Forums > Social Chat > "ONE SOLDIER DEAD, 11 WOUNDED"

Posted: 5th Apr 2002
I was waiting for a thread like this and actually wanted to start one
The situation is fukking terifying especially when your sister is currently living in Jerusalem and your first cousin is in the Israeli army and your best friend is being called up in a few months

The world is generally very anti-israel for a reason I cannot understand,,,the french prime minister is quoted to have said why all the fuss over some shitty little country like israel, but he doesnt realize that israel is the reason we Jews are around today
A reporter in France said that the Jews cause trouble wherever they go, but she forgets that in the past two weeks three synagogues in france have been burned down and two Jewish cemetaries defaced with swastikas and anti-israel slogans

The US is telling Israel to restrain in retaliation. this is the bigges tload of crap I have ever heard, Israel has had mor restraint than any other country. no other country would have a problem ridding itself of refugees, but Israel is viewed as evil if it even tries. What is happeng is worse than what happened on Sept. 11, 2000 people were killed on September 11th out of the huge population of the USA. over 200 have been killed in arab suicide attacks in israel out of a population of 4 million, less than the population of New York City. or Bush to tell Israel to constrain is purely hypocritical as he forgets that he just overthrew a government and killed hundres of thousands of people in his war on terrorism. His suggestion to israel is to gain arab favour so they will be his allies in his attack against Iraq. and lets not forget the favour the world needs from the arabs as they have the oil.

The palestinians kill civilians, randomly, saying their cause is more valuable than their lives, but the israeli army is targeting terrorists.

Now Im not saying that all palestinians are in the wrong. I know many arabs and am friendly with many. It is these arab fundamentalists who want to turn the world into a worldwide arab state who piss me off.

The world has such a negative view of israel and is more concerned for the 'plight of the poor palestinians' the same ones that are blowing themselves up for their 'holy' cause...
The girl who blew herself up last week, a 19 year old girl with straight A's in school, who was just a product of fundamentalist brainwashing

When you hear 19 wounded it doesnt mean they bled a lot. wounded can mean they lost a limb, they lost an eye or are a vegetable forever.
A friend of mine knows someone who was one of the 'injured' this boy of only 19 had a basketball carreer ahead of him. he required an amputation of his leg due to the blast. this is just an innocent 19 year old boy.

If anyone caught Yasser arafats speech on the news a few days ago, denial of his involvement with terrorism is unavoidable. he is quoted by saying "Martyrs by the millions goto jerusalem." The world should stop sympathising with these fundamentalist arabs, who are on the ame level as the much hated Osama bin Laden. What is the difference between the terrorists of Sept. 11th who died for the same cause as the terrorists in Israel? the only difference is Osama attacked the United states, and The other attacks are only caried out in, "The shitty little country of Israel"

I'm sorry I went on like this I just needed to vent about this, I am terrified every day for the life of my sister my cousin, and my best friend who will be joining the army in a few months...

[ 06 April 2002, 08:47: Message edited by: Organized Kaos ]

Every morning I wake up and hit the ground yawning...

Posted: 5th Apr 2002
Nasty.

*Doesn't know what else to say...*

Meh

Posted: 5th Apr 2002
I'm going to write a really, really, really long reply to this. Tomorrow. I think, understandably, your views are very one sided.

Personally, if I was a violent type, I'd be callng for for all your deaths, Israel and Palestine. As a peacenik, I call for both sides to stand down.

Till tomorrow....

Posted: 5th Apr 2002
This is my apporach as well
I dont deny that israel has done some wrong in its actions against the palestinians
But I do object to the fact that the palestinians have been the first to break every ceasefire

I would love both sides to stand down...and I believe arabs and jews can live in peace as they have done in the past...
looking forward to your post tomorrow

[ 06 April 2002, 08:59: Message edited by: Organized Kaos ]

Every morning I wake up and hit the ground yawning...

Posted: 5th Apr 2002
*wish that 1948 never happened.. can't beleive that this war has come all this way.. its so sad.

I dreamt that I ate a 10 pound marshmellow and then when I woke up, my pillow was gone!

