Forums > Social Discussion > Should we be calling these things Poi?
Login/Join to ParticipateDIAMOND Member
The Ministry of Manipulation
2,523 posts
Location: Bristol, United Kingdom
The Ministry of Manipulation
2,523 posts
Location: Bristol, United Kingdom
Posted:
Poi is a traditional maori dance and exercise, its part of their culture.
(for a start read : https://www.homeofpoi.com/history.htm
)
We swing things of glowing and firey-ness around on the ends of string, chains, or in some fabric.
It has NOTHING to do with that maori culture or with maori rituals or maori beliefs.
its a fundamental object, a thing on a string... so many differnt things: weapons and tools and toys from the past fit the description. (although they often were not used in pairs but some were, can anyone with knowleged of martial arts etc tell me please?)
a lot of folk call it fire chains, and some won't use the name poi- because they consider it disrespectful to maori culture.
So heres some more questions:
Should we be calling this poi? or are we just disrespectfully trampelling on maori culture?
Are all these things we use actually poi (using maori definintion)?
Is poi (maori def) the 2 objects or is it the dance - the way that they are used or both??
Where did the traveller/hippy/raver/youth culture craze for swinging things on fire or glowing come from?
I suspect that it has multiple origins and sources and i reckon it goes back more that 25 years ... what was it in the 50's 60's 70's and 80's HISTORY MAAAN?
I have a feeling that we have a lot to thank the club swingers and Indian club swinging exercises for, Schatz clubswinging book from 190x for clubswinging and even flag/poi-flags date back to at least 1933.
Soo many questions, I really would appreciate some input, thoughts, facts, history or even opinion on this one.
Smiles
A
Poi is a traditional maori dance and exercise, its part of their culture.
(for a start read : https://www.homeofpoi.com/history.htm
)
We swing things of glowing and firey-ness around on the ends of string, chains, or in some fabric.
It has NOTHING to do with that maori culture or with maori rituals or maori beliefs.
its a fundamental object, a thing on a string... so many differnt things: weapons and tools and toys from the past fit the description. (although they often were not used in pairs but some were, can anyone with knowleged of martial arts etc tell me please?)
a lot of folk call it fire chains, and some won't use the name poi- because they consider it disrespectful to maori culture.
So heres some more questions:
Should we be calling this poi? or are we just disrespectfully trampelling on maori culture?
Are all these things we use actually poi (using maori definintion)?
Is poi (maori def) the 2 objects or is it the dance - the way that they are used or both??
Where did the traveller/hippy/raver/youth culture craze for swinging things on fire or glowing come from?
I suspect that it has multiple origins and sources and i reckon it goes back more that 25 years ... what was it in the 50's 60's 70's and 80's HISTORY MAAAN?
I have a feeling that we have a lot to thank the club swingers and Indian club swinging exercises for, Schatz clubswinging book from 190x for clubswinging and even flag/poi-flags date back to at least 1933.
Soo many questions, I really would appreciate some input, thoughts, facts, history or even opinion on this one.
Smiles
A
veteran
1,359 posts
Location: London/ Surrey
1,359 posts
Location: London/ Surrey
Posted:
Perhaps it could be more accurately considered to be contemporary poi spinning? Many things (Although admittedly not rooted deeply in culture as poi is) carry the same name through various stages of evolution, modern R 'n' B is very different to the original rythym and blues artists, we have traditional and contemporary ballet, same for ballroom dancing I believe.
Although the term may need updating or clarifying, I think it might be more disrespectful to maori culture to change the name entirely and allow the roots of this performance art to be forgotten. I say give credit where it is due (as a scientist I try to make sure I quote my sources!), and acknowledge the inspiration behind our fire chains.
Perhaps it could be more accurately considered to be contemporary poi spinning? Many things (Although admittedly not rooted deeply in culture as poi is) carry the same name through various stages of evolution, modern R 'n' B is very different to the original rythym and blues artists, we have traditional and contemporary ballet, same for ballroom dancing I believe.
Although the term may need updating or clarifying, I think it might be more disrespectful to maori culture to change the name entirely and allow the roots of this performance art to be forgotten. I say give credit where it is due (as a scientist I try to make sure I quote my sources!), and acknowledge the inspiration behind our fire chains.
The optimist claims that we are living in the best of all possible worlds.
The pessimist fears this is true.
Always make time to play in the snow.
GOLD Member
addict
625 posts
Location: Aotearoa (NZ), New Zealand
addict
625 posts
Location: Aotearoa (NZ), New Zealand
Posted:
I think before you can come to any REAl conclusion about anything you should vastly research alot of sources and talk to alot of knowledgeable people.
Well you know im Maori and have strong veiws about this subject...but as far as im concerned you can call it what you want...all im saying is you should research it so you really know what it is...only then can you say what it isn't.
For example the poi most of the people do is *imo* about 80-90% traditional...so it all comes back to defining moves.
Other than that...you have to know Maori to know what it is not. Are you only judging (us/poi) on 1000 yrs ago or 2000 yrs ago or yesterday or today...because in my culture we have evolved and changed over a long time and we are hardly still the savages most people want to believe we are. We evolve daily and still invent new moves, to think our traditional poi has stagnated is ignorance. (We can be similar to the asians where we see something new and awsome and take it to evolve, not hold onto tradition blindly) *evoloution and growing is our tradition*
Back to the glowstrings and fire etc you should have read the book called "the rythm and life of poi" it is only 1 tribal view and each tribe has their own traditions and views but its extremely usefull...ie it talks about how, while performong in the 1960's a young Maori lady tied two tourch's onto string and performed in the USA, which COULD have been the birth of glowstring.
