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SpitFire
Mand's Girl....and The Not So Shy One
Location: Calgary, Alberta Canada
Member Since: 2nd Dec 2002
Total posts: 2723
Posted:My Mom supports civil unions for gay people, but not marriage. Separate but equal.

Can you really have separate but equal? No. You. Can't. Why? Ask those who went through the civil rights movement in the 60's. Separate water fountains, separate bathrooms, separate seating on the bus, though they were supposed to be equal. The sad thing, they were not treated as equals. Not at all.

I finally got the courage up to tell Mom I found someone special. She's known I've been gay for 10 years now, and I actually came out to her again, when I finally got the courage up to tell dad, face to face. I told them that their treatment of my then girlfriend and I was not fair, and I deserved to be accepted for all of me, not just my academic succeses. They seemed to have made real progress since then. After today's conversation I'm not so sure.

Mom supports civil unions. Not gay marriage. She doesn't seem to realize, that federally, civil unions don't give gay couples the same rights and privileges that she and dad get.

She doesn't want it called marriage because marriage is between a man and a woman. It's a biological issue, according to her, and a moral one. She wouldn't listen when I told her the moral argument is rooted in religious doctrine, which has NO place in our government and political process. She wouldn't listen or answer when I asked about the millions of straight couples who got married without intent on having children. She decided not to talk. She said good bye and hung up the phone.

Mom didn't even tell me she was happy for me, that I've found someone. She didn't say anything at all.

It stings, I tell you. It stings.


Solitude sometimes speaks to you, and you should listen.

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woodnymph
woodnymph

member
Location: london,uk
Member Since: 14th Sep 2003
Total posts: 313
Posted:would a hug help? hug hug ubbangel

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_VT_
Your Face!
Location: el paso, tx
Member Since: 15th Jul 2003
Total posts: 1173
Posted:yes,the spitfirey type person gets a hug whenever i meet her.(sends thoughts of helios her way). wink

Heroism on command, senseless violence, and all the loathsome nonsense that goes by the name of patriotism - how passionately I hate them!
-Albert Einstein-

Peanut butter... It fills the cracks of the soul! -Paul Blart-

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Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13920
Posted:I believe in civil unions for gay people, too. I also believe in civil unions for straight people.

My view is that if you want to get married, that's a religious issue. I don't understand why the government is in the marriage business at all.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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SpitFire
Mand's Girl....and The Not So Shy One
Location: Calgary, Alberta Canada
Member Since: 2nd Dec 2002
Total posts: 2723
Posted:What people fail to recognize or mention, is that so far, civil unions are only recognized on a state level.

Civil Unions still leave out the federal benefits and rights that "marriage" grants heterosexual couples.

Until the politicians realize this, and start finding ways to grant homosexuals EQUAL rights, not special rights as some believe, then we still get short changed.

For personal reasons, I would love to see the Permanent Partners bill make it out of committee and onto the senate and house floors, and passed. It would give a same sex equivalent to the fiancee visa.

My emotions are raw today. Too raw to discuss such matters with Mom.

I won't change her beliefs or views. She won't change mine. I just want her to accept who I am, and accept the woman I love as she's accepted the man my sister loves.

Some say I'm asking too much. Perhaps I am. The sad thing is....it may mean me spending less time with the folks around important holidays.



Solitude sometimes speaks to you, and you should listen.

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bender
still can't believe it's not butter
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Member Since: 14th Nov 2001
Total posts: 6979
Posted:It saddens me no a little to see lack of tolerance cause pain to you, Spitfire.
You have shown courage to all parties so far, and I am certain that your parents understand that your underlying motivation is out of love.
Perhaps you will win them over yet - perhaps you will not. The best advice i can give to you from my limited understanding that that one must be the change that one wants to see in the world. blossom your relationship into something wonderful, and even if they still do not approve, you will have already achieved the best you could.
I am proud that I share the same community with people of such conviction and bravery, and take my hat off to you if only i were into hats peace
yooo rawk spitfire!!!!!
and to your partner, please tell her she rawks too! smile


Laugh Often, Smile Much, Post lolcats Always

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SpitFire
Mand's Girl....and The Not So Shy One
Location: Calgary, Alberta Canada
Member Since: 2nd Dec 2002
Total posts: 2723
Posted:Thanks, Bender. smile

Mand does indeed rawk...and is a fellow HoP'er. She has very limited internet access at the moment, as she's working in the middle of no where, but she does pop on every now and again.

My plan is to concentrate on what we share, and let it blossom into something incredibly special. In the end, Mom will still love me, it's what parents do. She may not approve, but I'm not changing who I am for her or anyone. We may never see eye to eye on this, but I can and will take comfort in the precious gift I've been given. ubblove


Solitude sometimes speaks to you, and you should listen.

