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Forums > Technical Discussion > Coloured Flames FAQ (First draft)

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Durbs
BRONZE Member since Sep 2001

Durbs

Classically British
Location: Epsom, Surrey, England

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Posted:Dom asked me (well, I asked him if he wanted me to, but anyway) to put together an FAQ which can remain as a sticky on top of this forum. Here's my first draft.

Comments welcome

~~~~~~~~

Coloured Flames FAQ



As much as we all love the yellow/orange flames produced by kerosene/parraffin - there is something captivating seeing a flame that is the "wrong" colour.

By adding the right chemicals to fuel, it is possible to turn your flames; Blue, Green, Red, White, Purple, Orange (but *really* Orange) and black.



Well ok, not black.



This article is a compilation of all the knowledge acquired over the years at Home of Poi about achieving coloured flames - what to use, how to use it, how not to use it, and all the relevant safety information.

Full credit must be give to all those that contributed to the boards about coloured flames - Many Thanks biggrin hug



Before we get into all the chemicals, here's a few things you should know before trying these:



1) Your wicks will be ruined.

~ Not only are some of the chemicals corrosive to metal, the higher burning temperature of the methylated spirits means the kevlar will degrade quicker too. If you can, it's advisable to have a normal fire wick/poi/staff and a coloured flame one - even going so far as a different wick for each different colour. Some of the chemicals can leave a manky reisdue which builds up on the wicks after a while - not only looking (and often smelling) unpleasant, but severly reducing the wicks' burn-time.



2) Toxic: Hazardous to Health

~ Some of the chemicals (including just Meths!) are pretty nasty - both in their "natural" state and the vapours they produce whilst burning. It's advisable to not regularly use any of these (try and limit yourself to 2 burns a night) even go as far as wearing a pollution mask. Wear some rubber gloves whilst handling them, and wash your hands before touching your eye or any other sensitive area of your body wink No one likes a chemical burn.

DO NOT EVEN CONSIDER DOING FIRE BREATHING WITH ANY OF THESE CHEMICALS



3) It's hot

~ May seem obvious, but it's always good to be aware smile Whilst you may feel happy doing bare-skin wraps with kero/paraffin, it's not really advisble to do it with these mixes. Not only does the Meths burn hotter than both kero and Coleman's/White Gas, the chemicals will also be burning and could do nasty things to your lovely arms. Wear nice loose fitting natural fiber tops and trousers. No-one likes a spinner in a shell-suit

~~~

So, onto the chemicals biggrin



What chemicals make what coloured flames?

(NB - There may be other chemicals which produce these, and other, colours, but these are the best for fire spinning)

Green - Boric Acid

Red - Lithium Chloride

Lilac - Potassium Chloride

Purple - Potassium Nitrate aka "Saltpetre" (*Warning* Burns VERY hot)

Blue - Copper Chloride



Where can I get these chemicals?

Apparently, they are all available through pottery stores as they are all used for different colour glazes. Boric Acid is easy to find, your local (big) pharmacy should have it, some DIY stores also stock it as "Roach Powder". Lithium Chloride is a bit tricky to get hold of as it's an anti-depressant. For the rest, try an internet search, or if any of you know chemistry students - ask them to ask their lab assistants.



What fuels can I use to dissolve the chemicals?

Methylated Spirits (Meths) is best for this, you can also use denatured alcohol, however this is a lot more volatile and burns a lot hotter.



How much chemical should I use?

The general consensus is "as much as will dissolve in the meths". Stir the meths and keep pouring in the chemical until it won't dissolve anymore. More meths can be added to "soak up" the extra chemicals.



What are the health risks of using these chemicals?

As with all fuels - your first port of call should be the MSDS (Material Safety Data Sheet) If it doesn't have one - try looking it up HERE

Just burning meths produces toxic vapours - these chemicals all add to this. It's sensible to limit yourself to two coloured spins a night, and also to wear a pollution mask. If you feel at all unwell/dizzy/high - put them out, walk a fair distance away and take some nice deep breaths of clean air. No matter how pretty the flames are, it's not worth getting sick over.



I mixed the meths with x-chemical but it didn't work - why?