Anyway the ball is in your court to choose for yourself what you want to call it. I just think you should reseach good sources and alot of them because talking to just 1 Maori gurl wont cut it in my opinion.
As far as i know about fire, they trippy gypsies got down with the brothers smoked way to much
and saw the poi and though well add that to our breathing and staff and because they all had mucho respect for each other its was just the norm...nowdays people seem to have drifted form that way of life but who really knows that could just be some myth... but i thought it was a good source @ the time 
EDITED_BY: Taniwha7 (1081820520)
I think before you can come to any REAl conclusion about anything you should vastly research alot of sources and talk to alot of knowledgeable people.
Well you know im Maori and have strong veiws about this subject...but as far as im concerned you can call it what you want...all im saying is you should research it so you really know what it is...only then can you say what it isn't.
For example the poi most of the people do is *imo* about 80-90% traditional...so it all comes back to defining moves.
Other than that...you have to know Maori to know what it is not. Are you only judging (us/poi) on 1000 yrs ago or 2000 yrs ago or yesterday or today...because in my culture we have evolved and changed over a long time and we are hardly still the savages most people want to believe we are. We evolve daily and still invent new moves, to think our traditional poi has stagnated is ignorance. (We can be similar to the asians where we see something new and awsome and take it to evolve, not hold onto tradition blindly) *evoloution and growing is our tradition*
Back to the glowstrings and fire etc you should have read the book called "the rythm and life of poi" it is only 1 tribal view and each tribe has their own traditions and views but its extremely usefull...ie it talks about how, while performong in the 1960's a young Maori lady tied two tourch's onto string and performed in the USA, which COULD have been the birth of glowstring.
Anyway the ball is in your court to choose for yourself what you want to call it. I just think you should reseach good sources and alot of them because talking to just 1 Maori gurl wont cut it in my opinion.
As far as i know about fire, they trippy gypsies got down with the brothers smoked way to much
and saw the poi and though well add that to our breathing and staff and because they all had mucho respect for each other its was just the norm...nowdays people seem to have drifted form that way of life but who really knows that could just be some myth... but i thought it was a good source @ the time EDITED_BY: Taniwha7 (1081820520)
SILVER Member
Mumma Hen
6,391 posts
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Mumma Hen
6,391 posts
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Posted:
Yes we should be calling it poi...
I dont think that the maori would find it offending at any point.. If anything the kaumatua ( maori elders ) smile upon the fact that we are using the poi and bringing such a bright spirit to it.
Espically because so many of us respect its origins and credit them
Maori preformance always tells a story. The waiata a ringa (dancing with hand movement) tells a story depending on the hand movement. The same goes for poi. Each movement of the poi represnets certian things along with the interpretation of the words being sung. That is the difference between maori poi and our poi...
polythene puts it in a lovely way and I think that saying we are contemporary is great!
I really do feel that if there was a kapahaka (maori traditonal preformance ) group who was preforming, and one of the more comtempoary spinners were spinning at the same time that would be considered as rude and offensive. As our style of poi would be taking away from the story that they are telling with the poi.... But other than that I have been spinning in New Zealand and maori people have come up to me and said how fantastic it is and that they havent seen anything like it before, and then ask to play .... **HUGE SILLY GRINS** its just lovely
Yes we should be calling it poi...
I dont think that the maori would find it offending at any point.. If anything the kaumatua ( maori elders ) smile upon the fact that we are using the poi and bringing such a bright spirit to it.
Espically because so many of us respect its origins and credit them
Maori preformance always tells a story. The waiata a ringa (dancing with hand movement) tells a story depending on the hand movement. The same goes for poi. Each movement of the poi represnets certian things along with the interpretation of the words being sung. That is the difference between maori poi and our poi...
polythene puts it in a lovely way and I think that saying we are contemporary is great!
I really do feel that if there was a kapahaka (maori traditonal preformance ) group who was preforming, and one of the more comtempoary spinners were spinning at the same time that would be considered as rude and offensive. As our style of poi would be taking away from the story that they are telling with the poi.... But other than that I have been spinning in New Zealand and maori people have come up to me and said how fantastic it is and that they havent seen anything like it before, and then ask to play .... **HUGE SILLY GRINS** its just lovely
TAJ "boat mummy." VALURA "yes sweetie you went on a boat, was daddy there with you?" TAJ "no, but monkey on boat" VALURA "well then sweetie, Daddy WAS there with you"
BRONZE Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,749 posts
Location: Europe,Scotland,Both
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,749 posts
Location: Europe,Scotland,Both
Posted:
nice.
errm, I think i said this before, so ill quote me.
"language is defined by the peaple who use it"
aside from that, maybe its disrespectfull for me, a skinny white guy to play didge, but it dont stop some abbos giving me tips. As long as im not myself being disrespectfull, thats all. i can hardly help offence i dont mean, exept to apologise.
Later.
T
nice.
errm, I think i said this before, so ill quote me.
"language is defined by the peaple who use it"
aside from that, maybe its disrespectfull for me, a skinny white guy to play didge, but it dont stop some abbos giving me tips. As long as im not myself being disrespectfull, thats all. i can hardly help offence i dont mean, exept to apologise.
Later.
