Forums > Social Discussion > "Firebreather's Lung" or ARDS

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Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13920
Posted:Article moved to here
EDITED_BY: Malcolm (1194320079)


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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onewheeldave
Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield
Member Since: 28th Aug 2002
Total posts: 3252
Posted:So, how does vomit end up being inhaled?

I know this can happen with people who are very drunk, but presumably, this wouldn't be the case in this situation, as the person was fire-breathing.

Is it common for people to end up in hospital due to inhaling their own vomit?


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13920
Posted: Written by :onewheeldave


So, how does vomit end up being inhaled?

I know this can happen with people who are very drunk, but presumably, this wouldn't be the case in this situation, as the person was fire-breathing.

Is it common for people to end up in hospital due to inhaling their own vomit?



Vomit is inhaled when you vomit and, for whatever reason, the reflexive systems for protecting the airway, which are usually quite good, fail. Severe coughing or respiratory distress can cause this.

I wouldn't say that it's "common" but it's certainly not wildly uncommon.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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MikeIcon
MikeIcon

Pooh-Bah
Location: Philadelphia, PA - USA
Member Since: 27th Mar 2003
Total posts: 2109
Posted:So what is the difference between ARDS and a mild case of chemically induced pneumonia?

There was one time where I must have inhaled a tiny bit of fuel and got a slight case of pneumonia. For the next couple of days I had a sharp pain in my chest up near my collar bone when taking deep breaths. It wasn't severe, just noticiable. I did not go to the hospital or treat it in any way. Just waited till it went away.

Recently I got a chest X-ray done and it showed no signs of distress (despite the fact that I've been a heavy smoker since I was 13 and a fire performer/eater/breather for the past few years).


Let's turn those old bridges we crossed into ashes.
We'll blaze a new trail,
and torch the rough patches.

-Me

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natasqi
natasqi

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Location: Perth
Member Since: 4th Jul 2007
Total posts: 489
Posted: Written by :ICoN


So what is the difference between ARDS and a mild case of chemically induced pneumonia?




ARDS is when you get an insult to your lung, which causes inflammation. So the good cells in your blood trample along to the lung to help clean everything up, but when there are too many, they actually cause damage. There are so many helping cells, the red blood cells can't get to the oxygen. So you become hypoxic.
And lack of oxygen damages other organs.
And the blood vessels in the lungs can become leaky, causing pulmonary oedema, which makes oxygen transfer even worse...
So basically, it's like drowning from the inside...

Aspiration pneumonia (when you get stomach contents in your lungs) is not itself pneumonia... pneumonia has to be an infection. But having the stomach contents in your lungs makes it really really likely that you will get an infection.
So then, bacteria some to visit, and then the helping cells come to eat the bacteria.. and again the lung blood vessels get full of bacteria and helping cells, and the lung can't transfer oxygen correctly.

Or that is how I understand it, Doc, feel free to rip me to shreads :P

and ARDS can be caused by pneumonia, or by aspiration... to make things difficult. (because these things might be a big enough injury to make the capillaries leaky)

Oh, and ARDS can also cause pneumonia.. :P
(because your lungs are suddenly this really nice moist warm place to be, and the secretions aren't being cleared)


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Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13920
Posted:There's no clear-cut difference between aspiration pneumonitis and ARDS. ARDS is a more severe situation. Also, aspiration pneumonia classically refers to aspiration of mouth flora, which causes an infection.

It's sort of a subtle semantic difference.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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0ni
0ni

member
Location: Connecticut
Member Since: 3rd May 2008
Total posts: 59
Posted: Written by :Doc Lightning


It's sort of a subtle semantic difference.



that is definitely one of the sexiest lines i have ever heard /swoon
wonderful meter and slight alliteration

it's got some strange aesthetic appeal, kind of like how Poe felt about "cellar door"

doc, i think you have a fangirl in me xD

now i almost wish i were a gay man ;o

i know this post is completely off topic, but that one line just set my heart all aflutter and put a flush in my cheeks ;3 so i had to share


DEAD FREEDOM
if you've forgotten how to scream, then scream here and live here

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Pele
Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA
Member Since: 15th Dec 2000
Total posts: 6193
Posted: Written by :natasqi


So basically, it's like drowning from the inside...