There could be many reasons for this - however the most common is using your regular wicks to try these out on. It's best to use the chemicals on un-used wicks. If you tried using your normal fire wicks, chances are the residual parrafin on the wicks was burning too and burns brighter than the other fuels thus "drowning out" the colour. The more often you use a chemical on a wick, the clearer that colour will become - as mentioned earlier it's best to have a seperate poi/wick/staff for your coloured flames - even a different prop for each colour.



My poi don't burn as brightly or as long as I'm used to - why?

There's no way around this unfortunately. Due to the higher temperatures involved in burning meths, plus all the chemicals being used, the flames won't be as bright and the fuel is used up a lot quicker. Only solution is to use bigger wicks smile



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Big Andy
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Posted:Might want to include that lithium is hard to get ahold of since it's an anti-depressant. At least I think it is. I haven't actually tried to obtain it myself, lol.

Or is it available through pottery stores as well?

Other than that, looks good. We desperately need a FAQ for this topic, spank


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adamrice


adamrice

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Posted:Boric acid is also readily available as roach powder.

Laugh while you can, monkey-boy

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thor


thor

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Location: Portland, Oregon

Total posts: 181
Posted:and methyl ethyl ketone dosen't desolve boric acid...

but straight methanol does

methanol/boric acid produces a really nice green flame, but unfortunatly, not huge flames...


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darkpoet
BRONZE Member since May 2003

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Posted:Quote:
and methyl ethyl ketone dosen't desolve boric acid...



first off.....your an idiot for using MEK you need to take another look at your msds...mek is f###ing toxic like no other

another thing....denatured alcohol is readily available and when mixed with boric it makes a warm pastel green....do a search for it too
also read the reccomended fuels list....you dont mess with things like gasoline or mek because of volitility and toxicity.....


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Ade
SILVER Member since Mar 2001

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Posted:Nice one durbs - thanks for the effort you have put into doing this.

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Durbs
BRONZE Member since Sep 2001

Durbs

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Location: Epsom, Surrey, England

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Posted:Thanks for all the feedback - I've tweaked it in places now as suggested...
Assuming there are no more points - I'll try and er, make it sticky


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tenticle


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Posted:

Alternative chemicals that might be easier to get but might not work so well without playing:

Red: Strontium or lithium carbonate- used mostly in fireworks, might need hotter fuel, but you can usually get some on ebay. if you need hotter fuel, you can try mixing some octane boosting petrol additive (be careful), or use ethanol. Strontium makes a bright scarlet, lithium more a dark lipsticky colour.

Blue: Copper-arsenic compounds. Nice bright blue, but you need to lower the burn temperature of the fuel, if it burns too hot the flame is nearly invisible. Copper chloride. Calcium chloride (a bleach used in cloth dying) makes nice orange flames with blue edges if you soak sawdust and add to a campfire, so might work. Arsenic compounds make a realy nice pale blue, but you probably do't want arsenic vapour around. Possibly use a gas mask. But if you're making any metal vapours that'd be a good idea.

Purple: Mixtures of red and blue producing compounds. Don't bother with potassium acetate (too dim) or potassium nitrate (too dangerous- can burn hot enough to make the metal bits glow). Potassium sulphate isn't bad. Oh, yeah, Indium compounds. Really nice violet, but really expensive. If using potassium, make sure there's no lithium or sodium anywhere near or you won't get purple.

Green: Copper sulphate. Copper carbonate.

Bright white: epsom salts (magnesium chloride).


There is a product used in stage shows called firefx that comes in several colours, that is mixed with normal white-burning lamp oil to produce colours, but i think it needs a special electric heated wick. (might be fun though)

skylighter.com is a fireworks and pyro company in the USA, and sell most chemicals (including lithium chloride) for interesting flames. In the UK it is harder to get stuff, as firework making is illegal, and poking about asking for some things may attract unwanted police attention...


You could try this. Make single use coloured flame heads out of wrapped towling. then you can do some interesting things like soak them in cloroform and PVC to act as a chlorine donor to weak colours like potassium, and to carbonates to make them work at lower temperatures. Wait for them to dry, then dip them in the coloured fuel- the pvc won't come out into the fuel. Potassium perchlorate would work, too, but i'm not sure there is an easy solvent. There are also chlorinated parrafin waxes that disolve in meths that could do the same job. Probably best not to use this with copper if you're going for a green, as it'd make it too blue.
I wouldn't try this on normal kevlar, though, as i'm not sure it'll like it. Actually, i would, because then i'd know.

