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Forums > Social Discussion > "Firebreather's Lung" or ARDS

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Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13919
Posted:Article moved to here
EDITED_BY: Malcolm (1194320079)


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura


onewheeldave
Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield
Member Since: 28th Aug 2002
Total posts: 3252
Posted: Written by: Stout


OWD...Do you figure it's firebreathers who were firebreathers first and trying to associate themselves with the spinning art / I suppose, but in my experience it's been spinners who want to "up their game", so to speak.







Personally, I wouldn't say spinners getting into firebreathing would be 'upping their game' smile

Decent spinning takes a lot of time and practice to be skillful, whereas, apart from a small minority of true professionals, most fire-breathing is a cheap stunt that requires a minimum of skill and that can be (and all too often is), 'learnt' in one session.

It would be nice if some of those fire-breathers who can fire-breath and nothing else, applied themselves to learning spinning or juggling- then the expression 'upping their game' might be appropriate.

Of course there are people who both fire-breath and spin, many of whom naturally have an interest in fire-breathing not being critisised to the extent that it starts to be seen in a negative light.

I think it's fair to say that this was even more so a few years back (that spinners would also fire-breath).

And, thinking about that, maybe part of the problem is the performance side of things, cos fire-breathing can be seen as a very useful bit of spectacle in a situation where you're performing for the public.

So, whereas with spinning/staff/poi- if you're truly into it, you'll be practicing it regardless of whether or not you're a performer (or planning to be one).

And many spinners who are into fire-spinning, would continue to do it even if they're never intending to perform.

As an extreme thought experiment, imagine if you wake up in some science fiction scenario where everyone else has gone and you're the only human being left on the planet.

Will you continue to juggle/spin- if so, then you know that you're genuinely into spinning/juggling in a very pure way.

Would most fire-breathers in that situation continue to fire-breath?

I doubt it.

And, for the minority who would, I'd have to admit that, yes, they are genuinely into it purely for the love of it and they are probably worthy of being referred to as 'fire-artists'.

But, from what I've seen, they are a small minority- most fire-breathers seem to be in it either cos it pulls in some cash for gigs, or it's a cheap way to impress drunken girls at parties, or, they're just too lazy to learn something which requires genuine skill/committment, or, they're just plain confused, having been impressed by some other fire-breather at one of the aforementioned drunken parties.

Hopefully none of that will cause offence to that minority who are true professional fire-breathers- I hope I have made the distinction clear. It's just unfortunate that, over the years, I've seen, and heard of, some truly shoddy behaviour from 'fire-breathers' who don't deserve to be referred to as artists or professionals.

In fact,if you think about it, where true professional fire-breathers are concerned, it's probably in their own best interests that we do face up to the fact that there are some real idiots out there who've learnt to fire-breath (badly) and have deluded themselves into thinking that there meagre skill entitles them to perform/call themselves professionals/'teach' vulnerable newbies.



Perhaps a danger here is that I'm just plain prejudiced against fire-breathers?

Most of my personal experience of fire-breathers has been with the 'idiot' end of the scale- I've never actually met a real professional or someone who truly loves fire-breathing as an art and develops it as such.

And, the more I distance myself from fire-breathing, I guess the less likely it is that I am going to bump into someone who does do it 'properly'.

The few people I know who did fire breath and who I did respect as doing so intelligently, basically did it for a while and then stopped.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!


FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:Thanks for your that, Stout - ubblol I nearly choked on my Chai. The most entertaining post I have read in a long time. And thanks for the clarification, Dave smile

To keep this on track:

 Written by: Stout


One can't deny the relationship between poi and fire, nor deny the relationship between any of the toys we discuss here and fire either.

(...)Realistically we can't deny the connection between HoP and fire breathing.

(...) If people are wanting to try this, then they're going to and I see no harm in giving out the correct, factual information about this activity along with the warning about how dangerous it is.




It's true, spinning and fire (realistically spoken) are strongly connected, hence - as a community - we shoot our own leg, if we'd actively encourage ppl to breathe fire (which is not the case). I can't find too much connection between HoP and firebreathing at present and am really happy about it.

Health warnings alone just don't work on young, enthusiastic and healthy individuals, who think life never ends and their strength never ceases. As AmaraO suggests: If someone approaches the community about information on firebreathing, we should supply those regarding the dangers involved and direct him to a professional. It should be consensus to actively discourage him. Did I already mention that information IMHO does not equal education? umm

A sloppy remark that he knows about the dangers involved is all it needs to open up another thread on the same (disliked) topic and receive what he wants? We should display more backbone... I didn't mean to offend anyone, least Pele, to the contrary I am happy with the way Malcolm set this site up and the way it's operated.

I don't really mourn firebreathers (as such). A decline in active firebreathers over the past years is one of the things I really enjoy as they were only sucking heavily on my fuel supply to perform a cheap and yucky act and actively endangered my health and wellbeing... in short:

(dsclmr: "in their function") I regard firebreathers the SUV's of the fire-scene...


