ValuraSILVER Member
Mumma Hen
6,391 posts
Location: Brisbane, Australia

I have started this thread to explain a few things as to why I reacted the way that I did in the fire mistake thread and the drunk spinners thread... prehaps there are a few things that I want to let the people who took offence to what I was saying should know.

in my honest opinion you cant take safety too seriously.

I have seen KIDS burnt, clothes sticking to people, blood spurting from their faces, someone knock a tooth out, broken ankles from staffs, third degree burns and quite frankly I speak from experience.

But im also not going to cop any more [censored] for voicing the safety aspect of fire.

I apologised earlier in those threads for being agressive, and as I explained there was a reason behind it due to the fact that I copped a whhhooolllleee load of abuse from a member for expressing my opinion. (which btw I dont do very often, but by god when I do it, I will be passionate about it because I feel strongly about it)

a few weeks ago I got threatened with a lawsuit when I was administering first aid to a 8 year old child who had been burnt by a staff that a twirler had flung into the crowd. This was a MISTAKE. The twirler slunk off into the darkness and I copped abuse such as "[censored] firetwirlers the most dangerous bloody thing I have ever seen, wheres the [censored] safety? Ive been a firetwirler for five [censored] years and all these people just walking in and twirling and being [censored] proud of their stupid behaviour, I ought to sue your ass "

I was so taken aback because this is a mentality that I have been coming across a lot lately, yet when I say stuff about safety at burleigh and other circles I get met with a non commital "yeah" and whispers about safety nazi... eek

burleigh is now going to be policed with the view to being shut down due to drinking and dangerous practises there. The safe twirlers (and there are quite a few at the coast) are now loosing the one big meet at the coast that we had.

Not only that but we are also going to be constantly scrutinised at thepark we twirl at by ourselves by the cops cause all twirlers have a bad name according to the council now.

thats why I push safety. we have lost our freedom as twirlers here at the coast. we have lost the respect of the police and also the public because of a few twirlers who are not safety concious and have ruined it for all of us...

Yeah I overreacted in the other thread. I have apologised. But for one moment focus on this happening in YOUR area. Being shut down and having the cops called everytime that you tryed to express your creative art through fire. ho hum.

no Im not getting off my high horse.Im not preaching at you. Its up to you if you take it on board. ...quite frankly I dont care anymore.

Now Im not saying that ALL firetwirlers have a bad name. A whole heap of you are safe and take all this stuff into consideration...........yay for you thats ultra cool... biggrin

it's started here, and Im really aware of it in other places now cause I tried to get safety at burleigh for soooo long yet was always told where to go by other twirlers...thats why I get fired up about it, I cant go to the park now and spin cause of the actions of other twirlers... we need to try to keep our freedom through responsability

EDITED_BY: Valura (1080769411)

TAJ "boat mummy." VALURA "yes sweetie you went on a boat, was daddy there with you?" TAJ "no, but monkey on boat" VALURA "well then sweetie, Daddy WAS there with you"

becBRONZE Member
521 posts
Location: Brisbane, Queensland, Australia


I fully support your stance on safety and agree that it is imperative that we as a community do take responsibility for what is projected to the public/authorities.
Your views are neither extreme nor agressive and it is really disappointing to hear that not everyone else has the same awareness. frown

I wonder, though, how we can get this message through effectively? Many people who share these kind of views obviously have a personal respect for fire and an appreciation for its unpredictable nature, but others just shrug it off and seem to just be a fire accident just waiting to happen..
Certainly bad experiences can shock this kind of sense of responsibility into people, but they are the situations that we would all like to avoid..

It can be difficult trying to explain to people why they shouldn't do crazy things with fire (in particular I find it difficult to get any understanding for the dangers of fire breathing)... I've been subject to the mutterings about being a "safety nazi" too, and I know it just doesn't seem to sink in...
Spreading awareness and setting a clear example are really all we can do, but is this enough to stop things like the Burleigh closure?

