Forums > Social Discussion > Bush and Kerry in Dead Heat
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HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Posted:
I don't get it. I don't get this country. I wonder what has happened to the significant percentage of Americans who still plan on voting for Bush.
Our economy is in shambles, the situation in Iraq is dismal, civil rights are being trampled, our government is looking more and more like a dictatorship every day (and that's not a statement I make lightly because I am well aware that we still have a very long way to go before we are truly a dictatorship), and yet half of Americans who plan to vote want Bush to continue as President.
I sure hope that election day brings a very big pleasant surprise.
But it makes me sad and frightened for what this means about our country, about our people, and about the values that we as Americans hold. The fact that political discussion message boards are full of messages hailing the torture situation in Iraq as "deserved" and "just" makes me physically ill.
The fact that our President FORGOT to apologize at the earliest opportunity (and just now released a statement of apology) made me flush with rage.
I am ASHAMED to be an American today. I haven't been proud of it for a long time, but I am downright ASHAMED today.
I don't get it. I don't get this country. I wonder what has happened to the significant percentage of Americans who still plan on voting for Bush.
Our economy is in shambles, the situation in Iraq is dismal, civil rights are being trampled, our government is looking more and more like a dictatorship every day (and that's not a statement I make lightly because I am well aware that we still have a very long way to go before we are truly a dictatorship), and yet half of Americans who plan to vote want Bush to continue as President.
I sure hope that election day brings a very big pleasant surprise.
But it makes me sad and frightened for what this means about our country, about our people, and about the values that we as Americans hold. The fact that political discussion message boards are full of messages hailing the torture situation in Iraq as "deserved" and "just" makes me physically ill.
The fact that our President FORGOT to apologize at the earliest opportunity (and just now released a statement of apology) made me flush with rage.
I am ASHAMED to be an American today. I haven't been proud of it for a long time, but I am downright ASHAMED today.
-Mike
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella
A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura
SILVER Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,899 posts
Location: Austin, Texas, USA
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,899 posts
Location: Austin, Texas, USA
Posted:
one thing to remember is that only 40% of americans vote (and when they do the polls, they try to be very careful to reach that 40%), so in reality it is only like 20% of Americans support Bush.
Well, at least that is how I justify it in my head.
Of course, if Nader were to drop out of the race, Kerry would have a clear lead....
one thing to remember is that only 40% of americans vote (and when they do the polls, they try to be very careful to reach that 40%), so in reality it is only like 20% of Americans support Bush.
Well, at least that is how I justify it in my head.
Of course, if Nader were to drop out of the race, Kerry would have a clear lead....
-v-
Wiederstand ist Zwecklos!
SILVER Member
Pooh-Bah
2,014 posts
Location: Galveston, TX, USA
Pooh-Bah
2,014 posts
Location: Galveston, TX, USA
Posted:
I've actually found that a lot of people support Bush because they believe he is a good religious and moral leader. They find comfort in the fact that he thanks God (or some such phrase) in each speech he makes.
I was amazed the first time I head someone say that to me while waiting to get blood drawn in the hospital clinic where I work. I've heard it multiple times since then as well, and it still surprises me each time because they think he is a wonderful president simply because of this. They refuse to look at any of the other issues.
I, too, am baffled by it all...
I've actually found that a lot of people support Bush because they believe he is a good religious and moral leader. They find comfort in the fact that he thanks God (or some such phrase) in each speech he makes.
I was amazed the first time I head someone say that to me while waiting to get blood drawn in the hospital clinic where I work. I've heard it multiple times since then as well, and it still surprises me each time because they think he is a wonderful president simply because of this. They refuse to look at any of the other issues.
I, too, am baffled by it all...
SILVER Member
addict
469 posts
Location: nottingham, england. cornwall wales denmark or pra...
addict
469 posts
Location: nottingham, england. cornwall wales denmark or pra...
