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remembers when it was all fields round here
Location: in the works... somewhere...
Member Since: 27th Feb 2003
Total posts: 2790
Posted:Scandal Of The Anthrax Babies

I only found this while searching under "Gosport", where I'm about to move to. Has anyone heard anything else?



"I thought you are man, but
you are nice woman.

yay,

:R"

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Pooh-Bah
Location: Bristol
Member Since: 30th May 2003
Total posts: 1662
Posted:that's scary.

it;s like that think on bbc about thalidomide. After all the tragedies it cause n the 70's, nit they've taken it to 3rd world countries with leprosy and started giving it to them!!!! and surpirse surpries exactly the same stuff is happening.

IMHO they hand out 'quick fix' drug way too easily. Obviously noone want to get anthrax or leprosy, but they're a bit to trigger happy with the old hypodermic methinks.


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it was the book of my dreams.

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dR pSYcHo
dR pSYcHo

member
Location: Nottingham (UK)
Member Since: 18th May 2003
Total posts: 88
Posted:Okay, hopefully this won't get too heated but still.

I went and cheked this out since the UK media has just a "wee" tendency to jump on anecdotal case reports and repeat them as gospel. I take the specific example of MMR. Now this may be contentious but I assure you that I'm not part of some big medical conspiracy to cover up the truth (as was suggested by that bloody awful C5 program - DANGEROUS is what that was). The original research had one passing reference about a "possible" link between autism and MMR which the media jumped on. Since that time I have read reports from all over the world some involving more than 15, 000 children and they Have found NO CAUSAL link . However do you think this is touched upon in the british media. No! Why, because it doesn't make good news (oh wait, once I saw something at the bottom of p13 of the Guardian). The way this scare was handled was not ideal by all sides, but autism & asbergers are on the increase because we are recognising it more, the large increases in cases co-incide with discoveries of autistic spectrum syndromes such as asbergers & increases in literature on the subject. Before these kids were just "badly behaved". The risk of single jab vaccines are high cause of "herd immunity", without it all children, whether they are vaccinated or not, are at risk. To be honest; Mumps, measles and Rubella are bloody aweful diseases with crippling long term consequences that can suddenly affect people up to 20 years later! I do feel for these families (trust me; there's a LOT of autism in my family), but the age of diagnosis for autism does happen to be around the age of immunisation. And you stand a far greater chance of being hit by a car/dying in RTA, but you don't stop driving your children do you?

So anyway, I checked this out; We have some slightly underpowered studies, involving around 5000 or so servicemen, and more indepth cohort studies; and so far NO SIGNIFICANT RISK of adverse events in pregnancy. These things are more likely to have arisen by chance. & to be honest, having been forced to study embryology and pregnancy, I am surprised the whole thing works at all!

Please don't believe everything that's written in the papers spank, it all tends to be highly skewed. If your concerned go and find the primary sources/evidence yourself and make up your own mind. (not meaning to diss any journalists out there ubbloco)

Rant fin ubblol


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dR pSYcHo
dR pSYcHo

member
Location: Nottingham (UK)
Member Since: 18th May 2003
Total posts: 88
Posted:Oh yeah - Thalidomide..

The 70's was tragic; BUT in properly selected individuals this is a highly effective drug for leprosy and is currently being used for some anti-cancer regimens. Of course you need to make sure that people don't get pregnant on it, but leprosy is a huge prob world-wide; I don't see why we should be afraid of using a drug that can work IF USED PROPERLY.

Man, revision is getting to me ubbloco


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remembers when it was all fields round here
Location: in the works... somewhere...
Member Since: 27th Feb 2003
Total posts: 2790
Posted:(I'd just like to make it clear that reading this article doesn't affect whether I'll move there or not, but I'm still following the story).

I don't quite know what to make of it myself. It does say that "not one pregnancy has been trouble-free since the war". The relevance depends what is meant by trouble, though they to imply it means "Deaths, still-births, miscarriages, physical defects and sickness". Which is worrying anyway.

Maybe it was a bad batch? Also, I wouldn't be surprised if the formula had changed between the Gulf Wars either. Even some patients with regular jabs find that they are given an "improved" version of the drugs they need, but the ones they began on originally are no longer available, regardless of whether they experience worse side-effects than the old ones.

I suppose it could be the jab, or it could be another factor, though it seems the problems are confined to 33 Field Hospital. Another thing is that their base directly adjoins a military hospital and defence research agency, but I've heard nothing about those, so I think an inquiry is in order to make sure.


"I thought you are man, but
you are nice woman.

yay,

:R"

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frostypaw
Great balls of fire
Location: Tunbridge Wells, Kent
Member Since: 28th Jul 2003
Total posts: 643
Posted:Quote:
that's scary.

it;s like that think on bbc about thalidomide. After all the tragedies it cause n the 70's, nit they've taken it to 3rd world countries with leprosy and started giving it to them!!!! and surpirse surpries exactly the same stuff is happening.

IMHO they hand out 'quick fix' drug way too easily. Obviously noone want to get anthrax or leprosy, but they're a bit to trigger happy with the old hypodermic methinks.


Thalidomide is a wonderdrug - it really is amazing - do you know any other painkillers you could eat like candy and have no bad side effects at all?

It just screws up the pregnancy thing - there's lots of drugs you shouldn't get pregnant on. It's a horrendous thing when that does happen - but it's still one of the most incredible chemicals we've ever created.

Gets more complicated than that too... thalidomide DOES NOT cause the birth defects - but it's optical isomer (molecular mirror-image) DOES. The trouble is it's very very hard to seperate the two

Damn shame frown but seeing as how it clears leprosy when nothing else does would you complain?


