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Forums > Social Chat > Love of truth = death of love ?

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coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay

Total posts: 7330
Posted:short piece of prose by one richard geefe.
originally part of a larger piece that may or may not have been humourous umm

this extract by itself made me think though; is there any truth in it...?

"Maybe it has something to do with Vanessa. It was 16 years ago and in short it went she: me: love - yes - no. We shared a house. We spent every waking moment together, talking and laughing. One day out of the blue, she kissed me and told me she loved me. She wanted to be with me till she died. And I, because I truly loved her, told her the truth. I said: `You think you love me but you don't - and the reason you don't is because you don't want to wake up every day with someone who is being treated for depression.' It broke her heart. And of course it broke mine.

True love impels you to tell the truth. Yet with Vanessa, the truth made the love impossible. The only way to protect love is with lies and yet lies turn love into indifference. In my late adolescence, I turned this into an equation. Love of truth = death of love. If you divide both sides by love you end up with Truth = Death. I thought that was clever at the time, then for years I thought it was stupid, and last week I realised it was true. Maybe Vanessa knew it too. Death is the one place where there is no hypocrisy and Vanessa died eight years ago. So there is no going back - not without a spade anyway and I haven't considered that since I stopped the Halcyon. Ha, ha - but I'm crying.

So from now on it's the truth and only the truth because the death it brings is better than the living death of lies. Sod it if I lose my friends, if they can't take the truth they're not worth half an air kiss. And in case you're wondering, Vanessa was not her real name, I love(d) her too much to tell the truth about that."

wink

so most of it is hugely pessimistic and other bits are just the product of an overly active, twisted mind.

but it did produce the line: "So from now on it's the truth and only the truth because the death it brings is better than the living death of lies."
which i like quite a lot. ubblove


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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Ade
SILVER Member since Mar 2001

Are we there yet?
Location: australia

Total posts: 1897
Posted:Quote:
1. if his logic was flawed surely she would have mentioned that he was wrong and that she does actually love him?
as that didn't happen, i think its safe to assume he was right about at least that much.



can't assume that at all

not everyone will fight for thier love, especially if their feelings have been dismissed the way this fellow seems to have done to Vanessa

you might assume Vanessa didn't want to be rejected a second time, and so didn't express her love outloud

Quote:
You think you love me but you don't - and the reason you don't is because you don't want to wake up every day with someone who is being treated for depression.'



change the word depression to: cancer, MS, alcoholism, brain damage and see how the sentence reads




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coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay

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Posted:you're right ade, one can't necessarily assume that, but i think vanessa was more than just a bit of a wuss if she gave up that easily.
she wasn't even rejected.
richard never told her that he didn't love her; he told her that he believed she didn't love him, which she then did not deny.
still, there's no crime in being timid i guess.

i think your second point is biased though.
the fact that richard suffers from depression means that his pessimistic view of the relationship could well be a direct result of his illness.
depression is a side effect of most of the illnesses you listed but whether or not richard's reaction to vanessa's 'confession of love' was sincere is highly questionable if he is clinically depressed.


nyc - i found a hole in your logic sir:
you say: "Vanessa can do better."
geefe says: "Vanessa died eight years ago"

then you said:
"'Truth' doesn't make love impossible. In fact, truth and love are the same thing. They both are interpreted by the brain, they both are subjective, they both are vague and yet specific."

to which i say:
spank

there will be no turning of this thread into a philosophical debate about absolute concepts.
i have no inclination to start asking simian about existentialism, especially on a tuesday morning.


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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mech
BRONZE Member since Jun 2003

mech

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Posted:confusious say

if you love, love with wisdom, as love is the most powerful weapon we have!

or was that a weaston singer?

confused


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simian


simian

110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
Location: London

Total posts: 3149
Posted:Cole say that NYC say that:Quote:
'Truth' doesn't make love impossible. In fact, truth and love are the same thing. They both are interpreted by the brain, they both are subjective, they both are vague and yet specific.



dogs and tigers both have four legs, can swim, eat meat, and like having their bellies rubbed.

dogs and tigers are not the same thing.