Posted:
stop beating yourself up about it mate.
where you were born is not your fault.
take pride in the parts of being american you admire and adhere to these ideals
despise the parts you dont like and oppose them if you want/can
i take pride in some parts of being english (the stereotypical stuff about being polite courteous holding doors open for women well spoken etc)
then you think about brits abroad *shudder* stereotypically larger swilling tossers with violent football crazed intent
theres very little you can do about your government (especially when the polls are fixed)
theres nothing you can do about your birthplace.
but what you ARE IS TOTALLY SEPERATE FROM THOSE
ive read your posts, you know your stuff, you seem like a good blokey.
so stop being hard on your self for being american
NOW
Best regards. smit
and a rare cheer up smiley too
Quote:
I am ASHAMED to be an American today. I haven't been proud of it for a long time, but I am downright ASHAMED today.
stop beating yourself up about it mate.
where you were born is not your fault.
take pride in the parts of being american you admire and adhere to these ideals
despise the parts you dont like and oppose them if you want/can
i take pride in some parts of being english (the stereotypical stuff about being polite courteous holding doors open for women well spoken etc)
then you think about brits abroad *shudder* stereotypically larger swilling tossers with violent football crazed intent
theres very little you can do about your government (especially when the polls are fixed)
theres nothing you can do about your birthplace.
but what you ARE IS TOTALLY SEPERATE FROM THOSE
ive read your posts, you know your stuff, you seem like a good blokey.
so stop being hard on your self for being american
NOW
Best regards. smit
and a rare cheer up smiley too
my original signature was tooo long.
this one is shorter
NYC
9,232 posts
Location: NYC, NY, USA
9,232 posts
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Posted:
Mike dude... we've talked about it before... America LOVES Bush! He's cleaning up the Gay problem. He's saving the economy (wait til gas prices drop before November!!!) PLUS we're killing people that wear towels on their head with REALLY cool tanks!!! Have you seen how cool our tanks are?!?
Bush will win because America LOVES the direction our country is going in.
America LOVES the war on Terror (not terrorism itself, but the war on it... heck, we play video games about it! Have you played SoCom online yet? Its sooo cool!)
The economy is GREAT. Wait till all our defence contracts come in. Plus, with more people getting sent to Iraq and dieing... MORE JOBS IN THE US!
America saw how the movie ends... Rambo blows up the badguy Iraqi and then flys away in a super cool helicoptor. (Have you seen how cool our helicoptors are?)
First the Iraqis kill those guys in "Blackhawk Down"... then they hit the world trade center and the pentagon?! "Kill em all and let God sort them out!"
Bush will be elected and America will love it.
As long as he's killing more Iraqis than Americans (BTW, have you SEEN the Iraq vs. America scoreboard?!?! It's like 10,000 - 700 kills!!! That's a bigger margin of victory then when our basketball team plays thiers!!!) and as long as he's not getting any bl#wj#bs from fat chicks (like that pesky liberal Clinton) then he's the American Dream.
4 more years of GW, then his dad can take over again.
4 More years! 4 More Years! U-S-A!!! U-S-A!!!
Mike dude... we've talked about it before... America LOVES Bush! He's cleaning up the Gay problem. He's saving the economy (wait til gas prices drop before November!!!) PLUS we're killing people that wear towels on their head with REALLY cool tanks!!! Have you seen how cool our tanks are?!?
Bush will win because America LOVES the direction our country is going in.
America LOVES the war on Terror (not terrorism itself, but the war on it... heck, we play video games about it! Have you played SoCom online yet? Its sooo cool!)
The economy is GREAT. Wait till all our defence contracts come in. Plus, with more people getting sent to Iraq and dieing... MORE JOBS IN THE US!
America saw how the movie ends... Rambo blows up the badguy Iraqi and then flys away in a super cool helicoptor. (Have you seen how cool our helicoptors are?)
First the Iraqis kill those guys in "Blackhawk Down"... then they hit the world trade center and the pentagon?! "Kill em all and let God sort them out!"
Bush will be elected and America will love it.
As long as he's killing more Iraqis than Americans (BTW, have you SEEN the Iraq vs. America scoreboard?!?! It's like 10,000 - 700 kills!!! That's a bigger margin of victory then when our basketball team plays thiers!!!) and as long as he's not getting any bl#wj#bs from fat chicks (like that pesky liberal Clinton) then he's the American Dream.
4 more years of GW, then his dad can take over again.
4 More years! 4 More Years! U-S-A!!! U-S-A!!!
Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]
member
190 posts
190 posts
Posted:
Canada is headed in the same direction (piggy backing the americans for a large part) on a bit gentler tangent, and I have the same feelings as you do about it mike.
Canada is headed in the same direction (piggy backing the americans for a large part) on a bit gentler tangent, and I have the same feelings as you do about it mike.
GOLD Member
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Posted:
It makes me sad because it shows me that the American people are uninterested in logic and reason and care for nothing other than ensuring that their religion is institutionalized in the government. They are brainwashed.