Posted: 5th Apr 2002
I feel like humanity is lost on us. It hurts so bad inside to look at the triviality that all of us possess in great quantities.
I'm sorry your friend died. I'm sorry this war continues. I'm sorry for the pain you feel. I hope you can find meaning and purpose in life, somehow, someway, even though the people around you are bent on destruction. I hope you can forgive. Without forgiveness, life is nothing but hate...

But I do have to say: BE FAIR!!!
Tone

Posted: 5th Apr 2002
im going on and on again,
I understand how you can say our ideas are one sided.
True. If you were living here maybe it would be different for you. Every day to hear about at least one soldier that was killed. I have no idea how we keep sain. I guess it's part of reality.
I do not wish or even hint that all the palestinians are at wrong either.But this is no way to live. As kaos said the "wounded" there are so many it's hard to keep up. it's just so damn terrifying!!!
im looking at the news on the net (israeli) and thinking-shit!! im 18! Most of my friends are joining the army in less than 6 (!!!!) months.
I was at a friends house the other day and her mom was going on about how a friend of hers is going to use her german citizenship and she said that before 1938 (+-) nobody thought anything would happen-holocust (!!). She is afraid that again the world will stand by while the Jewish nation is erased. Actually that is the way it seems. Again i am one sided but Israel is standing alone. All the suicide attaks- we can't stand by and watch them go off. just three days ago one blew up in a resturant killing 15 and wounding many more.
Im probably sounding very dramatic but this pisses me off!! and as kaos said Israel has been trying. this trying has brought on so many deaths!!! i 2 wish we could live side by side but i guess that inorder for that to happen we need a seperation or what ever!!!
I think that it is a way to political war. most wars are but again- i stand by Kaos in his saying that bush is hypocritical. there is to this day no real seperation and that is one reason for so many suicide attaks.
in my perfect world we would all be sitting and drinking coffee together but this war has made me way to realistic and that's sad. i do think we should give peace a chance but uncoditional peace that is...
i went on and on again
waiting on that post...

[ 06 April 2002, 10:43: Message edited by: Acid ]

life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans John Lennon

Posted: 5th Apr 2002
I'm with acid all the way
and to say you wish 1948 never happened is not the way to look at it
You cant comment ons omething until you have wxperienced it yourself

I can say for myself and probably for acid too that you are misinterpreting what we are saying
WE DO NOT HAVE A PROBLEM WITH ALL ARABS AND PALESTINIANS!!!!!!
our problem is with the terrorists who do not want to see Israel in existence
These are the people like bin-laden who all share the same goal of worldwide state living under the rules of the Koran
In simpler words these arabs (not all) have a goal for world domination
They feel that their mission is more important than their lives and their prime enemies are Israel and the US.
Please do not misinterpret our words,,,but you cannot possible feel or comprehend the pain we feel after seeing what is happening to our people.

Every morning I wake up and hit the ground yawning...

Posted: 6th Apr 2002
*sigh*
If only the world could embrace the Tao............

Jesus helps me trick people.

Posted: 6th Apr 2002

Non-Https Image Link

Jesus helps me trick people.

Posted: 5th Apr 2002
That's got to be scary, I wish i could help you out in some way. My friend's older brother is with a militiant group in Iran right now, and she worries about him all the time. I'm not gonna say he's right or worng to be supporting teh group he does (the family is first generation from Iran, the brother went back to fight.) but whatever the case i see from them how hard it is to have family in the middle of a war. Next year a good friend, and another good friend's older sister are going to be in Israel (for about a year) and i am worried about them..... they havn't even left yet! I wish the best to you guys, and acid i hope that peace comes really soon.

Keep your dream alive
Dreamin is still how the strong survive

Shalom VeAhavah

New Hampshire has a point....

Posted: 6th Apr 2002
... there's nothing that I can really say... but an empty two word common saying... I'm sorry...

I can't hear you... I have a banana in my ear.

"You mean I'll have to use my brain?... but I use staff!!!" ~ ben-ja-men

Posted: 6th Apr 2002
First of all Acid, I want to hug you and tell you how my heart is with you. I really can't even begin to express my sorrow. I know how each bomb is for me another phone call to israel to make sure everyone is OK.