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink


ferrous
ferrous

member
Location: brisbane, queensland
Member Since: 4th Jan 2008
Total posts: 55
Posted:two people here said that they rarely see fire breathers around at fire spinning events anymore.

i've actively attended two fire spinning events in my whole life (at woodford outside the circadia tent & then at the recent full moon event at west end), both within the last four weeks, & i'm pretty certain there was fire breathing at both.

there was definitely fire breathing at west end (although i noted that they did move away from the main area before doing it). the reason i'm not so sure about the woodford one is because i had my little boy with me at that one & my attention was firmly on making sure nothing hot was getting too close to him.


when i grow up, i want to be a circus freak.


The Misguided Oracle
The Misguided Oracle

the floor is a sea of tigers...
Location: Brisvegas
Member Since: 31st Aug 2005
Total posts: 404
Posted:i'm certain there wouldn't have been fire breathing outside of circadia

"My body is a well tuned machine... It just needs a competent driver." - ?


onewheeldave
Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield
Member Since: 28th Aug 2002
Total posts: 3252
Posted: Written by: FireTom



(dsclmr: "in their function") I regard firebreathers the SUV's of the fire-scene...





ubblol



That's one the best, consise-summings-up, I've ever seen.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!


Stout
Stout

Pooh-Bah
Location: Canada
Member Since: 12th May 2004
Total posts: 1872
Posted:OWD...by upping their game, I was speaking from an already spinning fire performer looking to all a little more drama to their act perspective. Really, audiences love it, especially at the opening of an act when they get exposed to the big wooooosh and blast of heat that instantly dispels any of those strange myths that we hear about on here once every blue moon about spinners using "real fire"

Staff burnoffs give the same effect but come with their own limitations, most notably, your distance from your audience. Although we have standards about stage size and overhead environments, sometimes things don't work out exactly as planned. Example, our last Halloween show, the stage area was so small we had to pretty much improv our existing routines in order to not only fit all of us on the stage, but ensure a safe distance form the audience which was composed, mainly, of parents holding onto their children.

Safety is paramount, and there's always that "trust" issue that lay people have with fire spinners, that trust we're all familiar with in the form of people walking right up to you mid-burn and striking up a conversation.

I figure someone would have a pretty tough time putting together an act if breathing was their only "skill"

Hey..once, last year this guy showed up at one of our local meets with a can of hairspray and a lighter...that was his "act"

Tom> I agree, the safety/health warnings won't have much of an effect on the young and immortal. A better tack might be to brush off breathing as being cheesy, in the way lying down on your back and doing the butterfly is cheesy. ( we actually do that, well, I don't but the girls do, audiences love it )



Pele
Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA
Member Since: 15th Dec 2000
Total posts: 6193
Posted: Written by: onewheeleddave



Where fire-breathing is concerned- historically, there's always been a keeness amongst many fire-breathers to be seen as closely connected with the arts of spinning (poi/staff etc).







Okay, *very* quick fire breathing history lesson shall we?



In Ancient Greece soldiers were known to toughen themselves and prove themselves through use of fire, including expelling it from their mouths. This was actually a part of the Greek Epic Antigone.

There has been documentation dating back to 150 BC a Syrian named Eunus, a priest claimed he spoke with gods using fire mystically forming from his lips.

It's the earliest fire breathing we know of.



From there you can find it in Hindu practices, where it was a practice of the Fakir (ie: faker) along with numerous other performance arts practiced today.



The concept of Circus as we know it came about later through a blending of the Greek and the Asian concepts, of which neither used fire breathing as an act. Fire breathing did not make a strong showing in circus until much later, in the sideshow heyday in the late 1800's through the early 1900's before it took it's turn into the sideshow tent. It has had a strong showing in circus', other than in parades, since. It is really rare and hard to find a circus where someone just stands there and breathes fire.



Now to address the statement of their being less firebreathers than ever. That is a huge laugh. There are more than ever and more seeking to learn everyday. Because you don't see them does not mean they do not exist. The Melbourne Fire Breathers Club had over 300 members before the organizers got too busy to keep it organized. The professional fire eaters/breathers group I am part of gets over 50 requests a week for membership (we are by invitation only after reviewing applications), many of which we turn down.

And most of our members do not have the slightest notion how to do poi, some have never heard of it. They are fully seperate and most fire breathers that I know do not want any part of the fire spinners culture and view it in a manner similar to many of the ney saying jugglers actually.



As part of our questionaire we ask where people were referred to fire breathing/eating, and most say television/movies. The next most popular answer is street festivals and faires.



I am going to very much have to disagree with the statements that it wouldn't be so popular without spinning or circus and that it's on a decline.



In the past year alone I can tell you that I've seen a HUGE amount of people who *think* they can do fire breathing (as well as other fire arts) compared to last year. And it's sad, because I'm not kiddin when I say they "think".

EDITED_BY: Pele (1202068766)


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK


newgabe
newgabe

what goes around comes around. unless you're into stalls.
Location: Bali
Member Since: 3rd Mar 2005
Total posts: 4030
Posted: Written by: The Misguided Oracle


I'm certain there wouldn't have been fire breathing outside of circadia



No, certainly not from any of Circadia crew or the people who were invited into Fire Cabaret.