T
This is a post by tom, all spelling is deleberate
-><- Kallisti
SILVER Member
spiny norman
314 posts
Location: Cincinnati,damn it, USA
spiny norman
314 posts
Location: Cincinnati,damn it, USA
Posted:
i understand that were not doing poi for all the same reasons as the maori but there is now a poi culture that is somewhat seperate from the maoris but still very connected by a passion for and skill for poi, both cultures love poi for some reason or another, i think we should call them poi, but always respect what they mean to the maori, whenever someone asks me about them i tell them they are called poi and say that it was origanily created by the maori tribe of new zealand for dance and battle training, but is now practiced aroud the world by all different people as a form of dance and art, >>>>>luv
i understand that were not doing poi for all the same reasons as the maori but there is now a poi culture that is somewhat seperate from the maoris but still very connected by a passion for and skill for poi, both cultures love poi for some reason or another, i think we should call them poi, but always respect what they mean to the maori, whenever someone asks me about them i tell them they are called poi and say that it was origanily created by the maori tribe of new zealand for dance and battle training, but is now practiced aroud the world by all different people as a form of dance and art, >>>>>luv
if you think that our kiss was all in the lips, come on you got it all wrong man, and if you think that our dance was all in the hips then, oh well, do the twist -The White Stripes
GOLD Member
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
HOP Mad Doctor
13,925 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Posted:
So new-age poi is descended from traditional poi.
To say that new-age poi is disrespectful of the Maori is like saying that an aluminum canoe is disrespectful of the American Indians, or surfing on a fiberglass and graphite board is disrespectful of native Hawaiian culture.
What I do has nothing to do with what the Maori do. But the tools I use are called poi.
So new-age poi is descended from traditional poi.
To say that new-age poi is disrespectful of the Maori is like saying that an aluminum canoe is disrespectful of the American Indians, or surfing on a fiberglass and graphite board is disrespectful of native Hawaiian culture.
What I do has nothing to do with what the Maori do. But the tools I use are called poi.
-Mike
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella
A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura
AnonymousPLATINUM Member
Posted:
Have to say I agree with Mike on this one!
Have to say I agree with Mike on this one!
SILVER Member
Pooh-Bah
2,014 posts
Location: Galveston, TX, USA
Pooh-Bah
2,014 posts
Location: Galveston, TX, USA
Posted:
I completely agree, and was all set to post something along those same lines.
I completely agree, and was all set to post something along those same lines.
GOLD Member
just lost .... evil init
2,474 posts
Location: Adelaide, Australia
just lost .... evil init
2,474 posts
Location: Adelaide, Australia
Posted:
really? i thought Robert Heart invented it
i personally believe it all comes down to your intensions and attitudes, the wonderful thing about knowledge is that no body owns it, it just is, you could call it something else but that doesnt change the experience of the event for the individual
a rose and all that
as for the origins of traveller/hippy twirling the girl that inititally taught me learnt it about 10 years ago from what she referred to as the "fereal tribes" when she used to travel with them along the east coast of australia. to trace my twirling heritage
any further back than that is pretty much impossible, so i adopted the hop family tree of contact via video.
really? i thought Robert Heart invented it
i personally believe it all comes down to your intensions and attitudes, the wonderful thing about knowledge is that no body owns it, it just is, you could call it something else but that doesnt change the experience of the event for the individual
a rose and all that
as for the origins of traveller/hippy twirling the girl that inititally taught me learnt it about 10 years ago from what she referred to as the "fereal tribes" when she used to travel with them along the east coast of australia. to trace my twirling heritage
any further back than that is pretty much impossible, so i adopted the hop family tree of contact via video. Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourself, who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous and talented? Who are you NOT to be?
BRONZE Member
Corporate Circus Arts Entertainer
3,989 posts
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Corporate Circus Arts Entertainer
3,989 posts
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Posted:
Ditto...:)
Ditto...:)
HoP Posting Guidelines
* Is it the Truth?
* Is it Fair to all concerned?
* Will it build Goodwill and Better Friendships?
* Will it be Beneficial to all concerned?
110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
3,149 posts
Location: London
3,149 posts
Location: London
Posted:
[Old link]
i call them swingy balls anyhoo
[Old link]
i call them swingy balls anyhoo
"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."
NYC
9,232 posts
Location: NYC, NY, USA
9,232 posts
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Posted:
I was JUST thinking about this too!
I'm torn. Traditional 'Poi' has been so bastardized that it is clearly diverged from it's Maori origins. Then again, don't we name things based on their origins? And it does make me sad somehow that there are so many fire spinners who don't even KNOW the word 'Poi'.
I do, however, think that it is close enough to what the Maori's did to still maintain the name. It is still balls of fire on the end of a flexible 'chain'.
If someone who did not have any knowledge of fire spinning watched what I do and what a traditional maori dancer does, I think they would clearly see similarities. [Hey, those guys are both spinning large balls of fire on the end of chains.] The style is different, the purpose is different, the significance is different, the context is different, the training is different, but the core ACT of spinning fire is the same.
[Off to ponder further.]
I was JUST thinking about this too!
I'm torn. Traditional 'Poi' has been so bastardized that it is clearly diverged from it's Maori origins. Then again, don't we name things based on their origins? And it does make me sad somehow that there are so many fire spinners who don't even KNOW the word 'Poi'.
I do, however, think that it is close enough to what the Maori's did to still maintain the name. It is still balls of fire on the end of a flexible 'chain'.
If someone who did not have any knowledge of fire spinning watched what I do and what a traditional maori dancer does, I think they would clearly see similarities. [Hey, those guys are both spinning large balls of fire on the end of chains.] The style is different, the purpose is different, the significance is different, the context is different, the training is different, but the core ACT of spinning fire is the same.
