Forums > Technical Discussion > out with the old in with the less painful
Login/Join to ParticipateFlaming Lesbian
181 posts
Location: Portland, Oregon
181 posts
Location: Portland, Oregon
Posted:
i was out looking everywhere for ballchain. nobody had any.
my cable poi are pretty darned raggid by now, and they leave cuts on me when i do wraps, so i decided to go with something new.
i couldn't find any ballchain heavier than celingfan pullchain, but, i did find some small welded link chain, so i thought i'd give it a shot.
this stuff is beautyful, it's heavy as hell compared to my cables, but the weight helps the poi flow more gracefully, imesho. (i was able to do a reverse 3bt weave without hitting myself because they went so slow)
and it dosen't hurt when i do wraps. why does everybody hate welded link chain so much?
i was out looking everywhere for ballchain. nobody had any.
my cable poi are pretty darned raggid by now, and they leave cuts on me when i do wraps, so i decided to go with something new.
i couldn't find any ballchain heavier than celingfan pullchain, but, i did find some small welded link chain, so i thought i'd give it a shot.
this stuff is beautyful, it's heavy as hell compared to my cables, but the weight helps the poi flow more gracefully, imesho. (i was able to do a reverse 3bt weave without hitting myself because they went so slow)
and it dosen't hurt when i do wraps. why does everybody hate welded link chain so much?
Lights dancing off my skin as chains wrap round it.
Pain is in a little box and I'm so glad I found it.
SILVER Member
That guy from Reno
556 posts
Location: Reno, Nevada USA
That guy from Reno
556 posts
Location: Reno, Nevada USA
Posted:
I'm sure the ball chain enthusiests will come to the table with some very good points but your question made me think. Why do you need light poi? Granted props depend on personal style and were only talking about fire poi right?. My style is hardcore and extereme. My poi use lots of of fire and have lots of weight. I don't think light weight = speed. I bet I can keep up with anyone with my boat anchors, but I have been training for over 6 years. The extra weight makes isolations more natural and allows me to move within my pattern.
Poi isn't an endurance race, or a race at all. If you can't make it through a burn because you get tired, you need to train more.
I don't think people who use ball chain have given "link" chain a good try. Or they fail to see the benefits.
And don't cop out on "wraps". I do neck wraps with heavy link chain all the time.
(There that should help spark a good healthy debate)
I'm sure the ball chain enthusiests will come to the table with some very good points but your question made me think. Why do you need light poi? Granted props depend on personal style and were only talking about fire poi right?. My style is hardcore and extereme. My poi use lots of of fire and have lots of weight. I don't think light weight = speed. I bet I can keep up with anyone with my boat anchors, but I have been training for over 6 years. The extra weight makes isolations more natural and allows me to move within my pattern.
Poi isn't an endurance race, or a race at all. If you can't make it through a burn because you get tired, you need to train more.
I don't think people who use ball chain have given "link" chain a good try. Or they fail to see the benefits.
And don't cop out on "wraps". I do neck wraps with heavy link chain all the time.
(There that should help spark a good healthy debate)
Cody Canon
Controlled Burn, Reno Nevada
PLATINUM Member
Hyperloops suck
595 posts
Location: USA
Hyperloops suck
595 posts
Location: USA
Posted:
Erm, I think the reason why most people prefer ballchain is because... why not? It is cheap, compact, light (If you want weight, it is more efficient to have extra weight on the head rather than all the way down the chain. I'd get in to why, but physics = boring) and easy to wrap with without any pinching.
So far the only real reasong I've seen for using stuff other than ballchain is for the increased weight, which isn't ideal. I've used a large amount of different kinds of cable, chain, linked stuff, and 13 gauge ballchain is superior in every way, in my opinion.
EDITED_BY: MillenniuM (1078797328)
Erm, I think the reason why most people prefer ballchain is because... why not? It is cheap, compact, light (If you want weight, it is more efficient to have extra weight on the head rather than all the way down the chain. I'd get in to why, but physics = boring) and easy to wrap with without any pinching.
