unsafe to drink and people never know when it is safe to drink. People don't know when they are going to be arrested at random by some American patrol.
The U.S. has thrown Iraq out of the pan and into the fire. It's a travesty.
And if Bush weren't so arrogant and were actually willing to listen to some sound cultural advice from his advisors, we wouldn't be in this mess now.
And no, I'm not making up some "Liberal whining." I deal in raw fact and draw conclusions from that. You talk to Dr. Raouf about his family and the situation in Iraq and then you tell me that the U.S. has done a good thing there.
Quote:
Look at what the US is doing, not look at what a few individuals are doing.
No, Burz. YOU look at what the U.S. is doing. There is no hope of democracy, militias and cadres have popped up everywhere. The power doesn't stay on (in spite of your claims to the contrary), thugs and thieves control the streets, the police don't do their job, the water is often unsafe to drink and people never know when it is safe to drink. People don't know when they are going to be arrested at random by some American patrol.
The U.S. has thrown Iraq out of the pan and into the fire. It's a travesty.
And if Bush weren't so arrogant and were actually willing to listen to some sound cultural advice from his advisors, we wouldn't be in this mess now.
And no, I'm not making up some "Liberal whining." I deal in raw fact and draw conclusions from that. You talk to Dr. Raouf about his family and the situation in Iraq and then you tell me that the U.S. has done a good thing there.
-Mike
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella
A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura
GOLD Member
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Posted:
Really? You saw every Iraqi running around? Or you saw some massive demonstration organized by Saddam?
Quote:
Omg...not to be rude or anything....or insensative, but i agree with that burzuka guy in post 28...sorry to people's that know me I am usually really sensative towards these issues, it's just my best friends father died in the world trade center on 9-11 and all i saw on tv was the iraqs running around having a good time celebrating what there people have done.
Really? You saw every Iraqi running around? Or you saw some massive demonstration organized by Saddam?
-Mike
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella
A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura
NYC
9,232 posts
Location: NYC, NY, USA
9,232 posts
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Posted:
To take a small but relevant tangent. I suddenly realized that I have NO idea what's going on in Iraq. I honestly don't know if 90% of the country is living normally or 90% of the country is in complete chaos. I mean clearly there are some disruptions but I feel that the media coming out of Iraq from ALL points is so skewed and misleading (on both sides) that I really have no sense of what reality is.
(Another Tangent) Having been in Los Angeles during the "Rodney King Riots" and the Earthquake in the 90s and fires and basket ball 'riots' as well, I can say that the media can make a mountain out of a mole hill and a mole hill out of a mountain... depending on what lens they chose to shoot through that day.
My biggest concern recently is that I really feel like I have NO idea what's going on in Iraq anymore due to both sides of media bias and political spin. I do understand it's bad, but am lost as to the specifics of the badness.
To take a small but relevant tangent. I suddenly realized that I have NO idea what's going on in Iraq. I honestly don't know if 90% of the country is living normally or 90% of the country is in complete chaos. I mean clearly there are some disruptions but I feel that the media coming out of Iraq from ALL points is so skewed and misleading (on both sides) that I really have no sense of what reality is.
(Another Tangent) Having been in Los Angeles during the "Rodney King Riots" and the Earthquake in the 90s and fires and basket ball 'riots' as well, I can say that the media can make a mountain out of a mole hill and a mole hill out of a mountain... depending on what lens they chose to shoot through that day.
My biggest concern recently is that I really feel like I have NO idea what's going on in Iraq anymore due to both sides of media bias and political spin. I do understand it's bad, but am lost as to the specifics of the badness.
Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]
GOLD Member
Mand's Girl....and The Not So Shy One
2,723 posts
Location: Calgary, Alberta Canada
Mand's Girl....and The Not So Shy One
2,723 posts
Location: Calgary, Alberta Canada
Posted:
Unfortunately, the media does put its spin on things. We don't know the real story, though I imagine the truth is somewhere between what the US media and what the Middle East Media reports....