I would like to amend this if I may?

It's not "like", you *are* drowning from the inside, and it feels like it. My lungs filled with more fluid than could be handled, so I had drainage tubes entering through my back and into my lung to keep me from drowning. Once every few hours a nurse or resp therp would come in and stick a vaccuum down my traech and suction the liquid out of my lungs because the tubes couldn't drain it fast enough.
The moisture in the oxygen was to keep it from solidifying, because then I wouldn't have been drowning, I would have had cement blocks in my lungs. Evidentally it's easier to keep a person from drowning in their own bodily fluids than it is to break cement blocks out.
That how my resp. therapist described it at least.


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

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Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13920
Posted: Written by :Pele


It's not "like", you *are* drowning from the inside, and it feels like it.



And physiologically, it behaves like it.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Woopdoom
Woopdoom

Member
Location: sydney
Member Since: 25th Jan 2008
Total posts: 2
Posted:hi, this is pretty random but, anyway, i was watching a video on facebook from burn concept crew, and their fire breathing is bloody insane, i was wondering if anyone else has seen their stuff and if so could tell me what kind of fuel they are using, because it can not be kerosine
if you want to see it add me on facebook and ask me to send it to you, dontaskquestionsplz@hotmail.com


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natasqi
natasqi

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Location: Perth
Member Since: 4th Jul 2007
Total posts: 489
Posted:Burn concept crew is on facebook... Ask them there smile

David/Daniel Redl I think it is..


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0ni
0ni

member
Location: Connecticut
Member Since: 3rd May 2008
Total posts: 59
Posted:facebook is such a ridiculous place, as they store all of your information that you have ever input, for an indefinite period of time, unless you delete every detail meticulously by hand, suspend your profile, and request them to delete it (which they will only do if you hand-remove every bit of information)
addresses, credit card numbers, who you're friends with, what type of networks you are in, work and education history, their terms of use allows them to use all of your information however they please. i don't think it's fair to refer someone there without reminding them to read ALL of the terms of use and privacy policy. MOST networking sites on the internet are not so bad...but facebook is particularly sharky.


DEAD FREEDOM
if you've forgotten how to scream, then scream here and live here

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Ammu
stranger

Member Since: 28th Mar 2008
Total posts: 10
Posted:My brother didn't really 'inhaled' his own vomit as far as I understand. It sort of 'leaked' into his lungs.

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Pele
Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA
Member Since: 15th Dec 2000
Total posts: 6193
Posted:So what your brother is going through is more vomit induced than fuel in the lungs?
Which, as Doc mentioned, can be worse.
But the fuel he swallowed made him vomit, or did he induce?
That's what I'm not clear on.


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

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Birgit
Birgit

had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
Location: Edinburgh
Member Since: 27th Jan 2005
Total posts: 4145
Posted:0ni, as far as I can tell natasqi was only referring someone to facebook who'd asked about a video they'd already seen there?

"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)

Owner of Dragosani's left half

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natasqi
natasqi

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Location: Perth
Member Since: 4th Jul 2007
Total posts: 489
Posted:and the fact he already saw a video on facebook... So he's obviously already there...

Why would someone put their credit card on facebook??

eek

Yeah.. I put pseudonyms up on those kind of sites... I don't want future employers googling me.


