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BEZERKER
BEZERKER

enthusiast

Member Since: 29th Apr 2001
Total posts: 237
Posted:Having always been in to martial arts movies from various sources I always used to have a favorite being Bloodsport with Jean-Claude Van Damme. I kind of dug the idea of a competition where various martial artists pitted their skills against each other in competion to prove what/who was the greatest.



Growing up I also was never that in to Boxing or Kick boxing per se however never thought they were barbaric - just not my cup of tea.



About 18 months ago on Pay TV in OZ they had some high light shows of the UFC (Ultimate Fighting Championship) in the states. For those of you who don't know this is an event held in an octagon shaped 'ring' with powder coated caging rather than ropes like a traditional boxing ring. It is based on the idea of 'No Holds Barred' fighting where instead of just boxing or kick boxing you are allowed to grapple and take down opponents and use more wrestling based fighting arts - devolped from Vale Tudo (Anything goes) competitions from Brazil -though it was in the first Olympics and call Pankration. Initially the UFC started with VERY few rules allowing groin strikes, hair pulling etc -the only way to win being KO or submission. The first winner of this event (and most dominant) was a Brazilian Jiu Jitsu praticioner named Royce Gracie who won without (virtually) having to strike at all and only use submission type moves. It was very style based ie. Karate vs Kung Fu etc.



It has evolved from it's beginnings 10 years ago to having weight divisions (early on there were fights between 600 lb guys and 180 lb guys!) and having quite a few rules added without losing the ultimate spirit of the competition. Also fighters must become well versed in all styles of fighting to be successful even though there are still specialists. Needless to say I am a fan ubbloco which is odd because I hate being involved in violence of any sort but do love traditional martial arts having praticed some myself. This also fulfilled my dream of a real life 'Bloodsport' type scenario - without the death, theatrics and Chong Li ("Bery good. But brick...not....fight.....back)



ANYWAY my question relates to fire arts/juggling pratitioners and their opinions on this kind of competition be it boxing or MMA (mixed martial arts). Does it have a place in society? Do you consider it barbaric or competion at it most pure? - considering all sport can really be based on one on one combat with different mediums (like tennis raquets for eg). Should we be able to move beyond this kind of entertainment as a path of human evolution? Do you see people/fans who either participate or watch these kinds of events as being unintelligent or violent?



Just curious to get a vibe from this part of the world/life (the arts) and see what some of the peacniks (as Raymond Phule was once so fond of calling some of us) have to say on the state of combat sports as entertainment.



beerchug


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Pyrolific
Returning to a unique state of Equilibrium
Location: Adelaide, South Australia
Member Since: 10th Jan 2001
Total posts: 3288
Posted:Yo whats up Bezerker! smile

havent seen you for a while- hope your doin good.

I've done a bit of martial arts myself, which I enjoyed imensely. I especially enjoyed sparring although I only ever did non-contact and semi-contact, none of the KO stuff. I guess I like the theory of it, but I cant help noticing the attitudes of many of the people involved - and that turns me off. So yeah, in theory I dont see anything wrong with it - after all, power and competition form a big part of our everyday life, and this stuff just takes it to a very physical and overt level. However it does also bring with it in a lot of cases bad attitudes and lack of respect - something I think that is really lacking in many dojos.

Anyhow - I dont think you can seperate the institution of martial arts from the people creating it, and therefore I have a problem with it.

erm and as entertainment? I dont think people should be watching TV anyhow wink

hmm confused? so am I smile

Josh


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bender
still can't believe it's not butter
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Member Since: 14th Nov 2001
Total posts: 6979
Posted:my capo mestre always told me it was enough to 'show the movement' it was always fun and i never had to hurt no-none (intentionally)
It's a choice i guess, and i choose not to have revel in causing hurt.
because you have the ability to hurt others for fun does not mean that you should, methinks. peace


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onewheeldave
Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield
Member Since: 28th Aug 2002
Total posts: 3252
Posted:The good thing about ultimate/cage fighting, and the 'realistic combat' styles that preceeded it, is that it challenges a lot of the unrealistic aspects that were/are common in traditional martial arts.

Whilst it is a good attitude that traditional martial artists don't feel the need to prove their skills, the fact remains that most of them would not fare well against an opponent experienced in one of the realistic styles.