[Off to ponder further.]
Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]
110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
3,149 posts
Location: London
3,149 posts
Location: London
Posted:
how about if they were watching glowstickers?
or nerds with socks?
(though, from what i've gathered, glowstickers don't generally consider themselves to be doing 'poi' anyway)
Quote:
If someone who did not have any knowledge of fire spinning watched what I do and what a traditional maori dancer does, I think they would clearly see similarities. [Hey, those guys are both spinning large balls of fire on the end of chains.]
how about if they were watching glowstickers?
or nerds with socks?
(though, from what i've gathered, glowstickers don't generally consider themselves to be doing 'poi' anyway)
"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."
NYC
9,232 posts
Location: NYC, NY, USA
9,232 posts
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Posted:
Well none of the online dictionaries were of any help... but the one in my local library has this definition:
poi: a small ball which is made typically of flax, grass, or rushes, to which a string of varying length is attached, and which is swing rythmically by Maori performers in various dances and songs.
Well, I'm not Maori, and my balls aren't made of grass but I still think it's close enough to what I do to call it 'poi'. With a definite understanding that what I do is not "traditional poi" by any means.
I'm still not sold though. I'd really have to learn more about what Maori define poi as.
Well none of the online dictionaries were of any help... but the one in my local library has this definition:
poi: a small ball which is made typically of flax, grass, or rushes, to which a string of varying length is attached, and which is swing rythmically by Maori performers in various dances and songs.
Well, I'm not Maori, and my balls aren't made of grass but I still think it's close enough to what I do to call it 'poi'. With a definite understanding that what I do is not "traditional poi" by any means.
I'm still not sold though. I'd really have to learn more about what Maori define poi as.
Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]
BRONZE Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,009 posts
Location: Bristol, UK
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,009 posts
Location: Bristol, UK
Posted:
I think people are getting fixated on the idea that what you do actually originated from Maori Poi. Chances are, unless you're from NZ, it didn't.
Long post for those interested... otherwise mayb skip to the last 3 paragraphs.
Although poi has been a part of Maori culture for centuries as Glass says - swinging something round on a string is a fundamental idea and exists in all cultures as a weapon, art form or a fidget (spinning a key chain is not called poi or an 'art'). So no one single person or culture can be credited with the idea of spinning things around in attractive patterns. You'll find people who say poi originated in lots of countries: NZ, Hawaii, Thailand, China (meteors), etc...
The names of the moves you learn do not stem from the Maori, who it seems often name moves after the animals they're meant to mimic. I learnt moves called "cross follow", "push through", "reel" which are all club swinging moves - which originated in India and was being practised when the British arrived to annex India (circa 1750). Although NZ was discovered by this time western colonization (and subsequent cultural interchange) did not truly begin until the 1820s.
A lot of the modern resurgence in poi/staff spining has been linked to the backpacker set, and a lot of people first see spinning on a travel, especially Thailand. Obviously backpacker hot spots are places where many cultures are merged and people have time to try out new ideas. Some of these back packers would be from NZ. Some would be jugglers and know club swinging. So it's impossible to say if either or both resulted in fire chains.
On a side note, but relevant, a person can only work from what they know. A flagger I once met in the US told me believed flagging started when hot young men took off their t-shirts to keep cool and then started playing with the t-shirts. However on the weekend Glass discovered a video from 1933 showing somebody spinning the British and American flags weighted with shot. As they were being spun by a 67 year old retired General we can assume that he was spinning for a good few years.
Also taking the above mentioned American Indian 'canoe' point raised above. How about if I called my dancing on the psy trance/breakbeat dancefloor an American Indian dance, say the Buffalo Dance. Is this right or accurate? The fundamental idea of dance is universal, but specifics are exactly that - specific.
In the same way poi are a specific Maori object used in specific styles of dance. From my understanding a Maori poi teacher will not teach you just the moves of poi without the attached dance. So to lay claim to the name for a similar, but not related, object is simply inaccurate, regardless of any personal or cultural considerations.
So, who'right? Where did what we call 'poi' originate? Everybody is to some extent right when they claim an origin as there does seem to be multiple origins. So conclusion I find that it is wrong to say that what you call poi originated from the Maori unless you can specifically trace your line of teachers to a Maori.
I still don't know what to call spinning props, but I do know that for quite a while (almost as long as I've been spinning) I've not been certain how to refer to my props or my hobby.
I think people are getting fixated on the idea that what you do actually originated from Maori Poi. Chances are, unless you're from NZ, it didn't.
Long post for those interested... otherwise mayb skip to the last 3 paragraphs.
Although poi has been a part of Maori culture for centuries as Glass says - swinging something round on a string is a fundamental idea and exists in all cultures as a weapon, art form or a fidget (spinning a key chain is not called poi or an 'art'). So no one single person or culture can be credited with the idea of spinning things around in attractive patterns. You'll find people who say poi originated in lots of countries: NZ, Hawaii, Thailand, China (meteors), etc...
The names of the moves you learn do not stem from the Maori, who it seems often name moves after the animals they're meant to mimic. I learnt moves called "cross follow", "push through", "reel" which are all club swinging moves - which originated in India and was being practised when the British arrived to annex India (circa 1750). Although NZ was discovered by this time western colonization (and subsequent cultural interchange) did not truly begin until the 1820s.