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Birgit
Birgit

had her carpal tunnel surgery already thanks v much
Location: Edinburgh
Member Since: 27th Jan 2005
Total posts: 4145
Posted:People who aren't my friends can only see my picture (which is usually either very harmless or unrecognisable), and you can't get me there from google. To get to my credit card details, you have to send me a flower and three special hugs wink

"vices are like genitals - most are ugly to behold, and yet we find that our own are dear to us."
(G.W. Dahlquist)

Owner of Dragosani's left half

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0ni
0ni

member
Location: Connecticut
Member Since: 3rd May 2008
Total posts: 59
Posted:i don't mean other people, i mean the "facebook crew" who store your info indefinitely.

both of them referred people there, not just natasqi (^-^)b


DEAD FREEDOM
if you've forgotten how to scream, then scream here and live here

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MikeIcon
MikeIcon

Pooh-Bah
Location: Philadelphia, PA - USA
Member Since: 27th Mar 2003
Total posts: 2109
Posted:I've talked to BCC about what they use. I forget exactly what they said but its basically paraffin.

Let's turn those old bridges we crossed into ashes.
We'll blaze a new trail,
and torch the rough patches.

-Me

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Pele
Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA
Member Since: 15th Dec 2000
Total posts: 6193
Posted: Written by :ICoN


I've talked to BCC about what they use. I forget exactly what they said but its basically paraffin.



Yeeee-up

More can be done with this fuel than the alternatives.

It's seriously all in the technique. I know that, in general, people think fire breathing is a "this is how you do it" 5 minute to learn and you are done type thing but there are loads of techniques to master to get different effects.

It's not the fuel.

Now, back on topic to the ARDS discussion, yes?


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

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MikeIcon
MikeIcon

Pooh-Bah
Location: Philadelphia, PA - USA
Member Since: 27th Mar 2003
Total posts: 2109
Posted:I'm curious as to the effects of actually burning your lungs. What would the consequences be if I were to actually inhale flames?



I ask because while most people believe fire breathing to be the most dangerous fire art, I am of the opinion that fire eating is more dangerous (for many reasons).


Let's turn those old bridges we crossed into ashes.
We'll blaze a new trail,
and torch the rough patches.

-Me

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Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13920
Posted: Written by :ICoN


I'm curious as to the effects of actually burning your lungs. What would the consequences be if I were to actually inhale flames?



On the lungs, not many. There might be some pneumonia. However, the trachea and oropharynx (throat) would take most of the brunt. And that could be life and airway-threatening, but it wouldn't cause the diffuse organ damage that ARDS does.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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onewheeldave
Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield
Member Since: 28th Aug 2002
Total posts: 3252
Posted: Written by :ICoN




I ask because while most people believe fire breathing to be the most dangerous fire art, I am of the opinion that fire eating is more dangerous (for many reasons).



What reasons?


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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MikeIcon
MikeIcon

Pooh-Bah
Location: Philadelphia, PA - USA
Member Since: 27th Mar 2003
Total posts: 2109
Posted:First off, I generally breathe fire with Ultra Pure Lamp Oil and eat fire with White Gas.



To start, white gas is overall more dangerous than lamp oil. It is more explosive, burns hotter, is more toxic, and easily transfers flames onto clothes or other objects.



Lamp Oil isn't too toxic unless injested in quantity and/or introduced into the lungs. Lamp Oil does not cause cancer in it's unburned form. White gas IS toxic in smaller quantities and can cause cancer in unburnt form.



Putting FIRE in your mouth is just far worse for you than putting oil in your mouth. Fire will cause your gums to recede, teeth to cook/crack/crumble, and may cause oral/facial burns if done incorrectly. Whenever you put a burning torch into your mouth, you are coating your mouth with burnt hydrocarbons which increases the risk of cancer in your mouth and all along your digestive system. Also, you run the risk of inhaling straight flames. Lamp oil isn't great for your mouth/system but overall is less caustic. Contrary to popular belief, breathing fire with lamp oil will never cause a 'blowback' in which fire enters your mouth and makes your face explode. You do run the risk of facial (and full body) burns when breathing fire as fuel does tend to soak into clothes and skin over time.



I'm sure there is some stuff I'm leaving out cuz I'm in a rush, but basically, that's my belief. Fire in mouth is worse than oil in mouth for many reasons.