.....Can't juggle balls but I sure as hell can juggle details....


Pele
Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA
Member Since: 15th Dec 2000
Total posts: 6193
Posted: Written by: FireTom


And to explain my (meanwhile hostile) opposition to firebreathing and ppl doing it:

My last encounter with a firebreather has been a few months back: I was spinning fire in a ditch on the beach, when this guy thinks it would be a "nice stunt" to breathe fire and involve me in the fireball... so he involves me into his stupidity and irresponsible behaviour by spitting Kerosene over me whilst I was spinning Poi. Meaning I have been covered in Kerosene: Hair, skin, clothing...

This has been the second occasion that a guy just does it without asking for my nod, the first time has been with powder (not as dangerous) a few years back. But madness seems to prevail along with stupidity.

So if YOU only learn from pain, why would this have to include ME (as a victim)? umm



You know Tom, no offense and this is written in a tone of exhasperation more than anything, you need to move on. I am not avert to your plight to rid the world of fire breathers (though I also don't support it at all), but I am to the tone you take with it AND I would like to add that no matter what of these arts you enter into there are idiots who will get you hurt.

Many of us who perform or have spun with strangers have horror stories like this.
I shared mine with you in another thread, so I'll not do it here.

Flashfire was seriously burned not that long ago because of idiots.
I was wickedly burned years ago because of idiots.
My friend Bennie had his stage catch fire because of idiots.
Reign in Vegas has some lovely scars up his back from idiot fire breathers.

None of us who've been stuck in a bad sit use it as a basis to judge everyone else who does those arts, and yet you seem to, very aggressively.

It's a sad and horrible statement but when you enter into *any* of these arts you are going to come across morons who think they know more than they do. They are not the standard, and being bitter and aggressive will *NEVER* help people understand your point, not when your tone gets in the way. Go ahead and deny it if you will, but your tone in more than this thread has exhibited an extreme amount of bitterness.
The louder you say don't, the less people will listen you.

People here have known others who have been hospitalized and/or died because of fire breathing, well outside of me. I know you have no pity or respect for that, your choice and fine, but I think your arguement about being spit on by one single idiot is pretty weak in comparison.
Especially that you blame all fire breathers, or those who intend to, for one person. You are seeming to assume everyone will be stupid as well, and that is simply not the case.

You got off easy. Be happy for that and move on because continuing to be pissed over something like this isn't going to help your cause. (Repeated Note: I am not at all avert to your cause to rid the world of fire breathers, but I am to the tone in which you do it and I feel like you are wasting your breath doing so, as evidence by the other thread where the person asking for info is not at all listening to you).

Is this an excuse for the idiots? Not a chance.
But if I spent all of my time and energy fighting them, I would never get to my shows.
You have to realize, you can't stop them. There are way too many.

Which leaves you with choices.
Inform/educate
Ignore and move on
or quit outright

Since you are choosing to not inform/educate, and I wouldn't want to see you quit at all, then I would suggest that you stick to private parties in private locations and just move on, or you will be angered and disappointed again, I garuntee.


Sorry, hijack over, back to your regularly schedule ARDS convo.


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK


ferrous
ferrous

member
Location: brisbane, queensland
Member Since: 4th Jan 2008
Total posts: 55
Posted: Written by: The Misguided Oracle


i'm certain there wouldn't have been fire breathing outside of circadia


i'm definitely willing to stand corrected on that one. as i said, the fire event didn't have my full attention.


when i grow up, i want to be a circus freak.


onewheeldave
Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield
Member Since: 28th Aug 2002
Total posts: 3252
Posted: Written by: Stout


OWD...by upping their game, I was speaking from an already spinning fire performer looking to all a little more drama to their act perspective. Really, audiences love it, especially at the opening of an act when they get exposed to the big wooooosh and blast of heat that instantly dispels any of those strange myths that we hear about on here once every blue moon about spinners using "real fire"




I know that audiences 'love it'.

Then again, in times/places where public executions/hangings/guilotinings took/take place, there's rarely a shortage of audience, who presumably are enjoying the spectacle smile

Now I know that a fire-breath is a very different thing to a execution, I'm simply pointing out that just because an audience loves it shouldn't necessarily override the reservations we have about fire-breathing.

I can guarantee that, in any audience, there's a portion who, if they knew the real risks and health consequences of fire breathing, would do exactly the same as me i.e. walk away, cos, to watch it is to support it and I/they don't want to support a performer who, in a real sense, is publicly self-harming.

And I think where education is concerned, this is a very important point- we all know the limitations of 'education' when it's directed towards (as Firetom puts it) the 'young immortals' who are wanting to learn to perform this- let's recognise the importance of also educationg the audiences and those who actually book these acts.

Cos, at least a portion of those who are watching/booking those acts, would think twice if they knew the reality of the risks of fire-breathing and the long term health consequences.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!


FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:Pele umm you read my post? It's not about one sick individual, I encountered double as much who endangered my life and wellbeing already. SO I DID get away, lucky me.



Now you suggest me waiting for the third (maybe not as lucky) encounter? How stupid would that be? It's not about those idiots (who are nice ppl outside their idiocy) alone, I too have friends who ended up in hospital. One of them dropped out the morning after a firebreath and is only alive because his mother found him lying on the floor and called the ambulance just in time.



Observing the way you're arguing ("I've been a fire breather myself, despite the facts and (lost) friends, I live well with scarred lungs, the community of fire breathers are on the rise, look at the loooong history of fire breathing") brings me to believe that you're passively encouraging firebreathers to carry on, to come here and to find you all ready, harnessed with compassion and the 'right' attitude to provide them with what they are asking for. Your choice.



Firebreathing with my fuel? NO

Firebreathing under my responsibility and supervision? NO

Firebreathing anywhere near where I am sitting? NO



As long as I can do something against it, I will. If it's in my responsibility, the insisting firebreather will get expelled. There will be no firebreathing at the Body Arts Convention. Period.



[edit] I'm not judging on firebreathers as human beings (even though for me they rank on the 'less skilled side of life') I am simply defining distinct boundaries of what I (don't) need in my very own life. If there is a circle or event, or gathering, or show that hosts firebreathers and I got the chance, I will leave before they conduct their act.



No, I don't mourn for ppl who breathe fire and drop dead as a result from it, why would I?

EDITED_BY: FireTom (1202101119)


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink


Pele
Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA
Member Since: 15th Dec 2000
Total posts: 6193
Posted:Maybe Tom, because they are people, and you seem to regard them as less than. Unless of course you don't mourn anyone who's ever had any kind of accident. At which point I will at least say you are consistent.

I never said you *had* to share your fuel or supervise, and if they are doing it near you, instead of stopping them, then move. You stepping on someone's right to do their thing because you don't like it is completely selfish. I can hear it now, that they are stepping on your right. Not really. Only if they ask you to leave or stop. You are not the law Tom, you have no right to act as such. You make the decision to not like it, then move.

I've said it before, I find your attitude to be aggressive, close-minded and confrontational...and it will get you no where with the people you claim to want to "save".

Fire breathing as a professional art takes a TREMENDOUS amount of skill and control. Anyone can fling any form of fire around but to do any of it well takes skill and control.

I am not passively encouraging anything. I am ACTIVELY encouraging education. If I didn't, I would have gone into hiding like so many other people who've had accidents. And I don' deny it at all, in fact I do so happily knowing that no matter what choice these people make, it will at least be an armed one.

As is very common with you, you're response comes from pieces you've gleened instead of the entire picture. The history I offered up has nothing to do with my wanting to encourage it to continue. It's a fact. It was in response to comments in this thread.

My statement that the number of fire breathers being on the rise, is likewise, a response to a comment made to the contrary. Which also supports the attitude of "all the more reason to have information readily at hand" taken by many.

I have never, and will never, use these things as a basis for someone to do any art. I can't think of a dumber reason. The fact that you saw fit to piece these things together in support of a weak accusation is quite sad to me.

The rest, you bet your ass it is my way of saying that your close minded aggression towards fb is, imo, unwarrented and unhealthy.

It's everyones personal choice, and yet what I am seeing is that you want to strip people of that. An act I find deplorable.


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK


onewheeldave
Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield
Member Since: 28th Aug 2002
Total posts: 3252
Posted:It really is up to the individual who they mourn- a lot of people, for example, state that they don't mourn the passing of heroin addicts, often cos they've had bad experiences with heroin addicts.

We can't actively mourn everyone who dies and I don't think Tom means any actual malice towards firebreathers who've perished.



 Written by: Pele



Fire breathing as a professional art takes a TREMENDOUS amount of skill and control. Anyone can fling any form of fire around but to do any of it well takes skill and control.





This is the problem- anyone can fling fire around without skill and control and, unfortunately, where I am, they make up the vast majority of 'firebreathers' I've encountered- maybe it's the same for Firetom, which would account for his hostility.

Serioiusly, in all the times I've seen firebreathers, there's very few occasions where they appeared professional, competant or even had any basic safety equipment.

But I've seen a good few who were drunk/stoned, a couple with beards who set their face on fire and heard about a couple who were doing the student party thing and encouraging drunken party goers (usually young women) to have a go.

I think when you're in an environment where there are virtually no competent/professional breathers, but plenty of idiots- that's when you start to say 'no fire breathing near me please'.

I took Tom to mean that, were he in some way organising a meet- he'd disallow fire breathing: I would do exactly the same in that position.

It's all well and good to say we should simply move, but, in the context of a fire meet, that's not really practical.

No-ones stopping the fire-breather from breathing fire, simply saying don't do it near us.

In the same way that we wouldn't want the afforementioned hypothetical home-made flame thrower enthusiast practicing near us, or that we wouldn't want heroin addicts shooting up near us.

They'll all welcome to do these things, just do them somewhere else.