I am not willing to get into a discussion about the situation. Not on this board, not now. I am still stunned by what is going on and how difficult it is for me to even grasp what is going on.
Judging this,while i am seated in this comfortable seat in a safe (very much safer at least) country seems of very bad taste to me today. I am aching to understand this mess... but it will take me more time to try and think objectively and not with my heart and guts.
No ... I definitely cannot discuss that with a calm soul yet.. maybe Dom can ... I hope he does actually...
but at least let us try and BE AWARE of how biased most of us are because this is emotional...that is the first step in the right direction IMO.

One thing though, Organized Chaos , if you are gonna start making beleive that the french (media and leaders) are antisemites, I'm gonna have to disagree with you.
I read the papers and follow the news every day, And NEVER did Lionel Jospin, our Prime Minister, say that Israel is a "shitty little country". You know that no politician with some conscience would say that to the press, not even Le Pen, the neo nazi asshole who is the leader of the extreme right winger party. And NO journalist I've heard (and ,boy do I spend time reading and listening to the news) said any such stupid thing either.
There is enough antisemitism and antisionism (and these ARE two different things), please don't go adding some by saying stuff that are not true, please.
The situation in france is very touchy because the arab/muslim and the jewish communities are so big. What is happening to the synagoges tears my heart appart and makes me both scared and furious. BUT the only solution is to calm spirits down, not spread rumors.

Gosh as I am writing all that I can allready feel my throat aching (the "muaka"... reminds me of that song by Avtypus ...anyway...) and I know i am not going to be objective either cause when you are concerned by that and it touches you personnally too, how can you pretend you are being objective ? I can't...
but I am trying to let my heart calm down and let my brain try and understand... understand why my guts are torn apart between my love for that country and the so numerous people there, including a woman who is like my mother and some of my best friends ... and the feeling that Sharon is gonna push it so far there will be no turning back ...and that, no, the palestinians are not treated with humanity and respect either.

looking for that shine today
Cassandra

"I want brown bread... no, that is diesel oil..."
"So I was raised in Europe, where History comes from ..."
"NON !!! La Plume de mon oncle n est pas Bingibangibungi !!!"

Posted: 6th Apr 2002
Avtypus wow...
anyway in my post i haven't stated firmly enough that im not objective. i don't think Kaos is either. we are both talking i guess from our hearts and by no means am i even aiming for objectivness-it's not possible. im just writing how i feel and i guess Kaos is to. it's frustration and the fact that it's such a dead end at the moment that makes us sound like this. Again kaos i hope you're with me.
and i do agree- the palestinians aren't being treated with humanity. i'm not going to even get into that now.
just now i learned that that one soldier is now three...

[ 06 April 2002, 22:06: Message edited by: Acid ]

life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans John Lennon

Posted: 6th Apr 2002
thank you for understanding what i meant Acid.
I really feel for you and for anybody who loses loved ones...
neshikot
shine on
cassandra

"I want brown bread... no, that is diesel oil..."
"So I was raised in Europe, where History comes from ..."
"NON !!! La Plume de mon oncle n est pas Bingibangibungi !!!"

Posted: 6th Apr 2002
First I want to mirror what Cassandra has said. It's a tradgedy to lose people we know, like or love. On a national level we are pawns to what the powers that be command and certainly in your area of the world innocents are being hammered just for being one religion/race or another.

Having said that I would like to get you guys to imagine what it takes to decide you are going to strap explosives to yourself and go and blow yourself (and as many others as possible) up. I will NOT support this line of action but it is pretty obvious that there is some serious frustration brewing with your neighbours. I can't think of a more terrible way to commit suicide than blowing yourself apart. Seriously, imagine what experiences it would take to decide that that is your only course of action to make a point. Someone has to be SO despondant and unhappy with life to make that call. I find it depressing that somewhere there is someone feeling that bad whilst I play PS2, eat good food and live comfortably with my family.

From my (admittedly distant) perspective it seems important to remeber that Israel is involved in an illegal occupation of Palestinian territory. An action that is being let slide by the world when put alongside the response to the Kuwait invasion (amongst others).

