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Forums > Social Discussion > Capital Punishment/ the Death Penalty

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OrangeBobo
SILVER Member since Nov 2003

OrangeBobo

veteran
Location: Guelph, ON, Canada

Total posts: 1389
Posted:Whooboy.

Okay, so I'm currently writing an essay on Capital punishment (taking the stnad against it, naturally). Just wanted to put out some points I find rather interesting, and get others opinions on it all.

First off, some quotes I found that I like about this subject, both for and against it:

"Where would Christianity be if Jesus got eight to fifteen years with time off for good behavior?" NY State Senator James Donovan, speaking in support of capital punishment.

"Sometimes you just have the thin the herd." Dennis Miller

"Does it make sense for the state to hire murderers to kill defenseless victims on death row, in order to prove that hiring murderers to kill defenseless victims is morally wrong?" Anon.

"As I read the New Testament, I don't see anywhere in there that killing bad people is a very high calling for Christians. I see an awful lot about redemption and forgiveness." James W.L. Park, former execution officer, San Quentin, California

"I do not believe any civilized society should be at the service of death. I don't think it's human to become an agent of the Angel of Death." Elie Wiesel

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The word "capital" in "capital punishment" refers to a person's head. In the past, people were often executed by severing their head from their body. Today, in the U.S., most prisoners are executed by lethal injection.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

When asked whether they prefer to keep or abolish the death penalty, about 60 to 80% of American adults say that they want to retain capital punishment. Numbers vary depending upon the precise wording of the question asked by the pollsters. When asked whether they would like to see executions continue or have them replaced with a system that guaranteed:

- life imprisonment with no hope for parole, ever;
- that the inmate would work in the prison to earn money;
- that the money would be directed to helping the family of the person(s) that they killed,

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"2003-JAN-13: Kenya: government plans to abolish the death penalty: The newly-elected government of Kenya plans to abolish the death penalty in the country by the middle of the year. Justice Minister Kiraitu Murungi said: "We think the fundamental human right to live should be respected, and no human being should have the authority to take the life of another," There are over 1,000 prisoners on death row in Kenya. Nobody has been executed in the country since 1984. "

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"2003-FEB-10: AR: State can make inmate sane enough to execute: By a close ruling of 6 to 5, the United States Court of Appeals for the Eighth Circuit ruled that prison officials can force an inmate on death row to take antipsychotic medication, in order to make him sane enough to execute."

((I personally find that completely immoral, and insane... More than any living human could possibly be.... That's just not right!))

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

That's just a fraction of what I wanted to share. And no, I didn't have any intentions of picking on, insulting, or anything like that, to the USA, it's just that some of their states are still pro-capital punishment. I added the thing On Kenya in there, to show that it's not just the USA that deals with capiltal punishment, because by no means is it.

Canada's stand on Capital punishment is that there is none in this country, and "It is final and irreversible."

~ Bobo


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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:Quote:
"2003-FEB-10: AR: State can make inmate sane enough to execute: By a close ruling of 6 to 5, the United States Court of Appeals for the Eighth Circuit ruled that prison officials can force an inmate on death row to take antipsychotic medication, in order to make him sane enough to execute."

((I personally find that completely immoral, and insane... More than any living human could possibly be.... That's just not right!))




I am anti-capital punishment in general, but my feelings on the issue are not incredibly strong, except for the case of Texas, where they seem to be a bit slaughter-happy. I'm not going to involve myself further in the debate, but I do want to comment on the quote above.

In my opinion, it is unethical for a physician to participate in any way with any part of the death penalty. If there is one overarching motto of Medicine, it is "Do No Harm!" It is my opinion that a physician should lose his or her license for intentionally prescribing drugs that will directly or indirectly result in the untimely and involuntary death of a patient.

The Hippocratic oath has changed and evolved over the milennia (the original version forbade abortion and required that a physician financially support his teacher should he find hard times! It also specified that a physician teach his teacher's children free of charge if they so desired!), but one aspect of the Oath that has remained over time is the admonition that you NEVER, EVER, EVER intentionally kill a patient. You can allow a patient to die through inaction under certain circumstances, but you must NEVER EVER take action to actively end a patient's life.

Forcing a patient to take antipsychotics under normal circumstances is appropriate if the patient's behavior is so disorganized that she presents a danger to herself or to others. However, if the direct result of that action is that the patient will be executed, then I believe it is unethical to prescribe such drugs. Similarly, no physician should play any role in the selection, prescription, or administration of drugs for lethal injection, nor should a physician supervise or even be present for the procedure.