As a fire spinner, I would not crash someones barbeque space and insist on spinning there- I'd ask and, if they said 'no', then that's totally fair enough- move on and find a place to spin where I'm not unwelcome.

Why then, should a fire breather have the right to do their stuff amongst a group of spinners who don't want them there?


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!


FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:Thanks Dave, I'm happy that - despite all the differences we had in the past discussions - you're keeping a biased view upon my point of view. hug

OMG Pele, what is that? Did I personally attack you? Or (better speaking) do you feel attacked, because I criticised your position in this topic? I worded clearly where my stance against FB comes from and what it includes.

Who I mourn or not and for which reason has nothing to do with it and is none of your business anyway. Instead of trying to discredit me on the "conditioned good" (mourning) and kindly practice the tolerance you wish to receive.

Having said this I feel compelled to explain it to you again:

 Written by: Pele

Maybe Tom, because they are people, and you seem to regard them as less than. Unless of course you don't mourn anyone who's ever had any kind of accident. At which point I will at least say you are consistent.



As I said: None of your business, but I don't disregard anyone just because they do what they do personally I emphasised on "in their function (as firebreathers)". Suharto might have been a good Dad, otherwise his daughter wouldn't have been in tears when he died. Still I can't mourn the death of a totalitarian dictator...

Would I include any of your personality as to strengthen my argumentation? Try sticking to facts and arguments.

 Written by: Pele

I never said you *had* to share your fuel or supervise, and if they are doing it near you, instead of stopping them, then move. You stepping on someone's right to do their thing because you don't like it is completely selfish. I can hear it now, that they are stepping on your right. Not really. Only if they ask you to leave or stop. You are not the law Tom, you have no right to act as such. You make the decision to not like it, then move.



No I'm not the law and I will move unless it's under my supervision. In which case I will stop them. Someones rights or personal freedom end when they actively endanger my health and wellbeing and those who trust theirs into my hands.

If you're "actively" encouraging 'education' (not equalling mere 'information'), you'd direct them to a responsible individual near their location as much as you provide online informations.

But thanks for making me aware that my perception of the world is not on the entire picture, but on fractions. The FB's that I came across have been 90% incompetent and 9% irresponsibly stoned out of their skulls whilst performing their act. I have met 1% responsible firebreathers who were displaying and practising the necessary precautions.

Add the articles that I linked to and you will find my stance being solidly based upon responsibility and reason. I don't feel like finally getting hurt by some looney, only that Pele then accepts my personal point of view, which is only applicable to my personal space.

If you - for the sake of 'art' - decide to put the safety and health of those at risk who trust you, then it's your personal choice. There is nothing I can do about it, but stay away from your events and gigs.

To me, firesafety (especially at a public gig) is the highest priority. Which is why - in all the eleven years playing with fire - I have not caused more than a bruise on a fellow spinner and have never seriously endangered any of my audience...

Call me 'boring' rolleyes wink

No, I haven't met each and every firebreather on the planet and yes (thanks again) my picture depends on fractions. But I don't judge them outside their performance, be assured.

As for the rest I would prefer you coming back to facts and reason, thus leaving behind personal attacks. Thanks dear.


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink


BansheeCat
veteran
Location: lost
Member Since: 29th Jul 2005
Total posts: 1247
Posted:I recently haqd to ban fire breathing, and even fire tracing on the body, as we were travelling doing a fire circus for children in the North of Thailand. I decided it was okay during the shows presented for adults, when we were fund raising, cause adults can take advantage of the opportunity to educate themselves safety wise, and make mature choices. Too often kids just mimic , without understanding the dangers.



i was surprised at how many people questionned my decision to ban those fire arts during the childrens performances, who thought that the kids would either not try it, or that they would learn quickly upon trying it that fire hurts on the body etc... Er? huh? If that is the case, perhaps I would rather just not be the one that introduces them to that idea!





i took a harder stance then I might of otherwise cause f a recent experience at a full moon party, where one of I saw a fire breathing accident. I just saw the last bit, so I did not know if I was dealing with a drunk or drugged incompetent, or a professional who had suffered a accident of the really accidental sort. I saw him staggering and convulsing, but had not seen clearly if he had ingested fuel, if it was the wrong fuel, or if he had actually inhaled fire. He was unable to speak, so it was a bit unclear.



I realized quickly that I had no idea what proper first aid would be for any of those situations, even if I did know exactly which had occurred...terrifying.



At any rate, it made me realize I just did not want to be there when firebreathing was happening, not ever, cause if something does go wrong, I would likely be the one trying to handle the consequences.



I am not prepared, or even willing, to do that...


"God *was* my co-pilot, but then we crashed, and I had to eat him..."


Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13919
Posted: Written by: FireTom


Firebreathing with my fuel? NO
Firebreathing under my responsibility and supervision? NO
Firebreathing anywhere near where I am sitting? NO

As long as I can do something against it, I will. If it's in my responsibility, the insisting firebreather will get expelled. There will be no firebreathing at the Body Arts Convention. Period.



My lord. You sound like a representative for "Partnership for a Firebreathing-Free America" or something.