Really, both of these things can cause instantaneous death or serious injury. They are both highly dangerous. I just feel there are more negative health effects from eating than breathing... At least these days. Perhaps things were different in the old carny days when Kerosene or diesel was the preferred breathing fuel.


Let's turn those old bridges we crossed into ashes.
We'll blaze a new trail,
and torch the rough patches.

-Me

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onewheeldave
Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield
Member Since: 28th Aug 2002
Total posts: 3252
Posted:Some of that is, as you say, down to fuel choice.

Many people fire eat with paraffin and fire breathe with parafin, in which case, I'd say that fire breathing is considerably more dangerous than fire eating, as

1. when it comes to short-term risk, we never here of fire-eating incidents ending in hospitalisation, whereas fire-breathers ending up in hospital are common
2. For long-term issues, far more fuel is absorbed from fire-breathing than in fire-eating- assuming that the same fuel is used in both, harm will be greater in fire-breathing

You're right about tooth damage with fire-eating- there was a thread on here about several old-timers who'd wrecked their teeth through fire-eating.

--------------------

Out of interest, has anyone heard of cases where someone has died, or spent a long time in hospital, through fire-eating?


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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Pele
Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA
Member Since: 15th Dec 2000
Total posts: 6193
Posted: Written by :ICoN



Contrary to popular belief, breathing fire with lamp oil will never cause a 'blowback' in which fire enters your mouth and makes your face explode.





It can do a blowback. Not explosive but it will set you alight.

I've known 3 people it's happened to, where the flame did trail the aspiration back. All three suffered severe facial burns. You are making really strong absolute statements here Icon.



Also, just because it isn't carcinogenic on paper does not mean it will not cause damage. It is labelled as a poison for a reason, and we are putting that poison in our mouths, and as such introducing it to our blood streams. There is a health hazard rating on it for a reason. Saying it is not carcinogenic is addressing only small part of the health issue. I don't put unlit fire torches in my mouth, and so the level of carcinogenics of uncombusted white gas is of lesser importance, but it is not one I discount.



If the wind shifts from fire eating, I may get burned but I'll not be hospitalized.

I was taught a stunt where you "inhale" a flame to your nose from fire eating (not a great description done purposefully). I did it, and walked away with a heat burn, which I knew I was going to get ahead of time.

People don't tend to walk away easily from an inhale on fire breathing.



Also, you mention burns. I honestly have had worse burns from coffee or food (hot cheese omg!) than from fire eating in the 10+ years I've been doing it.



However, you have given me an idea for a friend of mine to do a swab test on my mouth and throat after I am done to see the level of hydrocarbons vs. chemicals from fire breathing left behing. Hmmmm...thank you.



The immediate hazards are recoverable from fire eating. From fire breathing, they are not always.

Most of what you have offered up are "suspected" dangers of fire eating, whereas the level of danger associated with fire breathing has been proven time and time again with the amount of accident reports we get on an annual basis.



It is with that, that I respectfully and completely disagree with you.



OWD, Mephisto is a very good friend of mine. I am also friends with many, many of the old timers in the US sideshow community, some of whom have been fire eating 50+ years. I believe Meph is on nearly 30 years himself.



His teeth are fairly well gone (I believe I reprinted information from him in the thread you mentioned).

His gums are in horrible shape...from fire breathing fuels, not from fire eating (that's how he lost his teeth, from weakened enamel).



And none of them have ever been hospitalized for fire eating.

Several have been ill and/or hospitalized for fire breathing.

Slim Price, a sideshow legend and one of my mentors, died a couple years ago of cancer which his doctors for years attributed partially to fire breathing fuels building up in his system, especially because he had such damage to his liver but was never a drinker. He also had developed chronic ulcers, had dentures and bad gums as well. He took alot of pride in his fire eating/breathing, as does Mephisto, but both were also very realistic and honest all along about the damage it has done to them.

Meph, in fact, chronicled alot of it for awhile on the Pro Fire Eater group he runs.