Quote:
To take a small but relevant tangent. I suddenly realized that I have NO idea what's going on in Iraq. I honestly don't know if 90% of the country is living normally or 90% of the country is in complete chaos. I mean clearly there are some disruptions but I feel that the media coming out of Iraq from ALL points is so skewed and misleading (on both sides) that I really have no sense of what reality is.
(Another Tangent) Having been in Los Angeles during the "Rodney King Riots" and the Earthquake in the 90s and fires and basket ball 'riots' as well, I can say that the media can make a mountain out of a mole hill and a mole hill out of a mountain... depending on what lens they chose to shoot through that day.
My biggest concern recently is that I really feel like I have NO idea what's going on in Iraq anymore due to both sides of media bias and political spin. I do understand it's bad, but am lost as to the specifics of the badness.
Unfortunately, the media does put its spin on things. We don't know the real story, though I imagine the truth is somewhere between what the US media and what the Middle East Media reports....
Solitude sometimes speaks to you, and you should listen.
SILVER Member
Classic 90's Fire Dancer... Poi, Staff, Doubles, and Breathing
743 posts
Location: South Lake Tahoe, USA
Classic 90's Fire Dancer... Poi, Staff, Doubles, and Breathing
743 posts
Location: South Lake Tahoe, USA
Posted:
Bush is proof that a 'C' average, Partying Student can be President!
(Mike is well over that)
I say ...
The only Bush I like is my Girlfriends, and READ HER LIPS... NO BUSH!!
LICK BUSH IN 04' My Friends!
~Fire Spirit
Bush is proof that a 'C' average, Partying Student can be President!
(Mike is well over that)
I say ...
The only Bush I like is my Girlfriends, and READ HER LIPS... NO BUSH!!
LICK BUSH IN 04' My Friends!
~Fire Spirit
FIRE IS ALIVE!
IT LIVES AND BREATHS!
IT CONSUMES, AND DISTROYS!
BUT WE CONTROL IT,
AND DANCE WITH FIRE!!
GOLD Member
Self-Flagellation Expert
3,414 posts
Location: Bogged at CG, Australia
Self-Flagellation Expert
3,414 posts
Location: Bogged at CG, Australia
Posted:
ok, detangentising here.
Im not entirely certain on this, but i heard today that the US isnt actually a signatory to the international war crimes convention. Thus, even if they did and do contravene the geneva convention, then they cant actually be gotten for it. Like i say, im not certain on any of those points, so dont shoot me if im wrong. (My apologies to those that may have found the previous statement to be in bad taste)
One of the scarier things about this, is that nobody is really in a position to do anything to the US, in any case. I honestly think that if the entire rest of the world were to gang up against them, america would still win. There might not be much left of the rest of the world, but meh.
Anyways, what those soldiers did was wrong. Morally, socially, ethically, legally, it was wrong. no two ways about it. however, if by torturing those people, they managed to save the lives of others, was it not worth it? be those lives american, iraqi, pakistani, turkish, greek, or french venezualan, the saving of even just one life, as a direct result would make that torture worth it. not right, not by a long shot, but worth it.
And for those that will disagree, and there will be some of you, for my views and opinions wont make everyone happy, then what if by their torture, your life was saved? would it be ok then? would it be worth it then? what about your spouses, your children, your parents, your friends? what about if there was a plot akin to 9/11, that had been foiled, saving thousands?
In any case, ol' uncle sam has dropped a couple of points in my books.
ok, detangentising here.
Im not entirely certain on this, but i heard today that the US isnt actually a signatory to the international war crimes convention. Thus, even if they did and do contravene the geneva convention, then they cant actually be gotten for it. Like i say, im not certain on any of those points, so dont shoot me if im wrong. (My apologies to those that may have found the previous statement to be in bad taste)
One of the scarier things about this, is that nobody is really in a position to do anything to the US, in any case. I honestly think that if the entire rest of the world were to gang up against them, america would still win. There might not be much left of the rest of the world, but meh.