In situations where uniformed-people-doing-silly-things-with-fire are the minority the message is very clear.. eg at moonfest last month when something stupid was happening a very clear resounding boo came from several groups of fireys, followed by some very clear reasons why one shouldn't fire twirl (first time with a lit staff) in a fluffy dogsuit confused

...but what can be done in situations where safety isn't the priority or the norm?
can we look for solutions before this problem spreads, because as Valura has said, and has experienced, it can effect us personally even if we are doing all we feel we can do to keep it safe... frown

GlåssDIAMOND Member
The Ministry of Manipulation
2,523 posts
Location: Bristol, United Kingdom

You speak from experience.
100% agree with you
100% support what your saying
and **hugs**
A smile

mechBRONZE Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
6,207 posts
Location: "In your ear", United Kingdom

*gets a jack*
*lifts valura higher up*
*hands her a megaphone*

im with you lady, first and formost for me is teh safty of other when i spin, and ok to meet me i am loud, sacry and boystrus, but when fire kicks in im always watching other, mkaing sute they are safe, ok and that there are no problems

then my safty, and this is also teh safty level of teh gear i am using, everything form what clothing i am wearing, to is my gear in fit enought condition to burn? chcks are done and so on, you may not see these, or relise, but i promise i do them!

but its like bec says, how do we get it into teh head of the spinners who are doing this, and throwwing staffs into teh crowd that they are [censored] dumb [censored]!

liek i said, safty is worth shouting about!

im with you valura hug

Step (el-nombrie)

RoziSILVER Member
100 characters max...
2,996 posts
Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia


I have acted as a safety for a couple of my friends in different situations. Sometimes it has been their first burn. Sometimes it has been for performances.

As a safety, you have to be straight and sober. And you have to not be so caught up in the performance that you can't see the spinner as a person, and the people around them. I have stood alongside security guards at performances, who were so wrapped up in what the performer was doing, they weren't watching the crowd. And some of those kids were getting a little close.

The point is, to be safety aware for yourself and others requires concentration. If no one is fulfilling that role for you, (like when you spin at a gathering), you have to do it yourself. That is very hard to do when you are under the influence, or simply feeling a bit scatty. I have gatherings where I don't spin fire because I know I am not concentrating, simply because of a long day at work.

It was a day for screaming at inanimate objects.

What this calls for is a special mix of psychology and extreme violence...

MedusaSILVER Member
1,433 posts
Location: 8 days at Cloudbreak, 6 in Perth, Australia

Totally agree with you Valura...those people who are not cautious enough will in due time find out just how wrong they really are.

I have seen people do stupid things when they are twirling drunk...not only do they put themselves at risk but everyone around them. I have never and will never lend my equipment to anyone who is enibriated.

You have my full support.

PyrolificBRONZE Member
Returning to a unique state of Equilibrium
3,289 posts
Location: Adelaide, South Australia

yep I agree with you too Valura, and sympathise with your predicament.

Truth is, there are plenty of good twirlers out there who simply arent aware of where they are or how close they are getting to people when they twirl. These people in particular need someone watching them.

Fire meets need a bit more hug and much less beerchug or else we are all gonna get spank


Help! My personality got stuck in this signature machine and I cant get it out!

Bender_the_OffenderGOLD Member
still can't believe it's not butter
6,979 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia

..but there's brave, selfless twirlers givin us good names too.
some are chickens smile

Laugh Often, Smile Much, Post lolcats Always

peaches**86943thats sooooo not where i parked my car...................
198 posts
Location: mareeba

yuh huhhhhhhhhhh!!!!! biggrin

we cant stop here its bat country!!!!!!!!!!!

Carpal \'Tunnel
15,414 posts
Location: United Kingdom

ditto Bender (but add the words "crazy but highly loveable").

9,232 posts
Location: NYC, NY, USA


It is frustrating when your chain is limited by the weakest link. I always felt that, even more so when you're spinning with a large group of people.

I think it's important to find people whom you trust and have similar safety views.

I've said it before, but we all know that there are selfish jerks in the planet, it just hurts a bit more when the crop up in a particular activity that we love. Especially when their actions directly affect your freedom.

One of the nice things about HoP is that you can see who says what... and earn respect for individuals as they express their beliefs.

You and yours can spin in my circle anytime Ms. Valura. biggrin

Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

ValuraSILVER Member
Mumma Hen
6,391 posts
Location: Brisbane, Australia


but there's brave, selfless twirlers givin us good names too.

some are chickens

some are exceptonal people who have strong spirits and open uplifting hearts and that make me smile. Plus they have cat eyes.