The bad thing about ultimate/cage fighting is that it is brutal and can lead to serious injuries.

I think there are two major aspects to martial arts, the martial aspect i.e. fighting realistically, and the 'art' aspect i.e. health, spiritual, aesthetical.

Some traditional martial arts are very beautiful, but of little use in real fighting. Tai chi is an obvious example of this (although proponents would argue that, if practised deeply enough, and for long enough, it is very effective in combat. However, the amount of decades necessary to achieve that, make it, in effect, impractical for fighting with).

Others are effective, but lack the 'art' aspects. Examples are boxing, which, despite the fact that it lacks grappling, kicks etc, because practice is geared to contact situations and trainees get well used to being hit, is considered very effective for real life situations. Similarly with Thai boxing. Cage fighting is perhaps the best example of this type.

In the past I was very interested in martial arts and trained in several. Defects in the combat effectiveness of many karate practices were apparent quite early on, and reinforced by a lot of what I read in articles by martial artists whose lives involved real violence and the ability to deal effectively with it (doormen/security personel etc).

After going through karate, wing chun, aikido etc, I ended up doing a year of Thai boxing, which, although obviously quite effective, was hard, painful, carried a risk of serious injury, and lacked the 'art' aspect.

I came to question the value of being able to fight as, for all of my adult life, any situation that could have become violent, I had managed to resolve without it getting physical.

It was also apparent that engaging in any form of practice that would be genuinely useful in a real fight, would probably result in regular injuries.

The unfortunate truth is that if a fight goes beyond the first punch, then it becomes a contest of brutality in which you're going to get hit and kicked, in the head, face and body really hard. If your training doesn't involve that kind of contact, then you won't last long against someone who is used to taking that kind of treatment.

I realised that, all along, what had appealed to me about martial arts, wasn't the fighting, but the skill, control and bodily mastery that lie behind it- so I got into spinning smile


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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bender
still can't believe it's not butter
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Member Since: 14th Nov 2001
Total posts: 6979
Posted:with respect to martial arts, being realistic went out the door jsut as soon as we entered the gunpowder age.
How realistic is a double-kick against a 9mm?
i see your point tho - there are levels of reslism that do not match amongst codes. peace
take care


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Posted:Quote:
with respect to martial arts, being realistic went out the door jsut as soon as we entered the gunpowder age.
How realistic is a double-kick against a 9mm?


Sorry Bender, but how often are you going to face a 9mm? You are much more likely to face someone trying to punch you in the face. Especially in Australia.

I find this to be an interesting topic. As someone who has trained both in combat sports and martial arts for the majority of my life. That and the fact that I have both worked the door and currently work private security. Too often I think people subjugate their natural right to defend themselves thru either deciding to give up due to believing its futile, ie. guns are superior. Or they believe that nice people don't fight back, ie. peaceniks! The fact is that even peaceful animals will fight when their life is in danger.
And if you are in the situation where you have a three hundred pound [censored] trying to rape your sister, would you rather know how to choke him out or discuss Ghandi with him?
Cheers!
Patrick

P.S. On a side note. One of my buddhist teachers once told me that sometimes the most compassionate thing you can do is give someone a clout on the side of the head.


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Puk
Puk

Sweet talented nutter
Location: Brisbane Oz
Member Since: 3rd Aug 2002
Total posts: 2615
Posted:Mr badger you acctually spot on there ! .

I beleive myself to be peacefull type person

But attack me i'll attack back .

There's only one time where i ran (that was away from 5 homeboy's with knives ).


that shrewd and knavish sprite

Called Robin Good Fellow ; are you not he that is frighten of the maidens of the villagery - fairy

I am the merry wander of the night -puk

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bender
still can't believe it's not butter
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Member Since: 14th Nov 2001
Total posts: 6979
Posted:Quote:
Quote:
with respect to martial arts, being realistic went out the door jsut as soon as we entered the gunpowder age.
How realistic is a double-kick against a 9mm?