A lot of the modern resurgence in poi/staff spining has been linked to the backpacker set, and a lot of people first see spinning on a travel, especially Thailand. Obviously backpacker hot spots are places where many cultures are merged and people have time to try out new ideas. Some of these back packers would be from NZ. Some would be jugglers and know club swinging. So it's impossible to say if either or both resulted in fire chains.
On a side note, but relevant, a person can only work from what they know. A flagger I once met in the US told me believed flagging started when hot young men took off their t-shirts to keep cool and then started playing with the t-shirts. However on the weekend Glass discovered a video from 1933 showing somebody spinning the British and American flags weighted with shot. As they were being spun by a 67 year old retired General we can assume that he was spinning for a good few years.
Also taking the above mentioned American Indian 'canoe' point raised above. How about if I called my dancing on the psy trance/breakbeat dancefloor an American Indian dance, say the Buffalo Dance. Is this right or accurate? The fundamental idea of dance is universal, but specifics are exactly that - specific.
In the same way poi are a specific Maori object used in specific styles of dance. From my understanding a Maori poi teacher will not teach you just the moves of poi without the attached dance. So to lay claim to the name for a similar, but not related, object is simply inaccurate, regardless of any personal or cultural considerations.
So, who'right? Where did what we call 'poi' originate? Everybody is to some extent right when they claim an origin as there does seem to be multiple origins. So conclusion I find that it is wrong to say that what you call poi originated from the Maori unless you can specifically trace your line of teachers to a Maori.
I still don't know what to call spinning props, but I do know that for quite a while (almost as long as I've been spinning) I've not been certain how to refer to my props or my hobby.
NYC
9,232 posts
Location: NYC, NY, USA
9,232 posts
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Posted:
Though Dom, as far as I know, the Maori are the only group to have a very specific tradition of spinning a ball on the end of a string. The poi we spin DON'T resemble bolas or ball and chains or rope darts... they most resemble the traditional Maori poi spinning. Even if they don't decend directly from the Maori. I don't know any other organized art or dance that better parallels the spinning that we do.
Even though I don't spin "traditional maori poi" I do think that the resemblance is close enough to call my fire tools "poi".
Though Dom, as far as I know, the Maori are the only group to have a very specific tradition of spinning a ball on the end of a string. The poi we spin DON'T resemble bolas or ball and chains or rope darts... they most resemble the traditional Maori poi spinning. Even if they don't decend directly from the Maori. I don't know any other organized art or dance that better parallels the spinning that we do.
Even though I don't spin "traditional maori poi" I do think that the resemblance is close enough to call my fire tools "poi".
Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]
Pooh-Bah
2,364 posts
Location: austin,tx
2,364 posts
Location: austin,tx
Posted:
yup you were right, i do have something to say, and dom said most of it for me.
but this is getting tuffer for me. darnit, why you gotta make me think?
although i do think that i have less of a staunch opinion than when we spoke-after what has been said here- i still call my chains "chains" cause i've no idea what the maori poi dance movements are about. maybe if i did and there were similarities i would call them poi. i'm gonna visit taniwha someday and share our knowledge, maybe then... but, i belly dance and do theatrics while spinning chains. not the same thing!
i try to respect the beliefs of other native peoples. perhaps since i have cherokee blood in me it makes me overly sensitive... but...
an aluminum canoe is not the same as an "indian" canoe at all. one is form and product, the other is sacred and magickal. the tree was blessed and appreciated, the ancestors taught the carver how to do all the meditation and focus of intent that goes into a "canoe," and it itself has many meanings and archetypal undercurrents that the westerner has NO WAY of even fathoming short of taking off his tie and hopping into one with an injun for a while. whereas an aluminum canoe is cheap lightweight transportation. they look the same but that is only the surface. so yes and no- they are related but not the same. much the same goes for many traditional sacred things. look at tobacco!
my chain dance has it's own ritual. (unless i've been partying for 7 days and my buddy is leaving town
and buggin me to stumble around on fire )(still have scars BTW) so does maori. so they are related but not the same. to me, right now, the difference is large enough to merit a different title.
yup you were right, i do have something to say, and dom said most of it for me.
but this is getting tuffer for me. darnit, why you gotta make me think?
although i do think that i have less of a staunch opinion than when we spoke-after what has been said here- i still call my chains "chains" cause i've no idea what the maori poi dance movements are about. maybe if i did and there were similarities i would call them poi. i'm gonna visit taniwha someday and share our knowledge, maybe then... but, i belly dance and do theatrics while spinning chains. not the same thing!
i try to respect the beliefs of other native peoples. perhaps since i have cherokee blood in me it makes me overly sensitive... but...
an aluminum canoe is not the same as an "indian" canoe at all. one is form and product, the other is sacred and magickal. the tree was blessed and appreciated, the ancestors taught the carver how to do all the meditation and focus of intent that goes into a "canoe," and it itself has many meanings and archetypal undercurrents that the westerner has NO WAY of even fathoming short of taking off his tie and hopping into one with an injun for a while. whereas an aluminum canoe is cheap lightweight transportation. they look the same but that is only the surface. so yes and no- they are related but not the same. much the same goes for many traditional sacred things. look at tobacco!
my chain dance has it's own ritual. (unless i've been partying for 7 days and my buddy is leaving town
and buggin me to stumble around on fire )(still have scars BTW) so does maori. so they are related but not the same. to me, right now, the difference is large enough to merit a different title. -Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.
GOLD Member
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posted:
I suspect Maori poi performance is completely different to what most of us do with poi. In reality, what we are doing is Indian club swinging moves with poi. This is evident in the traditional names like fountain, weave, waist wrap etc. that we still use today.