Regardless of whether a physician supports the death penalty or not, it is unethical for any physician to participate in it in any way. It is not a medical procedure, it treats no disease or complaint, and it is outside the scope of medical practice.


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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Glåss
PLATINUM Member since Nov 2001

Glåss

The Ministry of Manipulation
Location: Bristol

Total posts: 2523
Posted:thanks bobo,

good info. smile



heres is (probably) the best quote against capital punishment:



"let him have it" - never said by Derek Bentley.


EDITED_BY: Glss (1081106398)


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MillenniuM
GOLD Member since Jul 2003

MillenniuM

Hyperloops suck


Total posts: 595
Posted:I'm for capital punishment. I don't see the difference between letting someone rot away in prison for 40+ years. I don't see why MY money should be used to support a dead-end life of someone who has commited an untolorable crime. I also believe that any inmate who wishes to be put to death should at any point in their sentence be allowed to be put to death if they so choose.

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:It actually does cost more money to execute someone than to imprison them for life. But I don't see money as being the main issue here.

-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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OrangeBobo
SILVER Member since Nov 2003

OrangeBobo

veteran
Location: Guelph, ON, Canada

Total posts: 1389
Posted:It is definately a moral issue here. Money is not the problem. I mean, do you honestly think that your tax dollars go where they tell you it goes?? Not likely. Keeping a couple hundred inmates alive is pocket change compared to taking over the world or something (not really taking over the world, but you get it) rolleyes



Thanks Lightning, to see that a) I'm not the only one thinking that, and that b) as your opinoin as a MD, the person who would be administering the meds to make the person "sane" to kill... I just wonder what kind of person, let alone an MD would actually do such a thing?? What, do they think that they were sane when they comitted the crime?? It's just an excuse to kill someone.



It's gross and sickening.



~ Bobo

EDITED_BY: OrangeBobo (1081128623)


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Dentrassi
GOLD Member since Apr 2003

Dentrassi

ZORT!
Location: Brisbane

Total posts: 3044
Posted:Quote:
It actually does cost more money to execute someone than to imprison them for life. But I don't see money as being the main issue here.



yup. was trying to remember where i read that. the great thing is that most of the money goes to the lawyers!


"Here kitty kitty...." - Schroedinger.

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Doc Lightning
GOLD Member since May 2001

Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

Total posts: 13920
Posted:Quote:
Thanks Lightning, to see that a) I'm not the only one thinking that, and that b) as your opinoin as a MD,



I'm not an MD yet!!!

Last thing I need to be accused of is impersonating a physician...


-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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OrangeBobo
SILVER Member since Nov 2003

OrangeBobo

veteran
Location: Guelph, ON, Canada

Total posts: 1389
Posted:Ahem.. *almost* MD. I think? Sorry Lightning, I don't really know how close you are to graduating... ^^; How close ARE you?

*skips over to edit posts*

Sorry!! hughug

~ Bobo


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OrangeBobo
SILVER Member since Nov 2003

OrangeBobo

veteran
Location: Guelph, ON, Canada

Total posts: 1389
Posted:*tries to edit posts, but won't work*

Urgh, this forum really doesn't like me!! *sigh*

Well, I'll see if it'll work later... frown

~ Bobo


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Rouge Dragon
BRONZE Member since Jul 2003

Rouge Dragon

Insert Champagne Here
Location: without class distinction

Total posts: 13215
Posted:I'm against the death penalty. i dont think anyone has the right to take another person's life regardless of what that person has done. just because someone kills another doesnt give anyone else the right to pass judgement on them. someone many deserve to die, yes. but i dont believe anyone has the right to officially and legally decide that.

i heard something on the radio the other day that i thought was interesting:
an american is seeking asylum in canada because if he goes back to the US he will be executed. why? because he deserted the army. personally i find that law so archaic and draconic. it just doesnt seem like something a "civilised" country would do. i agree that they need soimething to deter people from deserting, but the death penalty just seems a bit medieval.
what had happend was this: the man fought in afghanistan (is that spelt right?) and on returning wished to resign. however they 'lost' his resignation and they then sent him to iraq, where somewhere along the line he deserted, fled to canada and is now seeking asylum. its apparently not unheard of.

australia doesnt have the death penalty. good, i say.


i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
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Big Andy
BRONZE Member since Apr 2003

member
Location: Dallas, Tx

Total posts: 186
Posted:Quote:
Originally posted by Millenium
I'm for capital punishment. I don't see the difference between letting someone rot away in prison for 40+ years. I don't see why MY money should be used to support a dead-end life of someone who has commited an untolorable crime.