So far the only real reasong I've seen for using stuff other than ballchain is for the increased weight, which isn't ideal. I've used a large amount of different kinds of cable, chain, linked stuff, and 13 gauge ballchain is superior in every way, in my opinion.
EDITED_BY: MillenniuM (1078797328)
SILVER Member
addict
469 posts
Location: nottingham, england. cornwall wales denmark or pra...
addict
469 posts
Location: nottingham, england. cornwall wales denmark or pra...
Posted:
hmm.
i dunno i agree with cody.
all the poi i bought fell to peices. balls broke or popped out of shape orsplit. wires just hurt and all the heads i had sort of self destucted.
so i built my own and they are big huge heavy buggers.
its not for any reason other than extreme amounts of durability. i wanted something that would never break. and after 6 months the wicks arent even sagging.
the contruction is thus
leather handles - d link - welded link chain - tubecore heads with tubular wick. which has a very fine weave and does not fray very easily.
evryone thinks they are way too heavy... i like them i think theyre ok. does screw me for 15 mins or so when i switch to glowsticks.
one big advantage of ballchain is when you go to shorten by wrapping then do buzzsaw. the fact that there are effectively swivels all the way down really helps and link chain is harder for that.
there thats my 2 cents
hmm.
i dunno i agree with cody.
all the poi i bought fell to peices. balls broke or popped out of shape orsplit. wires just hurt and all the heads i had sort of self destucted.
so i built my own and they are big huge heavy buggers.
its not for any reason other than extreme amounts of durability. i wanted something that would never break. and after 6 months the wicks arent even sagging.
the contruction is thus
leather handles - d link - welded link chain - tubecore heads with tubular wick. which has a very fine weave and does not fray very easily.
evryone thinks they are way too heavy... i like them i think theyre ok. does screw me for 15 mins or so when i switch to glowsticks.
one big advantage of ballchain is when you go to shorten by wrapping then do buzzsaw. the fact that there are effectively swivels all the way down really helps and link chain is harder for that.
there thats my 2 cents
my original signature was tooo long.
this one is shorter
poo-bah
1,015 posts
Location: Austin TX USA
1,015 posts
Location: Austin TX USA
Posted:
The points in favor of ball-chain don't have much to do with weight:
1. Every link is a swivel. Meaning that you don't need to mess with a bunch of jumpers and separate swivels (which does save some weight, incidentally). My own feeling is that this makes it less prone to entanglements.
2. Untangles very easily. I think some forms of welded link chain also untangle easily, but some types of link chain and cable are real buggers to untangle.
3. Easy to customize the length. Unfortunately not true for welded link chain--I can shorten ball-chain with my leatherman.
The fact that it's lighter just means I can afford to put more weight in my wicks, where it'll do some good! While I prefer heavy wicks and a slower style myself, I think its disingenuous to say "weight doesn't matter." It does. If a fast song comes on and I'm spinning my monster wicks, I won't be able to keep up. If I'm spinning anything smaller, I probably will. And I've got enough wind and strength.
The points in favor of ball-chain don't have much to do with weight:
1. Every link is a swivel. Meaning that you don't need to mess with a bunch of jumpers and separate swivels (which does save some weight, incidentally). My own feeling is that this makes it less prone to entanglements.
2. Untangles very easily. I think some forms of welded link chain also untangle easily, but some types of link chain and cable are real buggers to untangle.
3. Easy to customize the length. Unfortunately not true for welded link chain--I can shorten ball-chain with my leatherman.
The fact that it's lighter just means I can afford to put more weight in my wicks, where it'll do some good! While I prefer heavy wicks and a slower style myself, I think its disingenuous to say "weight doesn't matter." It does. If a fast song comes on and I'm spinning my monster wicks, I won't be able to keep up. If I'm spinning anything smaller, I probably will. And I've got enough wind and strength.