Mr NYC.... I shall be taking you up on that offer in august of 05 kiss

thanks for your support guys I was really downhearted about the whole thing cause I thought that everyone here thought I had turned into a belly grumble monster
EDITED_BY: Valura (1080786941)

TAJ "boat mummy." VALURA "yes sweetie you went on a boat, was daddy there with you?" TAJ "no, but monkey on boat" VALURA "well then sweetie, Daddy WAS there with you"

Carpal \'Tunnel
15,414 posts
Location: United Kingdom

only some though.....right?

*looks hopefull and giggles*

ValuraSILVER Member
Mumma Hen
6,391 posts
Location: Brisbane, Australia

kisses to you too ucof sweetheart kiss

TAJ "boat mummy." VALURA "yes sweetie you went on a boat, was daddy there with you?" TAJ "no, but monkey on boat" VALURA "well then sweetie, Daddy WAS there with you"

MikeGinnyGOLD Member
HOP Mad Doctor
13,923 posts
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA

you know, I might actually go to the Fire Marshall and say:

"Look, I'm a fire twirler. Now, when I spin, I always have a sober spotter who has a bucket of water, a wet towel, and a charged fire extinguisher in reach. We make sure that there is a minimum of 4 meters between the fuel dump and the performing area and we regularly check our equipment for flaws that could lead to failure. MOST fire performers do all of this.

"Now, there is a group of twirlers who meet at XXX every Saturday who spin drunk, don't have fire extinguishers, are sloppy about their fuel practices, etc. etc. etc. I've tried to drive home the point about the importance of safety over and over and over again and they don't listen. I am very afraid that someone is going to get hurt, or worse, someone is going to start a fire, and fire performers are going to get a very bad name out of it.

"I've personally decided that I'm not going to that gathering anymore because I don't want to be associated with such irresponsibility, but I thought you ought to know about that dangerous situation and I know that you'll take appropriate action."

That way, the Fire Marshall realizes that not all twirlers are complete numbskulls and something gets done about that gathering.


Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

A buckuht n a hooze! -Valura

spritieSILVER Member
2,014 posts
Location: Galveston, TX, USA

Well said Lightning. I think involving the fire marshall (or the australian equivalent) is a nice touch.

Whenever my group of friends here comes in contact with a new group of spinners in the area, we always try to make sure they know our fire safety standards, and if they are not up to par, we try to educate them. We have a monthly fire gathering where all in town are welcome, and when they come to play at this, they all respect our safety wishes (or else they will be told to leave, but luckily we have never had to do that).

38 posts
Location: Rockingham,Perth, WA, Australia

valura u should be standing on the moon.
i can admit that i can be cocky with fire sometimes. when i realise it i settle down.
fire hurts and safety is a HUGE issue. you can never be to safe. specially with fire as it is probally the most destructive thing in the world.

* buys valura a ticket to the moon*

Friday night is FIRE night...

Life ain't life without atleast cheating death atleast once a day.

Kapura MataaroHoP resident longboarder.
195 posts
Location: Tasmania, Australia

safety has become the number one thing that people take into consideration these days eek...and it is a good thing. but i'm a firm believer of trying to teach people by any mean possible be it a good way or not as long as the INFORMATION is right..i am hoping that someone eg: lady Valura herself, will pm. me because i would like to talk to someone about changing the way the salamanca crew plans their events... like many people i have seen people get hurt and we ourselves have been having police and council issues....we got it sorted though....we a said lady Valura, if you are interested i'm interested in talking to you in depth...and if i offended anyone with my previous post i apologise...i just don't like the soap box army..but i definately see why... biggrin beerchug

"surely a longboarding fire spinner should have no trouble getting some action!"- NYC....

pounceSILVER Member
All the neurotic makings of America's lesser known sweetheart
9,831 posts
Location: body in Las Vegas, heart all around the world, USA

i agree and support you 100% valura. i have nothing more to add smile


I was always scared with my mother's obsession with the good scissors. It made me wonder if there were evil scissors lurking in the house somewhere.

Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons for you are crunchy and good with ketchup.


206 posts
Location: UK

Having only spun with my poi boy I have not have the chance to see such irresponsiblity. We have on extisher, blanket and bucket of water on hand. You may see this as over safe but I like my skin and would like to keep it in the same condition that it is in now!