Israel is also sending armed, trained military backed by tanks, helicopters and technology in against a country that is forbidden to have any weapons sold to it punishable by crippling sanctions. There is no legal way for Palestinians to aquire the weapons Israel can turn down let alone buy. So it becomes highly trained military (with tanks etc) attacking people throwing rocks and firing 20 year old guns.

Add to this that Palestinians get treated like second class citizens often being refused such things as medical assistance or education. All sounds reminiscent of a certain regime that was overthrown recently with the support of the whole world.

My point (and I do have one I think) is that in a land as battle scarred as yours it's a tradgedy that ANYONE has to die. KAOS maybe some of the things I've tried to outline are reasons countries like America tell Israel to exercise restraint. Not because they don't see what the suicide bombers do, heck it's all over our news reports too, but more because both side have faults and seem to be unable to show restraint. Perhaps the bigger kid with the bigger toys should make a solid attempt at playing nice.

Also I think the world has be very pro-Israel. Anti-semitism is viewed very harshly in every western country. After all your people have been through it is a serious feux pas (Cassandra, spelling?) to insult jewish people. Also to reiterate the fact that they are illegally occupying the West Bank and aren't having the wrath of NATO rained down upon them. I'm sure the palestinians would argue that no-one seems to listen when a child is killed by Israeli military bullets.

Again I get upset that any innocents get injured or killed. I feel for you losing friends and/or loved ones. In my country that happens very rarely under those kind of circumstances and I can't fathom the sorrow you must go through. This post has no intention of inflaming or insulting. Just present some valid points (unless Dom tears apart my points with logic and BBC new articles ) I know you guys are hurting.

Posted: 6th Apr 2002
avtipus...
i just heard the song you were talking about (on the radio) and i felt a kind of pang. the words don't realy relate but as you said "muaka" is the way it feels. you can't do anything so you're in a state of uneasyness and just stuck i guess.
Bezerker- im not going to point just at you but i do feel that the whole world is kind of narrow minded. i wouldn't say conspiracy but what the world news does to us is very very sad.
i was watching bbs world and suddenly there where tears in my eyes. the news talks about the palestinians and how they are holding up. that is sad - to see the poorness and the lack of options they have there. but you don't hear about the fact that now they are recruiting more suiciders. the news doesn't look into the families of jewish soldiers killed every day. this isn't one sided. they talk about israeli strategies when even the government here doesn't know what they are. when you say :"Perhaps the bigger kid with the bigger toys should make a solid attempt at playing nice." do you really think that israel hasn't tried? the fact that we take out the tanks doesn't stop the suicide attacks. it's like sitting and watching it happen and doing nothing.
there must be a better way than all this killing but as of now again i'd just like to say we are stuck.
it has been said all ready but still-if you haven't lived it you couldn't even begin to understand. the fact that the world news is very bias (?) isn't helping.

life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans John Lennon

Posted: 6th Apr 2002
Acid,

I won't pretend to know what it's like for you. I haven't lived in a place like your's where deaths are occuring almost (if not) daily from these terrifying events.

Again you're right, the media is shit-house at actual balanced reporting but from an outsider watching the same channels as you ie BBC world, CNN etc. I don't stand around thinking "Damn Israel for what they do. They are the ones causing this shit fight" It's an unfortunate situation where two opposing sides who are so passionate about their view that the entire environment is so charged with tension. So many people have died that any action that is percieved as aggresive can spark more violence.

If I spoke to a palestinian I'm sure they would say that they've tried to keep the peace but the Israelis keep moving military personnel in to our lands and killing our people.

This quote confused me a bit:
"She is afraid that again the world will stand by while the Jewish nation is erased. Actually that is the way it seems. Again i am one sided but Israel is standing alone."

Please correct me if I'm wrong but I was under the impression that the borders and country of Israel was helped strongly by the League of Nations/U.N. with support from a wide range of other nations. You would know your countries history better so please tell me if I'm misguided there. You just seem to think that Israel is all alone. I think if anything they face the same challenge as America. There are some factions who are really upset with them. They will try to eradicate the problem by capturing/killing the terrorists but it will only result in more hatred. I feel the same will happen to you guys.