Laugh while you can, monkey-boy
SILVER Member
Pooh-Bah
2,014 posts
Location: Galveston, TX, USA
Pooh-Bah
2,014 posts
Location: Galveston, TX, USA
Posted:
adamrice is right about ball chain. The reason I like it so much (over chain links) is it's ability to detangle itself easily.
When learning new tricks, one tends to get the poi tangled A LOT. Ball chain makes that less frustrating because I can usually just give my poi a tug and *poof* they are untangled. With chain links, I have to physically untangle them.
When on fire, it is not so much of an issue for me anymore as I don't tangle nearly as often as I used to. Using ball chain is nice there too though because it's a whole lot easier to untangle them while let which is a good thing because sometimes you can have brain freeze which is never good when you have lit wicks attached to your hands.
adamrice is right about ball chain. The reason I like it so much (over chain links) is it's ability to detangle itself easily.
When learning new tricks, one tends to get the poi tangled A LOT. Ball chain makes that less frustrating because I can usually just give my poi a tug and *poof* they are untangled. With chain links, I have to physically untangle them.
When on fire, it is not so much of an issue for me anymore as I don't tangle nearly as often as I used to. Using ball chain is nice there too though because it's a whole lot easier to untangle them while let which is a good thing because sometimes you can have brain freeze which is never good when you have lit wicks attached to your hands.
GOLD Member
Neo - Hippie
358 posts
Location: Sala, Slovakia
Neo - Hippie
358 posts
Location: Sala, Slovakia
Posted:
Well I personally use link chain and have nothing against ball but.. Why do you need swivels on fire poi unless you have flags or tails..? And the untangling is easy too... The length customizing IS true but I have never really witnessed anyone who changed the length of his fire poi.. So.. The weight problem is the only real one IMHO..: o)
Quote:
1. Every link is a swivel. Meaning that you don't need to mess with a bunch of jumpers and separate swivels (which does save some weight, incidentally). My own feeling is that this makes it less prone to entanglements.
2. Untangles very easily. I think some forms of welded link chain also untangle easily, but some types of link chain and cable are real buggers to untangle.
3. Easy to customize the length. Unfortunately not true for welded link chain--I can shorten ball-chain with my leatherman.
Well I personally use link chain and have nothing against ball but.. Why do you need swivels on fire poi unless you have flags or tails..? And the untangling is easy too... The length customizing IS true but I have never really witnessed anyone who changed the length of his fire poi.. So.. The weight problem is the only real one IMHO..: o)
Smile.. It confuses people..:)
Wonders never cease as long as you never cease to wonder.
Blueass
183 posts
Location: Edinburgh badger set
183 posts
Location: Edinburgh badger set
Posted:
Just thought I'd add my little bit to the discussion here.
I prefer weld linked chain (thin stuff - nothing too heavy) for the pure safety value of the stuff. Cathedral/concertina wicking too since it won't unravel totally when it starts burning through. Actually can say I don't like the lightness of ball chain that much. But hey it's all personal choice innit... for purposes of going dead slow I tend to go for loooonng chains
R
Just thought I'd add my little bit to the discussion here.
I prefer weld linked chain (thin stuff - nothing too heavy) for the pure safety value of the stuff. Cathedral/concertina wicking too since it won't unravel totally when it starts burning through. Actually can say I don't like the lightness of ball chain that much. But hey it's all personal choice innit... for purposes of going dead slow I tend to go for loooonng chains
R
---------------------------------
Breathing fire doesn't look good on the resume - Everclear
BRONZE Member
member
69 posts
Location: Tucson, USA
member
69 posts
Location: Tucson, USA
Posted:
I was in Las Vegas to do a workshop, and had to make my equipment there, and ended up going with some sash chain (76lbs+?). the total length ended up being 36" + ~4-6" for the towel wicks (about from my hips to my feet). In any case, when it comes to speed, altering the chain length mid-spin is nice, and I find this more easily done with link chain. I could wrap the sash chain 3 or 4 times around my hands with no problems, whereas I can maybe wrap ballchain a couple of times depending on the size. Ballchain does not "gather" well. Link chain gathers or "folds" much better compared to the ballchain we typically use.
