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Forums > Social Chat > "ONE SOLDIER DEAD, 11 WOUNDED"

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Acid
member
Location: Israel
Member Since: 29th Jul 2001
Total posts: 110
Posted:Might be long...

Imagine one of those fridays when you're all worked up about going out.
Before dinner someone tells you that a soldier has been killed. As you live where this happens everyday (Israel) it just goes in one ear and out the other. Pretty freaky i guess. But as you learn the name of the soldier you realize it's not just another name to you. This person went to the same school as you. He went out with a one of your friends. He's only 19!!!!!!!
You fucking know his name!!!!! Even though it takes some time you do get it, you don't want to go out anymore and you understand that what's going on out there is real. Not some nightmare. Those kids being killed aren't anonymous anymore.
All this happened to me about 30 min' ago...
I can't even start trying to explain what all this is like, you wake up everyday with headlines such as "4 soldiers killed", "5 wounded".
I can't make any sense of this.
Why is this shit happening??!!!!

[ 07 April 2002, 04:19: Message edited by: Acid ]


life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans John Lennon

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Organized Kaos
member
Location: Thornhill, Ontario Canada
Member Since: 20th Dec 2001
Total posts: 238
Posted:mmmmhmmm...interesting...
so far Iv been told to bend over and take it in the ass,,,told that the white mans my Jesus christ and asked who Im going to heil next...mm mmm...nuthing like sum one sided anti-semitic comments to make your day...
Im not here to argue with you over who does more, you can go to your little candle lighting ceremonies, but obviously im not as rightcheous as you...You know, cuz I came up with an idea that my grade doesnt wear graduation gowns and insted donates money to the Israeli red cross (magen david adom) and hey, Im going to ottawa on sunday to rally support...
Ive been on this thread for awhile and im told Im a one sided Jew...but the fukkin anti-semites like its gottabe or toneman, their not one-sided, oh no, their just standing up for what they beleive in

Hey Dom- Civilian casualties in a war are unavoidable and unjustafiable...but they happen, are you having rememberance days for innocent people who died in your country?
Israel being the Jewish homeland? In iraels decleration of Independance it says its a country for the Jews, as we had nowhere else to go after 6 million of us were slaughtered in the Nazi death camps...I lived there for 6 months, my cousins in the army, my sisters there right now...and you know what, to me it is my homeland,,,I have a stronger connection with Israel than any other country, even canada. dont comment on homelands unless youre in my position

ummm....hold on, after every ceacefire, after every agreement, who broke it first? We both know the answer...

I dont know if you watched 20/20 last week but barbara walters went to saudi arabia and interviewed arab children . Whose responsible for september 11th? The jews, Whose responsible for communism? The Jews, and then she read a childrens book. There was a tree talking to an arab child you know what it said "Theres a Jew behind me, I'll move and you kill him." Theres something called conditioning from birth...so once again my dear friend Dom- dont comment until YOU get the basic understanding of whats going on and YOU open your eyes...

I am not here to comment on any of Sharons actions either as I do not agree with many of them...ive said many times, that I am against the suicide bombers who are there to destroy Israel. you are all missing that the central goal of these groups, as they have declared many times is not to end the oppression of palestinians as you have said, they have declared that they do not feel Israel has the right to exist!!!

And as for MY one sided view, you havent been so two sided yourself.
I never justified the killing of civilians, and in fact condemned them but all of you are too busy being concerned with your opinions and so set in your idea and the influence of the media on yourselves, you probably havent read a fukking word me and Acid are saying...

Im sorry for this bitterness, but Ive been on this thread for awhile and all Ive gotten is rude comments, and racist remarks about me and my religion, Ive tried my best to be non-offensive, but all I can say is fukkit. I once thought this website was a friendly one, where eveyone took others religions and feelings into account...maybe I have said some contraversial things, but it is a contraversial topic everyone is entitled to their own opinion and although i have disagreed, I have respected those opinions. However, the remarks I have recieved in return for my opinion, from some (namely itsgottabe and toneman), rather than arguments, are purely racist insults. They are not opinion on a topic but rather put downs. These type of remarks are immature, insulting, and uncalled for. It reflects the personality of many of the people registered on HoP so all Im gonna say is that Im done with this website...I'm out for good...