Sorry Bender, but how often are you going to face a 9mm? You are much more likely to face someone trying to punch you in the face. Especially in Australia.



sorry mate, my point is that is is naive to hold any pretentions about realism amongst martial arts. we do not live in an age where everyday you will face kicks OR guns.
it would be a sad sad world if we expected to.

also, Buddhism is not about violence. ubblove


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Posted:Well Buddhism is about facing reality! Unfortunatlely a lot of the history of Buddhism involves violence. Its a pretence to assume otherwise! umm

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Rouge Dragon
Rouge Dragon

Insert Champagne Here
Location: without class distinction
Member Since: 21st Jul 2003
Total posts: 13215
Posted:i feel there is a place in society for martial arts...as a protective measure. (and also for general fitness which is why i have an interest in it, but thats not really the point here)



i am essentially against violence. and i hate to see it as a sport. thats not to say i dont like judo (for example) as a sport, however judo isnt practised in a violent way. martial arts can be practised in a non-violent way.



but i do see martial arts as important for personal security. particularly as a young female i would like to have some skills in some form of self protection (but anyone who knows me would know i have no time for this)



but using martial arts as bloodsport is against (what i thought was) the principles of the sports to begin with - inner harmony and defense



which reminds me...karate evolved as personal defence in Okinawa because ordinary citizens weren't allowed to own weapons, but they needed a way to defend themselves



my apologies for this being so random and not well composed.i might post a more constructed one some other time



edited: because when i read my japanese text book, i forgwet everything 2 seconds later!

EDITED_BY: Rouge Dragon (1081924736)


i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...

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bender
still can't believe it's not butter
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Member Since: 14th Nov 2001
Total posts: 6979
Posted:Quote:
Well Buddhism is about facing reality! Unfortunatlely a lot of the history of Buddhism involves violence. Its a pretence to assume otherwise! umm


confused beerchug


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Pyrolific
Returning to a unique state of Equilibrium
Location: Adelaide, South Australia
Member Since: 10th Jan 2001
Total posts: 3288
Posted:I think that the base asumption that one-on-one, no surprise attack is the way its going to go in a defense situation is a joke - however thats what the majority of martial arts I know of spend the most time on. Its far more likely an unavoidable situation will evolve where its not one-on-one, where its not a wide open space and where there may be weapons involved. This is what I think is unrealistic about martial arts, especially ring based one on one types.

My mother always said that it doesnt matter how tough you are if you dont know its coming.

Josh





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Gnor
Gnor

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Perth
Member Since: 31st Mar 2003
Total posts: 5814
Posted:Chap I spoke to last night would agree with your mum Josh.

He was defending against two infront of him and the ones behind hit him in the head with a steel rod.


Is it the Truth?
Is it Fair to all concerned?
Will it build Goodwill and Better Friendships?
Will it be Beneficial to all concerned?

Im in a lonely battle with the world with a fish to match the chip on my shoulder. Gnu in Binnu in a cnu

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BEZERKER
BEZERKER

enthusiast

Member Since: 29th Apr 2001
Total posts: 237
Posted:*looks around thread and mostly sees Aussies answering a post about "havin' a blue"*

hmmmmm. smile

Let me reply by saying one of my favorite lines "I'm a pacifist living in a violent world". Do I want to fight? No. If someone wants to fight me and it can't be avoided do I want to take them out? Yes. I'll never look for voilence however it has found me a couple of times. frown

Josh - good to read you smile I'm doing well, hope the same for you. I'm the same as you, never really done full contact sparring however got a real buzz out of testing (in a fast paced way) some of the techniques I'd learnt. Also agree on some A-holes treating training as a place to see how much they can intimidate/hurt people without having a street fight and not respecting people different training requirements. I agree about most martial arts focusing on one on one, no surprise type scenarios. Always praticing defending ONE straight punch to your chest rather than against someone REALLY charging in to you. Sparring is still the best though - great fun too when the spirit of the environment is pure ie. no anger based aggression.