That being said, I have found that the shorter the chain, the more I feel it in my spin if it is not swiveling. So, I rarely use link chain unless it is very long. I use ballchain for just about everything, and I don't need reiterate the good points the others in this thread have made.
MJ
Flamma Aeterna
I was in Las Vegas to do a workshop, and had to make my equipment there, and ended up going with some sash chain (76lbs+?). the total length ended up being 36" + ~4-6" for the towel wicks (about from my hips to my feet). In any case, when it comes to speed, altering the chain length mid-spin is nice, and I find this more easily done with link chain. I could wrap the sash chain 3 or 4 times around my hands with no problems, whereas I can maybe wrap ballchain a couple of times depending on the size. Ballchain does not "gather" well. Link chain gathers or "folds" much better compared to the ballchain we typically use.
That being said, I have found that the shorter the chain, the more I feel it in my spin if it is not swiveling. So, I rarely use link chain unless it is very long. I use ballchain for just about everything, and I don't need reiterate the good points the others in this thread have made.
MJ
Flamma Aeterna
That which does not kill me, only makes me stranger.
PLATINUM Member
Hyperloops suck
595 posts
Location: USA
Hyperloops suck
595 posts
Location: USA
Posted:
Have you checked out the ballchain from the HOP shop? I can quite easily hand wrap in wheel or wall plane with no difficulty, all the way down to the head.
As for people that like the weight of chain:
If you simply add weight to your head rather than the chain, preferably with Kevlar/whatever soaks your fuel, you gain more use of it. It not only lets you burn bigger/longer (who doesn't want that?!) but for less physical weight put on the very end of the poi, you gain the same "while spinning" force. This will help you with isolations as well, and although I can't really prove/understand why, helps hyperloops as well.
Have you checked out the ballchain from the HOP shop? I can quite easily hand wrap in wheel or wall plane with no difficulty, all the way down to the head.
As for people that like the weight of chain:
If you simply add weight to your head rather than the chain, preferably with Kevlar/whatever soaks your fuel, you gain more use of it. It not only lets you burn bigger/longer (who doesn't want that?!) but for less physical weight put on the very end of the poi, you gain the same "while spinning" force. This will help you with isolations as well, and although I can't really prove/understand why, helps hyperloops as well.
BRONZE Member
member
69 posts
Location: Tucson, USA
member
69 posts
Location: Tucson, USA
Posted:
Millenium:
We all sell the same ballchain, so yes I have used it. And I did mention that wrap-gathering the chain a couple of times is not an issue. Wrapping more than 2-3 times is uncomfortable (for my hands) with #15 chains. #13 should obviously gather better than #15 or #20, because it is smaller. For my normal length of chains (~32", #15 ballchain), wrapping the chain twice is about all I ever need to do.
MJ
Flamma Aeterna
Millenium:
We all sell the same ballchain, so yes I have used it. And I did mention that wrap-gathering the chain a couple of times is not an issue. Wrapping more than 2-3 times is uncomfortable (for my hands) with #15 chains. #13 should obviously gather better than #15 or #20, because it is smaller. For my normal length of chains (~32", #15 ballchain), wrapping the chain twice is about all I ever need to do.
MJ
Flamma Aeterna
That which does not kill me, only makes me stranger.
PLATINUM Member
Hyperloops suck
595 posts
Location: USA
Hyperloops suck
595 posts
Location: USA
Posted:
Ah, I must have misread your post. I thought you were saying the most you could do was wrap it 2 or 3 times and then it became hard. I've never used any kind of ballchain other than 13 and 15 gauge, but I can imagine wrapping 20 gauge would be hard.
Ah, I must have misread your post. I thought you were saying the most you could do was wrap it 2 or 3 times and then it became hard. I've never used any kind of ballchain other than 13 and 15 gauge, but I can imagine wrapping 20 gauge would be hard.