Several reasons. First of all, have you noticed the trend of death sentences getting reversed because years later, incontrovertable evidence was uncovered that freed the innocent person? Undoubtedly, people have been put to death who committed no crime. Granted, this is a VERY RARE occasion, but if it happens once, then that's too many times for me. I'll gladly offer my tax dollars to imprison people if it means no needless deaths occur.

Secondly, I completely agree with the Kenya quote. No person, organization, or government has the right to take life from a person, regardless of what that person has done. What gives a judge, jury, or executioner the right to put someone to death, when that person didn't have the right to kill in the first place?! It is not necessary to kill someone to keep them from killing someone else, so why commit the same atrocity they are being punished for? Kinda hypocritical to me.

Quote:
I also believe that any inmate who wishes to be put to death should at any point in their sentence be allowed to be put to death if they so choose.


Well, I'm not sure about that one. I guess the desire isn't "wrong" per se, but of course, someone has to aid them or do it for them, so I can't really get behind that. An interesting idea though. No one else has the right to take someone's life, but should an inmate have the right to take his own? A tough question. I guess when you get down to it, you always have that right, in that if you can get ahold of a device that you can operate, then you can kill yourself, I don't really think there should be a provision for it in our prison system though...


"We can't stop here! This is bat country!"

"Welcome to the U-S-A,
We'll treat you right, unless you're black or gay, or Cherokeeeeee!!"

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Big Andy
BRONZE Member since Apr 2003

member
Location: Dallas, Tx

Total posts: 186
Posted:Quote:
Originally posted by Rouge Dragon
i heard something on the radio the other day that i thought was interesting:
an american is seeking asylum in canada because if he goes back to the US he will be executed. why? because he deserted the army. personally i find that law so archaic and draconic. it just doesnt seem like something a "civilised" country would do.



HA! You think the United States is civilized?!?! I managed a McDonald's in a small east texas town, believe me, it's not civilized. The technology may be, but the people are not.

Don't get me wrong, there are plenty of worth while people here, but the negative American stereotypes are true of far too many people.


"We can't stop here! This is bat country!"

"Welcome to the U-S-A,
We'll treat you right, unless you're black or gay, or Cherokeeeeee!!"

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MillenniuM
GOLD Member since Jul 2003

MillenniuM

Hyperloops suck


Total posts: 595
Posted:If anyone has it handy, could you possibly link me to where it says executing someone costs more than imprisoning them for life? It doesn't make any logical sense to me. I tend to be skeptical of such a statistic, as I'm not sure they'd consider intangibles such as guard pay (X guards to every Y prisoners, therefore there would be X more guards if not for capital punishment), facilities (More cells needed for more prisoners) food, and general resource use (water, gas, whatever). If a prisoner is using these neccessities for 40+ years, how could that possibly add up to less than the cost of 2 shots?

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Mistress Aurora


Mistress Aurora

Hot Schtuff
Location: Stillwater,OK/Wichita Falls,TX

Total posts: 1032
Posted:Quote:
i heard something on the radio the other day that i thought was interesting:
an american is seeking asylum in canada because if he goes back to the US he will be executed. why? because he deserted the army. personally i find that law so archaic and draconic. it just doesnt seem like something a "civilised" country would do. i agree that they need soimething to deter people from deserting, but the death penalty just seems a bit medieval.




Link 1
Quote:
Hinzman knows if he returns to the United States he will be arrested and sent to jail. If convicted at a military court-martial of deserting in a time of war, he could face lethal injection.

But even during the height of the Vietnam War, when thousands of soldiers deserted rather than go to Southeast Asia, none received the ultimate penalty. Not since World War II has a soldier been executed for desertion.



Link 2
Quote:
If the Army chooses to prosecute Mejia, he most likely would be charged with absence without leave or desertion. Penalties could range from dishonorable discharge to five years in prison, Resnick said.



Link 3
Quote:
END NOTE: Some military offenses, such as desertion and misbehavior before the enemy, carry the death sentence as maximum punishment. However, no death sentences have actually been executed for any military offense in the US Armed Forces since Jan 1945, when Private Eddie Slovik, a convicted deserter, dies by firing such as [sic] premeditated murder or rape, have taken place in the US Armed Forces since 1961.