Bender - I love your choice to not revel in causing hurt. For me I think this is why I couldn't be a fighter (for sport/money). I really don't have that kind of anger to switch on for the purpose of just causing pain and wanting to win (now on a basketball court, that's a different matter smile). Re the 9mm thing, I guess you've got to try and cover what you can. If someone pulls a 9 you just kiss their arse and give them whatever they want until that perfect moment for engaging your 'Matrix style' slo mo disarming technique before popping caps in to crook #1 and executing a scorpion kick to crook #2.......oops hang on, got a little carried away there.

onewheeldave - It's interesting reading comments on MMA bulletin boards about how these guys think that BJJ (Brazilian Jiu Jitsu) is the most effective form in the world considering it is primarily a ground fighting style and the LAST place I'd want to be on the street is on the ground being attacked. What cage fighting/Vale Tudo has done is shown what can really be applied one on one and what is ultimately over rated. Ultimately cross-training and being ready for as many different kinds of attacks as possible and cage fighting has highlighted this as a flaw with most TMA (traditional martial arts). What does someone purely doing Karate know about defending someone who is going to try and clinch with you and do a single foot take down before dislocating their shoulder?

But as we all know the chances of a controlled one one fight experince are virtually nil (for me personally) because if a guy wants to fight me I'll avoid it. My personal choice for martial arts training is Ninjitsu, classes can have an element of multiple attacker scenarios where fast dispatching of opponents and movement are practised to try and maximise reaction time and at least *some* familiarity with such a scenario. Being able to take 1 or 2 people out before beating a hasty retreat may be all it takes. Does this mean I can take down 3 dudes and look like Jackie Chan? Unfortunately not ubbloco but hey got to try something smile

I guess the personal choice of which art to choose is personal. I didn't mind the conditioning aspects of Muay Thai but found it too one dimensional (or ring focused) for my taste though there is no denying it's effectiveness. Tai Chi for me isn't a goer - I use spinning for my movement/health (even though I've been a little slack lately).

Patrick King of the Badgers - You make the exact point I believe in. I used to have endless debate with an old girlfriend of mine who was in to Vipassna meditation who said she wasn't convinced that any person should be touched in an intentionally violent way. I believe that most conflict can be avoided (not necessarily in your line of work though wink) but there are always going to situations occuring all over the world where the choice to stand and fight has to be made. We had to agree to disagree. What styles have you trained in and what combination do you find to be effective for your job? - many would say the standard Muay Thai/Boxing/BJJ combo.

Rouge Dragon - I understand your stance. For something to be effective as a form of personal security it would have to be tested IMO. Without (inparticular) MMA we'd never see what can be effective. It's always up to the individual too. I'm willing to bet what would work for you in getting away from an assailant mightn't necessarily work for me (I'm a chubby dude and you're a lady - can't speculate on size smile). Whilst I won't say "Thank goodness bloodsports show us what works, how noble of them" without people testing them you could spend a lot of time buying hype surround one style or another without someone showing what works and what to keep in mind.


Something I'll add as well is that at UFC events there will be basically 2 types of people. Mullet sporting rednecks full of piss who love the WWE as well AND fans who really appreciate all styles and enjoy the competition. The first guys will boo unless the guys are stand up fighters really slugging it out the other appreciate a hard fought fight that involves hardly any striking AS WELL as the other fight. These sports seemed to be mailigned by the loud obnoxious idiots.

Thanks guys, just the kind of cool conversation I expected from people in this place.


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Dunc
Dunc

playing the days away
Location: The Middle lands
Member Since: 19th Aug 2003
Total posts: 7263
Posted:*How do I feel about Combat sports?*



They're a sport, all can enter who are aware of and accept the risks they take. There should be no social impedence on them as it is only those who enter who carry the risk of injuries. The focus should be on education beforehand and it all being legal and above board....ie nobody being forced into fights/events etc.



Quote:
fact remains that most of them would not fare well against an opponent experienced in one of the realistic styles





I don't think so Dave, 1 highly trained Martial Artist vs some half trained boxer sure, but that counts the same for a highly trained boxer vs a lower skilled martial artist etc. I've seen a few martial arts practisioners taken down and beaten to a pulp by a rough arsed street fighter in Ultimate Fighter and vise versa, but the best of one art against the best of another would be an exciting and thrilling bout regardless of their discipline, one which I wouldn't bet money on the winner!



The only problem I do have with these sports, as with many other things in life, is those who say it should become outlawed. If you pays yer money you takes yer chances. I know I might die driving my car tomorrow, but I still get in although a train is statistically safer and goes to same direction. If people don't like it, they should stay uninvolved, not push their own values through into another culture.