The British military incorporated club swinging from India into their training, at the time of the British Raj. From there it travelled to Europe and eventually the US.
I don't think it's just "the traveller/hippy/raver/youth culture" that is craze for swinging things on fire or glowing. I think it is primal. In his club swinging book published in 1908, Mr Schatz gives instructions for preparing fire torches and suggests that electric lights in or on clubs can be used if current is available. There is an old (~1900) advertising photo on the net somewhere that shows a set of clubs ready to plug in to a power point.
In his Book of Club Swinging, Ben Richter says that the earliest pictures of club swinging go back to the ancient Romans and Greeks athletics training for the Olympic games.
I suspect Maori poi performance is completely different to what most of us do with poi. In reality, what we are doing is Indian club swinging moves with poi. This is evident in the traditional names like fountain, weave, waist wrap etc. that we still use today.
The British military incorporated club swinging from India into their training, at the time of the British Raj. From there it travelled to Europe and eventually the US.
I don't think it's just "the traveller/hippy/raver/youth culture" that is craze for swinging things on fire or glowing. I think it is primal. In his club swinging book published in 1908, Mr Schatz gives instructions for preparing fire torches and suggests that electric lights in or on clubs can be used if current is available. There is an old (~1900) advertising photo on the net somewhere that shows a set of clubs ready to plug in to a power point.
In his Book of Club Swinging, Ben Richter says that the earliest pictures of club swinging go back to the ancient Romans and Greeks athletics training for the Olympic games.
If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh
GOLD Member
addict
674 posts
Location: Ohio, USA
addict
674 posts
Location: Ohio, USA
Posted:
First off, I agree with calling them poi for all the reasons people have mentioned.
That said, it never occured to me that Maori styles were different. Is there any kind of resource for someone who wants to learn more about the traditional Maori dance / style? Not meaning to be disrespectful or anything, but I'd kind of like to learn that style / dance as well.
First off, I agree with calling them poi for all the reasons people have mentioned.
That said, it never occured to me that Maori styles were different. Is there any kind of resource for someone who wants to learn more about the traditional Maori dance / style? Not meaning to be disrespectful or anything, but I'd kind of like to learn that style / dance as well.
BRONZE Member
Returning to a unique state of Equilibrium
3,289 posts
Location: Adelaide, South Australia
Returning to a unique state of Equilibrium
3,289 posts
Location: Adelaide, South Australia
Posted:
A few things;
I saw a Traditional Maori Poi dancer performing just before Salmonela Dub, and she made rhythms by bouncing the poi off her body in a very systematic and repetitive manner. It was wicked, but nothing like anything I've seen people do with what we call poi. I also saw her jamming with long poi and She was doing heaps of the moves that most people do - although there was no element of contortion - ie no technical at all. Now I dont suggest that this one girl was the be all and end all, but she obviously knew what she was doing in terms of Traditional Poi - and she was loving what we would call chains or like.
--
While club swinging was very very popular in the early 1900's it had almost completely died out by the 40s in its traditional club swinging guise (last in the Olympics in 1932). It was revived by a guy who was a professional object manipulator (Mushie Pea Steve knows who this guy is - but I cant remmeber his name) who mustve dug up the original Schatz manual, or equivalent manuscript. There have been references to this bloke's video, so I'm assuming he was around in the 80's (what video was around before then?).
Brian Jube republished the Schatz Book in 1990, and Anna Jillings followed it with another offerring in 1994. Ben Richters book came out around the same time. How much time did it take for these people to recognise that they knew enough stuff (or that there was enough interest) about club swinging to write a book? I'm guessing a few years, which takes us back to about 1985-1988.
can anyone present any evidence that the club swinging Renaissance began earlier than that?
I would have thought the travelling poi thing would have been in circulation for sure by that time. So unless someone can clarify when Club Swinging experienced its resurgence (if you could call it that) I think there are problems with saying it came before poi.
I think that what most people do with poi these days could be called contemporary poi-after all traditionally they werent just used in strict dances, they were also used for building strength, as weapons, and for coordination.
I think that the influence of club swinging naming systems while undeniable, cant be used as the primary support for the argument that what we do is decended from club swinging. This could very well be another example of where something with difficult traditional names has been rebadged to make learning easier on english speaking practitioners, much in the same way that many martial arts dont use the original oriental names for techniques - instead using names like 'roundhouse kick' instead of the traditional name for the technique (I dont know it), even tho the technique and application are exactly the same.
I think its very interesting tho, and I reckon theres a good chance I'm missing some critical parts of the puzzle
If I thought that I was disrespecting Maori culture by calling it poi, I wouldnt call lit poi - but from what Ive read on this site, the majority of traditional Maori poi spinners arent offended, if anything they are happy that the poi joy is being spread. as long as its credited.
so I guess at the end of all this I feel that renaming it 'chains' isnt doing justice to the heritage of what we are doing, in that the movements of long poi as done by maori people are in fact very similar.
and why would anyone have ever bothered putting down the clubs and taking up poi if it werent for the Maori influence?
I'll find out for sure when I visit NZ I hope!
Josh
EDITED_BY: Josh (1082297994)
A few things;
I saw a Traditional Maori Poi dancer performing just before Salmonela Dub, and she made rhythms by bouncing the poi off her body in a very systematic and repetitive manner. It was wicked, but nothing like anything I've seen people do with what we call poi. I also saw her jamming with long poi and She was doing heaps of the moves that most people do - although there was no element of contortion - ie no technical at all. Now I dont suggest that this one girl was the be all and end all, but she obviously knew what she was doing in terms of Traditional Poi - and she was loving what we would call chains or like.
