Forums > Social Chat > The Problem with new spinners today...

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UCOFSILVER Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
15,414 posts
Location: United Kingdom


Posted:
Ive been spinning poi for a good two years now, and I am always more than willing to teach anyone who wants to learn.

Now a bit of background info: Sunbeam, Konsti (troubled badger notjingt to lose) and I (and also another friend) are all at University together.

Here there are many spinners.

The number is growing as well...

however, there is one thing that for some odd reason annoys me (well, not reallys annoys, more like its me being a bit grumpy)

Hyperloops.

I had been spininng for two years before these dumbfounded contraptions of moves were invented.

I learnt the "moves" in poi as most people do (2 beat/ chase, butterfly, corkscrew, 3 beat, 4, 5, etc) and then i learnt hyperloops.

But nowerdays people are wanting to learn Hyperloops straight away.

But I say NO!

My question to you is:

Is my saying NO! justified?

Should people, when learing this Poi malarky, start with easy moves or go straight into hard technicalised stuff?

Is there even a correct order in which to learn spinning?

*mandoratory suck up to not offend anyone coming up*

This post isnt aimed at ANYONE on here and i dont not mean to cause offence. If you dont like what im saying, then print up a t-shirt and tell the world. I dont care. wink

*mandatory suck up finished*

colemanSILVER Member
big and good and broken
7,330 posts
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kingdom


Posted:
good question.
long answer.
[Old link]. ubbangel


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i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood


FrodoBRONZE Member
old hand
1,092 posts
Location: In a van, United Kingdom


Posted:
ive been spinning for 10 months as u know ucof, should i be trying to learn technical stufF???

does 10 months qualify me? cause ??? cause ??? i wanna learn them, and have learnt a few and am progressing onto some crazy ones?

do i qualify? and am a a "new spinner"??

passing through, this world still lives.


DeepSoulSheepGOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
2,617 posts
Location: Berlin, Ireland


Posted:
I would say your better off having a good grounding in the basics first. But then I'm willing to admit I'm wrong.

Where do you draw the line? Can you do a thread the needle behind your head and back? How about a 4 beat behind your back or head?

Hyperloops are a family of moves and although technically more difficult, who's to say where they should be learnt in order. confused

There is the argument that poi moves reveal themselves to you over time and that's true but you often need the initial seed (or knowing something exists) or you could miss something.....I think. This isn't the same as been showing somthing like that though.

I live in a world of infinite possibilities.


Kitveteran
1,269 posts
Location: middle of Troon


Posted:
i hope not.... redfacep i've only been spinning since october! i think he means NEWbies like 'ooh i picked up poi last week show me hyperloops!'

random murbles

BELTANE FIRE FESTIVAL. 30th april ~ Calton hill - Edinburgh
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simian110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
3,149 posts
Location: London


Posted:
IMO (which stands for In Monkeys Opinon)

its not about what "moves" you have

its about the control you have over the poi

you can start with tangles before cross follow if you want and\or can

you might find it a bit tricky

but i know an ber juggler who did exactly that

and now he's rather good at them smile

"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."


mechBRONZE Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
6,207 posts
Location: "In your ear", United Kingdom


Posted:
i say if they want to lear n hyperloops teach them, its then not ur fault if they end up as a 5 trick woner, not knwoing how to spin properly!

still its you who will get bad mouthed! kiss

Step (el-nombrie)


laZyBRONZE Member
member
94 posts
Location: Somerset...... England


Posted:
I don't think that you can say that you cant learn the hard stuff first. But I kinda defeats the reason of calling them the advanced hard moves if they are learnt first. Plus it's a whole lot easier to learn hyperloops, wraps and isolations once youve got the basics done first. I have been spinning for just under eight months and would call myself a new spinner but at the same time I would call myself a good spinner. I would have loved to learn the hard stuff first but it's like trying to run when you can't walk. Now having got hyperloops under my belt I'm not that impressed and I don't really see what all the fuss is about.

laZy

as laZy as .....


Tao StarPooh-Bah
1,662 posts
Location: Bristol


Posted:
i don't think there's any right or wrong, people can learn whatever they want - if you won't teach them then someone else will.

but if they don't learn the basics first then they will be rubbish, basicaly. they will be able to do those tricks, but they won't be able to progress much in any direction till they know the building blocks.

people always ask me to teach them to do btb waeves before they can do a reverse weave - it's possible to learn btb forewards, but much harder, so i never teach till they can do both forewards and reverse. I could try teaching fwd btb, but they normally find it too hard and just give up - it's in people interest to learn properly if they want to take it further.