You try hard enough to ban something and it will only make it that much more enticing.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura


onewheeldave
Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield
Member Since: 28th Aug 2002
Total posts: 3252
Posted:I see no indication in any of Firetoms posts that he's trying to ban firebreathing.



He seems to be saying the following 4 things



1. he's not going to let fire breathers wander up and use his fuel



(fair enough, I don't let fire breathers use my fuel either, why would I??)



2. he's not going to assume a role of responsibility or teach others to firebreathe



(again,something that I totally agree with)



3. he doesn't want fire breathers doing it near him



(given that,apparently, like me, most of the 'firebreathers he encounters are irresponsible idiots, again, it makes sense to not want them doing it around him



In particular, given that several of the accounts of long-term hospitalisation have been due, not to burns, but to inhaling unburnt asperated fuel, there is a clear danger that fir breathing near an individual, especially if the breather is inept, puts that individual (ie firetom) at risk)



4. expulsion of 'insisting firebreathers' (ie those that continue despite having it pointed out that,at this event, fire breathing is dissallowed) at any event for which he (firetom) is in a position of responsibility.



Given that responsibility could be both legal (ie he could be liable for anyone damaged) and moral, again, it seems like a simple statement of good sense, rather than anything controversial.



Ultimately, we're all after pretty much the same thing here (cutting deaths/injuries from fire-breathing)- there's more in common than different.



In particular, Doc (and Pele) have put up some of the most useful documents on the internet, to achieve that end.



But I feel that you're both having a go at firetom for things which he's not really saying- maybe there's some misunderstanding/misinterpretation of what he's saying?



But, for the four points above, like I say, I fully support each one of them and consider them to be common sense, so, if anyone's got any issues which those four points, feel free to take it up with me and I'll be happy to clarify/defend them (or, have my mind changed smile).


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!


Gnor
Gnor

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Perth
Member Since: 31st Mar 2003
Total posts: 5814
Posted:Agreeance with 1,2 and 3. Would like 4 but not feasible.

Is it the Truth?
Is it Fair to all concerned?
Will it build Goodwill and Better Friendships?
Will it be Beneficial to all concerned?

Im in a lonely battle with the world with a fish to match the chip on my shoulder. Gnu in Binnu in a cnu


FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:Thanks Dave, this is what I'm saying. Maybe the bold writing (as in 'fat' rolleyes ) makes me appear like shouting, but is only used to highlight what I regard the particulars.



As previously said, I will bear any hostility that derives from being anti-firebreathing, to me it's just a question of integrity.



I know it's a stunning act, I've been mesmerized by it too, until I found out about the dangers involved and the risk that every FB is putting himself and his audience at. I don't care how old it's traditions are (bullfighting has an even longer tradition, I still appreciate it vanishing).



99% of the firebreathers I previously encountered had NO CLUE that drinking milk or veg oil will decrease the amount of paraffin absorbed by their body. I mean, guys this is THE most simple precaution you can perform to protect yourself. Only TWO of all had towels to wipe excess fuel from their faces and only ONE was telling the kids present that they should not try this a home.



Would you (not) agree that:



1) there is a competition amongst firebreathers going on about who spits the longest and furthest, involving higher amounts of fuel - and increasing the dangers of backfiring (yes I'm aware of what "a mouthful" is)

2) some firebreathers just aim to distinguish themselves and happily use "aggressive fuel", if nothing else is available, increasing the likelihood of an accident

3) most firebreathers are displaying a horribly lax attitude towards their health and that of their audience

4) the least firebreathers use and display the necessary precautions to the general audience before and whilst performing their act

5) firebreathing is one of the most attractive fireperformances, at the same time one of the easiest to perform (unless 'safe' is the emphasis), thus being one of the most appealing to imitate.



I find it extremely strange that especially the two of you, Pele and Mike, seem to have a problem with my stance. Is it technical or personal? umm Pls specify.

EDITED_BY: FireTom (1202442206)


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink


FireTom
Stargazer

Member Since: 20th Sep 2003
Total posts: 6650
Posted:As I've been talking to 3 Russian performers, they claim to face great hardship from government officials since the firebreathing accident in that Moscow nightclub. Meaning that they get harassed and prohibited from legally performing in public in Moscow.

I still have to verify with more performers and hear about the details, but that's what it is so far and I just would like to see ppl help to avoid similar scenarios in other places.


the best smiles are the ones you lead to wink


natasqi
natasqi

addict
Location: Perth
Member Since: 4th Jul 2007
Total posts: 489
Posted:If anyone is interested (because some said here a while ago there have been no studies on firebreathing) I've found a few studies on incidences!!