Cole say that:Quote:
there will be no turning of this thread into a philosophical debate about absolute concepts.
i have no inclination to start asking simian about existentialism, especially on a tuesday morning.



ubblol fancy some existential lazing about in 1001 later? or are you nonspitzen today?


"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."

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Rozi
SILVER Member since Jan 2002

100 characters max...
Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia

Total posts: 2996
Posted:Quote:
i think your second point is biased though.
the fact that richard suffers from depression means that his pessimistic view of the relationship could well be a direct result of his illness.
depression is a side effect of most of the illnesses you listed but whether or not richard's reaction to vanessa's 'confession of love' was sincere is highly questionable if he is clinically depressed.





Enter the quotathon wink

The idea of the original story is that Richie-boy told the truth, and in doing so the relationship had to end. Couple of points with this, firstly yours about depression clouding and maybe creating an insincere evaluation of the situation. I completely agree. He was not really being honest, because he was not necessarily capable of it, as he was not honest with himself.

Extending on that, can you really trust his evaluation of the situation, ie. whether Vanessa really loved him?

This is not really a story about love and truth at all. It is a story about the complex tales we tell ourselves to justify our fears, actions and reactions.


It was a day for screaming at inanimate objects.

What this calls for is a special mix of psychology and extreme violence...

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simian


simian

110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
Location: London

Total posts: 3149
Posted:Something else:

Just because someones judgement is clouded DOES NOT mean that their conclusions are necessarily incorrect.

or as kurt might say:
just because your paranoid don't mean they're not after you
(gotta find a way a better way i'd better wait)
biggrin


"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."

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WryTerra


WryTerra

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Total posts: 912
Posted:I prefer a quote from Star Trek which whilst geeky, because it's Star Trek, is very funny.

"Of course I'm paranoid, everyone's trying to kill me!"


"We have done the impossible and that makes us mighty" - Mal Reynolds

"I can't tell the difference between an electron and a cat" - Brother of a friend

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mech
BRONZE Member since Jun 2003

mech

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Posted:Quote:
Cole say that NYC say that:Quote:
'Truth' doesn't make love impossible. In fact, truth and love are the same thing. They both are interpreted by the brain, they both are subjective, they both are vague and yet specific.



dogs and tigers both have four legs, can swim, eat meat, and like having their bellies rubbed.

dogs and tigers are not the same thing.

Cole say that:Quote:
there will be no turning of this thread into a philosophical debate about absolute concepts.
i have no inclination to start asking simian about existentialism, especially on a tuesday morning.



ubblol fancy some existential lazing about in 1001 later? or are you nonspitzen today?



i hate smart people, sim ur name is soooo going on my tee list! wink

laterdays


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Dom
BRONZE Member since Dec 2001

Dom

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Posted:Quote:
This is not really a story about love and truth at all. It is a story about the complex tales we tell ourselves to justify our fears, actions and reactions.



That's a really good point, thanks Rozi. Everyday we give ourselves excuses not to do things, and limit our lives as a result. Other people's fear of being hurt has led to people backing away from possibly rewarding and amazing relationships. ubbcrying Is it better to live an average life: giving up potential reward in order to avoid an equal or greater potential pain. Personally I think not.

"Fear can stop you loving. Love can stop your fear." - Morcheeba, Fear and Love


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polythene


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Posted:ubblol @ Q's quote.

Yeah, that'd probably make me paranoid too! ubbtickled


The optimist claims that we are living in the best of all possible worlds.
The pessimist fears this is true.

Always make time to play in the snow.

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NYC


NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA

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Posted:*** correction ***

Didn't mean to say that truth and love are the same thing. Obviously they are different. What I meant but did not say was that they are both identical in that they are opinions formulated by an individual.