Let's relight this forum ubblove

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simian
simian

110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
Location: London
Member Since: 11th Oct 2002
Total posts: 3149
Posted:i've never watched any UFC, though i'm a big fan of watching martial art displays + 70s kungfu movies.

My only objection to combat sports is the issue of combatants being manipulated into damaging their health by others who want to make money out of them.

But other than that i agree totally with Custom Bug. Far too many members of our society believe that laws exist in order to stop things that are bad for you, or that they don't like, or that they don't want their children to see rolleyes


"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."

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onewheeldave
Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield
Member Since: 28th Aug 2002
Total posts: 3252
Posted:In all fairness though, however good at martial arts/fighting someone is, in a situation where he/she is attacked by three individuals, chances are they're going to get beaten.

Concerning some of the other replies: -

The reason unltimate fighting/cage fighting uses a lot of grappling is because they're geared to a one-on-one confrontation, it's pretty much been established that if these go beyond the first punch then they almost always turn into grappling matches.

This approach is not ideal for street attacks because they can involve multiple attackers and getting into a grapple with one of them leaves you extremely vulnerable to the others.

However, no one approach will work in all situations; the fact remains that, whatever the kind of attack, it's going to involve brutality and pain. Pratitioners of realistic combat arts like cage fighting, Thai boxing etc are at an advantage here, whatever the situation.

Contrast this with a art that has multiple attack scenarios as part of its syllabus, but in a very stylised and unrealistic fashion- examples are most forms of Aikido and the set piece karate multiple attack katas.

Although the realistic fighters are not specifically trained in multiple attackers, the fact that they can take a good hard punch to the face and body, and continue to function, gives them a big advantage compared to the aikido-ist who, despite their multiple attacker training, responds to being hit in the head with shock, because they're not used to it.

I'm not saying here that such arts are worthless, simply that their worth lies in the 'art'/spiritual/health aspect. Any claims that, by signing up to them, you will learn, in any reasonable length of time, to defend yourself against real violence, are seriously distorted.

If you're interested in realistic approaches to handling violence I can recommend the writings of Geoff Thompson, a self confessed ex-coward who faced his fears by becoming a doorman for many years, where he learnt how to handle serious attacks and met many others who dealt with violence on a daily basis.

As well as knowing what works and what doesn't, he writes very intelligently and, over the years, seems to have mellowed and knows full well the very negetive and destructive aspects of violence (ie he's unlike much of the cage fighting crowd, many of whom seem to revel in it).

His website is here: -


http://www.geoffthompson.com/
br>
a good example of his practical approach to dealing with real conflict situation is: -

http://www.geoffthompson.com/forewood/forewood_fence.htm




"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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Ade
Are we there yet?
Location: australia
Member Since: 14th Mar 2001
Total posts: 1897
Posted:hey Berzerker - I think boxing was a noble tradition - especially amongst the fellows and lasses who travelled with the Australian Boxing Tents in times gone by. Rigged competition at it's most pure.

I love the history of boxing, know who's who, etc, BUT, I can not actually watch a boxing match - I can't go to the pub, sit in a room oozing testosterone, and actually enjoy the experience.

Would you consider rugby league a combat sport?
If so, then I'm all for it.
(rugby league can be 'read' on so many levels.....)

If someone wants to have the crap beaten out of them by someone else, then, generally, if they know what they are getting into, then why should we stop them?

We are becoming over regulated, and there needs to be an element of individual responsibility and choice left in the world. And that choise has to extend to ALL pasttimes, activities and events. Including those that can end in death.



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Raphael96
old hand
Location: New York City
Member Since: 8th Sep 2002
Total posts: 899
Posted:I love combat sports.

I have been a competitive fencer since I started back in 1983, right before my 13th birthday.
Now, I know that the combat sports mentioned in this thread so far don't involve weapons, but the mentality and discipline required is pretty much the same for fencing, wrestling, karate, kendo or even sumo.

There is something amazing about watching skilled practitioners of any martial art do their thing. I don't mean the demonstrations with the breaking of boards and stuff like that, but rather the matches.

Then again, I enjoy watching tennis matches from the 70's and 80's for the same reason. Watching Borg vs. McEnroe showed a level of tactics and a sense of the Game that you just don't see these days. I see similarities between these kinds of activities and have found inspiration from various sources.