On top of being blatantly in complete defiance of the will of the Founding Fathers, it makes me wonder what kind of stupidity makes people put their religion above anything tangible.
I think that concerns me more than anything else. If this country will go down the road of dictatorship, it will be the worst kind: theocratic dictatorship.
Quote:
I was amazed the first time I head someone say that to me while waiting to get blood drawn in the hospital clinic where I work. I've heard it multiple times since then as well, and it still surprises me each time because they think he is a wonderful president simply because of this. They refuse to look at any of the other issues.
It makes me sad because it shows me that the American people are uninterested in logic and reason and care for nothing other than ensuring that their religion is institutionalized in the government. They are brainwashed.
On top of being blatantly in complete defiance of the will of the Founding Fathers, it makes me wonder what kind of stupidity makes people put their religion above anything tangible.
I think that concerns me more than anything else. If this country will go down the road of dictatorship, it will be the worst kind: theocratic dictatorship.
-Mike
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella
A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura
member
33 posts
Location: Stoke-on-Trent (England)
33 posts
Location: Stoke-on-Trent (England)
Posted:
Its sad when you can't fly your nations flag cos it's politically incorrect
Its sad when you can't fly your nations flag cos it's politically incorrect
GOLD Member
Mand's Girl....and The Not So Shy One
2,723 posts
Location: Calgary, Alberta Canada
Mand's Girl....and The Not So Shy One
2,723 posts
Location: Calgary, Alberta Canada
Posted:
You know...I had a very long reply giving my take on why Americans tend to be so blind...but....it's exactly that, my take.
One thing to note? If I recall .... in the early 90's, the Christian Coalition (Christian Right) became a player in the political arena.
Churches and Church leaders slid quietly into the GOP's back pocket, and the Christian Coalition started a grass roots push to get folks into office on all levels.
This nation's always had a significant religious element to it, but that element stayed out of the government, for the most part. At times of war, or tragedy, presidents might say something like "God Bless America," or some such, but, overall, the separation of Church and State was maintained.
I think the Christian Coalition would like to see the Separation of Church and state go buh bye. I think they've got church leaders in their back pocket, and preach to their congregations, and suggest that the GOP is the morally right party, and the Democarts are the spawn of the devil (not in those words, of course).
I think people take great comfort in religion, and some folks take greater comfort in knowing the answer to all their questions is, simply, God. They've stopped thinking for themselves....stopped questioning why...because the answer, for them, is always the same...because God willed it.
*sigh* As a Pagan and as a Lesbian, I think I'm going to be an endangered species.
You know...I had a very long reply giving my take on why Americans tend to be so blind...but....it's exactly that, my take.
One thing to note? If I recall .... in the early 90's, the Christian Coalition (Christian Right) became a player in the political arena.
Churches and Church leaders slid quietly into the GOP's back pocket, and the Christian Coalition started a grass roots push to get folks into office on all levels.
This nation's always had a significant religious element to it, but that element stayed out of the government, for the most part. At times of war, or tragedy, presidents might say something like "God Bless America," or some such, but, overall, the separation of Church and State was maintained.
I think the Christian Coalition would like to see the Separation of Church and state go buh bye. I think they've got church leaders in their back pocket, and preach to their congregations, and suggest that the GOP is the morally right party, and the Democarts are the spawn of the devil (not in those words, of course).
I think people take great comfort in religion, and some folks take greater comfort in knowing the answer to all their questions is, simply, God. They've stopped thinking for themselves....stopped questioning why...because the answer, for them, is always the same...because God willed it.
*sigh* As a Pagan and as a Lesbian, I think I'm going to be an endangered species.
Solitude sometimes speaks to you, and you should listen.
enthusiast
233 posts
233 posts
Posted:
You have to understand that the church... is people. Not a building. The people can do whatever they want, for whatever cause. The pagans can do the same thing, it is all just a matter of organisation.
There is nothing wrong with believe that it is God's will. However if you truly wish that things were not that way, you should work on your own Pagan Coalition.
<----- Odd, that little gremlin symbolises all that is life... life is one big juggle
You have to understand that the church... is people. Not a building. The people can do whatever they want, for whatever cause. The pagans can do the same thing, it is all just a matter of organisation.
There is nothing wrong with believe that it is God's will. However if you truly wish that things were not that way, you should work on your own Pagan Coalition.