Dont be dumb with something that can kill. The world is going mas.

i agree with you 100% Valura. I would never drink and spin either. I am worth more than that!

Poi... it's an obsession.

883 posts
Location: Stevenage

I also agree! Fire still scares me although I love it!
I reserve fire for special occasions: which means my fire buddy is there (we both learnt the hard way) and so I usually just spin my practice poi! Also that way, spinning with practice poi means I can drink and la la!
There is no such thing as a Safety Nazi, it's a pointless comment and shouldn't mean anything to anyone! I get told I'm too responsible but I get the feel that that's why my friends like me, I'm the one that's there to help if needed though it can be abused at times!!!! spank
hug to all the saftey Nazi's wink

Monkeys monkeys and bananas

DuncGOLD Member
playing the days away
7,263 posts
Location: The Middle lands, United Kingdom


to meet me I am loud, scary and boystrus

No you're not you're a pussy cat! tongue

Right with ya V, your message is strong and purposeful. The minority ruin it for all the others, one piece of bad press is worth a thousand pieces of good press. And I think it's up to us to ensure it's not tolerated and set the ground rules at each meet and for each new member of that spin. Only other spinners can stop the irresponsible ones, and show them that they are not wanted.

And if you find that staffer who disappeared after hitting the 8yo with his stick make sure you give him(her?) a slap from me. Accidents happen, fair enough, staff do have the energy and potential to fly a long way even with all due care and attention, but to not take any responsibility, show any kind of sorrow or even be there to see what happened is unacceptable.

Keep it up girl, folk like you are needed more than you'll ever realise hug

Let's relight this forum ubblove

724 posts
Location: Rotherham, UK

I completely agree with you Valura.

When the Rotherham pip was first started we had no problems, but then some of the people who were turning up were being irresponsible and drinking and getting stoned before using fire. Everyone who was there noticed how irratic the spinning was by certain people in this crowd.
We ended up telling them that we didnt approve of drunken spinning, and ended up getting abuse about it.

As it turns out these people eventually realised what we had said was for their benefit as well as everyone else attending, they realised it was stupid and apologised which was good, and have promised not to come to the next one drunk. If they do, the same will happen, we won't tolerate it.

But due to this incident, a set of guidelines for the PiP was drawn up, making it clear that if you want to spin while intoxicated, do it away from the group or not at all. These guidelines were drawn up by onewheeldave as we made a group decision that we wouldn't tolerate it.

I don't want to spoil fun, or be seen as mardy or boring, but its common sense.
If people want to carry on with spinning fire while off their face then nothing you say to them will make them do otherwise, but you can at least try and advise.

In the park we use there are obviously a lot of curious kids around, i wouldnt want them to get hurt or anyone else for that matter.

The people who may read these posts and decide that we are being as Valura put it 'safety nazis'
should have more respect for others, you may think its safe, maybe you want to gamble on your own safety, but its not fair to do it to others.

Happy spinning weavesmiley biggrin

Only when the last tree has died
and the last river has been poisoned
and the last fish has been caught
will we realise that we
cannot eat money.

Cree Indian, 1909

3,149 posts
Location: London

Safety is obviously of extreme importantance. You should make sure you understand the risks in anything you do, particularly where it impacts on the safety of others.

But this thread makes me uneasy in exactly the same way the drunken firespinning thread does.

You all seem to react in favour of safety with something similar to religious fervour which doesn't really acknowledge our decision to willingly take unnecessary risk whenever we spin with fire.

Fire spinning is unnecessary risk taking which we do for fun

This perfectly illustrates that the acceptability of a risk is a subjective judgement that everyone must make for themselves.

There is such a thing as a safety fascist.
(though i certainly don't think Valura is one. Her concerns about the Burleigh firespinners seem entirely justified and i applaud the actions i've heard about)

Anyone who's dealt with European Health and Safety legislation will know that rolleyes

It's someone who will not allow you to take a risk with yourself that you consider acceptable, because they do not consider it acceptable.