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MillenniuM
MillenniuM

Hyperloops suck

Member Since: 10th Jul 2003
Total posts: 595
Posted:I'm sorry for the difference of opinion between you and your parents. I know that kind of stuff can really mess with your emotions, I'm sure most of us have been there. I have quite a few gay friends, and I can't think of a single one that doesn't have some kind of issue with either their immediate family, or extended family.

Quote:
She wouldn't listen when I told her the moral argument is rooted in religious doctrine, which has NO place in our government and political process.



I can't really agree with that... I'm not a religious person, I don't believe in god... but religion has a *HUGE* influence and place in our government. What do you place your hand on when you are sworn in to a court? "Under God" was added in to the national anthem in the 1960's. Although I agree with you, religion and government should be for the most part seperate (NOT completely seperate, or else many bad things can happen), they are very much intertwined. How many of our presidents have been Jewish? rolleyes

I have a question I want to ask you, feel free not to answer: When did you first come to the realization that you were gay? Any other gay or bisexual people feel free to answer as well. The reason I ask is that I've called myself in to question on many occasions as to if I am bisexual. I'm very much attracted to the opposite sex, but at times I have feelings on a more emotional rather than physical level with the same sex that I find could only be classified as an overwhelming feeling of a need for exclusivity between myself and another. Almost to a point where I would feel betrayed if that person was to fool around with another person. The cookie cutter answer seems to be "follow your heart, let it play out over time, you'll 'find yourself'" or something similar, but I'm still so lost. Did you have an emotional breakthrough? Always known? Still don't know? Eek confused


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bender
still can't believe it's not butter
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Member Since: 14th Nov 2001
Total posts: 6979
Posted:we are all, in our own way, tantric creatures. The only differences between all of us is how we react to this inherently sexual nature - I hazard a contributing factor to this is the tendency that only sexual creatures get to pass on their genes! (please with the harmaphrodite jokes plz! smile )
EDITED_BY: bender (1081401677)


Laugh Often, Smile Much, Post lolcats Always

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SpitFire
Mand's Girl....and The Not So Shy One
Location: Calgary, Alberta Canada
Member Since: 2nd Dec 2002
Total posts: 2723
Posted:Quote:

I can't really agree with that... I'm not a religious person, I don't believe in god... but religion has a *HUGE* influence and place in our government. What do you place your hand on when you are sworn in to a court? "Under God" was added in to the national anthem in the 1960's. Although I agree with you, religion and government should be for the most part seperate (NOT completely seperate, or else many bad things can happen), they are very much intertwined. How many of our presidents have been Jewish?



Religion should not, though, dictate policy. Religion and religious institutions tend to think they dictate morality (gross generalization, mind you, but...perhaps not too far off.) There are some givens, like though shalt not kill, etc. However, there are others that....should be left up to the person. Something that is morally just and right to one won't be to someone else who has different religious beliefs. I live in a country which guarantees freedom of religion. The constitution, bill of rights, etc says nothing about freedom of "christian" religion, and I am not christian. My beliefs tell me my sexuality, and my love for women is not wrong. The government's stance on gay marriage sets up inequity between homosexuals and heterosexuals. The lack of equality should be addressed for us to be the "Great Nation" we claim to be. We are one of the few western countries that do not recognize, on a federal level, same sex marriage, and one of the few that don't allow immigration of international partners. (This last point strikes really close to home). All I want is equity....complete equity. Though, some say I ask too much.

As for when did I know I was gay? Well, my first thoughts on it were when I was perhaps 7, and I saw two women holding hands, and asked Mom about it. The next time, I was a freshman in High school, when someone explained what a lesbian was. I thought, "oooh...coool." THough, the reaction of my friends tabled my reaction. I didn't think about it again until I was 19, and then had a 2 year struggle with coming to terms with my sexuality. Once I took a deep breath, and opened my mind, my world got a lot brighter, and I finally realized EXACTLY what it was people were on about regarding sex. I'd slept with men, and it was ok, but...I didn't get what the big deal was. The first time I kissed a woman, I felt like I was in the middle of a fireworks display, and a huge lightbulb went off, and I was like, "Oh...that's what all the ruckus is about."

As for the emotional connection....when two people connect, it's magic. Such connections....are hard to ignore. To be honest, impossible to ignore. The first time I had such a connection was with a woman I spent 5 years of my life with. I'd been out for a few years by then, and in one relationship that was intimate, but not.....intense, if that makes sense.

Millennium, the thing is, the connection will come, and yes, you should just follow your heart. Don't ever force anything...relationships are not meant to be foreced, they're meant to blossom. I've learned that lesson over the years. The initial "blossoming" is intense, and sets up a foundation for the rest of the relationship. Nurture it, and don't fear it...listen to your heart, though, and don't ignore it.