What happened to the period with Bill Clinton acting as a mediator? Was it a case that the international media stopped covering the bombings etc. to make the talks look successful or was it actually working? (No sarcasm there, I'm genuinely curious)

I'll stop rambling, I'm not trying to persuade or argue with you. I'm just trying to get a better perspective of why your opinions are that the world is still persecuting/turning their backs on Israel.

.....patiently awaits Dom's essay......

Posted: 6th Apr 2002
Right, so here it goes. Long one, could keep going but I have a dinner date and I'm already late. Damn!

The Israel/Palestine situation is the most depressing and upsetting thing currently going on in the world. And it's pointless! For those who have read the Anti War thread you'll know that I mourn every lost life. As it stands Israel and Palestine are both murdering innocents, are both acting as terrorists and both need to be stopped.

If anything I think that there is more pro-Israel bias rather than against. Israel can easily be classified as a 'rogue' nation, similar in it's land grabbing and dehumanising tactics as countries such as Iraq. I think many in western politics Israel gets let off lightly due to guilt. After all Israel is a creation of the west, shunned by it's neighbours and most of the Jewish persecution has been in Europe.

The media around the world is often biased. However the reason that the focus is on the Palestinians is that they're the ones suffering most, and Israel is legally and morally in the wrong as a nation. And Israel holds all the power in the equation.

Bezerker made an excellent point. Acid, your life and security is upset by the actions of Palestinian terrorists. You never know when the next strike will be, or if you or your friends will die in it. However, on Friday night you were on your way out. To have fun no doubt. You have a comfortable home? Food on the table? Your parents have jobs? Probably the same for the majority of Israelis, yes? Your day was disturbed by 3 Israelis dying. Did the 13 year old Palestinian girl killed by Israeli bullets also disturb your night? 27 souls died, not just 3! Mourn them all.

Now put yourself into the mind of an 18 year old Palestinian guy right now. You father can't work because he works in construction in Israel. It was difficult enough to get to work before, but with a curfew in place, and tanks on the street there is now no income. The food your family can afford to buy is in short supply. You can't go out because chances are you'll end up in crossfire or be arrested, stripped naked, humiliated and interned in a camp. The small house you live in is not your home. You don't know a secure home because you live in a refuge camp, and it seems to you that the Israeli army randomly invades and bulldozes houses in the camp. Basically, life is shit. You have nothing to live for. So the opportunity to strike back at those who have put you in this situation looks very rewarding. This is the enemy you face, this is the enemy that is being created right now by the Israeli action. The action now might find and stop some terrorists, but it'll make more.

Israel and Palestine are locked in a vicious cycle of attack and retaliation and this is what produces terrorists. Apparently the majority of Israelis support an all out war against Palestine, but that's not going to stop suicide bombers because the war is what is creating them! If you can't see that military action in Palestine is futile then you haven't got your eyes open!

Israel is in the wrong. Simple fact. Over the years Israel has been effectively dehumanising the Palestinian people, humiliating them and turning them into a under-class. A lot of the tactics sounds pretty much like pre-war Nazi Germany to me. Israel has become what it sought to escape from.

Now Israel has once again gone against international advice and UN resolutions and occupied Palestinian territory. Not only that but it has purposefully made things harder for the innocents who live there. The Israeli army even stopped ambulances from being able to get around! And they shut off cities to international observers and journalists. The last people to do that were the Taliban.

Arial Sharon knows nothing but to fight for power. This was the guy behind the ill-fated 1982 invasion of Lebanon. Arial Sharon does not want peace with Palestine, he wants to destroy Palestine. And he sees destruction of his opponents as the only way to get peace.

His tactics have been to destroy Yasser Arafat's control over Palestine, by shutting him off, arresting the Palestinian police, destroying their infrastructure. But at the same time he's demanding he take control of the situation! Can you not see the irony in this? I see it as a deliberate attempt to break down what little organisation there is in Palestine. Arafat, like Sharon, may have numerous faults, he may have been responsible for murders, but he is the Palestinian leader, and has the following of Palestine. Without him you'd be left with a headless mass of militant groups fighting Israel to the end.