BRONZE Member
member
69 posts
Location: Tucson, USA
member
69 posts
Location: Tucson, USA
Posted:
It would have been more accurate and descriptive of me to say that more than a couple of wraps with the ballchain becomes uncomfortable whil performing, whereas with the sash chain I felt fine wrapping 4-5 times.
MJ
Flamma Aeterna
It would have been more accurate and descriptive of me to say that more than a couple of wraps with the ballchain becomes uncomfortable whil performing, whereas with the sash chain I felt fine wrapping 4-5 times.
MJ
Flamma Aeterna
That which does not kill me, only makes me stranger.
SILVER Member
That guy from Reno
556 posts
Location: Reno, Nevada USA
That guy from Reno
556 posts
Location: Reno, Nevada USA
Posted:
I have a theory. I think that having more weight in the chain changes how it acts and moves. This is especially important with isolations. Isolations are shifting the weight and or removing it. Having too much weight at just the end I feel makes isolations a little squirrly.
Adding more weight to the wick raises a question too. How much weight are we talking about? As I said before in another thread I don't know the cut off weight for poi heads and ball chain. I have very heavy wicks and at one performance I broke through approx 125lb un-welded link chain doing a neck wrap. The way I do a neck wrap is a little violent to the poi and the head flew in to the audience (without incident). That is why I'm skeptical about ball chain. I have also broken through solid brass. Maybee it's just me but I want to prevent others from not being as lucky as I was. I say suck it up when it comes to the audience's safety and "large wicks".
I have a theory. I think that having more weight in the chain changes how it acts and moves. This is especially important with isolations. Isolations are shifting the weight and or removing it. Having too much weight at just the end I feel makes isolations a little squirrly.
Adding more weight to the wick raises a question too. How much weight are we talking about? As I said before in another thread I don't know the cut off weight for poi heads and ball chain. I have very heavy wicks and at one performance I broke through approx 125lb un-welded link chain doing a neck wrap. The way I do a neck wrap is a little violent to the poi and the head flew in to the audience (without incident). That is why I'm skeptical about ball chain. I have also broken through solid brass. Maybee it's just me but I want to prevent others from not being as lucky as I was. I say suck it up when it comes to the audience's safety and "large wicks".
Cody Canon
Controlled Burn, Reno Nevada
BRONZE Member
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,749 posts
Location: Europe,Scotland,Both
Carpal \'Tunnel
3,749 posts
Location: Europe,Scotland,Both
Posted:
thats weird, i feel compleatly the opposite, I site aerotecks on laces, the highest head to chain weight ration i play with.
anyway...
T
Quote:
Having too much weight at just the end I feel makes isolations a little squirrly.
thats weird, i feel compleatly the opposite, I site aerotecks on laces, the highest head to chain weight ration i play with.
anyway...
T
This is a post by tom, all spelling is deleberate
-><- Kallisti
GOLD Member
playing the days away
7,263 posts
Location: The Middle lands, United Kingdom
playing the days away
7,263 posts
Location: The Middle lands, United Kingdom
Posted:
personally I think they both have advan/dis-advantages. I like spinning normal chain but funnily I prefer it without anything on the end! Spinning an open chain with only a handle is great and looks very nice in the sunny shine if it's all polished up sparkly.
For fire spinning I must say I prefer the ball chain but purely from the "every link is a swivel" point of view. They both are good and bad in their own respects and you can take advantage of their individual attributes in very different ways.
personally I think they both have advan/dis-advantages. I like spinning normal chain but funnily I prefer it without anything on the end! Spinning an open chain with only a handle is great and looks very nice in the sunny shine if it's all polished up sparkly.
For fire spinning I must say I prefer the ball chain but purely from the "every link is a swivel" point of view. They both are good and bad in their own respects and you can take advantage of their individual attributes in very different ways.
Let's relight this forum 
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