However if they just want to learn that trick, it's really up to them, they know what they want, and as long as you've explained to them the progression why shouldn't they learn whatever they want?

I had a dream that my friend had a
strong-bad pop up book,
it was the book of my dreams.


DuncGOLD Member
playing the days away
7,263 posts
Location: The Middle lands, United Kingdom


Posted:
humph....more like the problem with old spinners today tongue

No seriously....different people develop at different rates. Personally I've been learning for *counts fingers* 9 months and had the 5 beat fwd/bkwd basic weave nailed within a cuple days of trying and that was about 2 months after I started spinning....but....I only saw a hyperloop being done about 2 weeks ago and nailed it reasonably quick. But could I do it because I've now been spinning consistently for the last 9 months and have the technique or just because they're actually incredibly easy to do?? confused If I had seen them done earlier I'm sure I would have nailed it earlier but of course I'll never find out now.

So in answer to your question....

"....people are wanting to learn Hyperloops straight away. But I say NO! ......is my saying NO! justified?"

No. I don't think so. I think if they want to learn show them how to pull off the move, explain the basics of it but explain your thoughts on the importance learning the basics and technique first. Do you have structured lessons? Then make sure that hyperloops aren't in them.
Don't stop spreading the knowledge of moves, you could be holding up the next poi prodigy!! weavesmiley

Let's relight this forum ubblove


[Nx?]BRONZE Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,749 posts
Location: Europe,Scotland,Both


Posted:
yeah. I think you can teach anyone anything they want. weather they can do it is another matter, and you might suggest a few things to get them there...

so the kids want hyperloops, give them to them, watch thoes planes. give them heavy poi to practice with too, if you can do it you can, and thats great, you kneed joy in your poi to put the hours in to realise your planes. peaple find them in the end, but mainly through trying to learn tricks that are too hard for them.

besides, if something is really difficult then you should straight right away, cos its gonna take ages. eek

Later madam bovery

T wave

p.s. isolations are always good, they are damm hard and take a few months of practice at least, its shure to get teh newbie going, one way or the other... hehehe wink

This is a post by tom, all spelling is deleberate
-><- Kallisti


onewheeldaveGOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,252 posts
Location: sheffield, United Kingdom


Posted:
I think that many of what we call advanced moves aren't necessarily harder to learn than the basics if they're taught properly.

It took me 3 months to learn a reverse 3-beat and I've occasionaly taught it to someone in an hour.

I don't think that one handed butterfly combinations are technically more difficult than 3 beat stuff.

I've recently been teaching a girl who's got a lot of potential who's picked up the basics really quickly, last week I started to show her how to do releases/throws.

On the other hand I was recently showing someone else some basics but she was constantly asking how to do five beats. I found it a little annoying as I was trying to help her achieve a more relaxed and stable three beat.

To me, she really needed to sort out her 3 beat before working on getting extra beats in and my feeling was that I was wasting time which could be spent either teaching someone else more willing to listen, or practising my own stuff.

Whereas, the first girl put in a lot of effort to learn the basics I showed her and made a big effort to put thought into learning to slow down the moves as I suggested, so I was totally happy to spend more time teaching her and introduce her to some release moves.

Part of why I wanted her to try this was to satisfy my own curiosity about whether releases are genuinely advanced or whether it's just a tradition to teach them last.








"You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it."

--MAJOR KORGO KORGAR,
"Last of The Lancers"
AFC 32


Educate your self in the Hazards of Fire Breathing STAY SAFE!


RovoGOLD Member
(the person actually known as Chris Bailey)
544 posts
Location: Austin, TX, USA


Posted:
I think everyone should get a firm grasp of the basics before trying anything technical and complicated. If someone doesn't have a firm grasp of your basic 3-beat weave. Meaning making look clean, not having problems, being able to move the planes around and all the tweeks to it. When they get to harder more technical moves its gonna be that much harder to control the planes keep it looking clean and even from looking good at all.

I think if you havn't been spinning for long and are just starting make sure you have everything down before you move on to more technical stuff. It will help you learn moves in the long run.