[ 22 April 2002, 03:06: Message edited by: Organized Kaos ]


Every morning I wake up and hit the ground yawning...

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toneman
member

Member Since: 18th Oct 2001
Total posts: 195
Posted:It's easier to change someone's opinion with evidence, rather than just stating why you're right. I apologize if I offended you with the "Heil" remark, it was insensitive and unthoughtful, however, the point I was trying to make behind it still stands.
Murder is wrong. Isreal is wrong.

Maybe I'm only seeing one side of the story from the media, but it sure does seem that every other nation thinks Isreal is breaking international law.

If Isreal is surrounded by a bunch of countries that hate them and wish to see them not exist and are using the Palestinian conflict as their excuse... why not stand down and take away their reasons for hating? It would be a much clearer picture if Isreal didn't murder innocent/repressed people.


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Cassandra
Cassandra

Froggie ... Ribbit !!!
Location: Back in Paris... for now !
Member Since: 8th Jun 2001
Total posts: 4224
Posted:I've been reading this thread very carefully and i've been angry, hurt, sad, stunned many times but I decided i did not want to enter those discussions because this is sucha sensitive subject for me and because I knew it'd become .... a bit crazy as it is now. But OK's last post just makes me feel the urge to say something.

OKaos, I don't agree with some thigns you say on this thread and I'll get back to it later but the first thing I want to tell you is that I understand why you got hurt and I am sorry that such remarks were made. When I read such remarks, my heart is bleeding.

I beleive you can laugh about everything, even the shoah, but NOT with everyone, and NOT on a BB like that because you cannot be sure who is in front of you. the most anti-semitic jokes heard were made by jews amongst them, but we'd never joke like that with random people on the street. the difference between a jewish joke and an antisemitic joke / remark is sometimes simply WHO says it.

The Shoah is an event that I cannot even begin to grasp intellectually. I read and watch films and talk with some of my older friends that are holocaust survivors. One of my dearest friends is a 70yo man who who survived tortures by the angel of death, Dr Mengele and I've dfesperately tried to understand with him WHY ? yes, it is history but NO, it is not just "the past" ... it is something that we must not forget, and that I so wish we'd learn from.

Do we learn from history ? I am affraid not... but I so wish we did... because we would not really be where we are in the world right now.

itsgottab I ... still so regret that you can't respect people enough to understand that it IS important the way you word things, JUST as important as what you say because we are on an internet BB and what we write is pretty much all people get from us, no smile or eye contact to convey milder feelingS...

toneman ... (editing that bit) thank you for editing your post .

Organised Kaos... israel as I see it is not only a country of the jews... there are the Druzim, arabs too... they all have the israeli passport and We definitely need to not forget them when we think of israel. let's not forget that ...

And please everyone, don't forget the difference between ANTI SEMITE and ANTIZIONIST ?????????
one is based on the religion and the otehr is based on a state. True that the links between the Diaspora and Israel are strong, HOWEVER, these are two different things and if noone makes that difference, people will still be beating up kids in synagogues in france for what Sharon does ... and that is not fair.

I am not really entering the debate here...

One last thing : it is sad that pain and anger would make someone like OKaos leave the board.
But then again, if you truely think that :
quote
"These type of remarks are immature, insulting, and uncalled for. It reflects the personality of many of the people registered on HoP so all Im gonna say is that Im done with this website...I'm out for good..."
then I think you are very wrong. there are different personnalities, different profiles but I do want to defend the people here who are articulate and often very open people...

shine on
cassandra

[ 22 April 2002, 04:42: Message edited by: Cassandra ]


"I want brown bread... no, that is diesel oil..."
"So I was raised in Europe, where History comes from ..."
"NON !!! La Plume de mon oncle n est pas Bingibangibungi !!!"

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Dom
Dom

Carpal \'Tunnel
Location: Bristol, UK
Member Since: 19th Dec 2001
Total posts: 3009
Posted:Cass, welcome to the discussion. Your words are always welcome.