Personally I'd worry about Israel and Palestine being wiped out if this action continues. If other Arab countries don't step in then Palestine will be reduced to nothing, and if they do Israel will be severly affected, but international help will come for Israel.

Israel has the power in this situation. The power to persue this pointless and endless war, which will further destabilise the whole region and bring other Arab countries into the war. Or it has the power to stop, withdraw it's army and work with the plans put together recently.

Ideally I'd like to see full withdrawal from all occupied territories, the borders of Israel and Palestine turned over to UN peacekeepers, and the acknowledgement and respect for the Palestinian state by Israel.

You can see this a battle between 2 sides with one winner, or you can see this as a problem to be solved by both sides, to the benefit of both side.

Until then nothing's going to stop the possibility of you or your family getting killed tomorrow.

Thanks for reading.
Peace All.
Dom

Posted: 6th Apr 2002
Bezerker- the world standing by...
it really feels as though the world is standing a said.the woman that said that has had her family lost i think in the holocust... the u.n... well i wouldn't count on that to much.
leaving my comfortable home... well yes i see your point. but as this happens everyday my friends and i try on friday night to do something that will take our minds away from the war and as i don't use drugs (pun) that is our only option. this friday as i said i just couldn't go out.
did you know that it is so frightening out there that Tel Aviv (the place where all the "scene" is) is quit desserted? people don't feel safe anymore. resturants must have an armoured gaurd at the door those who don't are closed and to those that are open it takes "guts" to go as it means risking your life. i do mourn the lives of the innocent civilians on BOTH sides. and until a while ago i tried looking at the whole thing from an objectiv eye but i just can't anymore.
"Apparently the majority of Israelis support an all out war against Palestine," the majority is not pro-war!!! not most want to wipe out the palestinians. we just want to live in peace.
it seems as though whenever israel does something against the terror everyone starts shouting that it is hurting the palestines although the actions the government takes are a re-action to the terror. this is a war against terror. the whole world is object to it.

[ 07 April 2002, 06:47: Message edited by: Acid ]

life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans John Lennon

Posted: 6th Apr 2002
i would just like to say that i do not like what ariel sharon is doing. as a matter of fact i object to his even being in the government let alone the prime minister...
i condamn his tactics but i would like you to realize that israel has gotten to a point that it cannot let these terrorist acts go on. and yes probably more will come. both sides are frustrated...

life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans John Lennon

Posted: 6th Apr 2002
Remember him and dont be sad, celebrate his life, and dont let his death be in vain. I've buried several of my freinds, and their deaths were meaningless, in a self inflicted kind of way. My thoughts are with you. light blessings

Posted: 6th Apr 2002
this is my first post in the board eve though im reading it for quite some time and its really sad that this is the subjet in wich i post...but after reading it it urged me to speak my mind.

I am an Israel living and born in ecuador (my parents and brothers are from there) i too have familly there, and im currently planning to go live in israel this year. So i too feel the pain everyday, sit watching cnn and thinking should i go?? This i tell u for some bkground, i must admit that my view isnt purely objective but i try to be.

I think much of the problem (if not all) about peoples opinion on the situation is that people tend to forget. The suicide bombings are not new in our country, so i think its wrong to say that war is what causes them. Suicide bombings are a cause of fundamentalist brainwash. I am aware about the terrible situation of the palestinian way of ilving...but this is not the main reason for bombings. Just remeber that sept. 11 was also caused by suicide attack. There are a lot of points in this board tha i wish i could respond to (without intencion of flaming or attacking) but there is too much to say. what i can say is that i long for peace and i believe in it, and somehow it makemehappy that the messages here are all for us to learn more, not in a close-minded and hatefull fashion.

I invite all of us to learn as much as we can about the situation. Look at the big picture, not only the biased day to day news but the learning more about the history. If we all understand more, we all can help in a way to stop the killings.

peace

Posted: 6th Apr 2002
I apologize for not keeping up to date with the thread but i was unable to use my computr for the past two days
I agree with Acid, and Cassandra, my apologies if I hurt you with my remarks about francees position, but what I said about France was something I read in the paper.