--
While club swinging was very very popular in the early 1900's it had almost completely died out by the 40s in its traditional club swinging guise (last in the Olympics in 1932). It was revived by a guy who was a professional object manipulator (Mushie Pea Steve knows who this guy is - but I cant remmeber his name) who mustve dug up the original Schatz manual, or equivalent manuscript. There have been references to this bloke's video, so I'm assuming he was around in the 80's (what video was around before then?).
Brian Jube republished the Schatz Book in 1990, and Anna Jillings followed it with another offerring in 1994. Ben Richters book came out around the same time. How much time did it take for these people to recognise that they knew enough stuff (or that there was enough interest) about club swinging to write a book? I'm guessing a few years, which takes us back to about 1985-1988.
can anyone present any evidence that the club swinging Renaissance began earlier than that?
I would have thought the travelling poi thing would have been in circulation for sure by that time. So unless someone can clarify when Club Swinging experienced its resurgence (if you could call it that) I think there are problems with saying it came before poi.
I think that what most people do with poi these days could be called contemporary poi-after all traditionally they werent just used in strict dances, they were also used for building strength, as weapons, and for coordination.
I think that the influence of club swinging naming systems while undeniable, cant be used as the primary support for the argument that what we do is decended from club swinging. This could very well be another example of where something with difficult traditional names has been rebadged to make learning easier on english speaking practitioners, much in the same way that many martial arts dont use the original oriental names for techniques - instead using names like 'roundhouse kick' instead of the traditional name for the technique (I dont know it), even tho the technique and application are exactly the same.
I think its very interesting tho, and I reckon theres a good chance I'm missing some critical parts of the puzzle
If I thought that I was disrespecting Maori culture by calling it poi, I wouldnt call lit poi - but from what Ive read on this site, the majority of traditional Maori poi spinners arent offended, if anything they are happy that the poi joy is being spread. as long as its credited.
so I guess at the end of all this I feel that renaming it 'chains' isnt doing justice to the heritage of what we are doing, in that the movements of long poi as done by maori people are in fact very similar.
and why would anyone have ever bothered putting down the clubs and taking up poi if it werent for the Maori influence?
I'll find out for sure when I visit NZ I hope!
Josh
EDITED_BY: Josh (1082297994)
--
Help! My personality got stuck in this signature machine and I cant get it out!
GOLD Member
Self-Flagellation Expert
3,414 posts
Location: Bogged at CG, Australia
Self-Flagellation Expert
3,414 posts
Location: Bogged at CG, Australia
Posted:
Ok, My two cents again. Please note that this is at 4am local time, and therefore may not be wxceptionally coherent and/or spelt correctly and/or without typos.
Personally, i think that poi is much like dance. In a way, it is a dance, but anywho.
Inasmuch, not all dances are alike, nor even similar. some, however, are. Yet they are still all called dances. Again, not all languages are alike, most are vastly different. but these too, have some that are very close. And yet, they are all languages.
This is the view i look at poi with. The movements, actions and ideas that relate to, and make up, the dancing i do with fire about my head, were mostly, if not entirely, based upon the maori dances. In this, too, some of it is alike, and some is radically different. I really dont think that people would have tried 4 beat hyperloops with eggs, but you never know. Anyway, back to my point. What i, and many other poi artists do, is similar in some ways, yet different in others, to the traditional maori poi. I, however, still think that it all comes under the heading of poi.
I'll take this a step further. If, to relieve/prevent disrespect to the maori people, we need to differentiate modern poi from traditional poi, why dont we just do that? I'll call what i do modern, contemprary, or even european poi, and i'll call what the maori do tradtional, original, Maori, or even non-european poi. Sure, a lot of people wouldnt call my attempts poi at all, but thats my bad, and just shows i need to keep practising.
Personally, when i talk of poi, i do so with no disrespect to the Maori people or culture. Again, and this is entirely myself talking, based on my own principles, if my family was to start doing something out of the ordinary, and many people copied that, changed it a little, and kept the name, i'd be honoured. Just like i am in no way offended by modern rock groups playing bagpipes (Im half scots). 5 bucks says they arent made of tradtional materials, and they sure as heck arent playing traditional songs, but hey, the idea, the thought is there.
Let me know if anythings a little disjointed. I'll fix it up when im a little more awake.
PS. No disrespect is intended by the non-capitalisation of Maori a few times in there.
Ok, My two cents again. Please note that this is at 4am local time, and therefore may not be wxceptionally coherent and/or spelt correctly and/or without typos.
Personally, i think that poi is much like dance. In a way, it is a dance, but anywho.
Inasmuch, not all dances are alike, nor even similar. some, however, are. Yet they are still all called dances. Again, not all languages are alike, most are vastly different. but these too, have some that are very close. And yet, they are all languages.
This is the view i look at poi with. The movements, actions and ideas that relate to, and make up, the dancing i do with fire about my head, were mostly, if not entirely, based upon the maori dances. In this, too, some of it is alike, and some is radically different. I really dont think that people would have tried 4 beat hyperloops with eggs, but you never know. Anyway, back to my point. What i, and many other poi artists do, is similar in some ways, yet different in others, to the traditional maori poi. I, however, still think that it all comes under the heading of poi.
I'll take this a step further. If, to relieve/prevent disrespect to the maori people, we need to differentiate modern poi from traditional poi, why dont we just do that? I'll call what i do modern, contemprary, or even european poi, and i'll call what the maori do tradtional, original, Maori, or even non-european poi. Sure, a lot of people wouldnt call my attempts poi at all, but thats my bad, and just shows i need to keep practising.