"Truth" "Love" "Hate" "Lies" are the same in that they are all complex interpretations.

"Truth" is not any more or less "true" than "love".

Richard somehow puts his interpretation of "truth" higher than Vanessa's interpretation of "love".

I'd always believed in the difference between capital T "Truth" (as the universal truth) and a lower case "truth" as one which is only an individual's interpretation. I am a believer in only lower case "truth" and do not believe that there is one, undenyable "Truth" in the universe.

Building on that fact... I don't think that there is such a thing as a capital L "Love"... [Unless it's at the beginning of a sentence wink ] Love is an individual interpretation, just as truth.

I think Richard's assertion that his "truth" is more important than Vanessa's "love" is a faulty and egocentric one.


Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

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coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay

Total posts: 7330
Posted:dom, is that not a future tense version of the argument "it is better to have loved and lost than never loved at all"?



if it is, i can think of several counter arguments... wink



"Is it better to live an average life: giving up potential reward in order to avoid an equal or greater potential pain."



obviously not.



but limiting your own actions in order to prevent pain (yours or others) is surely not a bad thing to do sometimes.

and the assumption that life will be 'average' if you do not seize each and every opportunity is a misnomer.



giving up potential reward in order to avoid a greater potential loss is not something you can generalise.



sometimes the potential loss is sufficiently great so as to make the attainment of the reward unwarranted.



[edit: mad nyc! what did you not understand about:



"there will be no turning of this thread into a philosophical debate about absolute concepts."



stop it. spank

stop it now. kiss]



[edit2: and just cos its in your signature does not give you the right to bring it up everywhere. ubblol

hold on, i'll pm you a link to the discussion i had on a similar subject on another board...]


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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NYC


NYC

NYC
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Posted:Quote:
[edit: mad nyc! what did you not understand about:

"there will be no turning of this thread into a philosophical debate about absolute concepts."

stop it. spank
stop it now. kiss




Um... OK... I'll try and avoid discussion of "truth" and "love" in your post about truth and love. Uh.... Um... do you think Vanessa had big boobies? Can I talk about boobies? Or is that too philisophical for you? kiss

And your point about risk/reward potential was so utterly obvious and pedestrian that I won't even dignify it with an agreement. ubbangel


Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

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mech
BRONZE Member since Jun 2003

mech

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Posted:yes i rekon you can talk about breast so long as you dont go into long discussions about wether or not breast feeding as a child causes a deep seated love of breats,a nd the topic is held souly to size and jiggle factor, im sure we coudl manage that! biggrin


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polythene


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Location: London/ Surrey

Total posts: 1359
Posted:Ah, the intellectual highs and lows of HOP ubbtickled ubblol

The optimist claims that we are living in the best of all possible worlds.
The pessimist fears this is true.

Always make time to play in the snow.

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Tao Star


Tao Star

Pooh-Bah
Location: Bristol

Total posts: 1662
Posted:i like talking about breasts too!

and i have an advantage cos i have two of my own so neugh! tongue


I had a dream that my friend had a
strong-bad pop up book,
it was the book of my dreams.

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pounce
SILVER Member since Jan 2003

pounce

All the neurotic makings of America's lesser known sweetheart
Location: body in Las Vegas, heart all a...

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Posted:Quote:
Ah, the intellectual highs and lows of HOP ubbtickled ubblol



LMAO!!! mmmmmm, breastesssss biggrin


I was always scared with my mother's obsession with the good scissors. It made me wonder if there were evil scissors lurking in the house somewhere.

Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons for you are crunchy and good with ketchup.

**giggles**

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NYC


NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA

Total posts: 9232
Posted:Laughing at noticing who showed up to this conversation BEFORE the word "Boobie" was uttered and who jumped in AFTER.

Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

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polythene


veteran
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Total posts: 1359
Posted:I'm wondering if those who showed up after misuse the 'search' function wink

(tip: you'll get better results on google ubbangel)


The optimist claims that we are living in the best of all possible worlds.
The pessimist fears this is true.

Always make time to play in the snow.

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mech
BRONZE Member since Jun 2003

mech

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Posted:i think that this topic is leaving the subject of breats!
i think its time we got it back on topic ubblol wink


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Flynt
SILVER Member since May 2002

Flynt

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Posted:speaking of topics....

I'm going to say, having read Mr Geefe's story several times, that his perception (of many years ago) is far too neat to be real.

It's possible Vanessa said "but..."

It's possible he wouldn't listen.

Was it a combination of his fear/need to push her away (for her own good?) and her inability to make him understand and/or cope with the situation, that broke their hearts, rather than 'The Truth'??

The truth's in that story are: Richard was suffering from depression. Vanessa died 8 years later.

Two completely unrelated sentances, until you add personal perspective, which is not the same as truth.

It's all about perspective really.....


oh, and Glass? I read your quotes, particularaly the one from the 'serious academic website' and sadly understood every word....


Currently on the right side up of the world.

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coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

big and good and broken
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Posted:okay.
good point nyc wink

allow me to retort:

Quote:
Richard somehow puts his interpretation of "truth" higher than Vanessa's interpretation of "love".



i think what richard actually did was put his interpretation of love above vanessa's interpretation of love - he does not compare her love with his truth.
she says she loves him, he says she doesn't.
this just means they have a different idea of what love is.

according to you, "Love is an individual interpretation, just as truth."
with that statement in mind i think it is harsh to call richard 'faulty and egocentric' when, like everyone else, his opinions are based on his own interpretations of 'love' and 'truth'.

evidently they do not match vanessa's interpretations but this is no more his fault than it is hers.

now to the crux of the argument... smile

"do you think Vanessa had big boobies? Can I talk about boobies? Or is that too philisophical for you?"

philosophy of boobies.
hmmm...
this sound like a job for... philosomonkey!!
often seen swinging through trees, answering such profound questions as 'why do bananas skin?', 'who writes the wrongs?' and 'does it?'.
i personally think vanessa's boobies were too big for richard's tastes.
he is a shallow man and i would not be surprised if the boobie oversizing was the root of his relationship destroying actions

"And your point about risk/reward potential was so utterly obvious and pedestrian that I won't even dignify it with an agreement."

does that mean you disagree with what dom said?! eek


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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NYC


NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA

Total posts: 9232
Posted:Quote:
"And your point about risk/reward potential was so utterly obvious and pedestrian that I won't even dignify it with an agreement."

does that mean you disagree with what dom said?! eek



Um... what? No, Dom and I both agree with the incredibly obvious point that it's preferable to defer pleasure now for greater pleasure later IF the increase in pleasure is large enough to warrent waiting. Duh. ubbloco


Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

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coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

big and good and broken
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Posted:but that was not the utterly obvious pedestrian point i was trying to make. smile

what you just said supports dom's statement [which was "Is it better to live an average life: giving up potential reward in order to avoid an equal or greater potential pain. Personally I think not."].

i disagree as i think that is a massive generalistation, and your additional point that 'sometimes you might have to wait a little while longer' makes little difference.

i was trying to say that if you follow that way of thinking and you are not careful and considerate, you could very easily end up being a very selfish person.

i am *not* implying yourself or dom are selfish - i know very well that the truth is to the contrary ubbangel

i just thought it was a bit biased to say that you will live an average life if you turn down opportunities for potential reward because of the related potential for causing pain - i am sure both you and dom do it on a regular basis.

surely if there is a great enough potential pain, the reward is outweighed and the better thing to do is give up the potential reward for the sake of yourself or other's.

extreme example: am i living an average life if someone offers me the chance to take part in an armed robbery and i turn it down?
the potential reward could be huge but for most 'average' people wink the potential pain is to great to risk going for the reward.