Koas, in life you're going to get people like itsgottab who are wind up merchants and you can't just walk away from wherever they are. You have to stand up to them (usually pointless) or ignore them. You probably know that I don't agree with how itsgottab comes across. But you can't have a public discussion then run away when it doesn't all go your way or it gets more intense than flirting. If you really do leave the BB because you've encountered people you don't like or agree with then maybe we really haven't lost much, however I'd like to think otherwise.

If civilian casualties in a war are unavoidable and unjustifiable then why fight a war? Why fight a war in a way which affects even more civilians?

Anti-Jewish conditioning happens. A large part of why is because of Israel's continuing actions against Arabs. However I could also find you kids in the US bought up on anti black or gay books. They do exist. I can also go to Saudi, or Palestine, and find you Arabs who have Jewish friends and who believe Israel has the right to exist. Not every Arab and Palestinian wants all Jews dead. Did 20/20 also interview Arabs who supported Israel? I somehow think not because the story wouldn't have been as 'hard-hitting'.

Israel's problem is that it's a Jewish country and as such it's actions reflect on every Jewish person. And its reputation is getting worse, which you really should care about. A country based on religion is always a terrible idea. The people in charge of Israel are politicians, not priests. As politicians they should care nothing for what religion or race their citizens are.

Personally, I care nothing for what religion or race you or those who died are. It doesn't matter what happened in the past because that excuses nothing. I judge on what people say and do now because now can be where the future is born instead of aborted.


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Organized Kaos
member
Location: Thornhill, Ontario Canada
Member Since: 20th Dec 2001
Total posts: 238
Posted:Alrite, so I came back and read the replies thanks to Kyrian and Acids Advice...and I appreciate your taking that out of your post toneman, Ill take my reply to your comment out too...
Alrite so let me explain myself, When I said Israel was created for the Jews, it was not to say noone else can live there, It was simply acounterargument to Dom saying it wasnt my homeland.
Cass...I'd like to hear more of what you have to say,,,dont be shy to post here...

Dom- Yore too much of an Idealist, you cant ask why fight a war, sadly, war is inevitable as it is in human nature...
true brainwashing does exist in all parts of the world, but that still doesnt justify it...True, the 20/20 might have been bias in its words, to make it more dramatic, but then that further proves that most media is bias to one side in order to make the situation more dramatic, and if all everyone is seeing is the Israeli tanks, it proves a bias against israel...

So thats what I have to say, hopefully we can keep this thread running peacefully, and peace will be restored in the middle east as well

oh yah
and HAPPY BIRTHDAY ISRAEL!!!!!
Acid and Kyrian- thanx for convincing me to come back, and to read the posts its a load off my mind,,,


Every morning I wake up and hit the ground yawning...

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Organized Kaos
member
Location: Thornhill, Ontario Canada
Member Since: 20th Dec 2001
Total posts: 238
Posted:heres a website I found with pictures of Jenin...I know in the media you hear about the atrocities in the camp and hear it as if it is the whole camp that has been destroyed,,,these pics will hep put it in perspective for you...

Jenin refugee camp pictures

and that is the damage done to the refugge camp, not that it's justified, just pointing out an exaggeration of the media saying that most of the camp was destroyed...
please note the intact houses next to the damaged ones...


Every morning I wake up and hit the ground yawning...

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Acid
member
Location: Israel
Member Since: 29th Jul 2001
Total posts: 110
Posted:Kaos. im sooo happy you decided to stay.

im gonna comment on something kinda old-when someone says "oh there have been 2 suicide attacks even though Israel is in Jenin or anywhere else" and think that it's not helping having the troops there you have to remember-before the soldiers went in there were days, not weeks, days (!!) when AT LEAST 2 suicide attacks took place.
think about it.


life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans John Lennon

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Organized Kaos
member
Location: Thornhill, Ontario Canada
Member Since: 20th Dec 2001
Total posts: 238
Posted:Alrite, Im sorry to have to revive this thread, but I want to inform everyone of the latest suicide attack in israel which happened a couple of hours ago, at a pool hall in Rishon Letzion...16 people are dead, and 45 are wounded,

So now I ask all of you, who were so concerned with the Israelis latest occupation of Jenin and Ramallah among other refugee camps...Israel just withdrew from all of the places which they had blocked off in order to prevent terrorist attacks, Their so called occupation of arab territory has ended, The seige of Arafats compound has ended,,,and two days later...16 are dead,,,and 45 are wounded,,,
explain the logic...
please justify this to me, explain how this is the work of an opressed people rather than that of a bloodthirsty terrorist movement


Every morning I wake up and hit the ground yawning...

