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Forums > Social Chat > Love of truth = death of love ?

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coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay

Total posts: 7330
Posted:short piece of prose by one richard geefe.
originally part of a larger piece that may or may not have been humourous umm

this extract by itself made me think though; is there any truth in it...?

"Maybe it has something to do with Vanessa. It was 16 years ago and in short it went she: me: love - yes - no. We shared a house. We spent every waking moment together, talking and laughing. One day out of the blue, she kissed me and told me she loved me. She wanted to be with me till she died. And I, because I truly loved her, told her the truth. I said: `You think you love me but you don't - and the reason you don't is because you don't want to wake up every day with someone who is being treated for depression.' It broke her heart. And of course it broke mine.

True love impels you to tell the truth. Yet with Vanessa, the truth made the love impossible. The only way to protect love is with lies and yet lies turn love into indifference. In my late adolescence, I turned this into an equation. Love of truth = death of love. If you divide both sides by love you end up with Truth = Death. I thought that was clever at the time, then for years I thought it was stupid, and last week I realised it was true. Maybe Vanessa knew it too. Death is the one place where there is no hypocrisy and Vanessa died eight years ago. So there is no going back - not without a spade anyway and I haven't considered that since I stopped the Halcyon. Ha, ha - but I'm crying.

So from now on it's the truth and only the truth because the death it brings is better than the living death of lies. Sod it if I lose my friends, if they can't take the truth they're not worth half an air kiss. And in case you're wondering, Vanessa was not her real name, I love(d) her too much to tell the truth about that."

wink

so most of it is hugely pessimistic and other bits are just the product of an overly active, twisted mind.

but it did produce the line: "So from now on it's the truth and only the truth because the death it brings is better than the living death of lies."
which i like quite a lot. ubblove


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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DeepSoulSheep
GOLD Member since Sep 2002

DeepSoulSheep

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Berlin

Total posts: 2617
Posted:smile

I live in a world of infinite possibilities.

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simian


simian

110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
Location: London

Total posts: 3149
Posted:cool smile
very


"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."

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Tao Star


Tao Star

Pooh-Bah
Location: Bristol

Total posts: 1662
Posted:it's quite sad thugh.

i can say i've been truthful with boyf but i've never had to say anything like that. Some hard stuff, but nothing like that...


I had a dream that my friend had a
strong-bad pop up book,
it was the book of my dreams.

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simian


simian

110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
Location: London

Total posts: 3149
Posted:hmm a lover of knowledge (and by extension truth) is a Sophophile or Philosopher if you swap sylabubles.

that lot think too much if you ask me wink


"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."

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duballstar
SILVER Member since Sep 2003

duballstar

slack rating - 9.5
Location: Suburbiton, Yoo-Kay

Total posts: 2216
Posted:what do you expect, dude's being treated for depression!

you know Alfie Moon was saying on benders yesterday that you gotta lie a bit in a relationship to keep it workin... how long do you reckon him an kat will last?

i think we all struggle with thoughts like this in relationships but i reckon for my part i don't say stuff like that because although you might think it at the time, you might not later and really regret saying it! it's best to just sit back and not worry as much as you can and then if something definatley needs sorting out be truthful... (but maybe not as blunt!!!)

as for the quote i think it could be more applicable to politics than love life!!! s'a good one tho...

p.s. where did all that /\ come from? kindofa heavy thread methinks... umm


It is our fantasies that make us real. Without our fantasies we're just a blank monkey' - Terry Pratchett

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WryTerra


WryTerra

The reason we say "European"
Location: Cheltenham

Total posts: 912
Posted:Interesting post, coleman.

Interesting that I should see it now. There's stuff in there that I totally agree with and stuff in there that i've just realised is very silly.

One point he makes is good though. Truth is important. I think if people get nothing else from this they should at least go away with the importance of truth.


"We have done the impossible and that makes us mighty" - Mal Reynolds

"I can't tell the difference between an electron and a cat" - Brother of a friend

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Glåss
BRONZE Member since Mar 2017

Glåss

The Ministry of Manipulation
Location: Bristol

Total posts: 2523
Posted:too true, truth is very important,

and so too is lying, a fundamental keystop of social interation.