Those are some quotes taken from those articles. There is no statement or law saying that a deserter will automatically be put to death. They must have a trial first and found guilty or not guilty by a jury and then sentencing is to follow. Death is only the maximum possible punishment for the crime of desertion. But like some of the articles stated "no deserter has ever been sentenced to death for desertion since WWII."




RISK: Do not follow the common path; Go where there is no path and leave a trail.

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Shawnie
GOLD Member since Mar 2004

Captain Shawnie the Dreaded


Total posts: 126
Posted:Bobo and Lightning

Very refreshing to hear your views! Well expressed and very articulate. I couldn't agree more with both of you.

(Bobo.. cheers! Have a Keith's! beerchug)


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Kaji


Kaji

Quantum Theorist
Location: Vansterdam

Total posts: 564
Posted:I don't think anyone has the right to take a life other than there own. Which brings me to this rather sick point. Before a prisoner is executed they are put on death watch. On death watch they are watched to make sure they don't kill themselves eek confused If they do however succede in causing clinical death to occur (ie no pulse, no breathing, etc...) or even if it was from natural causes such as a heart attack or stroke, an effort is made to revive them. They revive them so they can be executed!!!! For ****'s sakes they're dead! Leave them in peace!!! Reviving them to kill them is just ******* sick! And morally speaking, should a doctor even revive the prisoner? Doesn't that in it's self come under what Mike was talking about? A doctor making a prisoner suitible to execute? confused confused confused

In the 60's people took acid to make the world weird, now the world is weird and they take prozac to make it normal again.

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Rouge Dragon
BRONZE Member since Jul 2003

Rouge Dragon

Insert Champagne Here
Location: without class distinction

Total posts: 13215
Posted:thats just sick!

i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...

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Pink...?
BRONZE Member since Apr 2002

Pink...?

Mistress of Pink...Multicoloured
Location: Over There

Total posts: 6140
Posted:Very interesting points been said.

I don't agree with Capital Punishment. I think that for some cases death is an easy way out for them. If murderers and such people had even a little bit of morality then they would feel guilty and such for their crimes. I think that having someone spend the rest of their lives in guilt is a better punishment then killing them!

ubbangel



Never pick up a duck in a dungeon...

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Dom
BRONZE Member since Dec 2001

Dom

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Bristol, UK

Total posts: 3009
Posted:MilleniuM -
Quote:
12.01 years is the average length of stay on Death Row prior to execution. Source: Florida Department of Corrections


Most of these years are spent in the courts, which costs an insane amount of money. And the cost of facilities on Death Row is higher per inmate than in a typical jail.

Also, the death penalty simply does not work. A New York Times study found that in the last 20 tears, the homicide rate in states with the death penalty has been 48%-101% higher than in states without the death penalty.

Then there's the simple fact that mistake occur & innocent people die. What percentage risk or success rate would be acceptable to you?


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simian


simian

110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
Location: London

Total posts: 3149
Posted:i've always thought there's something really disturbing about the cold-blooded, clinical and deliberate extinguishing of a life by a state. No matter how 'evil' the holder of that life may be.

but thats just a subjective feeling rather than an argument.

The co$t of keeping someone alive vs. the ost of their execution? eek
Who cares? That is NOT a factor by which civilised people decide someone's life or death.

Dom's hit the nails on the heads IMO
Deterrent's don't work on the socially irresponsible. i know. i'm a smoker.
you can't free the wrongfully accused from the afterlife.

and the whole idea smacks more of revenge rather than the best course of action for society in general.


"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."

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Prometheus


Prometheus

Diamond In The Rough
Location: Richmond, Virginia

Total posts: 459
Posted:The death penalty was devised centuries ago, not as a deterrent, but to satisfy a biblical need for vengence. If it was truly a deterrent, they would use it on people who fear death. You can't threaten murderers and drug dealers with capital punishment because they aren't afraid to die. They demonstrate their disregard for human life every day...The death penalty only means something if you use it on people who are afraid to die.