Martial arts are no more dangerous than American football, ice hockey or gymnastics. Personally I find them much more interesting.

Raph


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MiG
MiG

Self-Flagellation Expert
Location: Bogged at CG
Member Since: 16th Apr 2004
Total posts: 3415
Posted:I'm going to have to sit on the fence on this one smile I kinda agree with the fact that its a sport, and all that, like ade said. But then, on the other hand, violence is bad. plain and simple. anything that involves kicking the living daylights out of someone, in my view, isnt really sport. Sport, for me, is something like soccer. but, all too often, that disintegrates into kicking the daylights out of each other. Oh well.

It is interesting to note, however, that many sports evolved from war and violence. Back when it all started in ancient greece, there was running, which was used in combat, javelin - hello, spears, and the like.


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"master"
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--Rougie

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Posted:Quote:
What styles have you trained in and what combination do you find to be effective for your job? - many would say the standard Muay Thai/Boxing/BJJ combo.



I've been training for over 30 years now. I've trained and certified in several martial arts/combat sports and Defensive Tactics. Currently my focus is JKD Concepts/Kali/Grappling. In my security job I find that due to ethical/legal/medical reasons you can't use a lot of the stuff that gets taught as self-defense, therefore I have to fall back on Defensive Tactics. Whereas if I am working the door, often it has been anything goes.



I have to agree with Dave when it comes to Geoff Thompson. He's the real deal in my opinion. Not his fault he's English wink



BEZERKER you mentioned you train in Ninjutsu. Which version? Bujinkan, Genbukan or Jinenkan?



Cheers!


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Ebonyglider
Ebonyglider

member
Location: the birdhouse in your soul
Member Since: 9th Apr 2004
Total posts: 56
Posted:It's... tough.

I started Hwa Rang Do (a lot like Tae Kwon Do, but more defensive than offensive) a little under a year ago. Usually white belts don't have to spar (fight against someone), but no one told me this, so I had to. They started me off with no sparring techniques against a young black belt. I guess they thought it would be okay since the black belt and I were closer in age than the instructors. But this little girl thought that because she was smaller than me, she could do whatever she wanted to me. I was kicked and punched and bruised my first day, and ever since then I'm kind of emotionally scarred.

I don't think we should have to fight in class, because fighting goes against my non-violent morals. I was punished for refusing to spar for my green belt test, so I decided to toughen myself up. Now I think I'm okay with sparring with my friends that are around the same age as me, but no one I don't know.

I guess sparring is part of the whole martial arts thing, since HRD is a self defense art and you have to know what to do in a fight. But I joined to become stronger and more focused, not to learn how to beat someone up.


Hey, I'M the BEE!

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onewheeldave
Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: sheffield
Member Since: 28th Aug 2002
Total posts: 3252
Posted:There's different types of fight situations.

I remember years back when the magazine 'Fighting Arts International', which was one of the better quality martial arts mags of the time, ran a series of articles by a guy called Gary Spiers.

He was an 18 stone bloke who'd spent a lot of time practicing various combat arts and adapting it for use in his line of work, which included working the doors of Liverpool clubs in the seventies.

His life was extremely violent and he regularly faced people armed with stanley knives, clubs etc, often in groups, some of whom were aiming to kill him.

Those articles provoked a great number of complaints from the readership as his descriptions were very graphic and involved acts that many martial artists saw as being not part of their art.

Others posted articles in a similar vein, for example, Nick Hughes, ex Foreign Legion, who set up a martial arts school that had a similar philosophy to modern day cage fighting schools. In these classes, if a member got injured whilst sparring, they had to continue; the idea being that if in a real self defence situation, one had to continue fighting even if badly hurt.

Many said that the kind of violence he described was not the kind that most of us would ever experience, citing, for example, a case in which a woman with only a few weeks experience of karate, on being mugged, hit the mugger with a basic reverse punch to the face. Despite her lack of experience, it was enough to make him give up, turn and run off.

The proponents of the less extreme approach pointed out that attempting to maim assailents with eye gouges, knee drops to the groin, using weapons etc, could land the victim in court. Additionally, the type of training used could be very damaging to ones health, quite possibly more so than one was likely to encounter in the small chance of being attacked.