I made the mistake of not learning my windmills and corkscrews clockwise when i first started and had to go back and relearn those moves. Believe me it was frustrating.

Peace, Love, Circles


Tao StarPooh-Bah
1,662 posts
Location: Bristol


Posted:

Quote:

I think everyone should get a firm grasp of the basics before trying anything technical and complicated.




true - but not everyone plans to take it on full time - some people just want a couple of moves to lear.

on the other hand, most people don't realise when they start just how addictive it is!

Quote:

I made the mistake of not learning my windmills and corkscrews clockwise when i first started and had to go back and relearn those moves. Believe me it was frustrating.




believe me, i know! i had to spend a good 6 months relearning every trick i knew backwards - it was annoying and also completely POIntless, cos i sould have done them as i went along. that's why it's important to have someone tech you before you jump in alone.

I had a dream that my friend had a
strong-bad pop up book,
it was the book of my dreams.


SpitFireGOLD Member
Mand's Girl....and The Not So Shy One
2,723 posts
Location: Calgary, Alberta Canada


Posted:
Personally, when I teach, I bring spinners through the basics first, to give them a foundation from which to build upon.

Different spinners learn at different speeds. I am a slow learner, and I know this. I am a decent spinner, in my opinion.

I'm not a trick spinner, though I love learning new tricks. What I've been told I do and do well is move and dance with the poi. Oh and rolly pollies too. biggrin

Seriously, though, I am not able to teach folks hyperloops because I'm not there, nor am I able to teach isolations.

I can teach behind the back reverse weave, but not btb forward.

Unless the spinner in question seems to be comfortable and smooth with reverse to forward weave turns, I tend to hold off on the extra beat moves until their planes seem decent, and they've relaxed.

HOWEVER, as I said earlier, different people learn at different speeds, so I've had to learn to be flexible.

One of my friends/students has an amazing grace to his spinning. He's probably close to the level I'm at as a spinner, and has been at it for less than a year. He can even move, and dance as he spinns, which is totally amazing to me. It took me about a year to really start moving with it...but then...I'm a slow learner. biggrin

Now that I've rambled, and written a novel...I'm going to finish eating my breakfast.

Solitude sometimes speaks to you, and you should listen.


SpannerBRONZE Member
remembers when it was all fields round here
2,790 posts
Location: in the works... somewhere..., United Kingdom


Posted:

Non-Https Image Link




Jon, this morning*



Quote:

Hyperloops.



I had been spininng for two years before these dumbfounded contraptions of moves were invented.






OK, my neck needs a stretch biggrin



No-one invented hyperloops!



I know this because I used to do hyperloops with lengths of rope many years ago, before I even knew what poi were. But that doesn't mean I invented hyperloops, does it?



You could even say it was the first ever "move" I learned. At the time it didn't look like it could be of much use to anyone so I stopped doing it. When I found poi, I read hyperloop instructions which confused me into no longer being able to remember how I originally did them, although i know it's definitely the same move. Is this the right way to learn?



Anyway, that's how it happened for me frown



(*only joking luv wink )

"I thought you are man, but
you are nice woman.

yay,

:R"


UCOFSILVER Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
15,414 posts
Location: United Kingdom


Posted:
replace "invented" with "got popular"

this means that you have now got to take out the "were" in the sentence as well, but you know what i mean.

NYCNYC
9,232 posts
Location: NYC, NY, USA


Posted:
I'm always amazed at how fast I can teach someone to learn moves.

I think I taught what took me a year to a certain someone in a weekend. And not even very much time on the weekend too.

To answer your question, YES, you are justified in saying "No" to teaching a newbie spinner tricks before they are ready.

When teaching chemistry, I've got tons of tricks that I COULD tell the kids to allow them to get the 'right answer' on an exam without actually learning the concept. Of course, I don't tell them the tricks until AFTER I feel that they've learned the concepts. And the same is true for poi.