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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mech
BRONZE Member since Jun 2003

mech

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Posted:cole i agree with you (and cos i aint smart ill keep this short)

but i also belive dom and NYC to be correct, most people do like avaerage lifes for most of their lifes!

take me and thee for example we go to wirk 9-5, shirt and tie, and are geeks in our field, and stare out of teh window on nice days and think,

"i could just go for 10mins for a spin would some one miss me?"

but then when you get home the avrge person wouldnt launch 3,4 or 5 balls up directly above their body? or rotate two balls in cobnes around their body either,

it all depends on what perspective you look at life from. Many time when you look at ur life you take the things you can do for graunted, ie spin, smile, make other laught, have biscuits from random sacry northeners wink but its when we stop and think about the risks we are going to be taking that we think OMG this may cause me pain, do you ever think that before you start juggling, no? and way cos you are practiced at it, and you knwo what to explect, in short its the not knowing that makes the death not the liability factor! If you have loved many times you are not only lucky, but you are also pos a lil more warie over what steps to take, to avoid the pain you may recive when you stop loving, but at th esame time do you hesitate when you step out fo ur door in the morning?

did that make any sence?

right im off to smack my head against a wall for being thick!

laterdays


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DeepSoulSheep
GOLD Member since Sep 2002

DeepSoulSheep

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Posted:Sorry Cole, I disagree....I think it's at least as selfish to push someone away and hurt them because of your own fear. Maybe more so when you ask who gave him the right to be the boss.

Based on what had happened up until that point their company of each others was a good thing. He took that away from her because of his own instinct of self preservartion.

IMHO ubbangel


I live in a world of infinite possibilities.

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coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay

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Posted:in the specific case of richard and vanessa i completely agree.



but i do not agree in general with respect to relationships which is how dom stated the point.



and as my extreme example shows, i do not agree in the completely general case.



of course, there is an argument for the fact that i (as someone who generally will turn down potential reward in preference of avoiding potential pain) live an average life and just don't consider it as such from my point of view.



now was that 'average' with a small 'a' or a big 'A'...? wink


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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simian


simian

110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
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Posted:*agrees with cole*

things that possibly seem unrelated:

There's no 'right' or 'wrong' level of risk you should accept in your life

i think the word "should" means "if you want to be nice to people, then..."

it's entirely a matter of personal preference (until it starts to impact on the choices of others around you)

better safe than sorry
but on the other hand
you've got to have a dream, if you don't have a dream
etc

DSS, i really don't see how it was an act of pure self interest...
seems the same kind of argument as
"if you enjoy being good, then you're doing it for yourself so you're selfish"
which i consider invalid and meaningless
because it misunderstands the nature of being "good" (or "nice" as i prefer to call it)

*runs away to avoid colewrath for broad arguments*


"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."

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DeepSoulSheep
GOLD Member since Sep 2002

DeepSoulSheep

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Posted:I was talking specific to this example...which I'm going to stick to here because it's getting confusing and different 'strokes diffferent folks' .... yaddah yaddah.

It was selfish because they clearly had something great. He made his speach nipping things in the bud. He did this because of his own insecurity and fear of possible catastrophe. He hurt her for no reason other than self preservation. The situation didn't warrant that and neither did her actions till that point.

He even tries to further justify it afterwards saying he was right because she died umm she could've died of a broken heart for all we know ubbangel

I think this is at lest on a par with the idea that listening to Morcheeba can make you selfish. I agree with Morcheeba, but maybe that's cause I'm a romantic. kiss


I live in a world of infinite possibilities.

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simian


simian

110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
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Posted:Quote:
It was selfish because they clearly had something great. He made his speach nipping things in the bud. He did this because of his own insecurity and fear of possible catastrophe. He hurt her for no reason other than self preservation. The situation didn't warrant that and neither did her actions till that point.



stupid perhaps, but i disagree selfish. umm


"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."

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