Just in case people are interested. I hope you can see the articles, I have to use password and the like to enter the journals.

r Med J. 2002 Oct ;95 (9):276-7 12470000 (P,S,E,B)
Fire breathing pneumonia.
[My paper] M Moore, E Fitzgerald, M Bennett
Department of Medicine, Mercy Hospital, Cork. drmmoore@eircom.net
Rounded lesions on chest x-ray can often be difficult both to diagnose and to treat. We report a case of a right middle lobe lesion in a young, previously healthy patient who presented with pleurtic chest pain and haemoptysis. His symptoms and chest x-ray appearance were caused by exposure to paraffin oil (kerosene), a substance commonly used for medical as well as domestic purposes.
http://lib.bioinfo.pl/pmid:12470000


Pulmonary infiltrates following butane 'fire-breathing'

T. R. Cartwright, E. D. Brown and R. E. Brashear

Rapidly progressive bilateral pulmonary infiltrates occurred in a 19-year-old man following an unusual hydrocarbon abuse. The acute illness was the result of a "trick" known as "fire-breathing." Fire-breathing involves filling the oral cavity with butane gas, from an ordinary butane cigarette/cigar lighter, and exhalation of the volatile vapors over an open flame producing a flame-throwing effect. Because of the pulmonary toxic reaction, this activity could have a serious or even fatal outcome.
http://archinte.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/abstract/143/10/2007

Burn injuries caused by fire breathing

Michael McCleaveCorresponding Author Contact Information, E-mail The Corresponding Author and John Greenwood
Department of Plastic and Reconstructive Surgery, The Royal Adelaide Hospital, North Terrace, Adelaide 5000, South Australia, Australia
Accepted 28 October 2004. Available online 5 March 2005.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob...fdc68f5c4#bbib3

Burn injury due to fire eating

J. VargheseCorresponding Author Contact Information, P. J. Regan, P. G. Budny and A. H. N. Roberts
Department of Plastic, Reconstructive and Bum Surgery, Stoke Mandeville Hospital, Aylesbury, Buckinghamshire, UK
Accepted 10 September 1991. Available online 29 April 2005.

Abstract

Two examples of the injuries sustained by fire-eaters' are described, the hazards of the occupation are explained and preventive precautions are discussed.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob...ff&ref=full
- this one I haven't been able to recieve a full text of yet, but I'll tell you when I do smile

Yay, just my two cents...



0ni
0ni

member
Location: Connecticut
Member Since: 3rd May 2008
Total posts: 59
Posted:ok first of all, i did not finish reading the last 8 or so posts, instead i got all fired up to write something back so here it is!

i strongly disagree with anybody telling anyone to quit doing something just because it's dangerous. it is just as dangerous every time you take a bite of a sandwich (mama cass!), sit down on the toilet (elvis!), get behind the wheel of a car, pick up an UNLIT toy (if things are moving fast enough and you crack yourself in the eyes or nose just right..doc?), wake up, fall asleep, step out of your house, etc. etc. etc.

i strongly advocate that you provide all the information possible for people to be able to make an educated decision themselves, regardless of the activity. if someone has no information about the potential hazards of something (fire, electricity, sadism, rock & roll...), the chances that they are going to know how to avoid hurting themselves and others are slim to none. i would be willing to bet those of you who are raging against providing this information also firmly disagree with sex and drug education in schools, yes?

as someone who is fairly young and fairly healthy who has very low interest in firebreathing at all, seeing this thread and the articles written about it has indeed opened my eyes to some dangers and precautions i did not already know about, the ARDS being one of them. I had a friend tell me the other day about getting drunk near a lake and firebreathing with his friends using lamp oil

when i get in touch with him again, i will link him to the articles here because i don't think it's fair to be involved with something unless you know all the risks associated with it, and what to do if something happens.

while i don't believe that this information on the internet should be the end-all be-all of someone's training in firebreathing or other activities, it is ultimately much more beneficial for it to exist than to ban people from it forever.

and i also don't think you should taboo something like firebreathing just because a bunch of people are assholes. i am afraid every day when i get into my car and get ready to drive the <5 miles to work, because of all the idiots out there on the road. i also know full well all the pollutants my car emits and all the potential hazards it poses to everyone around me and in future generations....yet i still choose to drive.

so pele got hurt. she learned a very valuable lesson. i have even more respect for her that she continues to work in her craft and educate people about it rather than condemn it to some dark empty hole. fear controls us all - just look at the american government ;3

she is rising above that fear and becoming its master, rather than letting it rule her. to poorly paraphrase her article, she was reminded that RESPECT is the most important thing to know. no amount of training or knowledge will save you if you do not hold respect (and NOT fear) for whatever it happens to be that you are dealing with. accidents are not called accidents because they happen on purpose, after all...but increasing the knowledge that people have in their hands and in their mind about something before they choose to pursue it will GREATLY reduce the risk of harm (like what the doc says) and the risk of accidents happening.

i don't pretend to be eloquent, but i hope i was able to provide another viewpoint to this >year long discussion. that being said, over and out!


DEAD FREEDOM
if you've forgotten how to scream, then scream here and live here


Ammu
stranger

Member Since: 28th Mar 2008
Total posts: 10
Posted:I don't think firebreathing should be avoided or banned.

All the fire breathers I know are responsible and sensible people who know how to firebreath and take all possible safety precautions. Then again, I live in the Netherlands, and it might be different in other countries.