Anyways, what those soldiers did was wrong. Morally, socially, ethically, legally, it was wrong. no two ways about it. however, if by torturing those people, they managed to save the lives of others, was it not worth it? be those lives american, iraqi, pakistani, turkish, greek, or french venezualan, the saving of even just one life, as a direct result would make that torture worth it. not right, not by a long shot, but worth it.
And for those that will disagree, and there will be some of you, for my views and opinions wont make everyone happy, then what if by their torture, your life was saved? would it be ok then? would it be worth it then? what about your spouses, your children, your parents, your friends? what about if there was a plot akin to 9/11, that had been foiled, saving thousands?
In any case, ol' uncle sam has dropped a couple of points in my books.
"beg beg grovel beg grovel"
"master"
--FSA
"There was an arse there, i couldn't help myself"
--Rougie
enthusiast
233 posts
233 posts
Posted:
That is an amazing thing the circus2iraq people are doing. I read some of the stories, but let's try to look at things logically.
What would the positive outcome be for a US Sniper to shoot a child in the head?
Maybe the US sniper is a sick man with terrible idea of what fun and he might get a momentary thrill from the adreniline rush.
What would the positive outcome be for an insergant Sniper to shoot a child in the head?
The Iraqi people might possibly think that it was an American that shot the child and thus be more sypathetic to the insurgants cause.
Does anybody see something that doesn't jive?
BTW Lightning, if you loose hope for a better tomorrow, then there is no point in living. Because even if tomorrow gets better, you will have closed your eyes to the improvment and will never see it untill you regain your hope. Democracy can happen, look at the US history, there were militias and cartels during the colonial days. Yes they were called differnt things, yet the extremity of the violence was still the same. Hope in self rule and freedom from a tyrant thousands of miles away was not something everyone had, but the few that did turned things around.
Iraq has to find their own ardent patriots, they wont find them in the militias and cartels, they will find them within the people who still have hope that Iraq will be a better place.
Not every Iraqi is anti-US. There are a lot who join the mob mentality and cheer when they see an American drug through the streets of the city, or laugh as a soldier's corpes is burnt from a street light. Organised by Saddam? I think not. Just people being inhumane, monsters.
You asked me if I were in the soldiers shoes, would I be cowed into "stuff like this" (refering to the torture). Some of it I probably would, the sexually degrading stuff... I could never allow myself to be part of or tolorate it being done near me. No body deserves to have something like that done to them.
I read a book, actually reading the series, called The Sword of Truth series. The first book being The Wizards First Rule. In the book there is a part where Zed, a wizard, and his friend Richard are being attacked by a mob of men who fear magic and want to kill Zed because they found out he was a wizard. Instead of slaughtering the men, he makes them think that their... manhood, has vanished. Humorus yes the way it happens in the book was great I loved it.
The result was the men dropped their weapons and ran home.
A man standing on a box and being told to that if he falls off he will be electricuted and the only way he will get off the box and still live is to tell the interigators what they want to know, is not torture. It is using what the man thinks to be true to coherse him into talking. It isnt tramatic because as soon as they are done with him they take the blindfold off and he realises that he is standing on a wooden box in the middle of a cement room and that the "wires" connected to his fingers are just hooked to a harmless hook in ceiling. That I find humorus. If I you think I am a bad person for thinking that... well thats the way it goes and I really wont try to change your opinoin.
That is an amazing thing the circus2iraq people are doing. I read some of the stories, but let's try to look at things logically.
What would the positive outcome be for a US Sniper to shoot a child in the head?
Maybe the US sniper is a sick man with terrible idea of what fun and he might get a momentary thrill from the adreniline rush.
What would the positive outcome be for an insergant Sniper to shoot a child in the head?