If the hydrocarbons of fire eating were such a huge issue, I would think these men would have far more instances of cancer to the mouth, throat, etc. But they do not. Not a single one of them.

More than a few have had/have ulcers and liver cancer.



Perhaps the danger of a burn from fire eating is immediate but any of the old timers will tell you that fire breathing is by far more destructive to the body, and they are living the reprocussions.



As an additional point of reference, the more you do it, the worse the risks are and the nature of the performances these guys did made it necessary for them to be fire eating/breathing sometimes 20x a day or more eek . Also, depending on the quality of show, some of them used fuels we would not concider today for fire breathing (the oldest of which says he used leaded gasolene when he started at 14, some 76 years ago eek ) I realize that makes their outcomes more extreme, but not invalid to this discussion I feel.



All fire arts, no matter what they are, are dangerous and will take a toll on the body in long term effects (smoke inhalation from spinning alone, oi!). Even if a person never gets injured, they are not safe.

I think that is the most important thing to remember.



*edit for final statement.

EDITED_BY: Pele (1211124612)


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

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natasqi
natasqi

addict
Location: Perth
Member Since: 4th Jul 2007
Total posts: 489
Posted:For people wanting to know about the dangers of fire-eating, there are lots of articles that you can find just googling fire-eating into scholar.

I'll try to get time later to give people the low down... for now, If you're really interested, try this

http://scholar.google.com.au/scholar?q=f...sa=N&tab=ws


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onewheeldave
Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield
Member Since: 28th Aug 2002
Total posts: 3252
Posted:Maybe googling 'fire-eater' is not advisable, because, though most of us here can distinguish between the terms 'fire-eating' and 'fire-breathing', much of the rest of the world cannot smile



(that includes the general public and some of the medical profession).



Just recently I had 'Nightwatch' (UK emergency services docu thing) on and they had the case of a 'fire-eater' whose act had gone wrong and ended up in casuality.



It was obvious to me, from the description of what had happened, that this was not a fire-eater- he was a fire-breather.



So, articles on 'Fire Eater's Pneumonia: Radiographic and CT Findings.' for example, are not necessarily anything to do with fire-eating, but could well be about fire-breathing.



------------



I remember a time when I was busking with fire juggling in town, got approached by a promoter who wanted my number for potential gigs.



When he called, he continually referred to me as a 'fire-breather', despite the fact that I was obvously a fire-juggler.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

Delete

Pele
Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA
Member Since: 15th Dec 2000
Total posts: 6193
Posted: Written by :onewheeldave


So, articles on 'Fire Eater's Pneumonia: Radiographic and CT Findings.' for example, are not necessarily anything to do with fire-eating, but could well be about fire-breathing.





You are so right.

Kind of like the articles of the "fire breather" at the resort where the fire got out of control and the young girl in the audience was injured/died (can't recall and too lazy to look it up right now). He was continually referred to as a fire eater/breather in the articles and yet he was actually part of the staff who put a line of alcohol on the floor and lit it up.

Happens all to often really, you big, bad fire eater you! wink


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

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Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13920
Posted: Written by :onewheeldave


Maybe googling 'fire-eater' is not advisable, because, though most of us here can distinguish between the terms 'fire-eating' and 'fire-breathing', much of the rest of the world cannot smile

(that includes the general public and some of the medical profession).

Just recently I had 'Nightwatch' (UK emergency services docu thing) on and they had the case of a 'fire-eater' whose act had gone wrong and ended up in casuality.

It was obvious to me, from the description of what had happened, that this was not a fire-eater- he was a fire-breather.



Exactly.

Let's put it this way, I have never seen or heard of a fire-eating injury that caused more than cosmetic damage or superficial burns.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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natasqi
natasqi

addict
Location: Perth
Member Since: 4th Jul 2007
Total posts: 489
Posted: Written by :onewheeldave


though most of us here can distinguish between the terms 'fire-eating' and 'fire-breathing', much of the rest of the world cannot smile




Oh.. didn't realise that there was this problem... How annoying!


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