There is no such thing as the truth

and especially in the world of love.




EDITED_BY: Glss (1077930000)


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TheBovrilMonkey
SILVER Member since Sep 2001

TheBovrilMonkey

Liquid Cow
Location: High Wycombe, England

Total posts: 2629
Posted:I think there's one exception.

If you're asked 'does this make my bum look big?'
The truth is never a good idea tongue


But there's no sense crying over every mistake. You just keep on trying till you run out of cake.

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GottaLoveIt


GottaLoveIt

Sponge
Location: Stevenage

Total posts: 883
Posted:Bovril I must take the time out to disagree with you!!! If a guy or girl said my bum looked big in something I'd only take offense jokingly then run away and change!!! Unless of course, my bum looked big in everything then I'd just carry a pillow taped around it!!! ubblol *mental image*

Monkeys monkeys and bananas

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woodnymph


woodnymph

member
Location: london,uk

Total posts: 313
Posted:There's a flaw in there somewhere,not sure where,but it's there.......
Truth is important cos people are instinctively picking up signals and thoughts all the time and so if lies are spoken ,people will know it on some level.....


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[Nx?]
BRONZE Member since Mar 2017

[Nx?]

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Europe,Scotland,Both

Total posts: 3749
Posted:whats truth, whos truth, in what context?

whats true is only true when its true and even then only to you. Life is more complex than the equations used to descibe it. The man can write, but is he right, only for him, and even then, i detect a note of doubt.

nice quote cole. hug

T wave


This is a post by tom, all spelling is deleberate
-><- Kallisti

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Dom
BRONZE Member since Dec 2001

Dom

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Bristol, UK

Total posts: 3009
Posted:Quote:
whats true is only true when its true and even then only to you.



There are universal truths, and there are your truths. To be true to yourself you need to speak your heart and your truth. In a close relationship you need to speak your truth, and hear the truth of your partner.

Truth = trust. Trust = a great relatonship.
Lies = flase trust. Flase Trust = pain.



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Glåss
BRONZE Member since Mar 2017

Glåss

The Ministry of Manipulation
Location: Bristol

Total posts: 2523
Posted:It has been preproposed that to the postmodernist, "truth" is whatever point of view the individual prefers. Moreover, postmodernist thinking suggests that what is "true" for one person might not be true for another.
"Truth" in itself is nt important to a postmodernist thinker; all that really matters is the dialogue between ideas.

mind you I reckon thats mostly a load of rubbish, although there is some truth in it.
_____________________________________________________________________

" Inasmuch as postmodernist thinkers such as Rorty and Foucault jettison any enduring or objective sense of meaning, truth and value, they enter the same amoral vacuum advanced by Nietzsche and indicated by Dostoevsky. Although postmodernists often advocate the recognition of "alterity" or the appreciation for "the other" supposedly marginalized and silenced by Western, hegemonic forces (whether it be indigenous peoples, women, or nonheterosexuals), this imperative founders without a moral foundation; it reduces to mere preference or suggestion. Why not glorify the hegemonic as the heroic, as exemplary embodiments of the Will to Power? Why give ear to those denied a voice? "What have we to learn from the losers?" Nietzsche might well ask."

losers like the odd character Richard Geefe

I had a CD if his, but I lost it sometime around mar-tober (dom pointed that out to me)

very scarily, :OMG: that second one is a direct quote from a serious academic website and not the PoMo genereator, I haven't even tried to understand it

Drew

"smack my bonoboe"


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Rozi
SILVER Member since Jan 2002

100 characters max...
Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia

Total posts: 2996
Posted:Quote:
Quote:
whats true is only true when its true and even then only to you.





There are universal truths, and there are your truths. To be true to yourself you need to speak your heart and your truth. In a close relationship you need to speak your truth, and hear the truth of your partner.