I've found something truly special, and am following my heart. The joy is overwhelming at times, but I cherish it, and what she and I share. I look forward to the day when we don't have an ocean between us, I look forward to the day we can travel life's roads together.

SpitFire....all corny and deep this morning...and procrastinating at work.


Solitude sometimes speaks to you, and you should listen.

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MillenniuM
MillenniuM

Hyperloops suck

Member Since: 10th Jul 2003
Total posts: 595
Posted:Very beautiful post, really helps a lot, thank you kindly.

Just to let you know, I don't agree with the mix between religion and government being so strong - I'm just saying that it is there. You won't find any argument from me that it is wrong, but you cannot deny the fact that we live in a Christian society with many legal aspects dictated by Christianity.


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Rouge Dragon
Rouge Dragon

Insert Champagne Here
Location: without class distinction
Member Since: 21st Jul 2003
Total posts: 13215
Posted:um...what actually is a civil union? is it like a de facto relationship?
cos in australia, legally, de facto couples have almost the same rights as marries couples...so would that apply to same sex couples as well?


i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...

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SpitFire
Mand's Girl....and The Not So Shy One
Location: Calgary, Alberta Canada
Member Since: 2nd Dec 2002
Total posts: 2723
Posted:In the United States, Civil Unions do not get recognized on a federal level, so all of the federal benefits and rights that come with "marriage" are not available to those in civil unions.

A civil union is...a bit more than a de facto relationship....but it's close...I think.

I know...not being terribly helpful, am I?


Solitude sometimes speaks to you, and you should listen.

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Rouge Dragon
Rouge Dragon

Insert Champagne Here
Location: without class distinction
Member Since: 21st Jul 2003
Total posts: 13215
Posted:helpful enough that i think they arent recognised in the US like they are here.
goodluck with it all tho!!! hug hug hug


i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...

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SpitFire
Mand's Girl....and The Not So Shy One
Location: Calgary, Alberta Canada
Member Since: 2nd Dec 2002
Total posts: 2723
Posted:Thanks.

I think I want to move to Australia, though. biggrin

Or Canada.

Or...well...somewhere away from our current administration.


Solitude sometimes speaks to you, and you should listen.

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Rouge Dragon
Rouge Dragon

Insert Champagne Here
Location: without class distinction
Member Since: 21st Jul 2003
Total posts: 13215
Posted:ah, maybe canada...someone correct me if im wrong, but i thought australias government was still rather prudish on same sex marriages (and anything different from 'the norm').
last year i remember looking at a case for legal studies where a transexual wanted to marry and there were issues as to, well everything about it really (governments rolleyes). i cant remember the outcome though.


i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...

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vanize
vanize

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Austin, Texas
Member Since: 21st Aug 2001
Total posts: 3899
Posted:Quote:
We are one of the few western countries that do not recognize, on a federal level, same sex marriage





actually that is a common misconception. In the entire world, only Belium and the Netherlands nationally recognize same sex civil marriage. 3 provinces of Canada do as well, and all of Canada as well as Sweden are thinking about (may have already?). And only Canada does not require you to be a citizen to get married there (hint hint). Many local municipalities in the states recognize it as well. In those terms, you cannot say that America is so backwards, because it is actually one of the few places in the world you can get a same-sex civil marriage (in Massachusettes and parts of California?), even if it is maybe only temporary. Note that the largest protestant church in canada supports the legalization of same-sex marriage, and without this support, it would likely not be legal there.



gay civil unions are allowed in more places (add Buenos aires, Argentina, france, germany, britan, portugal, part of spain, sweden, findland, norway, iceland, denmark, and a few (?) States in America - well, at least vermont for sure).



So Spitfire my dear, please recognize that this is far from a settled issue for the world. America is not so far behind the times. There are only few countries in the entire world that fully support what you want. Even the majority of europe does not support gay civil unions. Note that civil union in Germany does not give you full spousal rights either - you still get paid and pay taxes as a single person for example (it makes a big difference on your income here actually - they sort of try to bribe you to get married, stay married, and reproduce here).



Denmark was the first country to recognize same sex unions, and that was as reciently as 1989. The rest of scandanavia followed suit in the early '90s. More of Europe is talking about gay civil unions, but for the most part this still means only limited union rights and does not do all that that marrage would for a couple. BBut then many younger Europeans are anti-marrage anyway, and I think full marrage rights are not neccisarily something most homosexuals in Europe actually think is worth fighting for.



So in the end, you are likely to soon get pretty much exactly the same rights as a gay couple in America that you would get in Europe or anywhere else with a national recognition of civil unions (hopefully for not just gay couples, but hetero ones as well). Only the netherlands, belgium, canada, and sweden are in your court. You don't have an overwhelming western world precident behind you in your struggle for same sex marriage in the states. And so, while I fully support you in your desire for it, I would like you to recognize that the debate in America is actually more along the lines of pushing the vanguard of liberalism rather than pulling up rear of conservatism. The government is currently very vocal in its opposition, but many places in America are actually more liberally minded about the issue than the vast majority of the world.