--ben


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Durbs
BRONZE Member since Sep 2001

Durbs

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Posted:Trawing through the boards, some of those were mentioned, but they all seemed too dangerous to have on a FAQ for general advice - good for specialists perhaps, but not really for the coloured flame newbie...

Especially petrol and Copper-arsenic compounds

Thanks though smile


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MiG
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Posted:Well, I think that copper filings, or any filings, for that matter, might work. im not sure that any of the fuels will but hot enough, though. However, if the filings are fine enough, and i mean really, really fine, there shouldnt be too much of a problem. One idea might be to dip the wick in kero, then simply sprinkle the filings onto the wet wick, rather than dissolve them in the fuel.

Like i say, i dont know for sure, but its an idea, that would be fairly cheap, pretty safe, and unlikely to cause police attention.


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Durbs
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Posted:Hmmm - I don't think it would work. Simply the kero would burn brighter than the filings. Also, if they did burn, I can't see them lasting very long.
With a proper mixed fuel - your entire burn will be coloured


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MiG
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Posted:true, true. One idea that came to me literally as i was clicking on reply is this: Would it be possible to smehow chemically suspend the metal in the fuel, much like the old school experiments, where a nail got copper plated, but skip the nail, and have the fuel itself be copper infused. That should have the whole of the flame burn a vibrant colour.

But then, i havent done chemistry for a fair while, and im forgetting things left, right, and center. At the moment, i'm still trying to get good enough with fire by itself, without worrying about colours and stuff. I might talk to some mates of mine, though. I reckon one is doing some form of chem at uni, so i'll see if he has any ideas.


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tenticle


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Posted:Quote:
Trawing through the boards, some of those were mentioned, but they all seemed too dangerous to have on a FAQ for general advice - good for specialists perhaps, but not really for the coloured flame newbie...

Especially petrol and Copper-arsenic compounds

Thanks though smile



that's cool, i ran across my chemistry notes from when we did flame emission spectrography and thought it might give some people ideas. I've got this really good diagram that shows emmission colour wavelength and where various compounds emit on it, and why purples best made from mixing rather than one compound.

To increase the heat of methanol burning, i didn't mean add petrol, i meant use that stuff you add to unleaded if your car dosn't like it and you don't want to set the timing back to much.

I've ordered some carbonated things, so i'm going to try the pvc/towel idea- thinking about it, you should be able to build layered heads that change colour as you burn them...

--ben


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shoddygoods


shoddygoods

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Total posts: 18
Posted:i was actually going to start a difinitive colour thread a few months ago but as i hadent had enfough posts to put up pictures id didnt do it...

right now i'm using the boric acid for green and lithium chloride for red...

i use 60 grams of lithium chloride for 1 gallon of denatured alcohol...
its not really a red flame tho... its more magenta... (its twards the pink end)
the lithium doesnt really want to disolve right away... it totally will but i work it
a bit more by bringing it up to a higher temperature...
(THIS I MIGHT ADD ITS NOT THE SAFEST THING TO DO!)
this entails putting it on the stove and raising the temp till it starts to bubble and you get a slight foam on the top as the lithium melts and disolves in to the alcohol. bear in mind that if you dont know what your doing you can very easily create lots of fuel vapor in your kitchen and create a HUGE fire ball if it catches... (this is partly why stills are illegal)

as for the boric acid, it works at that concentration but i prefer something
more like 90 grams per gallon.... that gives a sweet eerie green colour...
this BTW does not need to be heated it takes quite nicely to the alcohol...


if i can get a picture gallery i'll post a few pics we took a month or so ago...



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shoddygoods


shoddygoods

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Total posts: 18
Posted:i'm not really being nit picky but i'm curious about a few things...



i've read i think every post on HOP about coloured flames, and

ive read lots of information on other sites... MOST of which seams

to be rather speculative...are their folks it the community that have

ACTUALLY made these colours?

if so i'd like to see real evidence, not to be rude, but i guess i'm tired

of people guessing about it, and i'd like to see photos and ratios or

measurements of thing people have used THEMSELVES.....



after months of wading thru and testing lots of things,

i do have a list of a few things that actually do work. as well as a longer

list of things that quite frankly didn't (for me anyway)



one more thing.....

personally i dont like the idea that i keep seeing about adding as much of these chemicals as you can to produce colours.... this is just plain not smart, common sense should dictate that you should use the least amount required to produce the desired result..... any more quite frankly just increases your chances of feeling the negative effects of all these chemical that everyone agrees are not the best for your health...