As far as Cost vs Power of Life & Death goes, consider this. There is a maximum security prison in Arizona that has been effectively and economically run for at least 10 years now. I don't recall the particulars, but there is a Sheriff out there who found a a way to incarcerate the regions emanest inmates without severly taxing the public's pocketbook. The state REQUIRES us to provide prisoners with basic necessities, food, shelter, and medical care. The prison is little more than a dustbowl, They are encamped out in the desert, miles from populated areas. They get a tent, a modest supply of food and water, and when they aren't baking themselves under the AZ sun, they're forced to work. They get no luxuries like cable TV, a weight room, conjugal visits, nothing. They are overseen by a minimum of well-armed guards and the entire region is restricted from public access. I've seen figures that say it costs around $29,000 a year to house each inmate in a conventional prison. This costs about $17 a week. That's less than $900 a year. So to say it costs us too much money to keep criminals alive is ludicrous, irresponsible and insensitive.

Now, there are certain people who commit such heinous acts of cruelty against society, that yes, maybe they deserve to die. If we had a fool-proof justice system, one that never made mistakes, then perhaps I might feel OK with captial punishment. I read just last week about people who are about to be freed from death row because of DNA testing on evidence that has been sitting on a shelf for 30+ years. There are too many wrongfully convicted prisoners to endorse a death penalty.


Dance like it hurts; Love like you need money; Work like someone is watching.

Never criticize someone until you've walked a mile in their shoes. That way, when you DO criticize them, you are a mile away, and you have their shoes.

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OrangeBobo
SILVER Member since Nov 2003

OrangeBobo

veteran
Location: Guelph, ON, Canada

Total posts: 1389
Posted:Quote:
I read just last week about people who are about to be freed from death row because of DNA testing on evidence that has been sitting on a shelf for 30+ years. There are too many wrongfully convicted prisoners to endorse a death penalty.



*jumps about madly* EXACTLY!!!! THANK YOU!!! *super glomps Prometheus*

Quote:
heard something on the radio the other day that i thought was interesting:
an american is seeking asylum in canada because if he goes back to the US he will be executed. why? because he deserted the army.



There have been incidents like that before. I think my teacher once mentioned a case in which a criminal escaped (??? I think...) and ran to Canada, and the americans haven't been able to touch him, because Canada doesn't have capital punishment at all. I'm not sure on this one, so I'll have to check up on it.

And much glompage and thanks to Mistress Aurora for the many helpful links ^_^ You're hired!! biggrin

Oh, and Shawnie, underage at the moment, but I hear that Garrison's Jalapino Ale is quite interesting eek

~ Bobo


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bubblishis


False Eyelash
Location: New York City

Total posts: 346
Posted:I haven't read this thread all the way through. But....

Has anyone mentioned the racial breakdown of people on death row? Or, more specifically, the racist breakdown? Because let's be honest - some ethnicities get executed a whoooooole lot more often than others.

Not to mention that sometimes people get executed for crimes they did not commit.

Not to mention that since when is "an eye for an eye" an effective way of moving anyone forward?



All the freaky people make the beauty of the world.

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OrangeBobo
SILVER Member since Nov 2003

OrangeBobo

veteran
Location: Guelph, ON, Canada

Total posts: 1389
Posted:Oooh, here's some fun for you all. Answer ALL your questions... This link has almost 2000 links to Capital punishment sites. Much reading for all biggrin





Quote:
In 2002, 71 persons in 13 States were executed -- 33 in Texas; 7 in Oklahoma, 6 in Missouri; 4 each in Georgia and Virginia, 3 each in Florida, South Carolina, and Ohio; 2 each in Alabama, Mississippi, and North Carolina; and 1 each in Louisiana and California.





Of persons executed in 2002:

-- 53 were white

-- 18 were black





Of those executed in 2002:

-- 69 were men

-- 2 were women







Lethal injection accounted for 70 of the executions; 1 was carried out by electrocution.





Thirty-eight States and the Federal government in 2002 had capital statutes.













~ Bobo

EDITED_BY: OrangeBobo (1081197866)


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MillenniuM
GOLD Member since Jul 2003

MillenniuM

Hyperloops suck


Total posts: 595
Posted:Quote:
Most of these years are spent in the courts, which costs an insane amount of money. And the cost of facilities on Death Row is higher per inmate than in a typical jail.

Also, the death penalty simply does not work. A New York Times study found that in the last 20 tears, the homicide rate in states with the death penalty has been 48%-101% higher than in states without the death penalty.

Then there's the simple fact that mistake occur & innocent people die. What percentage risk or success rate would be acceptable to you?



You can pretty much get rid of all of the court costs you mentioned, as those costs would be exactly the same (Or so close in either direction, more or less, that it is negligable) if the person was given life imprisonment rather than capital punishment. The legal battles exist in life imprisonment too, ya know - and it isn't free.