Anyway, rant on my dearest... beerchug


-v-

Wiederstand ist Zwecklos!

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vanize
vanize

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Austin, Texas
Member Since: 21st Aug 2001
Total posts: 3899
Posted:and sorry about your parent's attitude. I know you love your parents a lot, so it must be very difficult to feel like you don't have their support. hug

-v-

Wiederstand ist Zwecklos!

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Dentrassi
Dentrassi

ZORT!
Location: Brisbane
Member Since: 9th Apr 2003
Total posts: 3044
Posted:its taken a few days to get my thoughts in order to write about something which is quite close to me.

im sort of in a 'dont ask dont tell' thing with my folks at the moment. i can talk about most things with my mother - dad doesnt initiate a single conversation - but talking about my bisexaulity is still pretty difficult.

i know they will love me and support me no matter what i do, but they would much rather i settled down with a nice girl and gave them loads of 'dentrassi-lets' for them to pamper.

especially now, when i leaning towards feeling more gay than bi, and am getting close to one particularly hot young man wink, the uncertainty of how to approach things is really hard.

theres also the factor of my brother and sister, who are both respectively married and living on the other side of the world in UK. they have no idea of my sexuality - id rather wait till they visited to tell them rather that by phone or email! both them, and their partners, have quite strong religous convictions - so there is a great deal of uncertainty then, on the other hand, they have had friendships with gay people in the past, but its different when its someone in your own family.
i guess i can only take things as it comes.

my warmest wishes & hugs for both you spitfire and your partner.
hug hug


"Here kitty kitty...." - Schroedinger.

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Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13920
Posted:Quote:
Quote:
We are one of the few western countries that do not recognize, on a federal level, same sex marriage



actually that is a common misconception. In the entire world, only Belium and the Netherlands nationally recognize same sex civil marriage. 3 provinces of Canada do as well, and all of Canada as well as Sweden are thinking about (may have already?). And only Canada does not require you to be a citizen to get married there (hint hint). Many local municipalities in the states recognize it as well. In those terms, you cannot say that America is so backwards, because it is actually one of the few places in the world you can get a same-sex civil marriage (in Massachusettes and parts of California?), even if it is maybe only temporary. Note that the largest protestant church in canada supports the legalization of same-sex marriage, and without this support, it would likely not be legal there.

gay civil unions are allowed in more places (add Buenos aires, Argentina, france, germany, britan, portugal, part of spain, sweden, findland, norway, iceland, denmark, and a few (?) States in America - well, at least vermont for sure).



The difference is the vehemence of the false puritanism here. This is the only country that is actually considering a permanent ban on both marriage and civil unions.

Furthermore, those countries do protect gays against discrimination. Britain actually makes immigrants take a re-education course where this, among other things, is taught.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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SpitFire
Mand's Girl....and The Not So Shy One
Location: Calgary, Alberta Canada
Member Since: 2nd Dec 2002
Total posts: 2723
Posted:I love ya vanize. biggrin

Thanks for the more wordly view.

Since it is Easter Sunday, the folks called. Well, they would have called anyway...we talk once a week, usually.

Mom, Dad and I talked at length about various things, including Mand.

I was a bit sly, and brought her up in casual conversation. I spent the weekend with Dad's sister and my cousins. I told my aunt and gang about Mand, showed them pictures, and blushed a lot as they teased me and congratulated me.

I mentioned this to the folks, and that my Aunt has insisted on meeting Mand the next time she's in the states, since my aunt and cousins live only 30 minutes from me.

Mom and Dad both said that if we had the spare time to drive out to their place (6 hours by car), they would love to meet her as well.

*pleasant smile*

They are trying. I think....I wasn't being entirely fair to Mom earlier in the week. We were both in a heated conversation, and that was the first time she heard about Mand...

She and Dad went out of their way to say that they are looking forward to meeting her.

biggrin

*biiiiiiiig sigh of relief and a big fat smile*

Now..it's midnight, and I got way too little sleep this weekend...

S.F. (who got to spin on the beach this weekend biggrin )


Solitude sometimes speaks to you, and you should listen.

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Gnor's Bill
Gnor's Bill

member
Location: Perth, Western Australia
Member Since: 11th Apr 2004
Total posts: 26
Posted:Best of luck Spitfire. I am a hopeless romantic and believe in love above all things.

Amor Vincit Omnia (Love conquers all). And I hope it is true in your case.

Hugs,

Gnor's Bill...
11 years married ubblove


If found wandering please return to Gnor.

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