If somebody tried to stop you firespinning at all, because they considered the whole idea far too dangerous, then they're a safety fascist. Any disagreements?

of course, if they're reasonably worried about their own safety or safety of others, that's another matter...

i'm worried about the attitude toward safety on this board. It seems that all pro-precaution statements are immediately lauded, and all anti-precaution statements are immediately condemened. Surely each and every safety issue is seperate and should be calmly and rationally judged on its own merits?

This may not seem like such a bad thing, but i believe it promotes a culture of silence, where responsible spinners overstate the amount of safety preparation they consider appropriate, to conform to the expectations of the board.

This produces unrealistic expectations, and may prompt those less responsible to consider us all Health and Safety Fascists, and possibly to ignore genuinely vital advice.

This is an extremely emotive issue. Most of us have seen what can happen when things go wrong. i've been lucky enough in the two years i've been spinning never to see anyone seriously hurt. i've seen many near misses.

We should all spin fire responsibly, and i would like people to put across a good image of firespinning. But i can't force anyone to. The very existence of firespinning is owed to the fact that WE choose what is dangerous and what is not for ourselves.

ps - Josh, i repeat my assertion that what spinning could do with is a lot less fire, not a lot less beer smile beerchug

"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."

onewheeldaveGOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom


As far as I'm concerned, if someone shows up at a gathering of me and my friends, then I'd rather they don't do stuff that me and my friends consider unnaceptable.

That includes spinning while drugged or drunk, and fire breathing. If they want to do those things then I'd rather they go somewhere else to do it, and there have been times when I've asked them to either stop or go away.

More usual, in this part of the world, is that the group is not just me and the kind of friends I know feel the same and will back me up.

In that situation it is difficult for an individual to take the initiative.

for example, last weekend I was at an event where the organisers had made it clear to me that in the allocated space they wanted no fire breathers, or spinners who were not on the list they drew up.

Towards the end a guy appeared and started to fire breath. The response from the group was not only to not do anything, but one person actually said something along the lines of 'Wow, fire breathing!"

It was left to me to communicate with this complete stranger, on my own, that fire breathing was not welcome here.

That's not a pleasant thing to have to do, not only is it hard to say 'no' to someone, there's also the risk that it could turn nasty.

This is in contrast to the incident at Rotherham PIP where, although I had to quickly make a decision to intervene, when I looked behind me I saw Ali, Andy and Mech came to back me up.

Most fire gatherings over here are pretty loose affairs, if bad incicdents leading to blanket clampdowns are getting common then my suggestions are: -

1. Get a core group together who are committed to turning up, having a consensus on what is acceptable and be prepared to stand up for, and back each other up in the event of disputes.

For me, that would include the following: -

a. No alcohol
b. No drugs
c. No fire breathing

and a request that newcomers turn up in the daylight phase of the meet, allowing you to get to know them a little and observe the level of their spinning skills.

if feasible, when the fire starts, take hazard tape to fence off an area, making it clear that the event is semi organised

In the event of someone doing one of the things that are unnaceptable, you need an individual who can be both polite, but firm, to approach and communicate with that person, with other members of the group standing behind to show solidarity.

If this is done from the first meet of a new event, then ther is little chance that things will get out of hand in the way that some meets have.

I'm not saying that every meet throughout the world has to conform to this, but, for those of you who do care about safety, who disagree with drunken spinning and breathing, making up a set of guidelines is an effective way to ensure that your group stays within the limits you set and doesn't get hijacked by others.

"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32

Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!

StoneGOLD Member
Stream Entrant
2,830 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Amen simian:

This may not seem like such a bad thing, but i believe it promotes a culture of silence, where responsible spinners overstate the amount of safety preparation they consider appropriate, to conform to the expectations of the board.

in the real world rolleyes

I don't think the main issue here is drugz as such. It's really more about dealing with rude and difficult people. I include drunks, arrogant pricks who take props without asking, kids without any fear of fire, ravers walking into the chains, and a whole lots other situations.

Any psych grads, seasoned performers or otherwise informed people with some practical tips for dealing with rude people???