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Durbs
BRONZE Member since Sep 2001

Durbs

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Posted:Yeah, the one's in the FAQ have all been tried and tested - that's partly why I'm not going to add any more into it - Alot of this is just speculative thinking, which wasn't the point of it smile

The point of the FAQ is to show people how to get a guaranteed result - if people want to play with other things, fine, but this was just a easy "How To" guide - that works biggrin


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MiG
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MiG

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Posted:Oh. My mistake then. I spose i should search for a bouncing ideas about possibilities for coloured flames topic then.

*Draws his broadsword, and wades into the search function*

*sheathes broadsword.*
Humph, that wasnt too bad after all.


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shoddygoods


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Total posts: 18
Posted:sorry if i came off as rather abrupt,
it was not my intention to kill any dialogue about the making of coloured flames... i'm just curious to see the actual ratios or weights which people are using to produce said effects.
i suppose at times for me the line becomes blurred between speculation
and actual fact when i dont see a photo or mixing instructions...

the my avatar is actually an unaltered photo of the lithium mix discribed above:
60grams of lithium chloride power to 1 gallon denatured alcohol...

tonight i will try to take a few more pics, or perhaps a side by side comparison and post the mix i used to attain them.


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doug


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Posted:hi, i've been playing around with boric acid b4, and recently tried the potassium chloride, picked some up, mixed with methlyted spirits and made a fresh wick, but there only seemed to be a very slight difference to the colour, is that it or am i missing something, i did notice that not much of the chemical had dissolved, so i put it in a hot water bath, a little more dissolved but no difference in colour. also it was still in crystal form, would crushing it into a finer powder help? thanks smile

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darkpoet
BRONZE Member since May 2003

darkpoet

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Posted:Quote:


Bright white: epsom salts (magnesium chloride).





yeah i tried it..doesnt work...


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shoddygoods


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Total posts: 18
Posted:all the epsom salts i've come across have been magnisuim sulfate and not magnesium chloride..... recently we've found that lithium acetate also makes a red flame, i'm working now to see how the concentrations for the chlorides and acetates compare.



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phidauex


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Posted:I'm gonna have to agree.. The information here is all based on heresy and conjecture... Any FAQ about colored flames should be based on actual information, instead of just 'i heard that maybe you'd get this color if you maybe used this stuff'.



Here's a few clarifications you might like, based on actual experience.



Safety: These chemicals aren't universally dangerous. If you want information about inhalation hazards, look up the MSDS for the chemical you are using. In nearly all cases, inhalation of the chemical powder will be worse than inhalation of the burned product. Salts don't turn into a gas, they decompose into their base chemicals. The organic products produced when burning any fuel will be as bad as or worse than most of these chemicals. Also, if you squeeze your wicks out by hand, you should consider getting a pair of gloves. Solvents can let chemicals into your body through your skin, and you don't want to be absorbing these chemicals through your hands if you can help it. That said, the safest are probably the chlorides, sulfates, and acetates and things that don't involve heavy metals such as chromium. When in doubt, read the MSDS, and limit your exposure.



Shoddygoods is right, you shouldn't be putting in as much chemical as possible, you should be putting in as LITTLE as possible to get the desired effect.



Here are some ideas based on things we've actually done:



Fuel: Denatured alcohol.



An aside on fuel... Around the world, people use all sorts of crazy names for fuel. You should, as a rule, ignore whatever crazy crap people are telling you about your fuel, and contact the company that made it, and get an MSDS for the fuel, it will tell you exactly what you are using. Most companies have the MSDS online, and if they don't, they will mail it to you, email it to you, or fax it to you. They are required to do this by most countries laws.



The fuel we are using is Klean-Strip brand Denatured Alcohol, which is about 55% Ethanol, 40% Methanol, and 5% 'misc', Ethyl Acetate, Methyl Isobutyl Ketone, etc. This is a higher concentration of Methanol than most Denatured alcohols. When you are saying what fuel you have used, please tell us what your fuel is made up of, not just the regional name 'meths', 'meth spirits', 'denatured alcohol' etc. Be aware that methanol is fairly toxic before its burned (after which the products are only as bad as anything else you'd burn, if not better, since it burns so clean), so limit your exposure to the vapors, and try to keep it off your skin.