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Kali
member
Location: Berlin, Germany
Member Since: 29th Apr 2002
Total posts: 577
Posted:Organized Kaos, I'm going to jump in here for just a bit and say this is the work of a sick *person* that is part of a movement that has the same justifications and brainwashing tactics as any other militant, prejudice movement like the KKK, the nazis, etc.

Whats going on now breaks my heart like so many others. My grandfather and gramdmother along with my great aunts and uncles were in the Ben Lechi and the Hagannah (please excuse me if I totally bastardized the spelling on that) and it hurts so much to know that after all they did and sacrificed for what they thought was right, there is still so much pain and suffering. They brought my father and his brothers here because they felt that they had sacrificed enough for that country and didn't need to add their sons to the list. I see my dad's side of the family and how much they want a place where they feel that they can be who they are, but I think in the process they and a lot of other people forget that we're all human. There is no division. No matter what color, sex. creed, whatever you are we're all just red inside. To paraphrase the Tao Te Ching, every victory should also be mourned as a death in the family because for someone somewhere, it is.

I don't really know where I'm going with this post or if I can even have a point to it because like all senseless acts of violence, there is no point to what's going on in Israel/Palestine, so how can I have one when discussing it? As a pacifist, I can't condone what's going on there for any reason - even though I fear for the safety of my family members that are all over the country and wish that there would be some resolution. Again, I really feel for everyone there that's afraid to go outside, that's suffering and scared and feeling its all hopeless. I'm also really sorry for the whole world that we just don't seem to be making any progress in the twenty-first century.

Love, light, and healing to you all.


Beauty is the conscious sum of all our perversions.-Salvador DaliHope without action is hopeless.

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Raymund Phule (Fireproof)
Raymund Phule (Fireproof)

Enter a "Title" here:
Location: San Diego California
Member Since: 31st Dec 2001
Total posts: 2905
Posted:The very first thing that you must know is... Don't listen to Itsgottab!! He is famus on this board for starting shit or keeping it going! Secondly, the story about the Americans takeing land from the Natives is well... old. It is still reported on but it does not make world wide news. Comming from the state of New Mexico I still hear alot about that debate. Now you also have to think about how the Spanish came in and jacked up all of South America or how the French slapped natives silly in Northern America and Canada! Your situation is so fucked up it is not even funny. I dont know if either of you are right. Historically the Jews lived in that land but recently the Palistinians lived there. You want the cold hearted truth? The Palistine are Jews who have turned their backs on God and chosen to believe otherwise. The Jews never left they just changed their minds. You both have the right to live there and you both need to take a page out of your own scriptures and stop killing eachother. It is just retarded to kill someone because they dont believe in the same god. How does that help you convert them or show them the way. Your children dont even know why you fight, they dont know why they hate the other side they just know that their parents do so they should too! That sounds alot like America in the 50's and 60's. White children hated black children and vice-versa. The only reason that I can come up with is that the other skin color was different. How stupid is that? They dont believe in the same god, so lets kill them. How stupid is that?

The whole damn world needs to just grow up!


Some Jarhead last night: "this dumb a$$ thinks hes fireproof"

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toneman
member

Member Since: 18th Oct 2001
Total posts: 195
Posted:I do have to say that it pained me to read your response, and made me realize just how touchy the subject is. I am definitely with the "why can't we all just get a bong, I mean, get along" clan. Again, I apologize if I offended you.

I have been struggling with the whole murder/killing concept. To me, One is one too many, however, I'm divided on whether or not I would protect myself if my house was sieged. I'm trying to grow up and believe that this world is so temporary to why even bother doing something so heinous just to stay a few more years. We all go sometime, it's just a matter of when. I truly believe it's better to rejoin god/universe/mother earth/universal power without having committed violence against someone else.

However, I totally hate seeing someone get picked on, which is how I view the I/P conflict. These suicide bombings wouldn't happen if the Palestinians had guns to use. It would be a more conventional war (not that it's acceptable). I see the US's military might (Isreal) attacking mostly defenseless people. I see a country breaking the law for decades and no-one calling them on it. I see people getting shot for throwing rocks. It's this gross response that really upsets me.