The Iraqi people might possibly think that it was an American that shot the child and thus be more sypathetic to the insurgants cause.
Does anybody see something that doesn't jive?
BTW Lightning, if you loose hope for a better tomorrow, then there is no point in living. Because even if tomorrow gets better, you will have closed your eyes to the improvment and will never see it untill you regain your hope. Democracy can happen, look at the US history, there were militias and cartels during the colonial days. Yes they were called differnt things, yet the extremity of the violence was still the same. Hope in self rule and freedom from a tyrant thousands of miles away was not something everyone had, but the few that did turned things around.
Iraq has to find their own ardent patriots, they wont find them in the militias and cartels, they will find them within the people who still have hope that Iraq will be a better place.
Not every Iraqi is anti-US. There are a lot who join the mob mentality and cheer when they see an American drug through the streets of the city, or laugh as a soldier's corpes is burnt from a street light. Organised by Saddam? I think not. Just people being inhumane, monsters.
You asked me if I were in the soldiers shoes, would I be cowed into "stuff like this" (refering to the torture). Some of it I probably would, the sexually degrading stuff... I could never allow myself to be part of or tolorate it being done near me. No body deserves to have something like that done to them.
I read a book, actually reading the series, called The Sword of Truth series. The first book being The Wizards First Rule. In the book there is a part where Zed, a wizard, and his friend Richard are being attacked by a mob of men who fear magic and want to kill Zed because they found out he was a wizard. Instead of slaughtering the men, he makes them think that their... manhood, has vanished. Humorus yes the way it happens in the book was great I loved it.
The result was the men dropped their weapons and ran home.
A man standing on a box and being told to that if he falls off he will be electricuted and the only way he will get off the box and still live is to tell the interigators what they want to know, is not torture. It is using what the man thinks to be true to coherse him into talking. It isnt tramatic because as soon as they are done with him they take the blindfold off and he realises that he is standing on a wooden box in the middle of a cement room and that the "wires" connected to his fingers are just hooked to a harmless hook in ceiling. That I find humorus. If I you think I am a bad person for thinking that... well thats the way it goes and I really wont try to change your opinoin.
member
190 posts
190 posts
Posted:
If I torture you for several days doing the things these people did, put you on a box and tell you to tell me the truth and I will disconnect the wires, you will tell me a lie to get off the damn box. Like I said, torture accomplishes nothing. Acting on misinformation from the imaginations of battered prisoners could quite possibly cost lives, not save them.
If I torture you for several days doing the things these people did, put you on a box and tell you to tell me the truth and I will disconnect the wires, you will tell me a lie to get off the damn box. Like I said, torture accomplishes nothing. Acting on misinformation from the imaginations of battered prisoners could quite possibly cost lives, not save them.
GOLD Member
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Posted:
There's a great line from Reservoir Dogs (a movie I hated, BTW).
"If you beat him long enough, he'll tell you he killed John
Kennedy, but it don't necessarily make it so!"
There's a great line from Reservoir Dogs (a movie I hated, BTW).
"If you beat him long enough, he'll tell you he killed John
Kennedy, but it don't necessarily make it so!" -Mike
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella
A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura
member
190 posts
190 posts
Posted:
it was "actually If you beat this prick long enough, he'll tell you he started the Chicago fire, now that don't necessarily make it so!"
it was "actually If you
beat this prick long enough, he'll tell you he started the Chicago fire, now that don't necessarily make it so!" SILVER Member
Pooh-Bah
2,014 posts
Location: Galveston, TX, USA
Pooh-Bah
2,014 posts
Location: Galveston, TX, USA
Posted:
Lightning, have you been listening to the news conference going on at the moment about this issue? It's actually kinda interesting and on here on CBS for sure so I'm guessing others as well.
Lightning, have you been listening to the news conference going on at the moment about this issue? It's actually kinda interesting and on here on CBS for sure so I'm guessing others as well.
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