<----- Odd, that little gremlin symbolises all that is life... life is one big juggle GOLD Member
Mand's Girl....and The Not So Shy One
2,723 posts
Location: Calgary, Alberta Canada
Mand's Girl....and The Not So Shy One
2,723 posts
Location: Calgary, Alberta Canada
Posted:
You missed the point...I could care less if people believe in God or the Great Hairy Fly. Separation of Church and state is something I firmly believe in.
The point is that a religious organization has influence on a political party, and thus on public policy.
I don't want Religion dictated to me by government..
Quote:
You have to understand that the church... is people. Not a building. The people can do whatever they want, for whatever cause. The pagans can do the same thing, it is all just a matter of organisation.
There is nothing wrong with believe that it is God's will. However if you truly wish that things were not that way, you should work on your own Pagan Coalition.
You missed the point...I could care less if people believe in God or the Great Hairy Fly. Separation of Church and state is something I firmly believe in.
The point is that a religious organization has influence on a political party, and thus on public policy.
I don't want Religion dictated to me by government..
Solitude sometimes speaks to you, and you should listen.
NYC
9,232 posts
Location: NYC, NY, USA
9,232 posts
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Posted:
The guys that flew the planes into my towers thought it was God's Will too.
Quote:
You have to understand that the church... is people. Not a building. The people can do whatever they want, for whatever cause. There is nothing wrong with believe that it is God's will.
The guys that flew the planes into my towers thought it was God's Will too.
Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]
enthusiast
233 posts
233 posts
Posted:
True, remember the Branch Dividian Compound in Waco? They thought they following Jesus! Remember those folks that drank the poisoned kool-aid because they thought Jesus was flying behind a comet or something like that...
What's your point?
We arnt talking about terrorist actions or brainwashed people committing mass scuicide. We are talking about people who are part of a religion who are opperating within the constitution to make the country better... in their opinoin.
Here is a question that I pose to you (being anyone)... Would you have a problem with a group of wiccans trying to influance politicians? Or if that question is too bold, would you have a problem with any religion other than christianity trying to influance politicians?
Edit
Just because a religoin has influence in the government, it doesnt mean that you are going to be dicated religoin by the government.
I think you missed my point as well... try not to think of it as a religion, think of it as like minded individuals who wish to influence policy. Just like the NAACP.
EDITED_BY: Burzaruka (1083966003)
True, remember the Branch Dividian Compound in Waco? They thought they following Jesus! Remember those folks that drank the poisoned kool-aid because they thought Jesus was flying behind a comet or something like that...
What's your point?
We arnt talking about terrorist actions or brainwashed people committing mass scuicide. We are talking about people who are part of a religion who are opperating within the constitution to make the country better... in their opinoin.
Here is a question that I pose to you (being anyone)... Would you have a problem with a group of wiccans trying to influance politicians? Or if that question is too bold, would you have a problem with any religion other than christianity trying to influance politicians?
Edit
Just because a religoin has influence in the government, it doesnt mean that you are going to be dicated religoin by the government.
I think you missed my point as well... try not to think of it as a religion, think of it as like minded individuals who wish to influence policy. Just like the NAACP.
EDITED_BY: Burzaruka (1083966003)
GOLD Member
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Posted:
Post deleted by L i g h t n i n g
Post deleted by L i g h t n i n g
-Mike
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella
A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura
GOLD Member
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Posted:
Even when it means harming others?
Tell me, morally, what is the difference between denying gay people medical care (which the "Christian" Right is trying to do in Michigan right now) and mandating that women must cover their heads, or banning Jews from holding certain jobs, or segregating schools on the basis of race?
By and large, the most ghastly atrocities committed throughout history have almost uniformly been justified at some point by "God's Will." "God's Will" is probably one of the leading causes of death and injury throughout the history of human civilization.
So no, I firmly believe that religion is not infallable and that, contrary to ensuring morality, it actually may be used to encourage the most evil, ghastly, and vile human behaviors that have ever been recorded, from the Crusades to the Holocaust, to Sept. 11.
It is precisely because religion can be perverted to these grotesque ends that I firmly believe that it belongs out of our laws and out of our government. The United States Constitution is a truly remarkable document. Other than being the first of its kind in that it established a completely new democracy from nothing, it is elegant, concise, clear, and the authors are known. It may be altered as societal mores change, and the Founding Fathers had the amazing foresight to see that this would happen. The brilliant and profoundly progressive thinking that went into this magnificent work is a phenomenon that is, unfortunately, seen all too rarely today. It is truly fortuitous that such amazing men as the Founding Fathers found themselves in one place at one time with this mission. It makes me wonder if the Constitution might not be an "Inspired" document, sometimes. But more important than the wonders of the Constitution is its role: It, and not the Bible, is the law of the United States of America.