Isreal, on one hand wishes to have peace, however, how can they if they are occupying someone else's land? They are paying people to live in these settlements. The palestenians are seeing their land being chipped away wrongfully and no one will help them. Isreal is claiming the same thing. They have the attitude that if they give back a little land, they're going to have to give up their whole country.

My point is this: If Isreal would abide by the contracts it signed with the Palestinians, move out of the settlements, and work for peace, instead of grinding salt in open wounds, they would, more than likely be seen as being justified in attacking to protect their country fi the Palestinians continue their course. But that's just not the case.
To me, they look like the bully holding up Palestinians land just out of their grasp asking "what are you gonna do about it?" while the world stand around the two waiting for a fight.
Times change. Things that are okay today, will not be okay tomorrow. The world seems to be headed towards a political war, rather than physical war in the future because people recognize the value of negotiation. Both sides must give up demands in order to acheive peace. It CANNOT come from just one side. Like the old expression goes, "it takes two to tango"

I'm glad you have decided to come back. It's so easy to mis-interpret (or mis-communicate)writing, especially when it's such a charged topic. You just don't get all the other forms of communication with writing that you do with conversation.

peace
it's all good (somewhere)


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lolli
purple penguin- soon to be
Location: playing with the pixies at the...
Member Since: 9th May 2002
Total posts: 478
Posted:its such a horrible thing to happen, to realise that such things are always persieved as "happens to someone else", until it happens to you, or someone you know. i have had a couple of freinds go into the israeli army after finishing their a levels. one never came back, he was killed. its horrible, all you can think of is the last time you saw them, remebered them, even if you werent that close. the history of israel and the surrounding arab lands is very long and intracate. israel offers up half of jeruselem, 80% of the proposed agreement to settle the peace agreement and they still said no. sharon isnt a politician, hes a military man, everyone (out of israel) expects him to be more like rabyn, a diplomat. the media propaganda is very against him and i dont feel that helps with the situation. im not condoning israels actions, but i think theres so much more to think about, then the menial picture we're given to believe.


My spelling wobbles. its very good spelling but it wobbles, and the letters get in the wrong place

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Organized Kaos
member
Location: Thornhill, Ontario Canada
Member Since: 20th Dec 2001
Total posts: 238
Posted:This situation is a tough one, but toneman, I'm glad that at least we are at peace...

and Lolli, Im gonna have to corect you on one thing, Israel did not offer 80% of what Arafat wanted they offered 97% of what he actually requested, the final three percent was for the remaining parts of Jerusalem not in the hands of the palestinians, instead, it was suggested that he could have his three percent to make the full 100% of the land somewhere else...However, this was not good enough for Arafat, he walked away and intensified the Intifada...
Toneman, Israel does give away land, but it doesnt want to for a few reasons
1) look at its size, Israel is tiny, giving away land decreases israels already tiny size and puts it in a terrible defensive position in the wakre of a likely attack
2) Land has been given away for peace, but no result has been seen at the hands of Arafat, no return of land has ever yeilded a decrease in suicide attacks...

Also I did a little research on the history of Israel, Ill say it as short as I can...
Post world war two the entire middle east belonged to Britain and they decided they wanted to split it up into sections and appointed different leaders as the heads, Hussein in Jordan, a king for saudi arabia etc. however, the one place it kept was Palestine, due to its strategic positioning...
It was called Palestine not for its inhabitants, however, for this reason: When the Jews were exiled by the Romans the Romans called Israel Palestine to mock the Jews, as one of the Jews greatest enemies were the Philistines (Plishtim in hebrew)
The Philistines were not arabs or muslims, in fact the Philistines were around before the muslim religion started...

Anywayz, so when the need for a Jewish state arose, Britain decided to give them Palestine, which they named Israel in 1948, in which both arabs and Jews could live together as citizens of israel. right after the state was formed, the arab nations attacked it during the 'War of Independance' Israel won and many Palestinians as they were now called, who were involved with the arab nations in attacking israel, fled to Jordan...