The fact that the average death row inmate stays alive for 12 years or so is still besides the point... that doesn't prove by any means it is more expensive than keeping someone alive for 40+ years. I'd be willing to bet against that fact, actually. Unless two simple shots costs more than 28 years of food, water, and facilities... it's simply untrue.

As for your last point, is keeping an innocent person in an 8x10 cell for the rest of their entire life acceptable to you? I don't think so. How is this any different than the death penalty if we are talking strictly about wrongful punishment? Yet again, the point isn't exactly valid.

Obviously neither party is going to convince the other that they are wrong. When it comes down to it, it is a moral issue. I personally find it offensive the amount of money we spend in prison facilities. Please don't insinuate that I'd like to "kill off" prisoners in order to keep costs low... that is not my primary concern. There's a bajillion other prison reforms I believe should be put in to effect, primarily dealing with drug laws and punishments behind them. You guys seem to be giving quite a bit of information and assuming because one thing is true, another is as well. Just because you live 12 years on death row does NOT mean it costs more than keeping an inmate alive in prison.

As for all the points about doctors keeping prisoners alive so they can be killed, as well as other practices of the death row system: Those are flaws in the system of death row and the implimentation of capital punishment. Those are NOT flaws of capital punishment itself. People are raped and murdered in prison, that doesn't mean prison is a bad idea in general, does it?


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Dom
BRONZE Member since Dec 2001

Dom

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Bristol, UK

Total posts: 3009
Posted:Quote:
As for your last point, is keeping an innocent person in an 8x10 cell for the rest of their entire life acceptable to you? I don't think so. How is this any different than the death penalty if we are talking strictly about wrongful punishment?



Can you tell me, what is your response to the fact that innocent people die because of capital punishment?

If a mistake is discovered and a ruling over turned 20 years after sentancing you can open a cell door and say "Sorry, you're free to go." If you've killed them, what then?

Also, I can't recall my exact source (which always annoys me, but I believe it was the Sunday Times) but I have read that the legal course to convict and appeal death sentances are generally more protracted and costly than other convictions. The average appeal for a lifer is not 12 years, but that's what sometimes happens for decades on death row.

Anyway, cost shouldn't be an issue as the over riding one is my first question, which I'd like to hear your ideas on.


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OrangeBobo
SILVER Member since Nov 2003

OrangeBobo

veteran
Location: Guelph, ON, Canada

Total posts: 1389
Posted:Okay, Mill darl, I get where you're coming from, but if we're going to try and keep telling society that "killing is bad, don't do it" then why is the state allowed to kill someone??

Which is more moreally correct? Killing your wife because she cheated on you for several years after you devoted your whole life to her

or

getting injections that will stop you from breathing and your heart for pumping because your reason for life turned on you and back stabbed you.

The fact of the matter is that killing should not happen! And if we're not allowed to kill, then why is a jury and judge allowed to say "we find you guilty and sentance you to death by lethal injection". No killing should be done on either side. At ALL.

On a side (and much lighter) note, Dom, do you not think this thread should go to the Social Discission topic area?? I'll pm you about it...

hughug to Mill, even if you still don't get where I'm coming from, and even if you do understand but still dissagree. hug

~ Bobo


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MillenniuM
GOLD Member since Jul 2003

MillenniuM

Hyperloops suck


Total posts: 595
Posted:Quote:
Can you tell me, what is your response to the fact that innocent people die because of capital punishment?


I think it is a terrible thing that should quite obviously never happen. But the fact of the matter is, wrongful judgements are a part of the legal system. When people are convicted of a crime, no one says "You are 100% for sure no doubt guilty", they say it has been proven "beyond reasonable doubt". False-positives for guilt isn't the issue here, as that is a fault in the legal system, yet again, not a fault in capital punishment.

I understand your argument that you cannot bring someone back to life but you can remove them from jail, and it is a valid and strong one. In the bit of research I've done over the years, I've found that as a prisoner is given a certain amount of appeals to their case, the average of 12 years is more than enough time for them to meet their quota of appeals, and eventually be granted freedom from a wrongful punishment. Sure, there will always be the few cases out of how many thousands or hundreds of thousands where someone is freed after 30-ish years, but that number is quite insignificant in the long run. I'm trying to be a realist here, and if you let your emotions get in the way of common justice ("One wrongful death out of a billion isn't okay" is a childish argument, imho, as no matter what it will always be a problem), laws will be so watered down that guilty prisoners won't be treated harshly enough!