I can SEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!

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Pooh-Bah
Location: Bristol
Member Since: 30th May 2003
Total posts: 1662
Posted:i realise all the good it does, but what i gathered from the programme was that they were using it themselves, not having been told about the history. There were loads and loads of cases of children with defects because of the lack of educaiton. They just didn't learn from it.

it's like what nestle did with bottle milk, writing the insructions in the wrong language with no pictures type of thing.


I had a dream that my friend had a
strong-bad pop up book,
it was the book of my dreams.

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dR pSYcHo
dR pSYcHo

member
Location: Nottingham (UK)
Member Since: 18th May 2003
Total posts: 88
Posted:Grrrrrrr.... mad

Don't get me started on the whole Nestle baby milk thing (It'll be a long rant!!)

Remember kids; Boycotts do work, no matter what big buisiness tries to tell you!


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Pooh-Bah
Location: Bristol
Member Since: 30th May 2003
Total posts: 1662
Posted:Yay!

i've been boycotting nestle for 3 years and so should you !!!!


I had a dream that my friend had a
strong-bad pop up book,
it was the book of my dreams.

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Narr
Narr

(*) (*) .. for the gnor ;)
Location: sitting on the step
Member Since: 15th Apr 2003
Total posts: 2568
Posted:i was always told breast feeding is best *shrug*



on the topic of this thread though ... sounds like it may be another ..umm damn whats that illness ..Gulfwar syndrome?

where lots of gulf war soldiers are ill and its thought that it is caused by the cocktail of jabs they had ...



is that just coincidence too then?


she who sees from up high smiles

Patrick badger king: *they better hope there's never a jihad on stupidity*

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remembers when it was all fields round here
Location: in the works... somewhere...
Member Since: 27th Feb 2003
Total posts: 2790
Posted:Here's the latest... seems the soldier who made these claims has been moved to an alternative posting. umm

"I thought you are man, but
you are nice woman.

yay,

:R"

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dR pSYcHo
dR pSYcHo

member
Location: Nottingham (UK)
Member Since: 18th May 2003
Total posts: 88
Posted:Quote:
i was always told breast feeding is best



That's because it is!! We are taught from the moment you hold a steth that Breast is best hence one of the BIG probs with Nestle; but thats off the thread and I think Nestle bashing should be left to another one (since I for one wil quickly go off on a long rant!)

Interesting twist on the story though. I think cause the media jumped on it really. As I said; they report one case and ignore the wealth of evidence based resources. I'm not saying it couldn't ever happen (there are relatively few certainties in this world, other than our own mortality really), just even with those figures they should be compared against a background of age matched controls. I mean, the story does not mention ANYWHERE the total number of pregnancies that occured in that time frame (or the rate of those occurances in a normal unexposed population); and sadly there are many other more common reasons for all the things they discribed; the most common of which being spontaneous. There is an expectation (quite naturally) for all pregnancies to be normal, and when they're not it's natural to look for reasons.

A kinda example of this could be food poisoning; You are always more likely to blame the food you haven't eaten before, rather than the actual offending culprit (be it unwashed salad, your soup starter, the sweaty looking guy on the table opposite or the handle of the door exiting the loos). Human nature to naturally fear the unfamiliar.

Gulf-war syndrome is another kettle of fish altogether. Part of the trouble is we don't know exactly what they were given (it's classified I believe), other than a right old cocktail; and I don't think I know enough at the moment to really comment other than it is a recognised and accepted syndrome now. I'll go and check out the research when I'm going cookoo over revision ubbloco

Later people biggrin


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Doc Lightning
Doc Lightning

HOP Mad Doctor
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Member Since: 28th May 2001
Total posts: 13920
Posted:In any event, Gulf War Syndrome is mis-named. It has been known to occur after every major campaign. Similar symptoms have been described in soldiers dating as far back as Ghengis Khan. It is unlikely that it has to do with any specific chemical exposure because, mechanistically speaking, there's no way any chemical could produce such signs and symptoms.

The following is from Ruddy: Kelley's Textbook of Rheumatology, 6th ed. , Copyright 2001 W. B. Saunders Company

Quote:
The epidemic of Gulf War illness that occurred in troops deployed to the Persian Gulf in 1990 and 1991 affords an excellent example of how illnesses such as fibromyalgia and chronic fatigue syndrome may be "triggered." To review, in 1990 and 1991, the United States deployed approximately 700,000 troops to the Persian Gulf to liberate Kuwait from Iraqi occupation. Fortunately, there were relatively few combat-related injuries and diseases during this conflict, but up to 45 percent of deployed veterans (compared with 15 percent of nondeployed veterans) developed a constellation of symptoms and syndromes including muscle and joint pain, fatigue, memory problems, headaches, and gastrointestinal complaints. This experience was not unique to U.S. troops; veterans of this conflict from the United Kingdom experienced a similar increase in this spectrum of illness. Several expert panels have been convened to examine these illnesses. There is agreement that this is not a single illness but rather a constellation of symptoms and syndromes similar to that seen in fibromyalgia and CFS. There is no single environmental exposure that is likely to have contributed to this illness. Instead, data from many sources suggest that certain persons who are exposed to stressors, including infections or other types of immune stimulation, drugs or chemicals, physical trauma, or emotional stress, will develop a chronic multisystem illness.



-Mike )'(
Certified Mad Doctor and HoP High Priest of Nutella

"A buckuht 'n a hooze!" -Valura

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