I think that is what annoys me about this story. I was trying to think of a nice way of saying it last night and didn't succeed. This guy never allowed his partner the opportunity to speak her truth. He just assumed he knew it.



In fact, he didn't really speak the truth. Sure, he was honest, honest about the conscious thoughts in his head. And honesty in a relationship can be really damaging. The crimes committed in the name of honesty are many. But truth requires a bit of self-analysis.



If he had spoken the truth he may have said "I'm scared. I am suffering from this mindset that affects the way I feel. I don't believe anyone can love me because I don't deserve that love. I am scared I am destined to be alone. I can't let anyone near me for fear of discovering that I am right and they will leave."



If he had spoken that truth, and allowed his partner to speak hers, things may have been the same. Or they may have been different. Who knows?



But he chose to say "you don't love me really" And if you read the passage carefully, he also had the arrogance to assume that his self-sacrifice proved he was the only one in the relationship who did really love. So he got to prove himself right that "no one can love him" and at the same time feel like the hero.



As I said, this story irritates me slightly. wink



/rant



*hands Pele back her Typewriter*

EDITED_BY: Rozi (1078003700)


It was a day for screaming at inanimate objects.

What this calls for is a special mix of psychology and extreme violence...

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Charles
BRONZE Member since Jun 2001

Charles

Corporate Circus Arts Entertainer
Location: Auckland

Total posts: 3989
Posted:Quote:
You think you love me but you don't - and the reason you don't is because you don't want to wake up every day with someone who is being treated for depression.'



Here is the biggest flaw in the argument, and it has nothing to do with the truth!

This guy is assuming that she doesn't want to wake up with someone being treated for depression, And he uses this to 'prove' she doesn't love him?

I don't understand where the two are connected...Unless you are talking about infatuation, which feels like love but can be easily shattered by bombshells like that.

TRUE LOVE is where negative aspects of the other's personality are part of the person you love.


A similar example was when i first went out with this beautiful girl at university, and fell in love. I had no idea there were HUGE cultural, religious and maturity issues between us (I was 5 years younger than her). After the first year, I decided to break up, becuase there ws no way her family would accept me and if they found out, it would be disastrous for her and the family she loved too.

After all that, and a lot of heartache, I would never say that love is dead...In fact, I kept in touch for 8 years after that, always sending a birthday card and calling once or twice a year.

Of course, as some of you may know, her situation changed, I had matured a lot, and now we are married with a wondeful 9 month old son!


I could have gone all sulky and yelled out that the whole world wasn't fair and that love stinks, but if I had done that I wouldn't be the deliriously happily married man I am today...


Sometimes doing the right thing or telling the truth is the PROOF of love, not the death of it!



HoP Posting Guidelines
* Is it the Truth?
* Is it Fair to all concerned?
* Will it build Goodwill and Better Friendships?
* Will it be Beneficial to all concerned?

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SpitFire
GOLD Member since Dec 2002

Mand's Girl....and The Not So Shy One
Location: Calgary, Alberta Canada

Total posts: 2723
Posted:*applauds Charles* Well said!



Solitude sometimes speaks to you, and you should listen.

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Rouge Dragon
BRONZE Member since Jul 2003

Rouge Dragon

Insert Champagne Here
Location: without class distinction

Total posts: 13215
Posted:All's Fair In Love And War

i dont know if thats relevant here but it comes into my mind a lot when i think about love.

charles (my b'day buddy!:p) thats fantastic! and through all the shi+ ive been through i'd like to remember how thinks turned out for you!

i agree, truth doesnt have to mean death. the comment about how he was being treated for depression kinda sums a lot of it up. if she's lived with him she'd know he was being treated for depression!

if you're friends with someone you are friends with someone in spite of their faults. when you love someone you love someone with their faults.


i would have changed ***** to phallus, and claire to petey Petey

Rougie: but that's what I'm doing here
Arnwyn: what letting me adjust myself in your room?..don't you dare quote that on HoP...