And once agoing Im with acid all the way
I disagree with the idea of Arafats Isolation, an army general should not be allowed as a prime minister...The only peace method he understands is war. I object to the use of fighting as a method of peacekeeping (on both sides)

Dom-just because the Palestinians are the weaker nation does not justify their actions...

if I offended anyone with my posts I apologize as I was speaking from my heart at a time of frustration and pain.
My apologies to all I may have offended

"Lo Yisa Goi el goi cherev v'lo yihiyu od milchama"
"No nation shall lift a sword against another nation, and let there never be another war"

[ 07 April 2002, 14:29: Message edited by: Organized Kaos ]

Every morning I wake up and hit the ground yawning...

Posted: 6th Apr 2002
I totally agree with you Acid, my husband is Israeli, we wake up and go to sleep with the news...my brother lives in Jerusalem...We want to raise our children in Israel one day.
I agree that the situation is out of control on both sides, but when one side only wants to live in replacement of the other, how is it not a war for survival? I think people shouldn't judge soo much they never experienced.
It's just soo sad...all of it...

Posted: 9th Apr 2002
Hi,

Sometimes I think that discussion groups are not for this type of thing. There are too many opinions in the world that can hate, judge and torment, some of which may appear on this board.

Personally, i think (and no offence to anyone so dont hit me!) that people get caught up in the politics and forget about the individuals invovled. Yes so the leaders of Isreal decided this and yes, the leaders of Palestine decided this but what did the PEOPLE of these countries decide?

Did they agree to opress citizens, humiliate them or elevate them? Very probably not. Or at least not consciously, but potentially swept away by social norm.

Maybe I'm talking bollocks now, but everyone STOP blaming. Take some godamn responsability for whats happened and APOLOGISE! I know its not as simple as that but something must be done before more people die.

I dont care at all where these people come from, just that they are dying because of someone elses decision.

Its shit and I'm sorry but its going to be a long time before its sorted, if ever (remembering that the Jihadd began in 1097 for fucks sake)and we need to get all this anger away from the general public.

Stop it!
it wont ever be some folk song where we all live happily ever after but at least we can try to live blameless.

Sorry for the rant, maybe its all the apple juice... and the dizziness... argh...

love, laughter & hope

vic xx

ex-hop-aholic, now inconsistent lurker...

Posted: 9th Apr 2002
Ummm....maybe you didnt read this but the whole cause of this thread being started and all of our arguments are based on the frustration of people dying and nothing being done to stop it...This kind of subject leads to politics always because the only way to stop it is through politics, as sadly, only politicianns can express the citizens ideas...

Every morning I wake up and hit the ground yawning...

Posted: 9th Apr 2002
i did mention that i was probably talking bollocks though lol

vic xx

ex-hop-aholic, now inconsistent lurker...

Posted: 9th Apr 2002
Been busy, so not enough time spent on this board, shame.

I think we're all speaking the same message here.

Someone reminded me recently that I'd said on the anti-war thread "this isn't the place for this discussion" and I think I was wrong. This is the perfect place because we've a wide range of people, most of whom seem to be calm and reasonable people capable of having an intelligent argument. And you can easily opt out of the discussion if you want to.

Kaos - never said anything about me trying to justify actions. I can see the reasons, and I can see how they justify it to themselves, and that's all part of trying to see both sides. Suicide bombers are a result of brainwashing, but something needs to make them susceptible to that brainwashing, and in Palestine that something is their treatment by Israel. Vicious circle in action once again.

Lets hope peace reigns soon.

Posted: 9th Apr 2002
"-Someone reminded me recently that I'd said on the anti-war thread "this isn't the place for this discussion" and I think I was wrong. This is the perfect place because we've a wide range of people, most of whom seem to be calm and reasonable people capable of having an intelligent argument. And you can easily opt out of the discussion if you want to.-"
Dom, i totaly agree with you. the reason i started this post was because i think highly of people here on the site. i wanted to see what others think and start some sort of talk. i wanted also some sort of "outer" input on how others see the situation here.

life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans John Lennon