If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh

[Nx?]BRONZE Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,749 posts
Location: Europe,Scotland,Both


sorry to hear about that valura, seems like its been comming to this for a while....

maybe this needs to go public, in order to stop it being against firspinning in general and start it being about a few unsafe individuals, maybe local press would be intrested, and youd be able to make your voice heard.

british fire spinners arnt the safest, peaple rarly have a blanket, never have an extingusher and have been found to be very intoxicaed sometimes.

on te other hand, we make good risk assesment, fuel safty is very good and peaple are very knoledgable about how to deal with differing emergencies. Peaple tend to be quite spacially aware aswell because a lot of playing goes on in crowded clubs (at least for the london crew)

what josh says about ggod spinner not watching is intresting. I have a friend who twirls staff, and he does it with his eyes shut. not so good when it comes to not hitting peaple. the thing is that my friend knows this, and always askes for a spotter if the crowd is busy.

I can also reomend mech for any fire spinning shenaigans, hes always sober, very alert and responsible and great at talking to the police! hug

right on valura, keep it up!

T wave

This is a post by tom, all spelling is deleberate
-><- Kallisti

64 posts
Location: Samos-Piraeus-Athens_Greece

What you say is nice and i agree.I think that accidents DO happen.I dont play that well but I live this period of my life in an island that juggling is something totaly out of space.
A few people know what it is.And the cops don't know eather.One time me and a couple of my friends where caught by police only because we were playing in a summer club(it was winter so it was closed but we didnt walk through any door).We were taken to the police station and we were waiting one hour for the owner to wake up and press or not press charges.One other time me and some other friends were playing in an open space near the port and guess what... The cops came and said----stop playing..---- we asked WHY? and they said----you don't have a reason to play!---We were in an open space there was no people around we were near by the sea and nothing could get burned.God it was so funny!We got the h... out of there totaly mad.It is ok.People here don't know.But when we play and people is watching they like what we do but they are careless about safety.What do i mean?They come very close to us and personaly I am scared i might hit them or burn them or whatever and I cant play as i want.When people are amatures and play in open spaces they should be very carefull but the people that watch should be carefull too.I am not a professional juggler, i could cause an accident and that the other people seem to not understand.There are the brave ones who take my poi and do firebreathing for the first time in there lives. confusedIt sucks!I don't want anyone to have an accident because of me but then I cannot say ''Hey leave my poi down and get lost''.I am very kind in these situations but my hole mood to play is turning against me and then i just pick my stuff and leave.... frown
safety is a big issue that has nothing to do with alkohol or anything if you know what you are doing,and you play alone or far from other people.But when you want to play just make sure that the people around understand that you are not a professional juggler and keep their kids beside them.Thanx a lot

The only thing constant in life is change...

ValuraSILVER Member
Mumma Hen
6,391 posts
Location: Brisbane, Australia


Fire spinning is unnecessary risk taking which we do for fun

simian sweetheart no one is saying that isnt true, what I am saying is that when we are doing the fire arts that everyone needs to be totally aware that our actions may also effect others around us and we need to be responsable for it.

WE are the ones twirling, and we are the ones that may drop it into the crowd as I have seen far too many times, then WE are the ones liable for it.
If this isnt the case why is it that we have firey insurance like duck for cover then?

TAJ "boat mummy." VALURA "yes sweetie you went on a boat, was daddy there with you?" TAJ "no, but monkey on boat" VALURA "well then sweetie, Daddy WAS there with you"

MikeIconGOLD Member
2,109 posts
Location: Philadelphia, PA - USA

I was just thinking. Maybe some of you guys who are really stressing safety to preserve freedom should try and start something governmentally. Try to get some kind of laws passed where you gotta have a license to spin fire. Would filter out a lot of the bad crowd and bring a bit of integrity back into being a spinner.

Let's turn those old bridges we crossed into ashes.
We'll blaze a new trail,
and torch the rough patches.


StoneGOLD Member
Stream Entrant
2,830 posts
Location: Melbourne, Australia

I think I got my thread's crossed and some of my previous comments got posted in the wrong thread, somehow confused

I would be shattered if we lost our circle. So, if things are as bad as you say, then you may have to find somewhere else for a while. You could talk to the cops about shutting it down for winter with a view to opening it at a later date. Alcohol is banned in most public places in Victoria due to previous bad behaviour. This will probably happen in Qld, which may not be a bad thing.

If we as members of the human race practice meditation, we can transcend our fear, despair, and forgetfulness. Meditation is not an escape. It is the courage to look at reality with mindfulness and concentration. Thich Nhat Hanh