Our fuel burns a pale orangish color with no other chemicals added.



Colors:

Red: Lithium Chloride: about 15 grams per Liter. The fuel may need to be gently heated to aid dissolving, don't heat with an open flame, use an electric heater.

Red: Lithium Acetate: about 25 grams per liter. Dissolved without trouble at room temperature. Color is about the same as the Lithium Chloride, but seems to require higher concentrations. I'm using it because I had a bunch lying around, Lithium chloride might be a better overall solution.

Green: Boric acid: about 22.5 grams per liter works well. Produces a nice pale green. Does not need heat to dissolve in the fuel.



Other colors? Pure speculation. Cupric Sulfate (Copper II Sulfate) does NOT properly dissolve in the alcohol we are using. Copper chloride may give blue, but we need to experiment with it.



If you created other colors, let us know what chemical you used, what fuel (exactly!) you are using, and how much you added to get the desired effect.



We'll have some side by side photos to compare the colors soon. I know this data seems sparse, but I'd rather us have a little bit of good info, than a bunch of speculation. We'll be getting more with time.



A quick note on how to GET these chemicals. Boric Acid is sold as a roach killing powder. Lithium Chloride is sold for firework making and theatrical pyrotechnics, through stores such as: http://www.iowapyrosupply.com/
br>


Keep in mind that you may have to pay a Hazmat charge to get these shipped to you, and you may be asked to provide ID, and possibly possess a pyrotechnics license, depending on your locality. Your best bet would be to seek out a local theatrical pyro supply store to avoid high shipping costs for hazardous materials. Keep in mind that pyro places will expect you to know at least a little about what you are doing, and sell a whole lot of stuff that you DON'T want to use in poi, so don't just pick up a little of this and that and toss it together, just get what you know you need.



Well, this is only the tip of the iceberg, but I hope it helps.



Peace,

Sam


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Durbs
BRONZE Member since Sep 2001

Durbs

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Posted:The first post (Mine) which has now been turned into a full article was entirely based on actual proven results from experienced fire spinners (photos available on request smile )

I agree, alot of this thread turned into speculation which isn't helpful and is potentially dangerous hence the need for a good FAQ in the first place.


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darkpoet
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Posted:so then is this thread supposed to be a sticky?

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Durbs
BRONZE Member since Sep 2001

Durbs

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Posted:As in the post above ( wink ) it's been made into an article which is linked to from the Sticky FAQ...

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babaganouj
SILVER Member since Oct 2003

babaganouj

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Posted:This guy does firebreathing with different colors and sparkles. There are some good pictures on this site especially the green fire. He also has a lot of good informational links regarding the chemicals.

http://fire.ranchtronix.org/
br>
Enjoy.


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native
SILVER Member since Jun 2004

native

sleeping with angels
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Posted:its all right i have a bottle of lithium sitting in my desk.
yeah! it comes in handy to be nuts every know and then


SLEEP WITH ANGELS muckieha

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Danizona
BRONZE Member since May 2004

Danizona

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Location: Phoenix, Arizona, USA

Total posts: 3
Posted:Hello!

I did stumbled across a lamp oil supply company that offers colored lamp oil that produces colored flame. I was wondering if anyone has tried the colored lamp oil?

Thank you!


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darkpoet
BRONZE Member since May 2003

darkpoet

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Posted:just saying i wouldnt if I were you...it wont be actual lamp oil, the chemicals used to make these colors wont dissolve in any sort of oil..oil isnt a polar solvent.....so....might wanna talk to the company and get an msds on your so called "oil"

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Durbs
BRONZE Member since Sep 2001

Durbs

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Posted:There was some coloured candle oils for sale which came up for discussion... Try searching for "Candle Oil" in Seach (Link in my signature)

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JayKitty
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Posted:I asked my art teacher a while back to see a glaze catalog becasue I heard somewhere that many of the chemicals used are used in glazes. Sure enough most of the chemicals were in there. Go online and do a search for a glaze or pottery retailer, someone huge. They'd sell the chemicals. They come in 1 pound bags for pretty cheap.


-Hope it helps


Don't mind me, just passing through.

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