As a poi teacher I feel that I have a responsibility to teach theory and philosophy as well as 'moves'. And if you're not willing to buy into that, then go find another teacher. smile

Or UCOF, you could just be a jerk about it which is always fun... just keep saying things like:

-"Here, watch me!" [And do the hyperloop slightly differently every time]
-"You're thinking about it too much! Just let your mind clear"
-"Let the poi move you"
-"You've almost got it... try it faster and closer to your face."
-"Visualize it"
-"Be the poi"
-"Yup, that's it!" [When they clearly can't do it]
-"Watch, 1,2,3,3,2,1!" [Just count randomly while doing the trick for no apparent reason]
-"Try it without the poi first"
-"It doesn't work unless they're on fire"
-"I learned that in London, I can't teach it in New York" [Works for me only]
-"Which move did you want to learn? This one?!" [And then continue doing the wrong trick] "Or this one"?

Hee hee... the list continues... and yes, I do realize that I'm giving the entire London Crew ammo for the next time I ask them to explain a trick. tongue

I got a DJ friend that works in clubs and whenever someone asks him for a request he always says one of two things... either "Yo, I just played that" or "I'm gonna put that on next"... Translate it to poi and use as necessary. biggrin

But again, that's just me being silly. I do think we have a responsibility to incorporate proper philosophy and technique in teaching as well as showing where to put your hands for a hyperloop.

ubbangel

Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]


colemanSILVER Member
big and good and broken
7,330 posts
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kingdom


Posted:
Quote:

No-one invented hyperloops!






[Old link]

[Old link]

[Old link].



said a random b-boy with the knowledge...







[edit:



-"Watch, 1,2,3,3,2,1!" [Just count randomly while doing the trick for no apparent reason]



ubblol



i so do that one!

not on purpose though ubbangel]
EDITED_BY: coleman (1079018783)

"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood


mechBRONZE Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
6,207 posts
Location: "In your ear", United Kingdom


Posted:
Quote:

Quote:

No-one invented hyperloops!






[Old link]

[Old link]

[Old link].



said a random b-boy with the knowledge...







[edit:



-"Watch, 1,2,3,3,2,1!" [Just count randomly while doing the trick for no apparent reason]



ubblol



i so do that one!

not on purpose though ubbangel]






pats cole n head (standing on toes) there there cole its ok have a biscuit


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biggrin

Step (el-nombrie)


polytheneveteran
1,359 posts
Location: London/ Surrey


Posted:
Ok, wasn't gonna post in here... but I didn't know there would be biscuits... biggrin

The optimist claims that we are living in the best of all possible worlds.
The pessimist fears this is true.

Always make time to play in the snow.


UCOFSILVER Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
15,414 posts
Location: United Kingdom


Posted:
munch...

this is turning into an intro thread, now there is all this talk of biscuits...

rolleyes

mechBRONZE Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
6,207 posts
Location: "In your ear", United Kingdom


Posted:
well i thought it was getting a lil tence, and a lil starngly circular in argument, and as a newbie! felt that to apease the older wiser spinners that biccies would be good!



esp HOBKNOBS


Non-Https Image Link
both milk and...


Non-Https Image Link

Step (el-nombrie)


DurbsBRONZE Member
Classically British
5,688 posts
Location: Epsom, Surrey, England


Posted:
Quote:


-"Try it without the poi first"





Best way to teach the weave IMHO...

But otherwise I agree with Jon.

If I'm teaching (which I LOVE more than spinning sometimes) I'm always strict on nailing the basics. Same when I'm teaching drum-kit - Pupils always put on their current favourite track (often Blink 182) and ask me to teach them that. Ok, Blink's an extreme cos it takes practice to get to those speeds, but what's the point in teaching them a song if they can't even play a basic groove.

You could teach a child to play Mozart, but it wouldn't mean they could play piano...

Burner of Toast
Spinner of poi
Slacker of enormous magnitude


mechBRONZE Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
6,207 posts
Location: "In your ear", United Kingdom


Posted:
not at all jon, this thread is just repeating what countelss threads have already said, that older spinners resent the fact that somtimes moves they have talken a long tim eto learn are being nailed by newbies cos they have been well rehearsed, and can be tought better than some one taught you cos they were new!

belive me man, this aint an attack, and while anyone i have asked has always shown me moves, i like somple moves to look good before i go to higher moves like hyerloops and so on, but i will learn them, and then teach others, but pls dont tar all newbies with same brush, see i bring biccies to win you over! biggrin

Step (el-nombrie)


mechBRONZE Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
6,207 posts
Location: "In your ear", United Kingdom


Posted:
im deffo with you durbs on teh drum kit, i have ppl who think that drumming is easy, and tha tyou will be playing blink, incubus, or any kind of music staright off, and yes i teach basics over anything, i throw you in first to learn that spinning well is hard, then i pull you back and teach them basic!