I do fire breathing, I wouldn't say I am a star at it, but I do think it's pretty and impressive. And I love to do it, It makes my fireshow more complete. I would never ever endanger audience. I breath twice a day twice a week maximum, no more. Often less. I don't drink, smoke or abuse drugs. I don't do a fire breath if I don't feel like it or when I'm tired.

I know the risks. I have heared many horror stories. Even my very own brother lies in the hospital right now, Due to fire breathing.



A few day's ago he had been fire breathing with me and his girlfriend. It was his second time. It all went perfect and smooth, But afterwards he had been coughing really badly and even trew up a couple of times, eventhough we told him not to. If he had accidently and unnoticing swallowed some oil, it would do more damage. The next day he felt good enough to go to the gym. but the day after he had some fever and musle ache in his chest, and was still coughing. We made him see the doctor (he took the msds with him). Who told him it was probably because he didn't feel very well and went to the gym. the next day (today) he felt worse, He had high fever and was short on breath, he couldn't do anything for more than three minutes without beng exhausted. He was dizzy and tired, trew up again and kept coughing. a few hours ago he was transported to the ER of the nearest hospitale. He's is now being examined. We don't know what he has. but It's most likely due to the fire breathing.



It's horrible, But I know that in no way this would affect my fire breathing. I will continue doing it because I love it.

But should it, just because it's very dangerous, (and more dangerous than other fire arts) be avoided? I don't think so, people will continue to do it, even if they are not allowed. Smoking is dangerous too, but somehow they continue to do so and even endangerer the lives of others (passive smoking).



I thinks it would be better to make people know the dangers they put themselves into and teach them how to reduce the risks rather then having them breathing fire anyway, but without proper assitance and safety masures.



Btw, I hope you don't mind my english, it sucks, it's not my native language.



Edit: My brother has chemical pneumonia, and lies on the lung department. He has to stay there for a while to see if the antibiotics work.

EDITED_BY: Ammu (1210630729)



onewheeldave
Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield
Member Since: 28th Aug 2002
Total posts: 3252
Posted: Written by :Ammu


Even my very own brother lies in the hospital right now, Due to fire breathing.

A few day's ago he had been fire breathing with me and his girlfriend. It was his second time. It all went perfect and smooth, But afterwards he had been coughing really badly and even trew up a couple of times


Edit: My brother has chemical pneumonia, and lies on the lung department. He has to stay there for a while to see if the antibiotics work.



I hope your brother makes a good recovery.

From what you write though, his fire breathe did not go perfect and smooth- otherwise he wouldn't be in hospital with chemical pneumonia.

Something went wrong and, if he (or you) plan to continue fire breathing, I feel it would be beneficial if you analysed exactly what did go wrong, so you could avoid the same thing happening next time.


 Written by :Ammu



But should it, just because it's very dangerous, (and more dangerous than other fire arts) be avoided? I don't think so, people will continue to do it, even if they are not allowed. Smoking is dangerous too, but somehow they continue to do so and even endangerer the lives of others (passive smoking).




It's down to the choice of the individual considering doing fire breathing- obviously it can't be banned.

For that choice to be made properly, the full facts of the dangers of fire breathing need to be available.

Before quite recently, this was not the case- the full extent of the hundreds of serious injuries were not public knowledge.

Thankfully, this is now (slowly) changing.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!


Ammu
stranger

Member Since: 28th Mar 2008
Total posts: 10
Posted:The reason he has chemical pneumonia is because his breathing technique is different then mine (and different from others) which caused fuel getting into his stomach, it is a very little bit of fuel but he is allergic to it which made him trow up. And when he was trowing up the fuel came into his lungs.

He has to stay in the hospitale for a few weeks, his fever lowered and in the evening it went up again.



onewheeldave
Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield
Member Since: 28th Aug 2002
Total posts: 3252
Posted: Written by :Ammu


The reason he has chemical pneumonia is because his breathing technique is different then mine (and different from others) which caused fuel getting into his stomach, it is a very little bit of fuel but he is allergic to it which made him trow up. And when he was trowing up the fuel came into his lungs.




Are you sure?

That would seem to suggest he inhaled his own vomit?


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!


Pele
Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA
Member Since: 15th Dec 2000
Total posts: 6193
Posted: Written by :onewheeldave


Are you sure?

That would seem to suggest he inhaled his own vomit?



I agree with that OWD.

And stomach acid in the lungs can cause ARDS, absolutely.
I know several college kids that can attest to that.


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK


0ni
0ni

member
Location: Connecticut
Member Since: 3rd May 2008
Total posts: 59
Posted:it could be a mixture of stomach acid and fuel, in that case. if he inhaled his own vomit and the last thing he ingested was the fuel then a combination of that AND stomach acid seems most likely, but not definitely one or the other.

DEAD FREEDOM
if you've forgotten how to scream, then scream here and live here


Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13919
Posted: Written by :Pele


[And stomach acid in the lungs can cause ARDS, absolutely.
I know several college kids that can attest to that.



Yup. It can be far worse than fuel.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura


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