Personally, when i talk of poi, i do so with no disrespect to the Maori people or culture. Again, and this is entirely myself talking, based on my own principles, if my family was to start doing something out of the ordinary, and many people copied that, changed it a little, and kept the name, i'd be honoured. Just like i am in no way offended by modern rock groups playing bagpipes (Im half scots). 5 bucks says they arent made of tradtional materials, and they sure as heck arent playing traditional songs, but hey, the idea, the thought is there.
Let me know if anythings a little disjointed. I'll fix it up when im a little more awake.
PS. No disrespect is intended by the non-capitalisation of Maori a few times in there.
"beg beg grovel beg grovel"
"master"
--FSA
"There was an arse there, i couldn't help myself"
--Rougie
GOLD Member
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Stream Entrant
2,829 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posted:
Hi Josh, good points. I was trying to say there are parallels in other disciplines, like club swinging for example, or people crossing over from things like callisthenics.
Poi, I'm told came from the harvesting of Taro. Chronologically, it's been suggested that first there was The Rock, then The Club, followed by the Single Ball Bola (Bola Perdida), which was believed to have been used by primitive man more than 50,000 years ago. Rhys Thomas (The Meteor Book) says the use of Chinese meteor as a performance art originated from a bola like weapon ~ 1500 years.
Then, other avenues of continuity of these fiery arts would be through circus. Rhys Thomas (The Meteor Book) learnt a routine called Revolving Fire Bowls from a booklet on fire eating by Bruno Nolo, the incombustible Australian body builder.
Hi Josh, good points. I was trying to say there are parallels in other disciplines, like club swinging for example, or people crossing over from things like callisthenics.
Poi, I'm told came from the harvesting of Taro. Chronologically, it's been suggested that first there was The Rock, then The Club, followed by the Single Ball Bola (Bola Perdida), which was believed to have been used by primitive man more than 50,000 years ago. Rhys Thomas (The Meteor Book) says the use of Chinese meteor as a performance art originated from a bola like weapon ~ 1500 years.
Then, other avenues of continuity of these fiery arts would be through circus. Rhys Thomas (The Meteor Book) learnt a routine called Revolving Fire Bowls from a booklet on fire eating by Bruno Nolo, the incombustible Australian body builder.
If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh
GOLD Member
old hand
920 posts
Location: New Zealand
old hand
920 posts
Location: New Zealand
Posted:
I always thought poi was a graphical representation of Pi with a circle in the middle
I always thought poi was a graphical representation of Pi with a circle in the middle
Spherculism ~:~ The Act of becoming Spherculish.
GOLD Member
.
420 posts
Location: United Kingdom
.
420 posts
Location: United Kingdom
Posted:
ingeneous!
Quote:
I always thought poi was a graphical representation of Pi with a circle in the middle
ingeneous! member
54 posts
Location: vodka-country... and it's VERY COLD here
54 posts
Location: vodka-country... and it's VERY COLD here
Posted:
call it "new school"
call it "new school"
when it gets colder that -25, you don't really care
member
190 posts
190 posts
Posted:
Many things in our language have nothing to do with the words derivation. It's how language grows.
I really don't like the idea of artificially hijacking established language to make it politically correct.
Many things in our language have nothing to do with the words derivation. It's how language grows.
I really don't like the idea of artificially hijacking established language to make it politically correct.
Pooh-Bah
2,364 posts
Location: austin,tx
2,364 posts
Location: austin,tx
Posted:
established? by whom?
established? by whom?
-Such a price the gods exact for song: to become what we sing
-Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-When the center of the storm does not move, you are in its path.
member
64 posts
Location: Samos-Piraeus-Athens_Greece
64 posts
Location: Samos-Piraeus-Athens_Greece
Posted:
I think that word poi is used to declare all the swinging situation.It might be fire-chains or tennisballs or socks.So since we all understand what we mean by saying poi it is fine with me and it is good to name it poi.Every language has many mistakes such as words that are not grammaticly correct e.t.c. These words and terms and stuff like that are the evolution of languages.So what is importand is that we all understand when we say POI what we mean.Moreover since swinging is related with that maori word I believe that yeap we should call it Poi...
many many many kisses 2 all
I think that word poi is used to declare all the swinging situation.It might be fire-chains or tennisballs or socks.So since we all understand what we mean by saying poi it is fine with me and it is good to name it poi.Every language has many mistakes such as words that are not grammaticly correct e.t.c. These words and terms and stuff like that are the evolution of languages.So what is importand is that we all understand when we say POI what we mean.Moreover since swinging is related with that maori word I believe that yeap we should call it Poi...
many many many kisses 2 all
The only thing constant in life is change...
member
190 posts
190 posts
Posted:
Arashi do a search for the word poi on this forum and maybe you will get my point.
Arashi do a search for the word poi on this forum and maybe you will get my point.
SILVER Member
spiny norman
314 posts
Location: Cincinnati,damn it, USA
spiny norman
314 posts
Location: Cincinnati,damn it, USA
Posted:
if we stoped calling it poi what website would we all be on right now?
if we stoped calling it poi what website would we all be on right now?
if you think that our kiss was all in the lips, come on you got it all wrong man, and if you think that our dance was all in the hips then, oh well, do the twist -The White Stripes
© 1998 - 2024 Home of Poi
All prices converted to United States dollars using XE.com