In 1967 the arab nations attacked Israel yet again, this time Israel won, and took land from Jordan, Syria and Egypt. (Egypts land has been returned fully and the west bank from Jordan is a different story)

Now Jordan had a problem it had so many terrorists and soldiers who fled after the war and so little land what did they do?
In sept. 1973 They started a massive 'war on terrorism' of their own in which they killed thousands of terrorists who came there after the war (the terrorist movement black september, responsible for the killing of israeli athletes at the munich olympics arose from this attack)

These terrorists fled as refugees from Jordan to Israel, Israel didnt want them as they were known terrorists, so they decided to give land back to the PLO (not Jordan) and let the refugees live there...

This land that arafat is claiming is his, is not his, it is Jordans, a nation which is currently at peace with Israel...
The refugees who originally arrived at the refugee camps, were known terrorists and war criminals who fled to Israel.

and that is my many cents on the history of Israel


Every morning I wake up and hit the ground yawning...

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bender
still can't believe it's not butter
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Member Since: 14th Nov 2001
Total posts: 6979
Posted:I wanna keep this short cus I am too far removed from the day-to-day experience of life in Isreal+the occupied territories, but thanks heaps Organised Kaos for filling in the blanks on the issue can you point to any URLs that have broad overviews of history/politics in the region? Most material i find is on 1967 or Oslo's failure. For someone who's at the opposite side of the globe, these Troubles really depress me - that pool hall massacre is too horrible for words and it worries me that Sharon's agressive tendencies does not squander what moral high ground I believe Isreal has.

/Thinks happy thoughts...


Laugh Often, Smile Much, Post lolcats Always

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Kyrian
Dreamer
Location: York, England
Member Since: 15th Mar 2002
Total posts: 4308
Posted:attitude is against sharon? here in the states it's all pro-sharob or neautral, at least public news is. the goverment (ok, the bush's part) also seems very pro-sharon....

which i can't really condone... pro-israel != pro-sharon really...


Keep your dream alive
Dreamin is still how the strong survive

Shalom VeAhavah

New Hampshire has a point....

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Organized Kaos
member
Location: Thornhill, Ontario Canada
Member Since: 20th Dec 2001
Total posts: 238
Posted:Sorry Kyrian
Im gonna have to disagree even tho I luv you, Im hardcore pro Israel, but Im nt necessarily backing Sharons policies,,,although sometimes it seems like the only way...

Just something to ponder...
After Israel entered Jenin Kofi annan called it a massacre and called for investigations...hmmm...never heard him call any suicide bombings where more civilians have been killed in total than in Jenin a Massacre...and wheres the investigations into those??...
Just a thought,,,carry on


Every morning I wake up and hit the ground yawning...

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lolli
purple penguin- soon to be
Location: playing with the pixies at the...
Member Since: 9th May 2002
Total posts: 478
Posted:organised kaos, sorry i got it wrong, the point still stands that the offer was there and it was denied


My spelling wobbles. its very good spelling but it wobbles, and the letters get in the wrong place

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lolli
purple penguin- soon to be
Location: playing with the pixies at the...
Member Since: 9th May 2002
Total posts: 478
Posted:kyrian also i disagree, i dont think that the views on sharon are neutral at all. i think there is definatly media propaganda against him


My spelling wobbles. its very good spelling but it wobbles, and the letters get in the wrong place

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Kyrian
Dreamer
Location: York, England
Member Since: 15th Mar 2002
Total posts: 4308
Posted:it might well be so where you are, or on the web. or whatever. i was trying to say that in the states we don't hear much against him. in fact, very very little. kaos hun we can agree to disagree. i don't like what sharon is doing and so can't back him. i think the plo is not fighting at all the right war tho.... ick i hate war.

i wanna go hide under a blanket till all this is over two friends moving to israel this summer...


Keep your dream alive
Dreamin is still how the strong survive

Shalom VeAhavah

New Hampshire has a point....

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Kyrian
Dreamer
Location: York, England
Member Since: 15th Mar 2002
Total posts: 4308
Posted:oops i really did screw up and forgot to put "in the states" in teh original post.... agh.

sorry.


Keep your dream alive
Dreamin is still how the strong survive

Shalom VeAhavah

New Hampshire has a point....

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