The truth is that both schools are right. As the proponents of the extreme forms of 'realistic' combat know, there are individuals who, if they attack, will not stop until you are dead. Gary Spiers, despite being a massive individual, claimed that the worst people he faced were physically unintimidating and small, but made up for lack of size in sheer visciousness- they would do whatever was necessary to finish you off including use of weapons.

Then again, many forms of potential attack can be stopped simply by a confident physical manner, by avoiding being in certain places (eg town on a Friday night), by being aware of the preliminaries to violence etc.

I personally feel no need to put myself through the pain and injury risk of 'realistic' training, my lifestyle involves very little exposure to potential violence and, on the occasions when it has happend, I've always managed to deal with it in a non violent way.

But I guess I'm quite lucky in that respect; others live in places where violence is much more common, and they have to train in an effective way to cope with it.

One of the reasons I like Geoff Thompsons approach is that he doesn't just focus on simple and realistic ways of rendering an attacker harmless, but deals in depth with the build up to violence and methods of diffusing situations before they have a chance to turn physical.

To that extent, he encompasses the best side of both schools of thought.


"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

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BEZERKER
BEZERKER

enthusiast

Member Since: 29th Apr 2001
Total posts: 237
Posted:Patrick - I trained Bujinkan. It was the only legitimate style I could find here (Australia). There were a couple of schools claiming to be Ninjitsu but they were generally Bujinkan style moves from someone wanting to start a school but not affiliate with Master Haatsumi.

Haven't heard of the other 2 you listed (starts typing them in to google). I was under the impression that Bujinkan was the most historically accurate and consistently handed down ninja arts school. I absolutely loved it because it was all about finishing a fight quickly and focused on body physics. It had weapons training (katana, bo (3' and 6', short sticks, sometimes manriki gusari and throwing blades), lots of tumbling/rolls and the meditation aspect was great as well.

Do you find after doing so many styles that there is a lot of doubling up? I know Aikido and Ninjitsu share some moves.

beerchug


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BEZERKER
BEZERKER

enthusiast

Member Since: 29th Apr 2001
Total posts: 237
Posted:onewheeldave - I lean more towards the extreme styles because I feel conditioning is so important for effecting training. It's good to know what it feels like to be put on your back and how to try and deal with it. Experiencing some form of punishment (even in a controlled, not TOO painful kind of way) can help you deal with the situation should it ever arise.

Also some styles are very brutal and I'm a fan of that. Ninjitsu uses all sorts of nasty tactics like softening blows to the groin to put someone off weight before using grappling to take them down or grabbing the flesh on the the upper arm to get someone to loosen their grip on you. That sounds nasty but the last Grand Master for the art wrote a fantastic essay about the philosophy of the art and the fact that if presented with aggression and violence that is unavoidable being able to finish it quickly and effectively allows you to return to a state of peace. Being humane to someone WANTING to commit an act of violence is not even on my list of compassion. I'll do whatever I can to stop them.....quickly. Incidently I'm so not a hard arse that more than likely I'd just get pounded smile but I figure if you're going to train then train hard.

I've been caught in some shitty situations involving more than one assailant (up to about 20 once when I was by myself). All I could do was run as fast as I could after copping some blows. This is all ok on my own but what if my young sons or girlfriend are with me. I would have to try and stand and fight to let them get away. Me personally? I'd rather at least be able to take 1 or 2 down before being flogged and hopefully slow them down.

Kind of a paranoid attitude I know but we live in a world where the unwritten rules of life are being eroded by dead beats. Last year in Sydney a guy was attacked whilst he had a baby in a pouch on his chest. The baby suffered some bad injuries when the guy was knocked down and attacked. I always thought you'd leave children or pregnant ladies out of the picture at the VERY MINIMUM but yet there's people out there so commited to violence they just don't care - the degredation of society is a reality. I can see some idiot not caring if I'm with my children or not and stepping in to attack anyway one day. I'll try my best and hope some of the training has paid off. But as someone said above (something like this anyway) fending them off with a debate about religion won't work.

I love that Martial Arts are such a personal thing and there are so many different styles to suit so many different personalities and opinions. Take it easy.

And above all PEACE peace


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