Lately, I have seen the Church (the people, not the building) trying to subvert these important parts of this document, penned by the same men who penned its body.
This one has been under attack for quite some time now:
This one went out the window with the "War on Drugs." And now, the "War on Terrorism."
Bush, with full backing of many Conservative "Christian" leaders, attacked these on 9/11:
Oh...and one more. One the "Church" (the people, not the building) has been trying to flout lately, and that I particularly, as a gay man, have been feeling pretty strongly:
EDITED_BY: L i g h t n i n g (1083967565)
Quote:
There is nothing wrong with believe that it is God's will. However if you truly wish that things were not that way, you should work on your own.
Even when it means harming others?
Tell me, morally, what is the difference between denying gay people medical care (which the "Christian" Right is trying to do in Michigan right now) and mandating that women must cover their heads, or banning Jews from holding certain jobs, or segregating schools on the basis of race?
By and large, the most ghastly atrocities committed throughout history have almost uniformly been justified at some point by "God's Will." "God's Will" is probably one of the leading causes of death and injury throughout the history of human civilization.
So no, I firmly believe that religion is not infallable and that, contrary to ensuring morality, it actually may be used to encourage the most evil, ghastly, and vile human behaviors that have ever been recorded, from the Crusades to the Holocaust, to Sept. 11.
It is precisely because religion can be perverted to these grotesque ends that I firmly believe that it belongs out of our laws and out of our government. The United States Constitution is a truly remarkable document. Other than being the first of its kind in that it established a completely new democracy from nothing, it is elegant, concise, clear, and the authors are known. It may be altered as societal mores change, and the Founding Fathers had the amazing foresight to see that this would happen. The brilliant and profoundly progressive thinking that went into this magnificent work is a phenomenon that is, unfortunately, seen all too rarely today. It is truly fortuitous that such amazing men as the Founding Fathers found themselves in one place at one time with this mission. It makes me wonder if the Constitution might not be an "Inspired" document, sometimes. But more important than the wonders of the Constitution is its role: It, and not the Bible, is the law of the United States of America.
Lately, I have seen the Church (the people, not the building) trying to subvert these important parts of this document, penned by the same men who penned its body.
This one has been under attack for quite some time now:
Quote:
Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
This one went out the window with the "War on Drugs." And now, the "War on Terrorism."
Quote:
Amendment IV
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
Bush, with full backing of many Conservative "Christian" leaders, attacked these on 9/11:
Quote:
Amendment V
No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.
Quote:
Amendment VI
In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the state and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the assistance of counsel for his defense.
Quote:
Amendment VIII
Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.
Oh...and one more. One the "Church" (the people, not the building) has been trying to flout lately, and that I particularly, as a gay man, have been feeling pretty strongly:
Quote:
Amendment XIV
Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
EDITED_BY: L i g h t n i n g (1083967565)
-Mike
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella
A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura
enthusiast
233 posts
233 posts
Posted:
I am sorry Lightning, but I am not an answer guide. I gave an opinion, lets not attack me over your discrepincies with religion or gay people. I am not to blame for your problems.
I gave an opinion, I thought that was allowed, I guess I should reread the TOS.
However to answer your first question, believing something is gods will, is not an excuse for commiting a crime. This again is my opinion, I neither have to back it up or prove it right to satisfy another.
I am sorry Lightning, but I am not an answer guide. I gave an opinion, lets not attack me over your discrepincies with religion or gay people. I am not to blame for your problems.
I gave an opinion, I thought that was allowed, I guess I should reread the TOS.
However to answer your first question, believing something is gods will, is not an excuse for commiting a crime. This again is my opinion, I neither have to back it up or prove it right to satisfy another.
I don't want a title.
940 posts
940 posts
Posted:
I just want to get the I bet you'll vote THIS time, hippy t-shirt. Our job, Lightning and other Americans, is to convince our beloved hippies to actually vote this time around.
I just want to get the I bet you'll vote THIS time, hippy t-shirt. Our job, Lightning and other Americans, is to convince our beloved hippies to actually vote this time around.
E pluribus unum, baby.
enthusiast
233 posts
233 posts
Posted:
I kinda like this one For the Democrats
I kinda like this one For the Democrats
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