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WryTerra


WryTerra

The reason we say "European"
Location: Cheltenham

Total posts: 912
Posted:Very well said, Charles. Consider yourself admired. And congratulations. I didn't know that. smile So they're late but valid wink

"We have done the impossible and that makes us mighty" - Mal Reynolds

"I can't tell the difference between an electron and a cat" - Brother of a friend

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coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay

Total posts: 7330
Posted:Quote:
But truth requires a bit of self-analysis.

If he had spoken the truth he may have said "I'm scared. I am suffering from this mindset that affects the way I feel. I don't believe anyone can love me because I don't deserve that love. I am scared I am destined to be alone. I can't let anyone near me for fear of discovering that I am right and they will leave."





the guy is clinically depressed!
you cannot expect him to be that self-analytical in light of his condition.
without that all he can say is what he feels is true to him.

the girl didn't argue did she so what was the 'truth'...?


Quote:
Here is the biggest flaw in the argument, and it has nothing to do with the truth!

This guy is assuming that she doesn't want to wake up with someone being treated for depression, And he uses this to 'prove' she doesn't love him?

I don't understand where the two are connected...Unless you are talking about infatuation, which feels like love but can be easily shattered by bombshells like that.

TRUE LOVE is where negative aspects of the other's personality are part of the person you love.




i completely agree.

was he not right then?

if the girl had loved him surely she would have countered his argument rather than agreeing and accepting the relationship was over - as far as i can see this 'proves' he was right that she didn't love him and was most likely only infatuated with him as you said.

i guess the question is did telling the 'truth' (all the truth is really is someone's honest opinion of a situation - you cannot expect to get closer to the truth than that) early on in that relationship kill any chance he and the girl had at finding love?

and charles, yours is a beautiful story but it is not really applicable here in my opinion.

in fact, i consider it to be more of a confirmation of the equation - you, like mr geefe, accepted the truth that the love would not blossom in the situation you were in and decided to end the relationship rather than live a lie (carry on but not tell your partner's family etc.).

you were lucky enough later in life to find yourselves in a situation where the love could grow freely and for that i consider you to be blessed - lasting true love is a rare thing.

but mr. geefe did not have the opportunity to try again with vanessa when their lives had changed to a point where love might blossom again. frown

maybe vanessa had maturity issues and in those 8 years apart they never went away?
maybe geefe's pessimistic view of the relationship was down to his depression and it would take her to approach first for even a chance at reconciliation?
maybe if she hadn't died, they would have met again the next year and fallen in love properly?
maybe it was just never meant to be - after a year of being with someone like geefe described, you should know if you are falling in love or not.


i don't know really though, nobody loves me wink


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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Tao Star


Tao Star

Pooh-Bah
Location: Bristol

Total posts: 1662
Posted:i think maybe the guy's logic was flawed in that he thought he could know the truth about someone else.

there is no way he could know that what he was putting forward as 'truth' (the fact that she didn't love him) was actually the truth unless he had just been told it by the girl. And even then she could have been lying... tongue

to put it in a real life context, one of my friends has just had a huge bust up with his g/f. She constantly tells him he doesn't love her and then the other day he just blew up and shoutde at her in front of everyone

'YOU DON'T KNOW THAT!!!'

just goes to show...


I had a dream that my friend had a
strong-bad pop up book,
it was the book of my dreams.

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WryTerra


WryTerra

The reason we say "European"
Location: Cheltenham

Total posts: 912
Posted:Yeah, assuming you know what someone else thinks or feels is risky, I agree.

"We have done the impossible and that makes us mighty" - Mal Reynolds

"I can't tell the difference between an electron and a cat" - Brother of a friend

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Tao Star


Tao Star

Pooh-Bah
Location: Bristol

Total posts: 1662
Posted:especially in a hypothetical situation.

I had a dream that my friend had a
strong-bad pop up book,
it was the book of my dreams.

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WryTerra


WryTerra

The reason we say "European"
Location: Cheltenham

Total posts: 912
Posted:Even more so in a real one, I'd have thought.