I'm sorry if this disgusts you, and it really might, and I can't blame you if it does... but I'd rather see 10,000 guilty prisoners treated the way they deserve with 1 innocent person dying, than 10,000 guilty prisoners treated better than they should be and zero innocent deaths.

Anyways, I'm a bit off topic...

Quote:
Also, I can't recall my exact source (which always annoys me, but I believe it was the Sunday Times) but I have read that the legal course to convict and appeal death sentances are generally more protracted and costly than other convictions. The average appeal for a lifer is not 12 years, but that's what sometimes happens for decades on death row.



Of course a capital punishment case will be longer and more expensive than the average cost of the average crime. Harsher crimes require rigorous deliberations. One thing that just kind of disproves your belief that capital punishment cases are more rigorous than life imprisonment ones is that almost all (over 99%) of death penalty cases are the exact same legal procedure as life imprisonment ones, all the way up until sentencing, which is simply a judge/jury decision, and requires no extra money (Source: My father, a lawyer for 20 years, as well as one of his random legal books). In short, the cost for a death penalty case is exactly the same as the cost for a life imprisonment case. This leaves only the actual imprisonment of a person VS them being put to death to make up the difference in cost, and I do believe that every single one of you would agree with me, given these facts, that it is cheaper to put them to death than to imprison them for life. I feel like you've read a misleading statistic which includes the trial money for the death penalty, but compares it simply to the imprisonment of a life imprisonment case.

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The fact of the matter is that killing should not happen! And if we're not allowed to kill, then why is a jury and judge allowed to say "we find you guilty and sentance you to death by lethal injection".



Erm, a bit of an emotionally fueled comment it seems, without much merit. I'm not allowed to lock you in a room for the rest of your life, but the courts are... does that mean prison should be disallowed? The state is given more power than citizens for a reason. Your argument appears sound on the surface, but when you really think about it, there are hundreds/thousands of things the government is allowed to do, but we as citizens cannot.

Quote:
Which is more moreally correct? Killing your wife because she cheated on you for several years after you devoted your whole life to her

or

getting injections that will stop you from breathing and your heart for pumping because your reason for life turned on you and back stabbed you.



Can you restate that please? I don't think I understand, a little bit too verbose wink

PS: HOP ate my post, this is a second edition. Parts of it are a bit off, you might have noticed... it was better the first time, I promise!


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Rouge Dragon
BRONZE Member since Jul 2003

Rouge Dragon

Insert Champagne Here
Location: without class distinction

Total posts: 13215
Posted:aims of legal sanctions:

- act as retribution/punishment
- protect community
- deterrance
- allow rehabilitation

shall i repeat the last one?


i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...

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Dom
BRONZE Member since Dec 2001

Dom

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Bristol, UK

Total posts: 3009
Posted:Quote:
Sure, there will always be the few cases out of how many thousands or hundreds of thousands where someone is freed after 30-ish years, but that number is quite insignificant in the long run.



Good points and all (I'm enjoying this discussion), but it's a question of where the line is. What ratio is acceptable? What if somebody you know, or yourself was part of that equation. Ultimately the entire purpose of the law is to protect society and the innocent. If the law assumes that innocents are allow to die, and that's all ok, then it becomes self defeating.

Quote:
and if you let your emotions get in the way of common justice


Not emotions, morals. If the law is based less on morals than upon money then we are all doomed. Unfortunately it seems to be moving that way. By using cost as a reason you're saying: "Lets kill somebody to save money." Probably about 0.1 cents a year of the tax you pay. I consider this pretty soulless.

If you want to look into costs here's an article. note: capital cases also mean those cases where a death penalty was sought but reduced to life. I tried to find a pro site that said it cost less, but couldn't find one on a quick search. Some pro sites agree that there is no cost or deterent benefit but don't care.

Looking around the web you can find a lot of pro and anti death penalty sites. Interestingly most of them use the same main argument: emotion. Althought the anti side seem a bit more reasonable and the pro sites tell you where to got o watch a execution frown

Which goes to show that humans are funny things and we'll never agree on anything. May we all live in interesting times!

I'm wondering if anyone here has a religious view on this. On one side religion has a big punishment and retribution side to it, but then there's the forgiveness aspect. If a sheep has strayed they must be bought back into the fold, and all that. Anyone?


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