Step (el-nombrie)


DeepSoulSheepGOLD Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
2,617 posts
Location: Berlin, Ireland


Posted:
Quote:

-"Here, watch me!" [And do the hyperloop slightly differently every time]
-"You're thinking about it too much! Just let your mind clear"
-"Let the poi move you"
-"You've almost got it... try it faster and closer to your face."
-"Visualize it"
-"Be the poi"
-"Yup, that's it!" [When they clearly can't do it]
-"Watch, 1,2,3,3,2,1!" [Just count randomly while doing the trick for no apparent reason]
-"Try it without the poi first"
-"It doesn't work unless they're on fire"
-"I learned that in London, I can't teach it in New York" [Works for me only]
-"Which move did you want to learn? This one?!" [And then continue doing the wrong trick] "Or this one"?




ubblol ubblol ubblol

Man your one funny Pimp. Had me laughing out loud there....I'm so gunna use them. ubblol

I live in a world of infinite possibilities.


pounceSILVER Member
All the neurotic makings of America's lesser known sweetheart
9,831 posts
Location: body in Las Vegas, heart all around the world, USA


Posted:
ok i have two replies....

my initial thought is ya jon, i think you're justified. whenever i teach someone poi, i tell them to learn the basics first because most everything else builds off that.

however....

somethings durbs said struck me.....
Quote:

You could teach a child to play Mozart, but it wouldn't mean they could play piano...





i was one of those child geniuses (so to speak) when it came to piano. i'm no rachmaninoff or beethoven, but it was one of those things i just got. i even thought about quitting at some point and my piano teacher BEGGED me to not. she tried to teach me my scales, keys, technique, theory, all that crap. and i just couldn't get it. i'd learn it for maybe 10 minutes...long enough to make her think i understood, but then it got away from me. i couldn't tell you what a single chord is or what key a piece is in. but i can play. it's one of the few things i do well enough to actually take pride in and (humbly) boast about. so in that respects, i think there are people who can learn isolations and hyperloops and btb 5 beat and all that stuff i'm crap at ubblol without learning the very basics. (they're the kind of people who REALLY frustrate me just cause i'm such a slow learner at poi and i wish i could be like them! ubblol )

I was always scared with my mother's obsession with the good scissors. It made me wonder if there were evil scissors lurking in the house somewhere.

Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons for you are crunchy and good with ketchup.

**giggles**


Tao StarPooh-Bah
1,662 posts
Location: Bristol


Posted:
Quote:

When teaching chemistry, I've got tons of tricks that I COULD tell the kids to allow them to get the 'right answer' on an exam without actually learning the concept. Of course, I don't tell them the tricks until AFTER I feel that they've learned the concepts. And the same is true for poi.





ok, i agree with taking it seriously, but isn't that just a little bit too much like school? it's not like we're actually taking exams in this stuff, and if we had to then it wouldn't be fun anymore. Sure if someone asks you to teach them 'properly' then do it that way - but when someone obviously wants to learn a specific move i don't see any harm in just teaching it to them. Most people will go away and practice and they can sort out their planes on their own, but they only have so much time with a teacher and i know i certainly want to gather as many tricks as possible when i'm out, and take them home to practice.

all that you must learn it properly first! sounds a bit heavy to me.

i appreciate the value of learning well, but in the long run someone will develop ok if they're natural, no matter which trick they learnt first.

I had a dream that my friend had a
strong-bad pop up book,
it was the book of my dreams.


colemanSILVER Member
big and good and broken
7,330 posts
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay, United Kingdom


Posted:
Quote:

Most people will go away and practice and they can sort out their planes on their own, but they only have so much time with a teacher and i know i certainly want to gather as many tricks as possible when i'm out, and take them home to practice.




what a great point miss star biggrin

it hasn't really been mentioned in the teching moves thread (which is like this one but with a larger scope and more spiritual/philosophical viewpoints).

"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood


Tao StarPooh-Bah
1,662 posts
Location: Bristol


Posted:
yay! i made a good point! biggrin

I had a dream that my friend had a
strong-bad pop up book,
it was the book of my dreams.


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