"We have done the impossible and that makes us mighty" - Mal Reynolds

"I can't tell the difference between an electron and a cat" - Brother of a friend

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simian


simian

110% MONKEY EVERY TIME ALL THE TIME JUST CANT STOP THE MONKEY
Location: London

Total posts: 3149
Posted:ah, but there are more hypothetical situations than there are real ones.

"Switching between different kinds of chuu chuu sometimes gives this "urgh wtf?" effect because it's giving people the phi phenomenon."

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coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay

Total posts: 7330
Posted:Quote:
1. i think maybe the guy's logic was flawed in that he thought he could know the truth about someone else.



2. there is no way he could know that what he was putting forward as 'truth' (the fact that she didn't love him) was actually the truth. And even then she could have been lying...







1. if his logic was flawed surely she would have mentioned that he was wrong and that she does actually love him?

as that didn't happen, i think its safe to assume he was right about at least that much.



2. as i said, the truth is just someone's honest opinion of a situation - you cannot expect to get closer to the truth than that.

as for her lying, in a relationship you have to assume that the other party is telling the truth or you then have a whole other world of problems (trust issues umm).





Quote:
Yeah, assuming you know what someone else thinks or feels is risky, I agree.





especially true if it is about something you have never discussed before.

i think for example, it is safe to assume someone still loves you, even if they don't tell you every day and just as true for the converse situation - if someone has never told you that they love you, they most likely still don't.

best option as always is to simply ask them to tell you how they feel or what they are thinking.

well, if you're brave enough that is - i know i rarely am. rolleyes





hug to all that have replied to this thread - was originally in two minds whether to post it at all or not.

i'm glad i did ubbrollsmile



"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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WryTerra


WryTerra

The reason we say "European"
Location: Cheltenham

Total posts: 912
Posted:hug to you too coleman

I'm glad you did.


"We have done the impossible and that makes us mighty" - Mal Reynolds

"I can't tell the difference between an electron and a cat" - Brother of a friend

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Tao Star


Tao Star

Pooh-Bah
Location: Bristol

Total posts: 1662
Posted:Quote:
if his logic was flawed surely she would have mentioned that he was wrong and that she does actually love him?




but he didn't know that when he said it. Anyone can be wise after the event.

it was quite an extreme statement to make when someone's just told you they love you for the first time, unless she'd been behaving like a psycopath and serial lier for the preceeding part of the relationship.


I had a dream that my friend had a
strong-bad pop up book,
it was the book of my dreams.

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coleman
SILVER Member since Aug 2002

coleman

big and good and broken
Location: lunn dunn, yoo kay

Total posts: 7330
Posted:very true miss star smile

mr geefe pretty much hints against vanessa ever behaving like a psycopath or serial liar so i think we can rule that out too.

i guess we will never really know what vanessa felt frown


"i see you at 'dis cafe.
i come to 'dis cafe quite a lot myself.
they do porridge."
- tim westwood

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Tao Star


Tao Star

Pooh-Bah
Location: Bristol

Total posts: 1662
Posted:well, i'm all for throwing love around madly and acting like you love EVERYONE!!!


YAY FOR LOVE!!!

the ubblove kiss ubblove kind and the hug beerchug hug kind.


I had a dream that my friend had a
strong-bad pop up book,
it was the book of my dreams.

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NYC


NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA

Total posts: 9232
Posted:Vanessa can do better.

I don't want anybody who's going to tell me that "I think" one thing but "actually" something else is true. This guy is so egocentric it's pathetic. I've had relationships with clinically depressed people and it's certainly not easy, but it doesn't mean that they are unlovable. Nor does it mean that they are incapable of being in a nurturing relationship.

"Truth" doesn't make love impossible. In fact, truth and love are the same thing. They both are interpreted by the brain, they both are subjective, they both are vague and yet specific.

I'd argue that you can't have love WITHOUT truth.

"Love of truth = death of love" implies that there is just one truth ... as well as just one type of love. "Truth" and "Love" are two of the most subjective and personal definitions that we can possibly comprehend.

RIchard is far too in love with himself and his own 'truth' to allow another to love him. Vanessa is better off without him. You go girl.


Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

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